Author Topic: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council  (Read 128988 times)

Offline Walks

  • Posts: 28
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #240 on: September 30, 2009, 11:21:30 pm »
....... how many of those who criticize him have been working for Leonards freedom, how many of them made the sacrifice to fast in Washington to bring Leonards plight to the attention of the the White House and the public?
Now this is getting way off topic but beings you brought it up I will address it here and if the moderators so wish they can delete both posts.

As for myself and other individuals I associate with, we have supported Leonard in our own ways and through other avenues besides the LPDOC.

The reason being is because Ben Carnes was receiving and in fact using  for personal use, resources coming from that organization.

And while we do support Leonard in many ways that we don't feel needs to be publicized, we do not wish to support the personal needs or agenda of Ben Carnes.

Perhaps now that Carnes is no longer affiliated with LPDOC many former supporters may feel better about returning our support to that organization.

It is yet to be seen if this turns out to be true due to not knowing how LPDOC will proceed with the upcoming changes in leadership and representation.

Offline Walks

  • Posts: 28
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #241 on: September 30, 2009, 11:25:04 pm »





</b>Read the response from Kenny Frost(Ute)</b>








http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=60994277&messageID=6563928346&hash=MIG%2fBgorBgEEAYI3WAOgoIGwMIGtBgorBgEEAYI3WAMBoIGeMIGbAgMCAAECAmYDAgIAwAQI62tb0FTddXkEEK%2fDGSEbiCu3Cos3YMS8IDIEcE4SghZkrX8nm3xl%2b44WIirdQLuftvmgdJLiKrJzRkga2AzsJJyRV93lCtxBIBoTU0Y2C2HMEH4g7wYp1PH9x7%2bksu4mCYsDEQj5OCDlDBEexn9qLIS%2bsGlH24m0ZJqE%2fam9Y1Po6o%2bxGztNGDiyEsA%3d


Sep 29, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject:    Ben Carnes...Native American "TERRORIST???"
Body:    Wicahcala….. I told you of the fraud Ben Carnes is and you didn’t listen to me… But rather defend him. Just as you are defending his actions here now!!!
By saying he is zealous?

Is the Leonard Pelitier organization now turned into “TERRORIST’s GROUP”…. Ben Carnes is supposedly the “CHIEF spokesman of this group??? You’re a part of this as well too! You and those in charge of Leonard organization allow this to happen….

You allows him to destroy the years and years of work of many who supported Leonard. Many of those who supported Leonard were “Movie Stars, Judges, Members of the Law Enforcement communities, Politicians, Foreign Delegates and the list goes on.

Wichahcala you allow this Fake (Ben Carnes) to destroy all the years of hard work.

For the 1st time in history we “HAD” friends who were willing to work for Leonard release in high places….This is now gone!!!...
I for one will not be a part of this group who supports a Terrorist as Ben Carnes or anyone who does harm to our people. I have not forward messages onward to anyone.

Ben Carnes wants to do away with the many AIM organization why? Because, he couldn’t get support from them as they don’t know who Ben Carnes is.

As I stated, Ben Carnes is a convicted felon, he is a fake, a fraud and was self-appointed sun dance chief. He isn’t a chief of anything! He is a nobody! No one knows who Ben Carnes is. He resides in Colorado and yet no one knows who he is. The Denver Native community doesn’t know who Ben Carnes is as well and if they did they also say he is a fraud!

At the end of Ben letter. He goes on to ask for money to survive. Now that winter is coming. What about the other poor people who reside on Indian reservations who suffer day in and day out? They don’t have a warm house, heat to heat their home, often times going without proper food. What about these people?

Now Ben Carnes is and will be known in the Native community as a “Terrorist” And enemy of Native people as well too. We must remember, The US is also Indian Country and this is our land. We as Native people will also protect “Our Land (USA)” from those who try to destroy it. Whether it is people from foreign land, soil and even from our own which includes Ben Carnes.

Remember there were Native people who were also taken in 9/11 as well too. Many Native people lost their lives rescuing other people. We will not forget them.

A great many Native people have given their lives in the protection of the US and Indian Country and have died doing so. A great many Native people “Will Not” be a part of a organization which will support a terrorist as Ben Carnes.


wicahcala

While i understand Bens zeal for the cause i want it understood that i in no way condone the idea of shutting down major transportation hubs and public utilities or disrupting public commerce.."





</b>P.S. I have received word from good authority that Ben resigned from his position with The Leonard Peltier Defence/Offence Commitee a couple hours ago.

What lead up to this developement?
It is presumed he will now more forward with implementing his plans for terrorist acts!

Walks....</b>


 This part of your post I do believe violates the rules of the moderators here. It is based not on fact, but rather on an opinion expressed by Kenny Frost and nothing more.

 In fact since it is presenting opinions as if they are facts, it is libelous in nature since Ben Carnes is not a terrorist. The opinion and accusations of Ben being a terrorist by Kenny Frost are based on Ben's own words in regards to what the feels the USG would call him for his opinions. This is not unlike what the FBI and USG has called AIM and most NDN activists.

 In fact the shutting down of commercial hubbs etc is not much different then what the so called "illegal immigrants" tried to do in their immigrants rights marches, and days when they would not buy or sell. That does not make them terrorists any more so then it does Ben Carnes.

 Therefore this part of your post is nothing but opinion by Kenny Frost being presented as fact, and is out right libelous in nature because of it.
Mike, I would hope that the moderators of this board are very much aware of their TOS without you reminding them, or did I miss you becoming one such moderator?


Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #242 on: September 30, 2009, 11:58:15 pm »
I speak with Kenny pretty regularly and I have not, even one time, heard him say any thing against Ben simply living in the area.

Just as he does not say any thing to any one of another race for inhabiting the area.

What, I think, Kenny's real objection to is the fact that Ben is conducting a Ceremony, which is traditional to the Ute, but not the Choctaw, as far as I am aware, and is doing so in traditional Ute territory.

As such, Ben is making and proclaiming himself as a leader and representative of the Native population of the area.

He is not endorsed, nor even accepted by the NDN community there.

The argument that the land is no longer in NDN possession doesnt pan out as neither is the property that the white house occupies.

That sentence, was also the one, among a couple others, which stuck out the most to me and also to several others whom I have spoke to since this statement from Carnes came out.

And yes, I do find it a bit ironic that Ben would complain about Obama doing something that he himself is doing.

I have personally heard Ben use the argument that he is justified in his actions regardless of the opinion of the Ute Nation, because as he said, "If Creator didn't want me to be doing what I do, where I do it, I would not have been able to have the means to do so."

That may not be an exact quote, but I guarantee you it were words to that exact same effect.

Do I agree with the Gov occupying and in fact governing over NDN lands?......Of course not, and not just lands in D.C.
However, it is come to be expected for those with the more superioristic Euro type morals and values to conduct themselves in this way.

Shall we go so far as to say that we should expect those same values from Carnes? After all he does claim to be tradish rather than totally assimilated doesn't he?

As for this being a proper discussion for this thread, or group even, as many of you know, exploiters and victimizers are the only people who are actively seeking out others who are desperate to make some kind of connection to the/a Native community.

Noone else is going to be out beating the bushes looking for the folks, therefor, often times it is the exploiters with whom these folks first come in contact with.

If there is any kind of a question about ones intentions in regards to this or their character, You are damn right....research is needed!

Myself and others feel like Ben is losing it and is becoming dangerous, not only to himself, but to others as well as reflecting negatively on the NDN community in general.

It is not a dishonorable act, to try and bring awareness to otherwise unknowing, but sincere, individuals as to the possibility of unwittingly getting involved in a potentially very bad situation in their quest to connect.

If, after being advised to the possible perils, that person goes on to put themselves into a predicament, while unfortunate, that person can not say they were not made aware of the possible dangers, whether it be legal troubles, victimized financially or in some other manner.

Think for a minute, of Sunbear, and in another context, of Anna Mae Aquash.
Sometimes it is best to speak up so that others may make their own more informed decision as to what path it is that they wish to travel.



After all, he does claim to be tradish, does he not?



   John,

 I am going to be completely civil with you here as long as you stay that way with me. As long a we can both agree to do that, then I see no reason why we can not discuss this as grown men.


 
Quote
I speak with Kenny pretty regularly and I have not, even one time, heard him say any thing against Ben simply living in the area.


 Now you might be right in this regards, however I have read on several ocassions where Kenny complains about what Ben is doing on "Ute lands."  This goes back to what I have already said in regards to proper protocol in conducting ceremonies on the traditional lands of another person. At best I could see Ben being viewed as rude, etc. However that is as far as it goes since Ben is operating on private land.

 Do I think a traditional person should work this out with the tribes who's lands they might be conducting ceremony on? Well yes I do, but that is how I was taught and things might be different for Ben. Plus I still feel there are mitigating circumstances here that either you don't know about, not being told about etc.

 This however does not however equate to Ben being an exploiter which is what this thread is about. If there is  respect issue based on traditional things I can see somebody having an issue with that possibly. However it is being blown out of proportion here.

Quote
  What, I think, Kenny's real objection to is the fact that Ben is conducting a Ceremony, which is traditional to the Ute, but not the Choctaw, as far as I am aware, and is doing so in traditional Ute territory.

 Okay in this circumstance you would almost be right, but there again are mitigating circumstance you are not realizing.

  The Sundance is not just a Ute ceremony, but is one done by many people on the plains. Now days I even know of Navajo who go into Lakota lands and Sundance with them since they have been invited to do so. As long as the elders of the people performing the Sundance are okay with Navajo in those Sundances then it is not an issue.

 Now Ben become a Sundance by way of Chief Tayac, and I do believe this all has it's roots with permission from Lakota elders. So as long as Ben has permission from them to be doing that Sundance where he lives there is no issue. There is no more issue in that then the Lakota I know in California who do Lakota style sweats on Yokut lands.

 As long as Ben has permission from Tayac and whatever elders they are all associated with, Kenny Frost has no say.

 Again it is just a possible matter of respect being given to the Ute and nothing more. Even in that I do believe there is more to this then Kenny Frost says.

 
Quote
As such, Ben is making and proclaiming himself as a leader and representative of the Native population of the area.

 I have talked to Ben on  on the phone, and have never once heard him say he is the leader of the population in Colorado. Nor have I ever seen him use that in his writing ever.

 As a Sundance Chief, and spokesperson for the LPDOC he was in fact an Indian in a leadership position. There is no argument there at all, especially since he was appointed as such.

 
Quote
He is not endorsed, nor even accepted by the NDN community there.

 Who says this exactly? Do you have any sources to prove that? As you are aware, I have known people in Colorodo AIM, and they do know who Ben is. When I spoke to them on this matter they had nothing but good words to say about Ben.

 So I would like you to come forth with more proof of this other then the words of one man (Kenny Frost)

Quote
The argument that the land is no longer in NDN possession doesnt pan out as neither is the property that the white house occupies.


 How so? Do you see white men asking tribal leaders to build churches or towns on their traditional lands?

 Do you ask permission to hunt on traditional lands of the people who's lands you lived on. Do you ask then permission every time you move into a new home, or build something on a certain land?

 I know you do not, and neither do I? I seriously doubt even most NDN's do that to be honest. Some may go to get the house or whatever blessed, but that is as far as it goes most the time.

 Ben is on private land, and not tribal lands. At best this is a possible matter of respect and nothing more.

Quote
I have personally heard Ben use the argument that he is justified in his actions regardless of the opinion of the Ute Nation, because as he said, "If Creator didn't want me to be doing what I do, where I do it, I would not have been able to have the means to do so."

 Would you care to explain to me and others here though your personal experiences with elders, spiritual leaders etc?

I don't say this to knock on you John, but I just wonder how much of this that you try to speak on is coming from things you know from personal experience.

 I am sure you can say from Kenny Frost, but that does not really count to me since that is just one man you have met recently. I want to know if you have had elders that have sat down and taught you all of these things you are speaking of. If they are Ute, then how come we never hear of them, but only of Kenny Frost?

 Plus you say you are Cherokee, but learning from Utes now is it? I don't have an issue with it, but it seems sorta hypocritical when you go after Ben for sorta similar things.

 A lot of the subject matter in this thread should come from things learned from off the net by NDN elders, spiritual leaders, members of the community etc, and not from people on the net who go only by books or what they read.

 Now I am not saying I know all of this stuff super well, but I have spoken here based on things taught to me over my life by real elders and not people met on the net.

 So I am wondering how your real world experience and knowledge fits into what you are saying???

Quote
 
Do I agree with the Gov occupying and in fact governing over NDN lands?......Of course not, and not just lands in D.C.
However, it is come to be expected for those with the more superioristic Euro type morals and values to conduct themselves in this way.

I agree with you completely, but it has no bearing on this topic other then because of such things caused by the arrival of Europeans that has greatly altered the history of natives here. The bottom line is because of this, Ben is on private land and not tribal lands. It keeps this a respect issue at best.


Quote
Shall we go so far as to say that we should expect those same values from Carnes? After all he does claim to be tradish rather than totally assimilated doesn't he?

I think I have explained all of this to you in my above replies to you John.

What is your definition of traditional anyhow? Some say you can't be when you do something like start up a car. It seems that the word traditional will get you a thousands diffrent answers sometimes. Sorta like asking the definition of what an NDN is.

Quote
As for this being a proper discussion for this thread, or group even, as many of you know, exploiters and victimizers are the only people who are actively seeking out others who are desperate to make some kind of connection to the/a Native community 

 True, but this has nothing to do where Ben lives or holds ceremonies. The charges being levied against him here are still unproven.


 
Quote
If there is any kind of a question about ones intentions in regards to this or their character, You are damn right....research is needed!

Myself and others feel like Ben is losing it and is becoming dangerous, not only to himself, but to others as well as reflecting negatively on the NDN community in general.

It is not a dishonorable act, to try and bring awareness to otherwise unknowing, but sincere, individuals as to the possibility of unwittingly getting involved in a potentially very bad situation in their quest to connect.

If, after being advised to the possible perils, that person goes on to put themselves into a predicament, while unfortunate, that person can not say they were not made aware of the possible dangers, whether it be legal troubles, victimized financially or in some other manner.

Think for a minute, of Sunbear, and in another context, of Anna Mae Aquash.
Sometimes it is best to speak up so that others may make their own more informed decision as to what path it is that they wish to travel.

Most of this is just opinion on your part rather then fact, hence the usage of the word "feel" by you. In something like this you can feel many things, but what you feel does not make them so.

 This is a thread in the section "research needed," and so nothing here has been proven with no doubt to it being true or not. So most of what should be posted should be fact rather then opinion.

 Things posted like this almost seem as if they are trying to lead people on with opinions and feelings being presented as facts, when they are not.

 So I think it best not to speak of Ben or anyone put here as if they are doing what they are accused of, until it has been proven they are or not.

Offline Walks

  • Posts: 28
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #243 on: October 01, 2009, 12:26:32 am »
Yes Mike, I was taught by my own true Elders and continue to learn and be taught by many people from many areas and various Nations as well as different cultures.

Just as my case in regards to you, you know some things about me, but what you know would make only a drop in the bucket of what is there.

Some have come to me with respect and asked for information about me and I have been very open to them......you have not and have tried to exploit in some negative way the mear scraps of knowledge of me, as well as others, you do posses, for your own argument or spin, therefor, I will not willingly give you any personal information on myself or others.

When I post here, I do so with personal knowledge derived from spending not hours, but weeks with Ben in person, not as you have, on the phone.

Just as you can not get a full assessment of an individual on the net, neither can you on the phone.

Doesn't it seem interesting that every person posting here against Ben, knows him personally, and every person posting in support of him except perhaps some past posts by Ben's wife and Glenda Deer, will only admit to at most, speaking to him on the phone.

Where are these Denver people whom you claim know and support him?
It would be really beneficial not only in support of Carnes, but in helping other ill informed or uninformed individuals make wiser personal choices if they could hear from supporters who actually know Ben.

Unlike, some on here, I feel people have the right to make up their own mind of what to believe and I post words such as "opinion" or I feel or believe" in order to not come across as trying to inject my truth into them.

I try to provide information when I can and allow others to decide for themselves what is their truth.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #244 on: October 01, 2009, 12:48:11 am »

</b>Read the response from Kenny Frost(Ute)</b>

http://bulletins.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&authorID=60994277&messageID=6563928346&hash=MIG%2fBgorBgEEAYI3WAOgoIGwMIGtBgorBgEEAYI3WAMBoIGeMIGbAgMCAAECAmYDAgIAwAQI62tb0FTddXkEEK%2fDGSEbiCu3Cos3YMS8IDIEcE4SghZkrX8nm3xl%2b44WIirdQLuftvmgdJLiKrJzRkga2AzsJJyRV93lCtxBIBoTU0Y2C2HMEH4g7wYp1PH9x7%2bksu4mCYsDEQj5OCDlDBEexn9qLIS%2bsGlH24m0ZJqE%2fam9Y1Po6o%2bxGztNGDiyEsA%3d


Sep 29, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject:    Ben Carnes...Native American "TERRORIST???"
Body:    Wicahcala….. I told you of the fraud Ben Carnes is and you didn’t listen to me… But rather defend him. Just as you are defending his actions here now!!!
By saying he is zealous?

Is the Leonard Pelitier organization now turned into “TERRORIST’s GROUP”….

A great many Native people “Will Not” be a part of a organization which will support a terrorist as Ben Carnes.

While i understand Bens zeal for the cause i want it understood that i in no way condone the idea of shutting down major transportation hubs and public utilities or disrupting public commerce.."

...What lead up to this developement?
It is presumed he will now more forward with implementing his plans for terrorist acts!

Walks....</b>


 This part of your post I do believe violates the rules of the moderators here. It is based not on fact, but rather on an opinion expressed by Kenny Frost and nothing more.

 In fact since it is presenting opinions as if they are facts, it is libelous in nature since Ben Carnes is not a terrorist. The opinion and accusations of Ben being a terrorist by Kenny Frost are based on Ben's own words in regards to what the feels the USG would call him for his opinions. This is not unlike what the FBI and USG has called AIM and most NDN activists.

 In fact the shutting down of commercial hubbs etc is not much different then what the so called "illegal immigrants" tried to do in their immigrants rights marches, and days when they would not buy or sell. That does not make them terrorists any more so then it does Ben Carnes.

 Therefore this part of your post is nothing but opinion by Kenny Frost being presented as fact, and is out right libelous in nature because of it.

Leaving in both your post and Frost's statement.

While it is certainly a very extreme statement to label Carnes a terrorist, it's much akin to those who call protesters terrorists, or AIM as terrorists. While I don't agree with it at all, I think it's a very difficult call to say if it's libelous. It's about as credible, IMO as those protesters who call Obama a Nazi or Commie. It's a crazy statement to make. But I'm not certain if it's libelous.

What we're left with is a paradox. If Carnes were to ask me to delete those parts of that statement alone that call him a terrorist, we'd have to seriously consider it. However that would also undermine the argument of Carnes supporters (that Frost is not credible or has a vendetta against Carnes) by deleting evidence of that.

Offline Walks

  • Posts: 28
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #245 on: October 01, 2009, 01:03:01 am »
In fairness of the argument, I feel I should say that after discussing with Kenny the possibility of him posting here himself, he declined and I posted his statement without asking his permission.

Make of that what you will but as we all know, once you post in an online forum you can not claim copywrite to the words.

Offline earthw7

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Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #246 on: October 01, 2009, 07:46:20 pm »
I talked with my friend Kenny last night I wonder if he knows that you all
are using his name back and forth here
In Spirit

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 257
Re: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council
« Reply #247 on: October 01, 2009, 08:21:58 pm »
I talked with my friend Kenny last night I wonder if he knows that you all
are using his name back and forth here

 Well Kenny is involved in this matter even if he is not present here. Plus he has no problem posting up bulletin after bulletin making statements about people using their names, and calling them terrorists when they are not.

 So that makes him, and his words an issue in this thread.