Author Topic: Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council  (Read 126168 times)

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2008, 12:51:26 am »
i`m danielle,thank you....no need to call me sir,i`m a female. what you posted is the exact same thing that plenty of folks have seen and it`s what i read last year.....like i said.And no,i`m hardly wading in anything over my head.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2008, 01:04:33 am »
Danielle, you do seem determined to beat this to death, and Carnes's supporters are as well.

Once again, if you have anything solid, let's see it. No innuendos, come straight out with it. And have hard proof or quit wasting our time.

To Carnes's supporters: You gotta be given credit for persistence, and in one case for being so overzealous that you acted as bad as anything Danielle did.

Apparently one thread where Carnes was already complimented as a serious activist and NOT an exploiter wasn't enough. You had to start a second one.

Apparently the accusations with no proof being deleted in that other thread wasn't enough, because I still kept getting rude, demanding, insulting email from that one Carnes supporter who also felt I should be at her beck and call over at Indianz.

And to top it off, that same person then felt the need to smear my name at Indianz. That doesn't help Carnes at all, it just made her look petty and badly informed.

I think I speak for many when I say I'd appreciate it both if you'd not do as Danielle has done, and also actually take part in the forum the same way everyone else does, putting our heads together to find out what we can about exploiters we're asked about. Not just being a cheering section for Carnes.

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2008, 01:11:26 am »
I didn`t start this thread...and i just sent an email to frederica.

Offline earthw7

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2008, 02:48:26 am »
while all I have to say is that the protection order does not say other native people can't participate. It say Non-Indians.
In Spirit

Offline Mvskoke.Lady

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2008, 04:52:41 am »
[Further smears, defamation, and lies removed.]

You can terminate my membership here now.  I didn't find satisfaction from this place the first time I joined and darn sure don't see it doing any good now. 

On a final note:  Give Ben a break.  He's a good person that is leading many people by providing them with a fine example of how to live spiritually.   This place is for New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans, of which Ben is none.   Mvto

[Al's note: She's been removed for her lies, and for this threatening email sent to me.

"Now you have made another enemy IRL if that's how you are going to act.  Fine."

MvskokeLady certainly has not helped Carnes one bit with her bitter, abusive, and demanding behavior. She does not reflect well on either Carnes or Carnes's supporters.]
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 12:34:05 pm by educatedindian »

Offline Ben

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2008, 05:56:29 am »
I want to thank everyone who have rallied to support me and show that I have widespread legitimate support for what I do.

First, I want to point out that I am disappointed that the person who first dragged my name onto this board did not have the courtesy to contact me with any questions they may have had. NAFPS, as I understand it is not a sole authority on who is a fraud or exploiting traditional Native spirituality, but it can cause harm or suspicion to a person. Maybe this incident will cause NAFPS to review its policy and will contact the "accused' before any disparaging remarks can be made public on the board.

Since there was a broad and vague accusation or insinuation that my work and non-profit organization is not on the level, I would like to know exactly and to the point what it is that constitutes fraud or exploitation? No where on my website does it advertise for ceremonies, instead, it points out that we would prefer to utilize traditional values and philosophies based upon our Native spirituality to address issues or chemical abuse, prisoners support and working with youth at risk. As an organization we still have a long ways to go to create the infrastructure we need to begin providing direct and in-direct services.  So is planning to develop programs to help our people -  now constitute fraud or exploitation?

Another issue is that a "woodland Indian" cannot Sun Dance or be a Sun Dance Chief is a great surprise to me. In the late 60's and early 70's, after the formation of the American Indian Movement, it was Henry Crow Dog who told the AIM warriors that in order for their movement to be successful, they needed to have a spiritual foundation. This was the time when relatives from many Nations began to participate in the sweat lodge, Pipe and Sun Dance ceremonies. As a result, many of the AIM warriors who were eventually placed in state and federal prison began to make a demand for their traditional practices all across the country. This is how the Lakota ceremonies became so prevalent across the country. As for my people, we have had our cultural and spiritual evolution so disrupted due to earlier european contact that what remains of our ceremonies is now more of a public display.

For many other Native people who have lost their ceremonies due to the colonial occupation of our homelands and assimilation tactics by missionaries and the u.s. governments, we have all been thankful for a way of life that has helped our own lives.

As for Looking Horse's statement, I remember the protection of ceremonies statement. I also remember the statements by Chief Leonard Crow Dog, Chief Reggie Little Brave, and others who did not agree with the "Protection of Ceremonies" statement. I  also remember being asked by many other practitioners of the Sun Dance what I thought. I expressed that until the Lakota people came to a consensus, we should continue our prayers to the Creator. I have made a commitment to this way of life and no man has the right to stand between the Creator and myself. I can't take credit for that statement, Leonard Peltier made that statement in 1990 or 91 when a Sun Dancers vigil was held in Washington, D.C.  As I see it from my experience, I pray and the Creator lets me know what I must do and whenever I follow my directions, some really wonderful things have happened. So I know the Creator supports me in what I do. If anyone thinks the Creator has lied to me, the they need to take it up with some cedar, prayer and a lot respect, cause you may not get the answer you were expecting.

If each of us believed in the power of the Creator and the spirits as we all claim, then we should know that they will deal with the exploiters and frauds that has caused so many people harm. Don't get me wrong Mr. Carroll, I agree that there should be some source to allow people to be forewarned in the event a well known and proven fake preys upon the innocents, but to allow someone to be named publicly without their knowledge is unforgivable and irresponsible. I hope that the standards utilized by NAFPS will be reviewed, and that maybe they will contact me personally to ascertain the validity of the poster who brought this up. If the poster had cared enough to contact me, I would have been happy to find someone whom she may know personally, and a Lena Lenape family, in New Jersey, such as the Ridgway family.

In any event, now that I have finally had an opportunity to offer my comments here, I considered this thread at an end, and would hope that if there were any further questions, I would receive a personal message from NAFPS or Danielle. I can't promise that I will reply this weekend, but possibly next weekend as I work out of town and don't have access to a computer.

And much thanks and appreciation to my cheering section to know that I have so many relatives and family who have my back.

Ben Carnes

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2008, 09:51:12 am »
ridgeway is a name known here,yes.they are nanticoke lenape not lenape.there`s lots of them and they may even be nanticoke..not of the unilatchtigo. i`m mixed with both. you`re talking about the nanticoke-lenape of bridgeton.  i am not an exploiter here,mr carnes,nor do i ask for money, like i said in my message to you,i will not give you any of my personal information..that`s where i put my foot down.my people have been moved at least 20 times and it`s not unusual if we don`t know each other. we`re quite scattered. last time i saw so many of us together was at a symposium. i`m not a pow wow person and if folks don`t want to stomp dance i`m not doing it.i do come from a very close knit family who has been in the homeland since way,way back.

kay,i hope i`m done in this thread....




Offline educatedindian

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2008, 12:47:01 pm »
I want to thank everyone who have rallied to support me and show that I have widespread legitimate support for what I do....

 NAFPS, as I understand it is not a sole authority on who is a fraud or exploiting traditional Native spirituality, but it can cause harm or suspicion to a person. Maybe this incident will cause NAFPS to review its policy and will contact the "accused' before any disparaging remarks can be made public on the board.

...there was a broad and vague accusation or insinuation that my work and non-profit organization is not on the level,

...I would like to know exactly and to the point what it is that constitutes fraud or exploitation?

Ben Carnes

As you can see by looking several posts above, one of your supporters did not do you credit at all, and was nothing but demanding, insulting, and herself helped spread lies about myself and this forum on another forum. That didn't help your case, esp her melodramatic claim that she will now consider me an "enemy". With friends like that.... you are not being helped.

Nowhere has NAFPS ever claimed to be a sole authority, only trying to do our best to help on these matters.

If we waited on every person we investigate to respond first, they'd quickly realize they could block criticism that way. After all, nearly all the people brought to our attention as possible exploiters ARE clearly exploiters. Your suggestion would only harm people by allowing exploiters to keep abusing and keep possible victims from being warned.

There never was a "broad" accusation. There was a single person making accusations who has never been able to back them up.

For what makes someone a fraud, see the Who We Are and What We Do section at the intro at www.newagefraud.org.

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2008, 01:26:04 pm »
i`m going to another site where i know i won`t be used as your scapegoat.i` came with a question just like you said we could. one of those allegations you didn`t give me a chance to prove.you gathered all this notion that it`s danielle`s fault on 3 posts from me.. i don`t think you`re my enemy but if you don`t want to hear me out i`ll get the job done....i got work to do and you won`t even let me get it done.it.

you are your`re own enemy.


Offline earthw7

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2008, 01:47:55 pm »
Hi Ben
I did not see anyone condemn you here,
the woman who brought the claim and the woman who is defending Homegrown seem to have issues with each other. It is your friend home that has brought this issues to other boards.
1. it is nice you follow my ways
2. It has been said because of what AIM did to us we are struck with the tribe being a part of our spirituality. We accept that just as long as you know your own culture and do yours best to relearn your culture.
3. It is wrong for OUTSIDER to decide to divide our nation and our issues further.
4. It is because the outsider causing problem for us we were forced to come to these decision.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 02:23:13 pm by earthw7 »
In Spirit

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2008, 02:10:22 pm »
go standing rock!! them hunkpapa come through for themselves everytime ! i gotta send some heart felt thanks to the inspiration and knowledge i gained from harold one feather.........sitting bull can be right proud of that one....and earthw7,you are every bit as awesome.

hey ben,my own ceremony of the bighouse is extinct but i knwo every move.even our dead visionaries and holymen can hold it together in what they left us with.........stop using them lame excuses and that aim crutch....do some research on frank speck.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 02:15:13 pm by danielle »

frederica

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2008, 03:00:20 pm »
hey ben,my own ceremony of the bighouse is extinct but i knwo every move.even our dead visionaries and holymen can hold it together in what they left us with.........stop using them lame excuses and that aim crutch....do some research on frank speck.
                  It is not exactly "extinct", its been mixed. But I let you research that one. I think that is part of the problem. At the start a question was asked, and answered. NO wrong doing was found. It should have been dropped, unless the person asking had substantial information backing up their thought. But if they had they wouldn't have asked the question in the first place. Then it took of in another direction involving long standing personal issues with another person. That was stopped. I know nothing of these My Spaces, 360, Red Nation Society and whatever else there is, but what occurs there should stay there and not be dragged all over the internet. We sure do not wish to be used someone's personal battleground.  And it seems recently we are seeing more of this from people in these groups. I am not interested in "Indian Mud Wrestling", to quote MP. So I strongly HOPE this is the end of it. Thanks. And that is my opinion.

wanbli

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2008, 04:46:22 pm »
I am constantly amazed everyday how we choose to divide ourselves . Is there any way we can be ever heard as one native voice if we always find a reason to divide ourselves? Is it necessary , other than ego , to pound the chest and say who is the reddest? This thread and it seems this venue is more about division than unity . There are some folks walkin right now . Do they quarrel over who is the reddest or do they just walk side by side? All of this seems to have started over personal conflict that has nothing to do with Ben. Cant personal conflict be handled without trying to divide our people .Are those personal conflicts more important than the seventh generation ?
If we ever are to have any hope of our people having a unified voice for the good of all our people we have to learn to stop this .  Behavior that sets us one against the other makes none of our relations happy.  We have to learn to ignore the ignorant . 

Offline danielle

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2008, 05:06:01 pm »
i`m in south jersey so that aspect of the culture  is extinct to me.......i remember you saying about revival when i came here about dragonswan....long name he had.. hmmm,maybe it was the sweat thread that ray messed up.if i make any mistakes it`s not to be malicious or intentional b/c i understand the importance of accuracy but yup,i make mistakes.... one other problem i have is with the language. only 3 of us have an interest and we don`t get much time together to hone skills..so,i`m making it a habit to pray out loud to creator in the language. i have all the goodies from touching leaves. i found a  college in nebraska with some of nora thompson dean`s herbal instruction...i need to know if it`s authentic tho....i guess i`ll give jim rementer(spelling ?) a shout for that project.maybe he can steer me through it.

thank you,frederica.

Offline Chahta38

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Re: Clean Thread on Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council ..
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2008, 09:41:36 pm »
I don't know Ben personally but he has been helping someone very close to my heart who was in much need of spiritual counciling and guidance.  He has helped and encouraged my friend to become more active in our communities himself.  So I just wanted to say, Thank you Ben for your time, kindness, generosity and devoting yourself to helping so many.