Author Topic: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp  (Read 24266 times)

Offline educatedindian

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Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« on: November 14, 2007, 03:03:04 am »
Allegedly a Crow and former tribal council member selling sweats and NDN names in Austria. Looking at the photo of his homepage with what looks to be an Austrian woman who is a bit older, I wonder if he fell into a situation that Annika described to me that happens to many NDN men in Europe, basically being a trophy NDN husband of an older very controlling Euro woman.

Thread on him at Indianz.
 http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=29420

All the sites are in German.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22benjamin+joseph+cloud&hl=en&safe=off&filter=0

Google translation of http://www.trafo.or.at/Seiten/ueberuns/ben.html

Indian Name: Baashxaalia (Old Feather / Old spring)
Clanzugehörigkeit: Big Lodge Clan der Crow Clan affiliation: Big Lodge Clan of the Crow

Crow Sonnentanzhäuptling und spiritueller Führer Crow Sun Dance chief and spiritual leader
Crow und Lakota Sonnentanzleiter Crow and Lakota sun dance director
Hüter der Schwitzhütte und Mitglied der Sweatlodge Society Guardian of Schwitzhütte and member of the Sweat Lodge Society
Schwitzhüttenleiter und -bauer Schwitzhüttenleiter and -bauer
Hüter des "Sacred Tail Feather Bustle" Guardians of the "Sacred Tail Feather Bustle"
Abgeordneter und Vertreter des Arrow Creek Districts im Parlament der Crow Members and representatives of the Arrow Creek Districts in the Parliament of the Crow
Ben ist Crow Indianer, einem aus 12.000 Mitgliedern bestehendem Northern Plains Stamm, der heute im Reservat der Crow in Montana, USA, ansässig ist. Ben's Crow Indians, one of 12,000 members existing Northern Plains tribe, now in the Crow reservation in Montana, USA, is established. Mütterlicherseits hat er Lakotaverwandte und väterleicherseits Verwandte des Cheyenne Stammes. Mütterlicherseits he Lakotaverwandte and väterleicherseits relatives of the Cheyenne tribe.

Die seit Generationen gelebten Traditionen wurden Ben von Kind auf von den Ältesten der Familie und Angehörigen seines Clans gelehrt. The lived for generations of traditions were Ben child on the elders of the family and members of his clan taught. Als junger Mann wurde Ben in die "Hot Dance Society" der Männer aufgenommen und hat seit dieser Zeit viele der traditionellen Tänze der Crow gelernt und ausgeübt. As a young man, Ben was in the "Hot Dance Society" of men and has since that time many of the traditional dances of the Crow learned and exercised. Mit 15 nahm er an seinem ersten Sonnentanz teil und erhielt in diesem die "Alten Federn" seines Urgroßvaters Joe Hill. By 15, he participated in his first sun dance, and this was the "old springs" of his great-grandfather Joe Hill. Es sind diese, die "Alten Federn", nach denen er kurz nach seiner Geburt seinen Namen erhielt. It is these, the "old springs", after which he briefly after his birth received its name. Mit 17 ging Ben auf seine erste Visionssuche und viele weitere sollten folgen. With 17 went Ben on his first vision of search and many more should follow.

In Bens Kindheit begann sein Onkel Larson T. Medicinehorse ihn in spirituellen Angelegenheiten zu lehren. In Ben's childhood began his uncle Larson T. Medicine Horse him in spiritual matters to teach. Im Jahre 1989 erhielt Ben das Recht, Schwitzhütten zu besitzen, zu leiten und zu erbauen und damit begann seine intensive spirituelle Reise. The year 1989 was the right Ben, Schwitzhütten to own, manage and build, and thus began his intense spiritual journey.

1991 wählte sein Großvater Thomas Medicinehorse ihn als Hüter des "Sacred Tail Feather Bustle" für den Blacklodge Distrikt und gab ihm seine Art der Gesichtsbemalung. 1991 chose his grandfather Thomas Medicine Horse him as a guardian of the "Sacred Bustle Tail Feather" for the Black Lodge district and gave him his kind of face painting. Ben erhielt damit das Recht, am "Sacred Daytime Ceremonial Dance" der Männer zu partizipieren, eine sehr alte Gebetszeremonie die jährlich zum Zwecke des Wohlergehens der Crow abgehalten wird. Ben received for the right to participate in the "Daytime Sacred Ceremonial Dance" of men to participate, a very old prayer ceremony annually for the purpose of the welfare of Crow is held.

1995 erhielt Ben sein persönliches Lied von einem legendären Hüter der Lieder, Cedric Walks Over The Ice (Child of the Mountain). 1995 was Ben's personal song of a legendary guardians of the songs, Cedric Walks Over The Ice (Child of the Mountain). Im selben Jahr erhielt er Medizin Federn , die ihm erlaubten, für Menschen im Crow Sonnentanz zu beten. In the same year he received medical springs, which allowed him, for people in Crow sun dance to pray.

Eine der größten Ehren in Ben's langen Lehrjahren erhielt er im Jahre 1999, als er von seinen Onkeln Larson T. Medicinehorse und Donald Medicinehorse als Hüter des heiligen "Medicinehorse Sonnentanz Medizinbündels" ausgewählt wurde. One of the greatest honors in Ben's long years of teaching, he received in 1999, when he was by his uncles Larson T. Medicine Horse and Donald Medicine Horse as a guardian of the holy "Medicine Horse sun dance medicine bundle" has been selected. Dieses Medizinbündel erlaubt es ihm seit dem, den Crow Sonnentanz mit allen einher gehenden Zeremonien zu leiten und des weiteren Heilungszeremonien (z.B. Bündelöffnungszeremonien) abzuhalten. This medicine bundle allows him since the Crow sun dance with all the accompanying ceremonies to initiate and further healing ceremonies (eg bundle opening ceremonies) hold. In jenem Sommer wurde er erstmals um Leitung eines Sonnentanzes gebeten und damit Menschen in spiritueller Weise zu helfen. In that first summer, he was led to a sun dance and asked people in a spiritual way to help.

Bis zu dieser Zeit arbeitete Ben über 20 Jahre außerhalb des Reservates bei einer großen Tageszeitung in Billings/Montana. Up to this time, Ben about 20 years out of the reserve at a major daily newspaper in Billings / Montana. Im Jahr 2000 verließ er diese Arbeit, denn er wollte seinem Volk intensiver zu Seite stehen. In 2000, he left this job because he wanted his people to intense side. 2001 wurde die traditionelle Ratsform des Crow Parlaments durch eine demokratische Regierungsform abgelöst. 2001, the traditional council form of the Crow Parliament through a democratic form of government replaced. Ben wurde als Abgeordneter des Arrow Creek Districts in das eigenständige Parlament der Crow gewählt, und arbeitete dort in seinem ersten Jahr als Sprecher der Legislative. Ben was a member of the Arrow Creek Districts in the autonomous parliament of the Crow elected, and worked there, in his first year as speaker of the Legislature.

Einen Sommer später, im Jahre 2002, wurde Ben zum Leiter des Lakota Sonnentanzes der Familie Medicinehorse gewählt, unter der Anleitung seiner Onkel Larson T. Medicinehorse und Donald Medicinehorse und Rick Two Dog, einem Lakota Indianer und ebenfalls Onkel von Ben. One summer later, in 2002, Ben was the leader of the Lakota sun dance of the Family Medicine Horse elected, under the guidance of his uncle Larson T. Medicine Horse and Donald Medicine Horse and Rick Two Dog, a Lakota Indians, and also from Uncle Ben. Diese Sonnentanzzeremonie hat ihren Ursprung im Land der Lakota (Sioux), wo auch die Familie Medicinehorse ihre Wurzeln hat: ein Urgroßvater von Ben heiratete damals eine Crow Frau und siedelte nach Montana. This sun dance ceremony has its origin in the land of the Lakota (Sioux), where the family has its roots Medicine Horse, a great-grandfather of Ben Crow married at the time one woman and moved to Montana.

Im Sommer 2003 wurde der besondere Sonnentanzaltar des Chief Medicinehorse an Larson T. Medicinehorse durch Rick Two Dog überreicht und Ben erhielt damit das Recht, von nun an diesen Altar im Lakota Sonnentanz zu verwenden. In the summer of 2003, the special sun dance altar of the Chief of Medicine Horse Larson T. Medicine Horse by Rick Two Dog over and Ben was the right, from now on the altar in the Lakota sun dance.

Im Oktober 2003 erhielt Ben von Bill Lincoln die Bärenmedizin in einer heiligen Zeremonie, eine Medizin, die ihm weitere Heilungsweisen innerhalb der Schwitzhütte ermöglicht. In October 2003, Ben Bill of the Lincoln bear medicine in a sacred ceremony, a medicine to him further healing within the Schwitzhütte.

Ben reist seit einigen Jahren zu verschiedenen Gelegenheiten nach Europa und hat dort traditionelle Tänze aufgeführt, Zeremonien abgehalten und Workshops zur Lebensweise und Spiritualität der Crow gegeben. Ben travels for several years on various occasions after Europe, and there has performed traditional dances, ceremonies and held workshops on life and spirituality of Crow. Im Sommer 2002 begegnete er Katja Schneider und bat sie, seinen Lebensweg mit ihm zu teilen. In the summer of 2002, he met Katja Schneider and asked them to his life with him. Beide heirateten ein Jahr später in Deutschland und traditionell in Montana und werden in Montana im Land der Crow leben und arbeiten. Both were married a year later in Germany and traditionally in Montana in Montana and are in the land of the Crow live and work.

Katja Babette Cloud Katja Babette Cloud

Indianischer Name: Alachiwakíiaóolabish Indian Name: Alachiwakíiaóolabish
(Die, die ihren Weg gefunden hat) (Those who found their way)

Katja, geborene Deutsche, ist als Diplomatentochter aufgewachsen und verbrachte ihre Kindheit im Ausland, vorrangig in England und in Japan. Katja, born German, is a diplomat's daughter grew up and spent her childhood abroad, mainly in England and Japan. Sie ist Sonnentänzerin, Trägerin der heiligen Pfeife und Schwitzhüttenleiterin und hat als Sonnentänzerin von den Crow das "Recht" erteilt bekommen, Ben bei seinen Zeremonien zur Seite zu stehen. She is sun dancer, winner of the sacred pipe and Schwitzhüttenleiterin and has a sun dancer from the Crow the "right" granted get Ben in his ceremonies to the site to stand. Sie spricht fließend Deutsch und Englisch und ermöglicht es Ben, auch im deutschsprachigen Raum zu kommunizieren und die Erfahrungen, die sie als Europäerin auf dem Reservat macht, weiterzugeben. She speaks fluent German and English, allowing Ben, also in the German-speaking area and to communicate the experience acquired as a European woman on the reserve, the Contract. Seit Juni 2003 ist sie mit Ben Cloud verheiratet. Since June 2003, she was married to Ben Cloud.

Sie fühlen sich der gemeinsamen Lebensaufgabe verpflichtet, ihr traditionelles und spirituelles Wissen weiterzugeben und Menschen zu helfen. You feel the common life committed their traditional and spiritual knowledge and people to help.

Larson T. Medicinehorse, seine Frau Patti und Donald Medicinehorse unterstützen die Beiden auf ihrem Weg des Lehrens, Anleitens und Teilens des Medicinehorse Weges in Europa. Larson T. Medicine Horse, his wife Patti and Donald Medicine Horse support the pair on their way of teaching, Anleitens and sharing of Medicine Horse trail in Europe.

Aber nicht nur in Europa, auch bei den Crow wird viel Hilfe benötigt. But not only in Europe, even among the Crow is a lot of help is needed. Deshalb initiieren die Beiden derzeit neue Projekte im Reservat in Sachen Jugendarbeit, Schaffung neuer Arbeitsplätze und Erhaltung der Crow Indianischen Tradition. Therefore initiate the two new projects currently in reserve in youth work, the creation of new jobs and preservation of the Crow Indian tradition.

Aho


Offline Cetan

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2007, 04:33:35 am »
Blame it on the winyan
But seriously it was disturbing to see Rick Two Dog mentioned as a "teacher" and having given a Sundance altar to this guy since Rick is known to be quite strict with his Lakota only policies

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2007, 02:12:28 pm »
I have done another translation of the Cloud intro. This text and the photos were to be found at Cloud's website, http://www.oldfeather.de, which used to be available until spring/summer 2007. It has been taken down since, and you will only get a server's note that the site is 'under construction'.

Oldfeather's site did not only have this intro/curriculum vitae, but also some information on events coming up, i.e. ceremonies offered by him.

Cloud presumably sees to it that the number of ceremonies he does showing up in the internet is limited. There are, however, a few sites which link his former site, like Austrian trafo. the Cloud family does not live in Austria, but in Germany, in the federal state of Northrhine-Westfalia.

One of the persons maintaining the trafo site, by the name of Sabine, intervened when Cloud's activities were being discussed on a German language forum, and apparently a few of his followers have also joined in on and off, complaining we were judging someone we never met in person and what great personality Cloud was. (I can provide the link, but it's in German, by now some 8 pages of 'discussion' and, mainly, bickering.)

Here's the above text again:

"Indian Name: Baashxaalia (Old Feather)
Clan affiliation: Big Lodge Clan of the Crow
Crow Sun Dance chief and spiritual leader
Crow and Lakota Sun Dance Leader
Keeper of the Sweatlodge and member of the Sweatlodge Society
Sweatlodge leader and builder
Keeper of the 'Sacred Tail Feather Bustle'
Representative of Arrow Creek District in Crow Parliament

Ben is a Crow Indian, a Northern Plains tribe of 12,000 members, today living in the Crow reservation in Montana/USA. From his mother's side, he has got Lakota relatives and from his father's side, he has got relatives with the Cheyenne tribe.

Ben was taught the traditions obeyed for generations when still a child, by the elders of his family and clan. When a young man, Ben was accepted into the "Hot Dance Society" of the men and since that time he has learned and practiced many of the tradtional dances of the Crow. At the age of 15, he participated in his first Sun Dance and received the 'Old Feathers' of his great-grandfather Joe Hill. It is these 'old feathers' he was named after short time after his birth. At the age of 17, Ben did his first vision quest and many more followed.

During Ben's childhood, his uncle Larson T. Medicinehorse started teaching him in spiritual matters. In 1989 Ben received the right to own sweatlodges, lead and build them, and this is when his intense spiritual journey started.

In 1991 his grandfather Thomas Medicinehorse chose him as a keeper of the 'Sacred Tail Feather Bustle' for the Blacklodge District and gave him his way of face painting. With this, Ben received the right to participate in the 'Sacred Daytime Ceremonial Dance' of the men, a very ancient prayer ceremony which is held annually for the wellbeing of the Crow.

In 1995, Ben received his personal song from a legendary keeper of songs, Cedric Walks Over The Ice (Child of the Mountain). In the same year, he also received medicine feathers which allow him to pray for persons during the Crow Sun Dance.

Ben received one of the greatest honours during his long years of apprenticeship in 1999, when his uncles Larson T. Medicinehorse and Donald Medicinehorse chose him for a keeper of the sacred 'Medicinehorse Sun Dance medicine bundle'. This medicine bundle allows him to lead a Crow Sun Dance with all accompanying ceremonies and do further healing ceremonies (e.g. bundle opening ceremonies). During that summer, he was asked to lead a sun dance for the first time and thus help people in a spiritual way.

Up to that time, Ben had been working off the reservation with a large daily newspaper in Billings/Montana. In 2000, he left this job as he planned to assist his people. In 2001, the traditional form of a council of the Crow parliament was abolished in favour of a more democratic form of government. Ben became a representative of the Arrow Creek District in the separate Crow parliament and, during his first year, served as a speaker of the legislature.

During the summer of the following year, in 2002, Ben became a leader of the Lakota Sun Dance of the Medicinehorse family, under the guidance of his uncles Larson T. Medicinehorse and Donald Medicinehorse, and Rick Two Dog, a Lakota Indian and likewise an uncle of Ben's. This Sun Dance ceremony has its origin in the land of the Lakota (Sioux), where the Medcinehorse family has got its roots: one of Ben's great-grandfathers married a Crow woman and settled down in Montana.

In the summer of 2003, Rick Two Dog gave the special Sun Dance altar of Chief Medicinehorse to Larson T. Medicinehorse, and with this, Ben received the right to use this altar in the Lakota Sun Dance.

In October 2003, Ben was given the bear medicine by Bill Lincoln in a sacred ceremony, a medicine which gives him further ways of healing within the sweatlodge.

Since some years, Ben has taken up traveling to Europe for various occasions and performed traditional dances there, did ceremonies and workshops on the way of life and spirituality of the Crow. In summer 2002, he met Katja Schneider and asked her to share his life with him. They married a year later in Germany and traditionally in Montana, and they will live and work in Montana in the land of the Crow.

Katja Babette Cloud  
 
Indian name: Alachiwakíiaóolabish (She Found Her Way)

Katja, born a German, grew up as a diplomat's daughter and spent her childhood abroad, mostly in England and Japan. She is a Sun Dancer, Carrier of the sacred pipe and sweatlodge leader and, as a sun dancer, received the 'right' to assist Ben with his ceremonies by the Crow. She is fluent in German and English and enables Ben to communicate in German-speaking regions and passes on her experience as a European on the reservation. Since June 2003, she is married to Ben Cloud.

They feel committed to their mutual task in life to pass on their traditional and spiritual knowledge and help people.

Larson T. Medicinehorse, his wife Patty, and Donald Medicinehorse support these two on their path of teaching and sharing in Europe.

But not just in Europe, there is also much help needed with the Crow [translator's note: the German sentence is worded quite ambiguous and may also be interpreted as: much help is not only needed in Europe, but alo in Crow country]. Therefore, the two initiate new projects on the reservation in the fields of jobs for young people, creating new jobs and preservation of the Crow Indian traditions."

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2007, 02:21:06 pm »
Here are a few further results which come up googling 'Oldfeather':

This is 'Albert Schweizer House' in the town of Bonn, announcing an 'Indian healing ceremony' with Cloud:
http://www.ashbonn.de/index.php?vid=67&tag=01&monat=10&jahr=2007&id=3&alle=1&PHPSESSID=4fc3a84b116d93e23e6c2087d990b54b

March 20, 2008
7 p.m. to 11 p.m.
Ben Oldfeather Cloud from Montana/USA

Indian Healing Ceremony

"Ben Oldfeather Cloud is an Apsalooke, a Crow Indian of a tribe living in Montana/USA. He grew up in a family which has been in Indian healing and spirituality for generations. His life has been tightly connected to the sun dance since his childhood. After many years of being taught, he was chosen for a chief of the Crow-Shoshoni sundance in 1999. Since then, Ben leads sundances of the tribe every year. [...] ... on a special place at the Crow Indian Reservation in Montana. The sundance is only practiced there, to honour the ancestors. Today, Ben is one of the six recognized sundance chiefs of his people. Ben lives and works as a spiritual teacher and healer in Montana and Europe.

For this evening, we cordially invite you to participate in a healing ceremony of a special kind, a so-called bundle opening ceremony in the tradition of the Medicine Horse family from Montana/USA.

During this intense ceremony, Ben Cloud will open his sacred bundle and, with the help of the power of the sundance medicine, pray for healing for all participants. Ben will put up his buffalo altar, at which he and some of the participants will be placed. On this altar, he will open the bundle and pray. He will gather strength until the ceremony leads over to the actual healing. During this part of the evening, every participant will be given the possibility to step up to Ben at the sacred altar and receive treatment. In order to effect this, Ben will change into the shamanic state of consciousness, and will see and feel imbalances on a spiritual, emotional, physical and mental level. These imbalances which may be there in energetic form or perhaps already as a manifest illness, Ben will banish with the help of his feathers and the power of the sundance medicine. And he will pray for every participant to "Akbaadatdila", the creator.

From his uncle and teacher Larson Medicinehorse and from his relatives in Montana, Ben received permission to do such a ceremony outside the reservation and to open his bundle.
Katja und Ben Oldfeather Cloud

The ceremony will last 3 to 4 hours. There will be singing and drumming during all this time. Persons owning hand drums may bring those along.
Further info: Albert-Schweitzer-Haus, Tel.: 0228 - 36 47 37

Fee: € 60, for those participating again: € 40
children up to 12 years: € 15
children under the age of 6: free entry
Further info:  www.oldfeather.de
contact: Cloud family  0162 - 680 21 87"



This is another invitation to a ceremony which already took place in September 2007. It was organized at the premises of Rabenluft-Institut (raven's air institute) in the town of Witten (this is in the same region as Bonn)
http://www.rabenluft.de/kursprogramm/

"Indian Healing Ceremony
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007, 8 p.m.
Fee: € 60
leader: Ben Oldfeather Cloud from Montana USA
Description: This healing ceremony is a so-called bundle opening ceremony in the tradition of the Medicine Horse family from Montana.
[The inviation is the same as for the above advertised ceremony]


Another one for a sweatlodge earlier this year:

http://compu-media.de/html/veranstaltungen.html

"Sweatlodge
Feb 3, 2007, 11 a.m.
Sweatlodge with Ben "Oldfeather" Cloud"


The following is the website of a young German by the name of Jens F. who claims to be a pipe carrier and sweatlodge leader, having been taught by Cloud and 'authorized' by Larson Medicinehorse:

http://www.hueterderpfeife.de

excerpt:
"- 2 years' training in Core Shamanism [...]
- magic ritual experience through feast of the circle of the year and shamanic work
- sun dancer in the tradition of the Apsalooke (Crow natives] and the Lakota, and therefore pipe carrier
- since summer 2005 sweatlodge leader (authorized by Larson T. Medicinehorse)"

"Through an Indian Summer Camp, which is being organised regularly since many years at 'Forsthaus Scheuren' in the Eifel region by Roland, I first came into contact with "Ben Oldfeather Cloud", a sundance chief and spiritual leader of the Crow Indians from Montana/USA."

"Because of the great friendship that developed between me and Ben, I had the possibility to travel to his tribe to Montana in the summer of 2003 to participate in a Lakota sundance there. This is one of the most sacred ceremonies for the Plains Indians [...]

As a sun dancer and thus having become a warrior, I am also a "pipe carrier". I received the pipe in a sun dance and it is also one of the most sacred items for Indians. It is being used for all prayers and ceremonies, like e.g. sweatlodges and healing ceremonies, as the smoke going up takes the prayers to creator.

In July 2005, I was authorized as a sweatlodge leader by Larson T. Medicinehorse, a sun dance chief of the Crow and Lakota.

Over the time I got the feeling I was geting into a phase of change and I was soon to realize that my spirits prepared the way to my second sun dance. So I went on another 'pilgrimage' to Montana to participate in a Crow sun dance. This was the peak of my 'metamorphosis' and I received the message that my way of spiritual work should also change. Therefore, I now concentrated on bringing the sweatlodge ceremony to people."

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2007, 04:11:08 pm »
This URL will take you to the forum of www.indianer-web.de where Cloud has been discussed:

http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/forum.php?action=ubb_show&entryid=1094056167&mainid=1094056167&USER=user_288051&threadid=2


Below are a few entries by persons having been taught by Cloud:


Jens, Feb 25 2006, 14:20

"If you happen to know it all, then I'd recommend you to talk to Ben and Katja Cloud personally. What's written can't be taken back.To be projudiced is one thing, but I read in your comments that you are against prejudice, clichees and exploitation. What a pity! [sic!] I'm politically active, too (Society for Endangered Peoples) and was invited to visit the Crow Agensy [sic], was in the Crow's environment and with the Larsen [sic] Medicinhorse family.
If you want to comment, be factual.
One can do much damage with such things.
Jens"

[I presume this is the same young man who calls himself an 'auhtorized'
sweatlodge leader, a sun dancer, and pipe carrier and maintains the site
mentioned in my above posting.]


        
Carmen
Mar 16, 2006, 16:48

"Hey, you [...], which institution did you escape from?
In your profile, there's the wise proverb never to judge a person before you walked in their mocassins. You should keep that in mind! [...] What you and other wannabe shamans say here is nothing but speculation and, as far as your conversation with Ben is concerned, pure lie!!! Why don't you contact Ben and his wife personally instead of putting your trash up in the internet?
[...] People like you are simply ill and should wear dunce caps so that everybody knows.
No harm meant.
I have known Ben and his wife for years and know that the facts are completely different."


Carmen
Mar 16, 2006 , 17:36

[This refers to a posting by a German living in the USA who is married to an
ndn participating in the Two Dog sund dances. She said that the Two Dog
dances strictly exclude non-natives and that she knows this because her
husband participated in these.]

"Hi T...,
great you say yourself you don't know 'these people' and to leave a judgment of them to 'the natives'. That's so true, although some of the busybodies in this forum go out of their way and pass judgements by the minute.
To get to the facts: the Rick Two Dog sun dance at Pine Ridge rez hasn't got anything to do with the sun dance of Medicinehorse Larson [sic] at the Crow rez. Despite this, Ben Cloud leads the Lakota-style sun dance for the Medicinehorse family in Crow Agency in the presence of Rick Two Dog as well as Crwo-style sun dances in Prior and elsewhere at the Crow rez (which include women and foreigners). He participates in the sun dances of Rick Two Dog at Pine Ridge rez as a dancer (and women and foreigners are not allowed there).

Every coin has got two sides: so of course there are those pro and those contra opening to white persons among natives, as conservatives who want to exlude all non-natives.

It is a fact, however, that only an opening to the outside can bring mutual understanding and a peaceful life with each other. This has been one of the issues of the Medicinehorse family and others since many years.

Therefore I hope that certain persons will have enough courage not to hide behind a.k.a.s and as know-it-alls judge others, but to use their energies to make a constructive contribution for a shared, healthy world based on understanding.

Forums like this one should contribute to keep our world, but not to do damage through thoughtless remarks or even ill-meaning defamation.

It's great your husband participates in Rick Two Dog's sun dances every year. So he will certainly have met Ben Cloud in person or meet him there this summer. Meeting Ben Cloud will also be a true enrichment for your husband (in a spiritual sense) and take him quite a way on on his personal path."

        
        
Carmen
Mar 16, 2006, 17:52

quote by Shoshanna:
"... there is much suffering behind this wonderful marriage..., as Ben has left his former Crow wife for a very young German whom he met during an information tour in Germany which was organized by his German friends...As far as I know, he is also controversial at home...."

"Hey you, with that wonderful name,
where did you get your wisdom from? What has Ben Cloud's marriage, or his former marriage, to do with his spiritual  calling? Marriages break up everywhere. In Crow [sic] just like everywhere else in the world.If you drag in highly private matters, you should have the courage of not hiding behind an Indian a.k.a. [translator's note: Carmen did not realise that Shoshanna is Hebrew, not ndn] Or do you happen to be the 'woman left behind'?

Stick to the facts.
Ben Cloud and his German wife contribute much more to an understanding between peoples than a 'Shoshanna' ever will be able to. 'Suffering' for persons is caused by evil-minded defamation and unfounded assumptions."


Carmen
Mar 16, 2006, 18:03

[in reply to another forum member who is likewise married in the States who
commented that Cloud is a sell-out and assumed that his German wife was
behind this]

"Hi P...,
what 'that man' does is everything else but selling out [...] Perhaps you can give honest  facts for your assumption? Do you happen to know Ben and his wife in person? I assume you don't. Otherwise you couldn't even think of such things, let alone write them in a forum - even if cowardly under an a.k.a. [translator's note: Carmen again did not realise this person uses her real-life first name as a nick]

I'm really ashamed to be German. Because this way Ben will see that unfortunately not many Germans are open and honest and he will see that apparently many Germans have nothing better to do than to defame others."


        
VVOX
Mar 16, 2006, 21:42

"Quite right, what's all this about?
Witch hunt?
Yes, always emphasize the negative, and always mingle into other persons' business. Typically German!?
I'm fed up with persons who want school masters and even more fed with with traditionalists. [...]
We should be grateful there are persons like Ben who share their knowledge and talents with us. Likewise for every shaman, medicineman, healer. Be it an Indian from Brazil or Peru. Or shamans from Siberia, as we apparently do not have such thing as a culture and don't know about healing (which comes from 'Saint').
I know there are many persons who are grateful to Ben for their healing"


Sabrina
Marc 19, 2006 - 11:01

"Hi everybody,

I've read your contributions thoroughly and I've got some questions:
1) Shaman - this word comes from Siberia, what has it got to do with Indians?
2) ceremonies and sweatlodges have been done and are being done in the European cultural region, too. They are called earth lodges and the prayers and songs are done in a different language than with the Indian peoples.
3) For some 10 years, I've got Indian friends who keep coming to Europe to work with people and talk to them. Something that was always important for me with these contacts and still is, these Indian persons I know share their knowledge with us, and they see this as a contribution to help Europeans to help themselves.

I don't know whether anybody in this forum has ever dealt with the European roots of human beings [...]. If you do, you will realize that our roots differ only slightly from especially those of the North American natives.

In our culture, we had sweatlodges, sun dances, medicine wheels, animal friends, spirits, persons who were able to talk to the spirits, and we had persons with knowledge about herbs, we had healers and sorcerers.
The inquisition worked well. Here in Europe way longer than in the USA. [my note: a few history lessons might do Sabrina much good....]
Here, almost everything got wiped out - even though bits and pieces survived here and there, and when you seriously look for it, you will find it.

I also think that it is important for the further existence of humankind - and we all happen to be humans -, no matter which nation we're from or which colour our skin has - that knowledge gets exchanged.

Respect is very important, and to know who I am is important. I'm not native, I won't be in this life, but I am interested in Indian culture [sic].

I want to come out of the closet, as my website has been mentioned here: you will find me at  www.trafo.or.at

And yes, we do a shamanic training series lasting two years. This training never claims that one will be a shaman in the end.

It is very clear to me and the woman who does this training that a shaman gets called only by the spirits. It is, however, possible to teach shamanic techniques like drum travels, or oracle techniques, and others, which everybody can learn. No person doing our seminar goes out and calls themselves a shaman. If they do, they are responsible themselves. We see this trainig as help to help oneself [translator's note: this phrase is really popular...]

If you take a look at more offers re these issues, you will realize that our fees are very modest. In reality, we earn about nothing with these seminars.

My husband holds a job [translator's note: the German expression may mean a sales person, or a maintenance person], and I am a mother of three and work in a restaurant on and off. We cannot make a living on the seminars, and we don't want to, we do this out of our conviction that it is important for the further existence of humankind to share knowledge about life and death, god and everything which is possible between heaven and earth.

As far as our summer camp with Ben Cloud is concerned, participants there do NOT pay for the ceremonies. For the night of healing, a DONATION is considered appropriate, and particpants can decide how much they want to give. The cost mentioned at our site are for the premises which we've got to rent, for the materials we offer there and for everything else which costs money these days.
We also point out that this camp is also about our own culture which unfortunately still gets treated badly. Ben is there as a guest, as a teacher, and as a friend. So what's about it if he shares his knowledge with us?
If there's some money left at the end of the day, after all costs have been paid for, then Ben gets half of it for the Crow reservation.
Oh and a woman cannot become a pipe carrier with the Crow, or a leader of sweatlodges. These rights, however, are given to the wife maried to a man who got these rights. As far as I know, this is a Crow tradition.

My own sweatlodge authorization I received from a Lakota. I didn't just quickly 'sweat' for a few weekends, I assisted and learned for a full seven years.

As far as the sell-out of Indian spirituality is concerned, I think it is far worse that there are so many non-Indians who dress up as Indians and pretend they were, and present themselves as Indian at powwows and fairs. [...]

I respect persons who realized that everything that separates, like 'it's my religion, my culture, my knowledge. and I won't share with anybody', will only create more pain and war, although war rages everywhere already.
We are all human, born by the same mother, nourished by one earth, carried by one power, no matter how many different names there are for this.

As long as such 'separating' thoughts and things are more important to us than those which connect us, there will always be war, contempt, suffering, and pain.

Therefore I bow to persons who've got the courage to share their knowledge and strength, who are prepared to walk their path and let others participate in it. [...]"

Offline earthw7

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2007, 05:26:36 pm »
I am coping this because Rick two Dog is here my reservation today and show him this. Then i am waiting for a call from my cousin who is married to a medicine horse from Crow.
They would be shocked that this is being done in Europe will post later.
In Spirit

Offline earthw7

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2007, 05:42:11 pm »
talking with my cousin said the Bennie is her husband's nephew. They are shock that he is doing this in Europe. She said to give her copies of the stuff from this site and she is going show her husband Don Medicine Horse.
In Spirit

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2007, 01:28:08 pm »
This is some info on the summer camp organized in Austria. Please note that there are fees due for the camp, while accom and food will be charged additionally. The ad for next year's camp mentions an increased popularity of this annual camp so that the number of participants has to be limited. Adults will pay EURO 233 for a week (the Austrian site links to two photo galleries taken in the 2004 and 2005 camps at the bottom of the page; the pictures may give an impression of the number of participants). Please also bear in mind that one of the organizers complained to the audience in that German language forum mentioned above that they make nothing in the way of a profit, and that monies left at the end of the camp will apparently be split in two with Cloud receiving 50% of leftovers 'for the Crow reservation'. Earth - can you probably check with your friends whether the rez did receive any such money from Cloud?


http://www.trafo.or.at/Seiten/Angebot/SpiritCamp.html

"Spiritcamp 2008

Date: Sun July 27 -. Sun Aug 3, 2008
Place:: Berghaus Zimba Bürserberg/Hochplateau Tschengla auf 1200m Seehöhe

Please note: due to our camp's ever increasing popularity, we decided to limit the number of participants. This will guarantee the same level of intensity and quality of the camp. Admission will be granted according to date of application. Please book well in advance.

The Spiritcamp is a long week of experience and nature for adults and children. Families are welcome.

The place of the camp on the Tschengla plateau offers ideal surroundings during these days. There's a stone circle at Buerserberg in the vicinity of the camp, as well as beautiful moors with rare plants and flowers.
The Roonalpe with excellent milk and cheese products is also easily to be reached.

The Spiritcamp will be lead by:
Ben Old Feather Cloud and Katja Cloud with Lukas (age 4)

Sabrina and Marcel Dengel with Fabian (age 14), Martin (age 12) and Jeramis (age 3)

The Spiritcamp programme refers to the Indian culture of the Crow Indians as well as to our native roots here in the region of the Alp mountains.

We will great the day in the early morning hours with yoga.

Shamanic traveling, sweatlodges, experiencing nature, working with and producing of items of power and ritual items, ceremonies and much more will accompany us during these days.

Further possibilities the camp offers:
- Indian name giving (donating blankets, tobacco and cloth as a gift is usual); the names will be given to Ben in a sort of meditation which may also last longer (up to one year)
- Authorizations for sweatlodges may be inquired about (but not acquired), a respective training takes several years.
- Initiation for men and women (please inquire about initiation for children and teens in advance); this is not just an Indian ritual
- ceremony of healing (on this day, visitors are welcome from 5 p.m., donations for the ceremony are expected).

There will be a Giveaway at the last day. This is a ceremony of exchanging gifts.

You can make small presents to persons you like. The Giveaway, like everything else, is voluntary. This ceremony is an ancient Indian tradition and pleases the person receiving the gift as well as the one giving it. It also has the background of giving and taking, in many cases e.g. the entire stock of household items was given except for a plate and a spoon to ask for healing, so that one makes way for the healing power.

Organisational remarks:
Accomodation is provided at Berghaus Zimba, there are several single rooms, double rooms and family rooms. Sheets and small towels will be provided, please bring your own large towels as well as towels for the sweatlodges!
Please include information about rooms prefered and number of persons when booking. You may also put up your own tent.

The camp is organized in a way that parents and children may participate together. Parents are responsible for their children and must keep an eye on them. There will be various possibilities for children, but please arrange supervision with the respective group leader.

Fees:
Camp fee:
Adults: EURO 233
Children above 12 years: EURO 144 (accompanied by parents)
Children aged 6-12: EURO 89 (accompanied by parents)
Children aged 3-6: EURO 55 (accompanied by parents)
Families: families with 2 or more children will get a reduction of 13% off the fees
Students: 13% reduction off the fees applicable for adults

Food:
Food will be supplied by Berghaus Zimba, i.e. a breakfast buffet, a buffet during the day (including coffee, tea, and fruit syrup), evening meal.

Fees for accomodation and food when booking rooms:
Adults: EURO 245 (EURO 35 per day and person)
Children 6-12: EURO 175 (EURO 25 per day and child)
Children up to the age of 6: EURO 126 (EURO 18 per day and child)

Fees when bringing your own tent:
Adults: EURO 175 (EURO 25 per day and person)
Children 6-12: EURO 119 (EURO 17 per day and child)
Children up to the age of 6: EURO 84 (EURO 12 per day and child)"

Offline earthw7

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2007, 07:13:33 pm »
Thanks I will give my cousin the pictures. Her husband is Donald Medicine Horse from Crow Agency.
In Spirit

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2007, 12:18:06 am »
One of the site owners of trafo.at today posted an interesting reply in a German language forum, addresses to me and another member of said forum, which I'd like to put up here in translation.

I would especially like to point out that this translation is done to the best of my abilities, I did not twist any sentence, and I stuck to the way of Sabrina's punctuation, or rather non-punctuation. The only change I effected is an abbreviation of the other addressee's first name.
I assume, however, that Ms Sabrina in fact did not realize that the incorrect translation was done by google, not by me, and thus barks up the wrong tree.

.............................
http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/forum.php?action=ubb_show&entryid=1094056167&mainid=1094056167&USER=user_288051&threadid=2&page=11      

User: nanabuc
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re: Sun Dance Chief - what's all this about
dd: Nov 18, 2007, 12:21

Hello P... and Ingeborg,

I would like to politely point out that you are hurting my copyright when you copy texts from my homepage, translate them (in part even twisting the meaning) and then publish them in another forum the same is true for texts which I wrote here.

Just for your info - it is not me who needs coaching re history lessons when I say that the oppression of nature religions here in Europe is going on far longer than in the USA - you should get informed about this. As a pagan, I can nowhere celebrate my feasts and rituals in public - I would immediately
get into problems in Austria - in Norway, Sami were persecuted even in the 1950ies and even killed when they were nomads [translator's note: this word is badly misspelled in the original posting, so I can only assume this is the term she meant], the same is true for the Tuvanian and Siberian peoples...

So it isn't just the natives in America who are badly off... history is more than what you learn at school...

But this is not the issue, should you continue to copy texts from my site and publish them somewhere else I will consider taking legal steps in order to prevent you from doing so.

Same as you are very keen on creating difficulties for Ben, I have now come to see that you are just narrowminded and that it makes no sense to explain anything to you - you don't want to understand what we do and why we do it.

But I will no longer have the work we do deformed by you therefore abstain from spreading further hate postings all over the world - your hate will just fall back on yourself and nothing will ever change...

regards
Sabrina
.................................
And my reply:

Hello Sabrina,
 
Quote
I would like to politely point out that you are hurting my copyright when you copy texts from my homepage, translate them (in part even twisting the meaning) and then publish them in another forum the same is true for texts which I wrote here.
When you publish texts on a site which can be accessed publicly and/or in an internet  forum with public access, these may be quoted and also translated under 'fair use' . Neither P... nor I have 'copied' your site or parts of it.
You also cannot be serious about accusing us of having twisted the meaning of texts, since both of us are fluent in spoken and written English. Of course, mistakes may happen, however, I did not see any in my or P...'s translations. To have translated incorrectly on purpose is something you don't mean to
accuse us of, since this is an allegation which needs proof instead of just making claims.
It is e.g. a violation of copyright to publish texts written by another person under one's own name. Both P.. and I have pointed out the texts were written by you and are to be found on your website.


Quote
As a pagan, I can nowhere celebrate my feasts and rituals in public - I would immediately get into problems in Austria - in Norway, Sami were persecuted even in the 1950ies and even killed when they were nomads, the same is true for the Tuvanian and Siberian peoples...
I think the first part of your comment is interesting, since I know that Austrian law makes it illegal to follow Nazi practice, respective gestures, salutes, symbols may not be shown publically, NSdAP [historic Nazi party] may not be founded again. Apart from that, there is religious freedom in Austria.

Being a white priviledged person carrying an Austrian passport, you will not seriously compare yourself to a Sami or another member of an indigenous population, since this would be, e.g., racist.

Quote
But this is not the issue, should you continue to copy texts from my site and publish them somewhere else I will consider taking legal steps in order to prevent you from doing so.

1. We do not copy texts from your site and did not do so before.
2. I will calmly wait for the result of your musings.

Quote
Same as you are very keen on creating difficulties for Ben, I have now come to see that you are just narrowminded and that it makes no sense to explain anything to you - you don't want to understand what we do and why we do it.

But I will no longer have the work we do deformed by you therefore abstain from spreading further hate postings all over the world - your hate will just fall back on yourself and nothing will ever change...
We are not creating difficulties - just insofar as he gets into difficulties because of information e.g. regarding his behaviour. The responsibility in this case lies with the person themselves, not with those passing the information. Publishing information also is not hate posting; you should think about the difference one of these days.

Apart from that, your comments follow a typical pattern which I know from NAFPS and which hardly ever sees a change: critics pointing out facts will be branded as 'narrow-minded' who 'do not want to understand' and allegedly spread hatred.
If 'your work' happens to be of such integrity and is carried by best intentions, I don't understand your being opposed against reports about this work so vehemently. Should 'your work'  not be in accordance with Austrian legal requirements, this also is your responsibility, not that of persons giving information.

............................

As has been mentioned in another forum, Ms Sabrina quite incidentially chose Sunday night to effect some changes to her website. So the offer of Cloud doing naming ceremonies during the camp apparently disappeared from the text, and there is an addition reading that Cloud does everything after having obtained approval from his nation and in accordance with 'those who need to know'. The latter might be seen as quite a convenient elastic clause (as I think you will read this, Sabrina, the German word for that is "Gummiparagraph").

Offline earthw7

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2007, 03:20:42 pm »
All I can say is living on the reservation you know the people.
I know that Rick Two Dog has never permitted white at his
Sun dance let along give permission to anyone to teach them.
Plus since i am relative to part of this family and they are shocked
at what has been posted. i wonder who he is getting permission
from?
In Spirit

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2007, 06:59:39 pm »
I suppose she should be getting mad at me, since I put up the bad google translation. My German is limited to words that are identical to English, like kindergarten, or terms widely used in history books like lebensraum.

If she's reading this, hopefully she'll read the thread more carefully. After all, not only does the tribe NOT approve of Cloud selling ceremonies and being an exploiter, none of them knew about it until recently and all are upset about it.

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2007, 11:39:41 pm »
I suppose she should be getting mad at me, since I put up the bad google translation.
Oh, I suppose she carefully avoided to blame you - you know, you're one of these soooper-spirchul ndns (ironic mode off).

Quote
If she's reading this, hopefully she'll read the thread more carefully. After all, not only does the tribe NOT approve of Cloud selling ceremonies and being an exploiter, none of them knew about it until recently and all are upset about it.
It is not to be expected that she, or any of the other nuagers in that German forum having come to the defence of Mr Cloud, will read this thread too carefully, or understand, as a matter of fact, and not for linguistic (dis)abilities. Me and the person who posted at indianz.com are getting abused, called names, our intelligence is being highly questioned, and we're accused of suffering from an inappropriate urge for witchhunts, and of course we should have contacted Ms Sabrina and/or Cloud himself to see what wonderful persons they are, honest, wellmeaning, & all the rest of it. One of the posters there has - quite aptly! - chosen a nick which in English translation will mean 'whoopsie'. Quite right - just hot air coming from that one.

Offline libellule

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2008, 11:14:36 pm »
Ingeborg, you make it sound like Ben Cloud was asking for money for conducting sweat lodges and talking about his cltural roots and sharing his knowledge with ppl ... I am pretty sure that this is not true ...

oh and Ingeborg, whilst reading the german forum, luckily my german is good enough to understand that you and some other people had your share of insulting other people in a very rude way urself ...

Offline libellule

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Re: Benjamin Joseph Cloud & Spirit Camp
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2008, 01:23:52 pm »
hey everybody ...

I just realized that it is not very polite to be new in a forum and not introduce urself ;)

I just stepped across this discussion incidentally as I was doing some online research on New Age and what ppl attract in it. I am not a New Age fan or a hobbyist as - for my part - I think one should look in the own cultural environment for answers but nevertheless I respect people that have a different point of view as long as every belief/religion/culture is treated with respect to its people and its principles.

From this site i was directed to the german forum Ingeborg was speaking of and was quite shocked how much hatred some people were spreading there "in the name of the right thing". That was why I jumped in the discussion without introducing myself :)