Author Topic: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council  (Read 126109 times)

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2008, 12:52:01 am »
I have a hard time understanding the hostility people some people seem to have towards the information that is provided on this message board. Especially when it is people who seem to care about maintaining the traditions in a good way.

There has been a few instances where I have seen people anonymously post personal experiences that may or may not be true. I can see where it is tough to know what is the right thing to do about these sort of reports, when there is so much abuse happening and vulnerable people could be seriously hurt , and people often honestly feel scared of retaliation if they warn people about a bad experience.  I think the moderators here have a really difficult job...

I agree what is posted on any message board in cyberspace needs to be critically evaluated, but I think most people know this and take what they read on a message board written by an anonymous person with a grain of salt.  If something is alleged about someone which has no truth in it, I think most people will trust their own experience with a person over one or two anonymous posts on a message board. Peoples reactions to this situation are a good example of that.

A while back a thread was started to discuss some of these hostile feelings - though that thread was more geared towards people who support exploiters, than this situation;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1267.0

If people want to discuss how things are done here, maybe that thread, or a new one, would be a place to talk about it...

I think most of the people who post here really try to make sure what is said is fair and accurate.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 12:53:57 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline lrc15

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2008, 03:05:48 am »
My friend David Hill (Choctaw) and from Oklahoma, asked me to post this for him since he does not have internet access:


Dear Dani and webmaster:

I am responding as a person who has read your dissertation about Ben Carnes, and I assume you put it out there to get a response.  Categorically speaking Dani, if you did some research about Choctaws or read some of the accounts of the old missionaries, the Choctaws did Sundance.  Furthermore, because of the disruption of our culture and individual Nations, Indian people have been relocated and scattered throughout America.  And, in our endeavors to survive, we have blended many of our truths that were usually kept to ourselves.  Since we had a common enemy, we used common solutions.  Indian People have always sought to use whatever we found to be truth.  Some of those truths came from other cultures or other parts of the world and in many cases, were validated by our own experiences.  Some, have even adopted other religions or traditions such as Christianity, albeit they are not themselves Jewish, Hebrew, or Israeli.  That does not make them phonies but does allow them to share truths that improve the quality of their life. 

In reference to Ben being a Chief, traditionally and historically, a chief among Indian People was a leader.  They manifested themselves by their leadership and service to the People.  They did not have the power to tell anyone to do anything other than perhaps in dealing with their own family circle.  Over a period of time, the People referred to them in their own language that meant Chief or leader.  In Ben’s language, the term would be “Miko???.  Some tribes went so far as to develop a system for recognizing that persons willingness and natural ability to take care of the People.  Today, we as Indian People have lost elements of our language.  At one time we had an intertribal sign language that was used to communicate.  However, today, as anyone can see, we are now using English for the most part.  That does not make us phony or any less Indian.  Usually when someone comes into our Circle, they ask who is in charge.  They ask “who is your Chief??? or “who is your leader??? or “who is your Miko??? or whatever language is used in that circle.  It takes a strong man to step forward and claim that responsibility.  I am sure there are some who claim ownership of the title “Chief???  or “leader??? and are neither.  In my experience, Ben Carnes is not one of those people.

 I know for a fact that Ben Carnes spent time in prison during his earlier life.  During his stay in prison, he educated himself to what his rights were and to the rights of others who were confined in that environment.  For many years the prison systems, school systems, and other institutions have systematically tried to eliminate Indian culture in any way they could. One of the ways that was done in the prison system was to shave the heads of Indian People and refuse to let them grow their hair long.  This is contrary to many of our tribal cultures and religious practices.  Ben stepped forward and took responsibility to change that within the prison system.  In taking that responsibility, he was physically and judicially harassed and often put in solitary confinement.  But, in his quest for spiritual freedom within the system, he manifested himself as a leader to such a degree that the State of Oklahoma gave him the Oklahoma State Human Rights Award.  He was successful in his endeavor to champion the rights of Indian People to practice their religion in the ways that had been denied them.  When Ben was released, he continued his path in trying to help other Indian People working with different organizations, such as the Leonard Peltier Defense Committee, as well as many others. 

I personally knew Chief Fools Crow and Chief Billy Tayak and have personally danced at their respective Sundances as well as other places around the country.  I have also attended Sundances where Ben Carnes officiated and observed him taking responsibility for making Sundance happen for those who were endeavoring to follow that path.  I don’t know how many religious practices you are familiar with, (i.e. churches, temples, Sundances, synagogues) but if you paid close attention and were somewhat familiar with them, you would have noticed people from many different ethnic backgrounds in attendance.  Oftentimes, the people leading the service are not from the racial or ethnic background of the country of origin for that service.  In attending the many different Sundances that I’ve experienced, I have personally observed many people on different levels of spiritual progression and commitment.  We all have our different levels of growth and speed of progression.  I deeply appreciate the people who facilitate those ceremonies.  That is a most difficult task and in most cases, these people are referred to as Sundance Chiefs or Sundance leaders.  The main objective of these ceremonies is to talk to God and get a positive answer.  That is what a Sundance Chief or leader is supposed to do.  Having said that, I want to say that being a Sundancer is another issue itself.  It too has its varied degrees of progression and responsibility.  It is as varied as the people who say…. “I am a Sundancer???. 

I have known Ben for many years.  It has been my observation that in his heart of hearts, he does the very best he can in facilitating the Sundance and endeavoring to enhance his personal experience, understanding, and knowledge to better facilitate the Sundancers who look to him for help and guidance. 

In reference to a self-sustaining community and seeking donations to bring that about, I find no fault with Ben’s endeavor in that area.  I have visited his home and I know for a fact that he works for a living.  I know for a fact that he does not live an ostentatious life style.  His home is a very humble adobe structure and aside from the work he does to take care of his family, he spends the remainder of his time helping others and preparing for each years gathering for the Sundance.  In seeking to develop a self-sustaining community, Ben is following the prophecies of our People that date back to pre-Columbian times; prophecies that told us of the coming of the non-Indian people, the scattering of our People, of great cataclysmic occurrences, as well as global warning and other calamities.  The prophecies tell us to develop self-sustaining communities in mountainous areas.  Many of the signs of these prophecies are now coming to pass.  I see Ben doing what he has always done – rising to the occasion.  It has been my observation that if you are not being critiqued or talked about, then you’re probably not doing anything. 

Dani, I do not mean to hurt your feelings or demean your concerns.  I only hope to educate you about a really good person that I have known for many years.   He lives in the mountains and has stepped forward to put together a self-sustaining community and in some circles, he would be called a “leader??? or “Miko???. 

Many of us have come a long way from our traditional cultural origin of a nature-based, self-sustaining community and in the same manner, we have a long way to go to return.  I have no doubt if we were suddenly thrown in to an absolute survival mode, we would rise to the occasion.  However, in developing a self-sustaining community, many of the People seeking that direction, like the Sundance, will be on different levels of experience, progression, and strengths.  We use English where we once used sign language.  Likewise, in this time period, we are using the resources available to us to correct some of the damage that has been done to us as a People.  Resources of all kinds will help this endeavor.  At this point in time, monetary resources are one of those tools.  It is a reality much like the reality of using English to communicate intertribally.  Perhaps in your understanding of Ben’s vision, you mistook self-sustaining for meaning primitive.  In reality, it meant “self-sufficient???.  And in technical terms….off the grid. 

Dani, I hope this helps in some way to quell the misunderstanding that you have felt toward Ben and others.  I appreciate the fact that your statements have inadvertently brought a measure of understanding to others who perhaps had the same concerns.  May the Great Spirit bless you in the ways you need.  And when I go to the Sundance this year, I will remember you in a good way. 

David Hill


Offline lrc15

  • Posts: 3
Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2008, 03:07:04 am »
Dani and Webmaster:

I’ll keep this short.  If more people had the heart of Ben Carnes and Cat (his wife), the world would be a better place.  I don’t know anyone more generous or more willing to open their home and hearts to others.   To envision a self-sustaining community for the People and be willing to sacrifice your own comfort and security to have it is the most Earth-thoughtful thing one can do.    If you don’t know Ben and Cat Carnes, perhaps you should.  Your life would be greatly enriched.

Linda C.

Offline Walks

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2008, 04:10:33 am »
I would first like to say that my post in the previous thread had absolutely nothing to do with any goings on anywhere other than on that particular thread.

In Daneilles thread she posted that there were, and I quote, "known" derogratory facts about myself. I challenged that there were no such facts, period.

It was in responce to her post in <b>this</b> site, not from elsewhere, and not as a result of any of our previous history.

Now, I have been accused of bringing an arguement from elsewhere to this site.
That I deny as well. Again my responce were to the allegations posted here on this site.
I do apologize if one was lead to see it otherwise.

Now I do see one of the moderators of this site who it appears to me is attempting to bring an arguement from another site here, and perhaps attempting to sway the person of subject here to turn against their advasary.
If this is off base I apologize but that is what I am feeling.

Am I misguided in my inturpretation?

Secondly, getting back on topic, I must admit, when I first heard of Ben Carnes, I was a bit skeptical, as I am with about anyone I don't know personally, so, it is my way to not take others word to much to heart, but I contacted Ben personally and asked a few questions, but mostly just conversed with him and paid close attention to what he had to say. I conversed with him via email and phone several times, During which time, I had a very dear friend who was going through a very trying crises. Ben and I spoke of this at length and he helpped me to be able to help my friend and get her into a very good frame of mind and get through the issue much easier.

My friend is one who I care for very very much and I will forever be indepted to Ben for counciling me so in turn I could help my friend.

Soon after this event circumstances arose that offered the oppertunity to travel to and be a guest in Ben and Cats home.
Consider the fact that they knew very little about me as well.
They did not hesitate to bring me into their home and extend hospitality above and beyond any I could have reason to expect.

I left there after a three week stay while talking, working, planning, and joining in ceramony with Ben and others, with absolutely no further doubts in my mind that he is in fact one of the very few in this world today who I feel I could trust with anything or anyone I hold dear to my heart.

I was so impressed with the whole experiance that my intentions are to relocate to that area within the next couple months and join Ben and others in their work and in fulfilling our dreams.

I will say again, in not only the case of The Carnes, but with anyone when possible, don't rely on the opinions of others as your sole source of referance, make an effort yourself, by introducing yourself to them and finding out first hand what they are all about.

I'm not saying it is wrong to ask others questions, but simply let first hand knowledge be your main goal, augmented by others wisdom or research.

In closing, I would again like to apologize that some of the bad will followed me here. It was never my intention for it to do so.
I find it hard to believe that anyone reading this, if you saw a blatant lie posted about yourself here that you would fail to address it, regardless of any past history.

I apreciate the moderators of this site giving Ben Carnes and his friends their chance to speak and introduce Ben and Eagle Mountain to you all , and have you see the goodness of them both.

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2008, 06:17:19 am »
Dani and Webmaster:

I’ll keep this short.  If more people had the heart of Ben Carnes and Cat (his wife), the world would be a better place.  I don’t know anyone more generous or more willing to open their home and hearts to others.   To envision a self-sustaining community for the People and be willing to sacrifice your own comfort and security to have it is the most Earth-thoughtful thing one can do.    If you don’t know Ben and Cat Carnes, perhaps you should.  Your life would be greatly enriched.

Linda C.

i been 32 years without ben carnes and i`m doing great...i don`t want to know him. no thank you. his judgement with friends is very much in question.

[Al's note: Unproven smears removed.]
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 01:21:15 pm by educatedindian »

Offline Ben

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2008, 06:48:02 am »
Again thanks to those who have posted additional comments. I've received a couple of msgs. from Dani and still nothing specific about what is so wrong to help our people. Instead, it seems her resentment towards me is based upon my friendship with Walks rather than anything she has insinuated that I am alleged to have done.

I don't feel that there is anything productive to spend anymore of our energies upon. I only want to state that I've tried to engage Dani in a mature and intelligent discussion to clarify any concerns she may have in her mind, but to no avail. Instead, she made some type of threat that she would pursue this vendetta against my website at www.eaglecouncil.org. I am not sure if she intends to hack my site or to attempt to drag negative attention to it. In any event, I will forward her comments to Mr. Carroll and to the FBI's office to establish intent should something occur to my website or if we receive harassing phone calls without the caller identifying him or herself.

In closing, I want to say that I consider Walks, John Jonas, a brother and a friend whom I have found to be an honorable and trustworthy person whom I am happy to have had sat at my table and under my roof. No amount of misdirected futility to drag me into further pointless diatribes is going to change that.

All My Relations, Ben

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2008, 07:29:08 am »
I would first like to say that my post in the previous thread had absolutely nothing to do with any goings on anywhere other than on that particular thread.

In Daneilles thread she posted that there were, and I quote, "known" derogratory facts about myself. I challenged that there were no such facts, period.

It was in responce to her post in <b>this</b> site, not from elsewhere, and not as a result of any of our previous history.

Now, I have been accused of bringing an arguement from elsewhere to this site.
That I deny as well. Again my responce were to the allegations posted here on this site.
I do apologize if one was lead to see it otherwise.

Now I do see one of the moderators of this site who it appears to me is attempting to bring an arguement from another site here, and perhaps attempting to sway the person of subject here to turn against their advasary.
If this is off base I apologize but that is what I am feeling.

Am I misguided in my inturpretation?

Secondly, getting back on topic, I must admit, when I first heard of Ben Carnes, I was a bit skeptical, as I am with about anyone I don't know personally, so, it is my way to not take others word to much to heart, but I contacted Ben personally and asked a few questions, but mostly just conversed with him and paid close attention to what he had to say. I conversed with him via email and phone several times, During which time, I had a very dear friend who was going through a very trying crises. Ben and I spoke of this at length and he helpped me to be able to help my friend and get her into a very good frame of mind and get through the issue much easier.

My friend is one who I care for very very much and I will forever be indepted to Ben for counciling me so in turn I could help my friend.

Soon after this event circumstances arose that offered the oppertunity to travel to and be a guest in Ben and Cats home.
Consider the fact that they knew very little about me as well.
They did not hesitate to bring me into their home and extend hospitality above and beyond any I could have reason to expect.

I left there after a three week stay while talking, working, planning, and joining in ceramony with Ben and others, with absolutely no further doubts in my mind that he is in fact one of the very few in this world today who I feel I could trust with anything or anyone I hold dear to my heart.

I was so impressed with the whole experiance that my intentions are to relocate to that area within the next couple months and join Ben and others in their work and in fulfilling our dreams.

I will say again, in not only the case of The Carnes, but with anyone when possible, don't rely on the opinions of others as your sole source of referance, make an effort yourself, by introducing yourself to them and finding out first hand what they are all about.

I'm not saying it is wrong to ask others questions, but simply let first hand knowledge be your main goal, augmented by others wisdom or research.

In closing, I would again like to apologize that some of the bad will followed me here. It was never my intention for it to do so.
I find it hard to believe that anyone reading this, if you saw a blatant lie posted about yourself here that you would fail to address it, regardless of any past history.

I apreciate the moderators of this site giving Ben Carnes and his friends their chance to speak and introduce Ben and Eagle Mountain to you all , and have you see the goodness of them both.

 igmuska invited me here b/c he knows i`m going to represent the best i can. he`s aware of all my internet activities not just myspace..it`s really hard to find good people but we hold on to each other when we do.

now i just about covered the myspace issues....don`t go bringing them here anymore. you can come here and give props to ben carnes til hell freezes over but i`m still going to find out for myself. anything you say only added more fuel to the fire. it`s the only purpose you served here.

i wish you well in whatever you do,like i said before..


[quote walks] In Daneilles thread she posted that there were, and I quote, "known" derogratory facts about myself. I challenged that there were no such facts, period.

It was in responce to her post in <b>this</b> site, not from elsewhere, and not as a result of any of our previous history.

Now, I have been accused of bringing an arguement from elsewhere to this site.
That I deny as well. Again my responce were to the allegations posted here on this site.
I do apologize if one was lead to see it otherwise.

Now I do see one of the moderators of this site who it appears to me is attempting to bring an arguement from another site here, and perhaps attempting to sway the person of subject here to turn against their advasary.
If this is off base I apologize but that is what I am feeling.[ end quote]

[Al's note: More unproven smears removed.]
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 01:25:34 pm by educatedindian »

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2008, 07:35:58 am »
oh and,thanks for that reference momma_porcupine....i missed that one the times i`m here lurking. :)

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2008, 07:50:00 am »
Again thanks to those who have posted additional comments. I've received a couple of msgs. from Dani and still nothing specific about what is so wrong to help our people. Instead, it seems her resentment towards me is based upon my friendship with Walks rather than anything she has insinuated that I am alleged to have done.

I don't feel that there is anything productive to spend anymore of our energies upon. I only want to state that I've tried to engage Dani in a mature and intelligent discussion to clarify any concerns she may have in her mind, but to no avail. Instead, she made some type of threat that she would pursue this vendetta against my website at www.eaglecouncil.org. I am not sure if she intends to hack my site or to attempt to drag negative attention to it. In any event, I will forward her comments to Mr. Carroll and to the FBI's office to establish intent should something occur to my website or if we receive harassing phone calls without the caller identifying him or herself.

In closing, I want to say that I consider Walks, John Jonas, a brother and a friend whom I have found to be an honorable and trustworthy person whom I am happy to have had sat at my table and under my roof. No amount of misdirected futility to drag me into further pointless diatribes is going to change that.

All My Relations, Ben
i don`t have the skills and have never done it but i know where that accusation stems from nor do i have time for any of that other nensense. i have no reason to hack or call you. the only things i wanted to know about you i brought here.

carry on with whatever you want to do but. my computer has been hacked,but i haven`t gotten any phone calls to harrass. i`m not telling how we found out i was hacked and who did it....... that sucks and to invade my privacy. well,i`m leave that alone unless i need it.

Offline Chahta38

  • Posts: 2
Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2008, 08:21:37 am »
It's painfully obvious what this is all about and it has to do with your issues with Walks and absolutely noting to do with Ben, except for the fact that he is a friend of Walks.  That's what you do.  Because you can no longer get to John over the past year, you attack his family his friends.  You are well known for this spiteful behavior.

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2008, 09:13:27 am »
i came here with a question about ben carnes. now can we get off the walks drama? you`re not coming here to keep on throwing crap at me. i came here to focus on newagefraud in 2006. i didn`t bring no drama with me...... that`s only words on messageboards and a waste of time. now will you people move on,please.

on ben carnes,i wouldn`t have had interest in his vision with or without any one named walks or john jonas. even being satisfied that the man is not fraud and i pretty much know now that he isn`t,it`s for people who need him not me...isn`t it clear enough now?

throwing drama into it and attacks on me i know is part of keeping someone from being productive but it`s there so you got to face it. it`s just one of the obstacles of an activist.

hey i passed the test many a times. i know how to put cover on dani`s name. you been throwing all that crap at me and it just bounces off.

please don`t hack the man`s website and try blaming it on me. he don`t need that drama any more than i do.

wanbli

  • Guest
Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2008, 12:26:10 pm »
Its obvious that this thread has been taken over once again by personal stuff that has nothing to do with Ben . Ben is a good man .. David Hill is a good man .I have seen both of these mens works for more than a decade and a half. The validity of their work is manifest in the real world. Its Obvious that Dani isnt interested in Ben and his work for the people . Only in pursuing personal agendas that have nothing to do with Ben other than a common acquaintance . Let the thread continue ABOUT Eagle Mountain and in doing so ignore the ignorant. Wasting time on the personal takes away from any knowledge on the actual subject which is a good one.

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2008, 01:39:24 pm »
if that was your intention my name wouldn`t even be in your post. long as it`s not mentioned again you can give ben carnes all the support you have to. just keep any reference to me out of it.

dr carroll,ican`t see any need for a support thread and agree it`s not the purpose of this board.if you at any time decide to lock this thread...i`m going to thank you ahead of time.

wanbli

  • Guest
Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2008, 02:41:31 pm »
Goooood. Now perhaps the discussion about Eagle Mountain may continue. But locking a thread because one person is done with it seems a little out of line .

frederica

  • Guest
Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2008, 03:06:27 pm »
Yep, because Ben Carnes hasn't been in question since day one. And apologies should be in order, but that's beyond my reach.