Author Topic: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif  (Read 11398 times)

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2008, 02:58:42 AM »
Something interesting about Tomas Shash and his church. He had a group of whites teaching wildnerness skills to them.

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http://www.rootsvt.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=88&Itemid=78

"In the late spring of 2007 a man named Tomas Eaglebear came to central Vermont to visit with friends within the community and share native stories, songs, and dance. While here, Sarah and I had the opportunity to meet him and his son, Bear, at a small gathering and sweat lodge ceremony. Tomas is the elder of the Aztlan Native American Cultural Arts Center in Gardner, Colorado. Here he shares traditional wisdom and imparts the core values of his people. During this meeting he came to find out about our school, Roots. He asked us to meet with him to talk about our school and show him and Bear some of our projects and skills. As dinner progressed, Thomas addressed me with a question that cut straight to the heart of things. It was a moment I will not forget, because of the weight and meaning, and of the growing and wonderful relationship that has formed because of it.

Tomas was raised in a Warm Springs Apache family in New Mexico. In his community it was only a generation in the past that the remaining free groups of his people were forced into reservations after a long and brutal war campaign....

Thomas’s request, his question, was: Will Roots come to Colorado, to his community, to teach Apache people what was stolen from them?
 
Mount Blanca, a holy place for the ApacheI knew immediately that this was something I must do. As a long time student of Tom Brown Jr.’s, a large part of my lineage as a student of these skills is through Stalking Wolf, a Lipan Apache....

Now I was being presented with the opportunity to give something back to the grandchildren of some of the last free native people in this country, and I knew that I must. Sarah was in immediate agreement.

And so it was that in mid August, Sarah, our friend Ed Low, and I began the 2400 mile drive west to Gardner, Colorado, to Aztlan. Aztlan is a community of people that Thomas inspired over twenty years ago and in many ways leads, living the traditions and ways their people have held onto. The members of the community are mainly descendants of the Mimbreno Apache and the Mexican Indian people....

To the south is Mount Blanca, an impressive and forceful presence that Thomas informed us is a sacred place for his people, and one to which many still make pilgrimages. He told us the story of the last time he climbed to the tree line lakes with a seventy eight year old man for just such a reason.

We were greeted as if members of the family. Introductions melted quickly into comfortable conversations. As we met members of Aztlan, I was struck by their openness, generosity, and sense of community, as well as by the fact that each of the members is wholly individual, and genuine. That night, we joined in a sweat lodge, the first of three in the short time that we were there....

We moved quickly using demonstration, explanation, and coaching to pass on bow drill, hand drill, dead fall traps and snares, throwing sticks, slings, flint knapping, atl-atl, sensory awareness, stealth movement, bone work and harpoon heads, tracking, cordage, and a variety of odds and ends from the world of traditional skills....

We found that although most of the people in the community are native people, there are also people of all backgrounds held equally by the community, because, as Thomas explains, what makes one a member of Aztlan is not blood, but intention and lifestyle. To choose fully to follow the old ways and to make community and prayer at the forefront of life is the core of what one needs to become a member.

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Yeah, a couple problem with these stories, even beyond something as disturbing as going to white followers of a fraud like Tom Brown.

Mount Blanca was not and is not a sacred site for the Mimbrenos as far as I know. The Chiricahua sacred sites are, naturally, where the Chiricahua homeland was, in the area roughly between Tucson and Nogales.

Mount Blanca is a sacred site for the Dineh, one of their four sacred mountains.

Possibly it may also be a sacred site for the Jicarilla. They're not too far away, and I honestly don't know enough about the sites they held sacred. Maybe also for the Naishan, or Kiowa Apache as most people know them.

I suppose it's possible that Mimbreno or Chiricahua living on Ft Sill might hold Mt Blanca sacred because it's closer than sites in the old homeland.

Most of what I found on Shash shows him giving talks to kids at libraries, plus a few cultural events. I don't think he's a bad person. The ones he's gathered around him seem mostly a bit out of touch. It's the ones he's associated with, Anderson and Yoissef, that are clear frauds and are trying to use him and his church for their own purposes.

Offline Spaewife

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2008, 12:44:58 PM »
dunno something is just off with it all. But I'll wait, truth does what truth wants when it wants to. 

Thanks everyone.

Offline tachia

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2008, 09:14:16 AM »
*snipped for brevity*

Most of what I found on Shash shows him giving talks to kids at libraries, plus a few cultural events. I don't think he's a bad person. The ones he's gathered around him seem mostly a bit out of touch. It's the ones he's associated with, Anderson and Yoissef, that are clear frauds and are trying to use him and his church for their own purposes.

i was going to stay out of this one thinking that someone would come up with the truth on this guy tomas and his "crew" .. .. since no one has .. well .. .. at the very least i do think that this needs MUCH more research .. a lot of questions have need of being asked .. shrug .. the info on the internet is scarce .. yet "stories" of this shash abound .. ..

first let me say that i have met tomas shash and know even more OF him from people that were involved with him and his group .. .. he lives and "operates" in the same area of colorado that i live in ..

 
this guy is NOT merely being "used" by others .. he is really bad news .. he does the whole mix and match thing, a little of this nation, a little of that one, and toss in some new age .. .. in my opinion, he IS a fraud and an exploiter .. .. what i do know of him is my own impression of him when i met him and the stories from the locals around here .. personal experiences are often considered no more than "hearsay" .. and for that reason i will say no more, unless asked to .. suffice it to say that tomas is far better at using others than at being used by them .. just the fact that he associates with known frauds should be a clue as to his own integrity .. ..

al .. i seriously doubt that this guy is Apache, much less anything else he claims, and that list is a bit long as well ..  .. just as an example: he teaches his followers many Apache words etc .. NONE of which are Apache, but rather mostly Lakota and Dine' .. he teaches that the Apache word for Apache is the word Dine' ..  for those of you who do not know, Dine' is the navajo word for themselves in their own language .. .. .. he has also recently attempted to name himself as Sundance Chief, even though he never even bothered to complete his own commitment much less earn that right .. on this he was called out, by a legitimate Sundance Chief, and tomas dropped it as far as i know ..

there are, of course, many more such "pieces" that should raise red flags .. yet as i have spoken .. i cannot back up any of my knowledge of tomas with published information .. any and all information/knowledge that i have of him (and ten rivers) is from my own and others personal experiences .. if it is acceptable in this forum to state personal  experiences of myself and others, i will be glad to do so .. .. .. .. ..

Offline Spaewife

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2008, 07:20:39 PM »
Ok found this.

http://aztlan.us/ 

And a article written on the dance they just had.

http://huerfanojournal.com/extra.php

Sun Dance of the Aztlan
01 - August – 2008
by Clint Boehler

GARDNER- It could have been 1708 or 1808, but from July 13-20 of 2008, the ancient custom of the Native American Sun Dance was held in Huerfano County.  Several miles east of Gardner is a wilderness place called Aztlan.  Aztlan can have many meanings, but one popular definition is a place of new beginnings.  At Aztlan, Indian religious ceremonies are practiced and the old ways are not forgotten.  The Sun Dance is conducted annually here but with one big difference this time.  This ceremony has traditionally excluded non-Indians.  This time a sign along Highway 69 said “Locals welcome, but No Tourists.??? Over 200 people were in attendance.
    As you enter the sacred grounds, you can hear the traditional drum with its ancient beat.  Vehicles are parked a few hundred yards from the ceremonial ring.  Looking at the beauty of the mountains, you feel as if you have been transported back to a very old time.  You enter by a pathway where you are met by a tribal member with a pot of burning embers.  The smoke will purify your spirit before you enter.  You must be humble.  All jewelry, big belt buckles and flashy sunglasses must be concealed.  It is important to show great respect on these grounds.
    The ceremonial ring is about 75 feet in diameter with a twenty-foot pole in the center.  The pole has buffalo hides and symbolic items around the bottom.  Several men, stripped to the waist and wearing red pantaloons dance around the pole.  Soon, one of the men comes closer and the others attach ropes or sinews to his chest with skewers, just above the pectoral muscles.  The dance continues with the central drum picking up a frenzied beat.  Soon the tension on the tether is too great and the bone skewers  pull from the flesh on the man’s chest.  Great celebration is shouted and sung.  This man has showed his great sincerity and spirit.  There are many other meanings to this event as well.  The men with him show scars of a previous Sun Dance, and some of them choose to show their spirit again, this time attaching the lines to their backs, just above the shoulder blades.  All this is done with sincere faith.
    Following this Sun Dance, young women with newborns gather at the pole and priests or shamans come forward and bless the children.  All are in traditional clothing, many wearing garments that are hundreds of years old.
    The basic choreography of the ceremony is based on Lakota style, but Apache, Ute and Diné are the primary tribes represented here. Diné is a term given to those of Apache/Navajo bloodline.  Traditionally, there are at least 25 tribes that have practiced the Sun Dance.
    These ancient rites are conducted for a full week each year and allowing the local public to attend is a huge step in communication.  Being able to witness these great spiritual events is a privilege very few in our urban world get to experience.  In fact, until the early 1900’s the government banned the dance; then non-Indians were excluded if the dance occurred.
    If you want to take a walk to a time transport, watch for notices of the Sun Dance for next year.  It is a religious, educational and spiritual event that should be included in everyone’s life.

Offline shoshone1

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2008, 01:30:47 AM »
that sure doesnt sound like a Lakota ceremony to me ,I have been to alot of Lakota ceremonys ,but never have seen it like its describe in this thread .... Something wrong here ....

Offline Spaewife

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« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 04:31:17 AM by Spaewife »

frederica

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2009, 05:10:34 AM »
Well, that's the Prophecykeepers (Will Scott Anderson) aka "BlueOtter".  Any body that would donate to that group for them to raise $500,000, would need a head examination.

Offline Spaewife

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2009, 06:38:43 PM »
Oh ots gets better.....

on  the ghost dance page..  go to home then down the right side to the archive area til you find ten river's picture.. and click it..    there is a 'interview radio of otter and etc..


I like the ten rivers is spose to be a elder.. and he's maybe i his fourties..?????

(gods I couldn't type OR spell this morning rofl..  sigh)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 10:10:49 PM by Spaewife »

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2009, 02:56:21 AM »
any and all information/knowledge that i have of him (and ten rivers) is from my own and others personal experiences .. if it is acceptable in this forum to state personal  experiences of myself and others, i will be glad to do so .. .. .. .. ..


Of course it's acceptable. Firsthand accounts are very valualbe. And please ask anyone you know who has knowledge of Shash and co to come here and tell us what they know.

Everything that you describe sounds like good reason for caution to me as well. What I'd said before was based on what I'd been able to find so far.

The link originalghostdance...it's hard to know where to begin with his mangling of history. But at least now Anderson is admitting he's basically a Mormon trying to use what he claims are NDN prophecies. This is the first I've seen him claiming to be Powhattan or Shawnee, though he did use to run a fake tribe claiming Pocahontas was Cherokee. First time I've seen him claiming to have a "Viking mother" too. :)

And the conspiracy theories get more and more ridiculous...

Offline wolfhawaii

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2009, 06:04:15 AM »
Scotty is spouting some crazy sheeeit these days......God himself  named him BlueOtter.....Indians are jews......God wants him to be broke so he will fulfill his role as a prophet, but he wants YOU to send him money so his truck don't get repo'd.....sad thing is, there are at least a million wannabe "cherokees" who will fall for this crap.

Offline Spaewife

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2009, 11:51:32 PM »
ya know.. somewhere in that gobbidly goop they have up.  It says they were told to get a 500k grant.. made me want to ask them.. and so why are you asking others for funds if  you are spose to go get a grant???   


frederica

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2009, 12:20:18 AM »
Would you give that group a grant?

Offline Spaewife

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2009, 12:55:23 AM »
Oh Hell NO.  But figure if they want to say that is what they were told to do, perhaps it should be tossed back in their faces that perhaps they should do what they were told. rofl

Offline tachia

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2009, 10:24:37 PM »
spaewife ..
anything new on tomas, atzlan etc? .. perhaps the carnes could shed some much needed light on tomas and this "atzlan group" since they were associated with the "group" for quite some time? .. since you are a friend of theirs, perhaps you could ask them if they would share the information they have on all this with the people in here? .. does ben know who tomas has as a "sundance chief" now that he is not there? .. i know that tomas attempted to declare himself as the "sundance chief" after ben was no longer in that position for tomas .. we were wondering who is doing that for the "group" now ..  .. i think it would be good for the people in here who are questioning all this to hear from someone who had been IN the "atzlan group" for a number of years, firsthand knowledge you know :) ..
 
 i only know of tomas because he lives and operates  in the southern colorado area ..  they had a "group" in the trinidad, co. area about 12 years ago .. i met a  few of those people then, including tomas, nothing about them "set right" with me and i walked away ..  .. since tomas moved his "group" up to the gardner, co. area i have not seen much of him .. i do not go to gardner much, it is a long standing hippie town that has twinkie people that just irritate me, most of them are harmless but they still irritate me, lol .. .. .. .. .. .. every once in a while i run into a young person that has been "taught" by tomas and try to set them straight .. seems to me that they "prey" on young people who are naive and gullible .. this is a tough one because there is not much more to go on but peoples "personal experiences" with that "group" .. last summer they actually placed a sign on the highway "advertising" their "sundance" .. they plastered the surrounding towns with flyers for the “sundance” as well .. geeeesh .. people like this need to be stopped .. we should not let this go .. what can we do? .. i brought this up because last week we ran into yet another young man who had been misled by the "teachings" of tomas .. .. .. .. ..

Offline tachia

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Re: Jimmy 'Tenrivers', Maggid ben Yoseif
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2009, 09:36:10 PM »
if spaewife is reluctant to ask the carnes to reply to this with their firsthand knowledge of it all .. .. perhaps some of the carnes "other friends" could speak with them and see if we could get  some information on all this?? ..