Fake Pipe Carriers

[Manyeagles]

I've been a guest on this site for a wile now, and have made my contributons through others.  But I decided I should add my thougts to this talk.

Censorship is just plain wrong.  Ppl deserve to have their say, evn if you do not like it.  This voice says some true things, even if he does not know how to always say it nice.

I do not like censorship, so I will most likely nt be back.  censorship is wrng and is abuse of power, like whie man.

[Tsisqua]

WOW....Im sorry I dont agree...I believe censorship was justified...this is not a place to come to, merely to attack others. Yes people have the right to an opinion...but one has to hear the opinions of others too...without attacking them or verbally abusing them...something which Voice Of Reason (Quite a strange name considering the tone used) failed to grasp.
Admin do a wonderful job here...as difficult as it must be....and for that...I personally am very grateful...as Im sure are many others.

With Respect,

Tsissy

[educatedindian]

If many are bothered by this, we may split off this topic and start one about what we allow posted in here. So far it seems to be just one person who never joined, before they decided to make that single post saying they wouldn't be back.

"Voice" had been warned a number of times to quit insulting people, then continued to. Half a dozen is more than enough chances.

Incidentally, one person told me they believe that "Voice" was most likely none other than Suzanne Dupree. I'm not sure about that. Dupree couldn't write or reason that well.

[frederica]

She never presented herself the last time, always had someone do it for her. If it is her or a representative for her, I always found it strange they come here instead of going to the L/D/N Nation's Elders or Councils. People that issue a string of personal insults usually have an agenda, cause an argument, be disruptive or just throwing a tantrum. I don't know many legimate Medicine People that would do that.

[NanticokePiney]

   People that issue a string of personal insults usually have an agenda, cause an argument, be disruptive or just throwing a tantrum. I don't know many legimate Medicine People that would do that.

I don't know of any that would do that.

[matt e]

True, to the creator we are all one. meaning we are all his children, thus brothers and sisters, one family. However, all families have members that do things a little different than the rest. Just as a father may teach his children to do different things, to behave and think in such a way that is best for them, so the creator has done with His children.

      To those who seek to honor Him, and follow his ways, He has given the means to do so, as is best for them. To the L/D/N He has given the sacred pipe, and ways and laws for them. To others He has given other things, and ways and laws. Yes, many are similar, for some of His laws are universal, but some are for the people to whom they were given. The issue isn't the use of pipes, but the use of L/D/N pipes and/or ceremony, which only the L/D/N have the right to do.

To each He says "this is how I wish you to honor Me and care for each other" giving specific rules for ceremony, behavior,etc. For someone else to use the tools, or methods of a people not their own is disrespectful not only to the people they have taken from, but to the Creator as well.  To then use these things for personal gain, is sacralige of a high order.
  If the Creator decides that for a particular person, the ways He has given to a particular group is best for that person, then He will send that person to those people, the person will come with humility, willing to learn, to become for all intents and purposes one of those people. And if it be the creators will  for that person, He will also make it known to the people that it is His will for them to embrace this person as one of their own. Such a person would never take what is learned and go out and share it, because it is not the peoples way, and such a person would become in heart, mind and spirit one of the people, such that he/she would take an insult directed at tehe people as a personal insult to themselves.

Yes, there are some things the creator has said can be shared with all, these things however are the universal laws of the creator, to love one another, to help those in need, etc.  But there to say that all the ways of this people, or that people are good for everyone is to assume the role of the One who has the authority to decide what is best for His children.
  To say that it is ok for someone not native to use and share with the general public for a fee or even for free what was given to a people because it was best for them, is to say the creator didn't know what He was doing in giving the people who choose to follow Him and honor Him the ways best suited to them to do this, for His own purposes.

   
 

[Kevin]

I believe the real power of ceremony Indians have is primarily genetic. I've been lucky enough in my day to have seen a bit of it and it's ancient and powerful stuff. It's childish for non-Indian adults to be running around wearing colored chicken feathers and using idiotic names pretending and wishing to be something they can never be no matter how hard they wish and try. Hostility to such poachers is fully justified and the restraint and measured responses coming from the Indians in this forum is commendable to say the least. It seems we have 4 kinds: poachers, those who respect, those who are indifferent but do no harm  and those who are indifferent and will allow harm to be done.

[Chaska]

My Grandfathers told me "When you pray with this Cannupa, and you are praying for the world peoples, you say the words "Two Leggeds", this covers all of them across the waters and them in those territories, so even though we never have met them, we are praying for their health and happiness, where ever they may be....When we pray for all NDN peoples it is different, because their blood is the color in the Pipe, when a NDN persons dies, then that color vanishes and reappears in the stone where the Pipe stone is in the ground.  This Red Stone is only in one place in the entire world, there is no other places where it is....It was placed for us only to use it, placed for us to pray for others and all creations, so when you hold the Cannupa and pray with it, then all the NDN ancestors is in it with you...there are the protocols that must be in place, the language will have the emotion in it, the songs sung with it must have the emotions in it, the prayers must have the emotions in it, that way the Cannupa and the prayer becomes one and has power in it.....these other races have their own ways that come from where their root (country) originated, that is where THEY are connected and that is where their ancestors lay buried.  That is why we NDN do not want to live in any other country's because we are connected here to the power."

[Moma_porcupine]

I was distracted when I wrote my earlier replies, and haven't had time to get back to this till now. As the Voices rationalizations for opposing those who are trying to protect these traditions is so common, I wanted to point out a few more of the ways this so called "voice of reason" doesn't even make sense.

First , maybe it happens, but I have never heard of a person of Native descent who grew up in a Native community being told they were unsuited to assist in traditional ceremonies because they were the wrong color.  With the intermarriage that has happened enrolled community members come in all colors and sometimes traditional leaders don't look Indian. What is important seems to be that people leading traditional ceremonies actually have a life long relationship with a Native community, they are of good character, and it is the Native community that is served by them having a part in maintaining these traditions.

Sometimes I hear Native people try and explain this by saying these traditions don't belong to the White , Black or Yellow Nations, but I suspect what is being said is not that people are being excluded because of physical appearence, but that people cannot be a part of maintaining a collective ancient tradition if they have no real continuously existing  connection with these traditions or the collective culture they belong to. If some people think this is racist, look up the meaning of the word "tradition". A tradition that isn't someones tradition , isn't a tradition . I doubt this is about what color people are. Some of the most respected Elders I know are mixed blood and look White not Indian. What color they are just isn't important to the people in their community.

I have known Elders who were open to inviting non native people to share a Pipe ceremony , and these Elders felt non native people might benefit from this, but I have never known a respected Native person who believed non native people have what it takes to be leading traditional ceremonies. (something non native people for some peculiar reason often feel they need to do )   None of these Elders who were open to including non native people , but who also frowned on non native people leading ceremonies , were racist or unkind to people of different colors . They were just being practical.   

Chaska mentions the importance of language, and I think this is something people who only speak English often fail to understand.

I don't know much about Lakota traditions, and I am wading into something I don't know much about in what I am about to say , but I have heard Elders explain that even simple verbs like "walking" or "eating" can have so many variations in  some Native languages, that a whole chapter of a dictionary would be required to explain them all. Unlike English most Native languages put more of an emphasis on verbs, whereas English is noun orientated.

I have often heard that in many Native languages there is many words which have no English equivalent. Without a word, there isn't even a concept. Which is one reason that these teachings and traditions need to be preserved in the language they originated in. Otherwise it is probably similar to imagining it is possible to teach advanced concepts in physics using the language and concepts of a people who had no use for anything but simple mathamatics.

I may be misunderstanding this, ( if I am wrong hopefully someone will correct me ) but I always had the impression that saying "All my relations" was referring to the behavior (verb ) of having relations and that saying this was more a way of acknowledging duties and obligations to behave properly. 

It seems to be only the New Age people who interpret this word as a noun, which together with the word "my" is imagined to mean that everything which belongs to anyone automatically belongs to everybody else, and anybody who puts up any boundaries is in some way denying the basic interconnection of all living creatures. I think this is not only really distorting the meaning , but it is also completely impractical and unrealistic.

Voice also expressed a lot of other typical fuzzy misconceptions that aren't true but serve to justify attacking traditionalists who are trying to preserve their culture ...   

Voice

It's interesting you bring up buddhism, as this is a spiritual system in which the adherents believe that there are no boundaries to who can practice.

One can follow these ways if they so desire, and there are traditions that go with it, as well.  But these traditions are not exclusionary in any way, shape or form.  A white man or a First Nations person could enter a monastery and begin teachings tomorrow.

I know a number of people in the Buddhist community and there is many boundaries which are very strictly policed.  People must do many years of practice before they have any chance of being accepted as a monk or nun, they must be recommended by a  Spiritual leader who is recognized by the Buddhist community, and this recommendation goes on to be considered by a group of similarly recognized Spiritual leaders and may still be turned down. In fact I know a Native man who wished to become a Buddist monk and even though he had been involved in many Buddhist practices for many years he was told  he had worldly karma he had to work out and the answer was NO. Many Buddhist ceremonies are open only to people who are invited, and people hoping to participate must do whatever is required as preparation and even then any individual may be told they bring something into the ceremony which doesn't serves the purposes of the Buddhist community.

In the case of Buddhism, it isn't necessary to consider personal cultural background, but this isn't because Buddhist traditions allow anyone to do whatever they want. It's because ( as I understand it ) Buddhism seeks to empower the part of human nature which is not identified with any conditional form, identity or cultural background. This is , in it's very essence, a very different practice than when indigenous peoples are trying to maintain uncorrupted cultural traditions and identity. And though it hasn't occured to the all knowing voice of rationalization, I doubt the tradition of the Sacred Pipe just started out of now where.

Voice

So ask yourself, when the first pipe was given to the people, there was no history.  No tradition established.  No connection to the past of the people.  What made this pipe sacred?  What gave this pipe it's life?  What gave it it's ability to heal and bring the people together?

As I understand it, the Red Stone that the Sacred Pipe is made from is said to be the blood of the indigenous People's ancestors, which became the Red Stone. As the Stone existed before any Pipes could be made from it, the traditions that gave birth to the Sacred Pipe, and even how the Pipe came, have their roots in the relationship the People had with the land for many many miilenea. 

Voice

My belief is that this pipe has power because of the *intention* and respect in the hearts of the people who use it.  Which is still true for that pipe today, and is true for all sacred pipes.

Which goes back to my first post.  It is really all about intention and respect.

I also don't understand why, if this is what some people believe, that they feel they need to use Native traditions at all. Why not just take their good intentions and do their own thing, as that is all they seem to think is important.

It seems so incredibly unkind and disrespectful to accuse people taking sensible steps to preserve these traditions of being "greedy" "judgmental" and racist. And calling these accusations  "The voice of reason" just adds insult to injury.

What a bunch of dishonest rationalization and double speak....

Sorry to rant but it's been bugging me all week...

[frederica]

Well, thata was worth waiting for MP.