Author Topic: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott  (Read 99338 times)

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2013, 09:18:28 am »
I am writing in response to the rhetoric surrounding Chief Phillip Scott.  I have been in close association with the Chief for almost 7 years now.  I have lodged with him many,many times.  Ihave been in every lodge that he's poured for supporters at the Lone Star Sundance since 2007. The reports of misconduct, withholding water in lodges and disrespectful attitudes and acts toward women are completely untrue.  He has deep respect for the feminine - supporting and encouraging us to cultivate and maintain our wisdom and strength and to honor our ceremonies. He is relentless in his protection not only of women but of Mother Earth as well.

There is a claim he did not bring water into one of the supporter lodges at the Lampasas, Texas Sundance. I was in the lodge that year. I can say with certainty that Water was brought in and poured on the stones. He also passed it around for the participants to drink.I cannot remember a time when he hasn't brought water in to the lodge.  To forbid water would be so abhorrent, I would remember. What he actually said was the heat was a way for the supporters to appreciate and understand in some small measure the sacrifice of the Dancers. (He makes a point not to use the term suffering).

Clearly, one of your commentators has never participated in a Lodge. Otherwise s/he would know that dehydration is a consequence of purification in this manner (hence the reason for the common term "sweat").  What distinguishes Chief Phillip from other ceremonial leaders and water pourers is not only does he advise participants to hydrate well prior to entering the Inipi, but coconut water, other electrolyte beverages and water are are available for people to rehydrate afterward.

There is much talk about him but no one is talking WITH him. I would encourage you to speak with the Chief directly.  One of the comments mentions his mentors.  Aware of the traditional Medicine people with whom he's apprenticed, the commentator is inaccurate regarding the Chief's teachers. More unfounded hearsay and gossip on this website. And if there is any question regarding his authenticity of being a Chief, I can tell you this: At the 2007 Sundance, our camp prepared and served lunch to Chief Leonard CrowDog Sr., his wife and his family on one of the days of the dance.  It was raining and had cooled down quite a bit. Many attendees told us how relieved they were to see that we had prepared a hearty, hot meal for them. At the end of the feast, Chief Leonard Crow Dog Sr.  stood up and declared in front of everyone, "Hey nephew! You are a good Chief!"

Take your questions and concerns to Chief Phillip directly.  Better still have the courage to talk with him face to face. It is the respectful thing to do and demonstrates integrity.

Sal, hopefully you have enough integrity yourself to stay and talk, and more importantly, listen what actual Natives say rather than an imposter like Scott and imposters like those who run that Texas travesty claiming to be a "sundance." Hopefully you will not do hit and run posting as both Scott and his very poor lawyer defender did.

You apparently  have not read this thread at all. We talked directly to Scott. We told him directly he is a fraud, an imposter posing as a chief, an exploiter who sells ceremony and who falsely claims to be a sundance leader.

He has no mentors except two fellow imposters, two whites who have made a career out of being imposters. That plus a Lakota who did good 30-40 years ago, but has lost much respect for appointing twinkies like Scott as supposed chiefs.

Both Scott and his supporters, including yourself, keep dodging the central questions:
Why does he lie about what he is?
He knows selling ceremony is wrong. Why does he keep doing it?
The obvious answers are:
His own ego being fed by nonNative supporters who don't know any better
...and to keep from having to actually work for a living.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2013, 09:22:26 am »
Accusations made against Chief Phillip Scott are false.  For example, one contributor to this site stated in November of 2012: “Many of his former students were traumatized by the ordeals they endured, as he is a known manipulator of vulnerable women.  He accepts men into his circle as well, but definitely preys upon the women.”  I have known the Chief for seven years.  He is a leader with integrity and honor.  In this time, I have been acquainted with the majority of women students, as well as many other women (and men) who participate in the ceremonies he conducts.  Contrary to your contributor’s assertions, I would not describe any of these women as particularly “vulnerable” or otherwise incapable of exercising appropriate discrimination in selecting a Spiritual guide.  As an attorney for more than 30 years, I am neither vulnerable nor easily preyed upon.  Actually, the accusations made by your contributor are insulting to women.  To put it bluntly, women are and feel safe with the Chief because he has deep respect and high regard for us.  This is the truth.

Counselor, I hope you do better than this in court. A first year pre law student could do better. My freshman history students would know better than trying such poor excuses for arguments than you just used.

An argument is not just contradiction. Your post was completely evidence-free.

The only thing you did was ad hominem attacks on those abused by Scott. That makes you the moral verbal equivalent of lawyers who accuse rape victims of being sluts and wanting to be raped because they wore a short skirt or makeup.

used2bnaf

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2013, 05:56:24 pm »
I feel it is appropriate to respond to these comments.  As I am the "accuser" of Chief Philip Scott withholding water in the lodge.  I arrived at the lodge before everyone got in and stayed for the duration of the lodge.  I was also the last person to leave the area other than the fire keepers.  There was no water poured.  Period.  I spoke about it at length with camp I belonged to.  Crow Camp.

As far as what I would know about sweat lodges, allow me submit my non-Indian resume of experience from walking with Nuagers, and pretendians.

I began going to sweat lodges in 2002. From 2002-2011 I attended (that means I got in the lodge) 2 sweat lodges a month (minimum) during that entire time. 
I was a firekeeper for four years during this time period.
I completed 6 vision quests ceremonies during this time period.
I attended LSSD in 2002,05,06,07,08,09,10.
I do not say these things to brag.  I do not take pride in it.  They are my experiences as a white person, taking what was not mine to take.  Doing what was not mine to do.  Those years now are the reference I have and use to speak out against non natives stealing ceremony.  Whether it is sold, or simply used to inflate egos.  It is stealing and it is wrong.

My regret is that it took all those years to see the harm I was causing the Native Communities, I believed I was supporting.



Roy
aka used2b

As a post note, I never said what year Philip did not pour water in the lodge it was not in 2007 as the above individual presumes.  It was actually in 2005. 

It is interesting when even your nuage pretendians don't acknowledge a bonnet, then also remove your lodge from the dancers area to purify.  Why did they do that Philip?  I was there when your lodge was removed. Even within the LSSD community, conversations come about that you can be a predator, charge stiff fees for ceremonies, etc.  Don't mind me.  Ask those in the LSSD why they say these things about you.  As a metaphor it is similar to the KKK making a blockade against Westboro Baptist Church.  Nobody in this community wishes you harm or to damage you.  We are all saying the same thing.  Stop selling ceremony.  It isn't yours.  Payback what you have taken.  Apologize for lying.

I have spent the last year doing just these things.  It is hard, and scary, and sad.  It is also freedom from racism, bigotry, and lies.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 06:28:55 pm by used2bnaf »

Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2013, 03:11:05 am »
I notice the people who come defending Scott, simply skip over the fact, the truth, that sacred ceremony is only to be run by a member of that culture.

For sake of argument, let's say someone is doing these ceremonies w/o charge and actually are being a good person in every way, it would matter not. It is still stealing something that doesn't belong to them, and still running a ceremony that they've stolen from a culture, a people, they are not part of, and do not have the life long understanding of, and have no permission to do this. So it is wrong. Bottom line, it's theft of a people's sacred ceremony and anyone with any respect or integrity would never do this.

The defenders of Scott seem to miss this point, going on about what a great guy he is.. and none of it matters. He is running ceremony he has no business running.. that is not his, and that the people who these ceremonies belong to are saying he is not authorized, has not permission to take their sacred ways and use them. He is a thief. Why do the defenders *miss* this? It's all that matters.. and yet they skip over it as though it doesn't matter at all..

And I seriously highly doubt *anyone* becomes a "chief" because someone said.. "hey, you're a good chief".. LOL that's got to be one of the stupidest things yet..  ::)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 03:14:24 am by critter - a white non-ndn person »
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline robert8

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2013, 06:35:48 am »
Just my old observation. There's been a lot of stealing of native people's identity,ceremonies,etc. for a long time,that's for sure.There is more than that but I want to be brief please. I don't see or hear of anybody posing as a Rabbi,or declaring they are a Rabbi because of a grain of Jewish blood.Probably because it dosen't sell. In a land of no culture,it is easy to understand but not for those doing it. They just don't get it or don't want to. Ignorance or arrogance,& I think some of both.It makes me disgusted to be a human being to see or hear of others doing shameful things. The new ager motto of "just be yourself" is a lie,because it usually is at the expense of others. So,I say to Scott,just be yourself,be an EMT or whatever because those other clothes you wear don't fit. And why don't you acknowledge the other bloods in your ancestry & do their ceremonies,etc.? It dosen't sell,not good for marketing? I thought so. Look at who you really are without the chief status,without the sweat lodge,etc. & ask why you need to be doing these things.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2013, 12:56:56 pm »
I received an account by a former follower of Scott's. They wish to remain anonymous and describe Ancestral Voices as a cult or cult-like. This person describes frequent verbal abuse by Scott of his followers, and occasional physical abuse, one follower being injured by Scott who then laughed about it.

They supplied the contract Scott's followers have to sign. It supports the description of Ancestral Voices as a cult and also shows Scott as influenced by Nuage fraud Joseph Rael and Euro paganism. Scott's group celebrates Euro pagan holidays like Samhain.

Scott's partner is Nicole Dos Santos, who says she is "part Cherokee and Lakota." Santos does much of the recruiting. She goes by the name Pte Win...Buffalo Calf Woman. Yet another Nuager claiming that...

Contract excerpts below. Notice British English spellings throughout, and notice all the ways followers are controlled, with loyalty pledged to Scott above all else.

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Guideline for Indigenous Lifeway, The Way of the Mystic
1. Honour committments to program...
Program takes priority when conflicts with other spiritual programs or teachers arise.

2. Recognize Phillip as guide and teacher...

3. Honour lineage...

5. Interpersonal dynamics...
Allow self to be seen and be vulnerable
Willingness to be uncomfortable

6. Keep temporal and financial commitments...
...attend all events.
...make all payments on time.

8. If extreme circumstances warrant departure...closing session is mandatory...

11. Teacher has prerogative to curtail involvement.

Pg 2 of contract

Furthermore it is student's responsibility to contact teacher to arrange monthly sessions. Failure to contact results in loss of that month's session.

All tasks are to be completed...

Sacred Hoops is compulsory for local students.

Students are required to support one hanblechya before going on their own vision quest.

...first phase students are not permitted to attend Sundance...

If student gives his word, the word must be honoured with no exceptions or excuses.

...If tobacco is gifted, student must fulfill the covenant, regardless of circumstances.

3-4 day fasts are required at solstices and equinoxes...Ceremonies need to be performed on full moons, four days after full moons, solstices, equinoxes, Imbolc, Beltaine, Lamas, Samhain.

...Before visiting other medicine people/spiritual teachers...students will first check with teacher...

If student intends to represent Ancestral Voice...student will obtain clearance beforehand.

When violations...occur, the sequence...is, verbal warning, written warning, written request for termination, closing session.

...No refunds are granted and tuition is paid in entirety, even if student departs prematurely....

As Joseph Rael, Beautiful Painted Arrow would counsel, don't take life personally and see universal principles.

Pg 3 of contract
I have read all guidelines...and will comply with all protocols...

I select the following payment structure...I understand all tuition is nonrefundable...

Signatures below confirm binding nature of this agreement.
[Student signature]
[Phillip Scott signature]

Offline Ingeborg

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2013, 04:14:11 pm »
Notice British English spellings throughout

Not quite - they are spelling 'program', while the British English spelling should read 'programme':

Quote
Guideline for Indigenous Lifeway, The Way of the Mystic
1. Honour committments to program...
Program takes priority when conflicts with other spiritual programs or teachers arise.

'Commitment' is also misspelled in the text. So the contract may have been written by more than one person, or by one person with spelling problems.


Epiphany

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2013, 05:56:51 pm »
In the book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism eight psychological  themes are detailed of thought reform totalitarian  groups:

Milieu Control
Mystical Manipulation
The Demand for Purity
The Cult of Confession
The "Sacred Science"
Loading the Language
Doctrine Over Person
The Dispensing of Existence

http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html

Scott's group hits all the destructive cultic group notes. I hope everyone gets away from him and his crew fast.


Epiphany

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2013, 07:02:37 pm »
Quote
The traditional path

Phillip Scott, founder-director of Ancestral Voice - Center for Indigenous Lifeways in Novato, who leads traditional vision quests twice a year in the foothills of Mount Lassen, adheres to strict Lakota protocols of no food, water or sleep for four days and nights. No sunscreen, journal or shelter, not even a sleeping bag. "In the old days you took a buffalo robe," said Scott, who is of Western Band Cherokee ancestry and a ceremonial leader in the Lakota tradition. "Now you can take one blanket."

http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Vision-quests-remove-spirit-work-distractions-3245205.php#page-2
-------
And from Phillip Scott himself:

Quote
Undoubtedly there are gurus, healers and spiritual teachers of questionable authority, accountability, scruples and experience in the world. The best antidote to safeguard oneself and others from misfortune is to be aware and pay attention - open one's eyes and ears – and, at an appropriate moment, to simply ask questions regarding their qualifications. Based upon their reply, your impression and feelings - make an informed determination.

This is your right and ultimately, it may save your life.

Insta-Shamans - Just Add Ego:
Shortcuts, Self Importance & Colonialism http://www.openexchange.org/features/JFM11/scott_phillip.html

« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 07:06:00 pm by Epiphany »

Epiphany

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2013, 08:36:14 pm »
Gleanings from his site http://www.ancestralvoice.org

Quote
I express my heartfelt gratitude to Unci (Grandmother) Chipps, Grandfather Wallace Black Elk, Charles Chipps, Lessert Moore and Lynn Valentine for the wisdom, healing and medicine they have bestowed upon our community through the purification lodge ceremonies they have performed.

Quote
Upon returning from the Sundance this year with a novel role and considerably more responsibilities for myself, we - my students, community and I - were honoured by the presence of one of my first Medicine Teachers- Tsloot koi yeh (Beautiful Painted Arrow), Joseph Rael- whom I had not seen in seven years.

Quote
Finally, the not for profit organization, Global Alliance for Balance and Healing, is now officially serving as my fiscal sponsor. Donations of any denomination are now tax deductible. If you care to contribute, please draft checks and address them to myself.

http://www.globalalliance.ws/pages/home

Offline moreinfo

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2013, 10:23:59 pm »
it appears that these traits listed in the links below are common to these frauds and exploiters .
some of if not all of these cult like characteristics and definitions listed are common and prevalent in their teachings". they use these methods/techniques to indoctrinate you to follow the leaders agenda, and in the worse cases to become very devout true believers that literally takes over your life.and its all for money,power and control.
so buyer beware -research and ask as many questions as you can before you join any group,

these links maybe helpful to recognize and get a better understanding about cults,they are now called HIGH DEMAND GROUPS,which is a more politically correct name that makes it easier for people to talk about these groups.

http://www.spiritwatch.org/idrelab.htm

http://www.dreichel.com/Checklist_of_Cult_Characte.htm

http://www.spiritwatch.org/cultworld.htm

http://www.spiritwatch.org/cultdef.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_abuse

this site is also helpful to understand these groups

http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/Warning_signs_of_dysfunctional_cults.html


Offline educatedindian

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2013, 03:55:25 pm »
Scott emailed me. His bottom line and control of his cult is being threatened, so he's trying empty legal threats. Below is his email followed by my response.

-----------
From: Phillip Scott
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 9:42 PM
Subject: Copyright Violation
 
Good Evening Mr. Carroll,

It has been brought to my attention a copy of the contract for my Center's program has been posted on your site.

Be advised the document is copyright protected and must be removed immediately.

Though the 1st amendment affords the freedom to express yourself (even if the content is apocryphal)
it does not grant you the right to infringe upon copyright laws.

Thank you,
Phillip Scott

Notice of Confidentiality: This transmission contains confidential information legally privileged or otherwise protected. This information is intended only for the individual(s) named above. You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited.

-----------
Re: Alleged Copyright Violation

Nice of you to provide yet more proof that you are all about cash and the spiritual pose is a front.

It took you almost six years to respond to being correctly listed as an imposter posing as a Lakota spiritual leader. But threats to your bottom line and to the exposure of cult-like control of your followers get a response in only a few days.

There is no copyright listed on the document itself. Provide proof of copyright, more than just you claiming so.

Be advised also that even if there is a copyright, there have never been any laws preventing excerpts from being posted of copyrighted work, as was done with your contract. 

Be advised also that copyright law does not prevent summaries or paraphrasing of copyrighted documents.

Attempts to misuse copyright law to silence criticism by us has been tried before by other Nuage frauds, and it was equally unsuccessful. Not once in a decade and a half have such efforts ever worked.

Your knowledge of the law is as poor as your knowledge of Native spiritual traditions and ceremonies. It's third hand at best, very limited, and does not exist so you or your little cult can hide your lack of ethics.

This and all other communications will be posted online for all to see.

Offline Superdog

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2013, 07:29:37 pm »
Looks like he authenticated the document for everyone.

On another note here's a listing to buy "tickets" for a sweatlodge on a page called Lovespring.org 

Here's the listing on Lovespring for a sweat back in November.

http://www.lovespring.org/san-francisco-events/upcoming-meetings/155-11-4purification-lodge

If you go to "Purchase tickets"  you get sent here:
http://purificationlodge.eventbrite.com/

" LoveSpring
Sunday, November 4, 2012 from 11:00 AM to 4:00 PM (PST)
Petaluma Ca,
   
Purification (Sweat) Lodge with Chief Blackhorse
Ticket Information
Ticket Type                                                                            Sales End  Price    Fee            Quantity
Sweatlodge (includes wood, ceremony), Bring potluck item    Ended    $35.00    $2.92    N/A
Respectful Donation                                                            Ended                                    N/A"



That's straight up selling tickets for a sweatlodge....no other way to put it.

Superdog
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 08:32:33 pm by Superdog »

Offline educatedindian

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2013, 01:54:57 pm »
Scott and has people have not shown themselves again, though clearly they do keep an eye on us. His control over them seems absolute, ordered to come here and then not a single one of them tried to talk beyond giving a hit and run endorsement of Scott.

Scott claims to have Cherokee ancestry, but if so it's pretty distant. In fact, looking up his full name, his ancestry is pretty elite.

His grandfather was Allan Scott, who wrote Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers films, was a Rhodes Scholar and graduated from the very upper crust schools of Amherst and Oxford.
http://www.gomolo.com/celeb/allan-scott-and-fred-astaire-movies-list/61393/131767
http://articles.latimes.com/1995-04-17/news/mn-55662_1_allan-scott

 

I received an account from a former follower of Scott's. They describe what it's like in essentially a cult.

Scott studied under Chogyam Trungpa, an incredibly controversial Buddhist teacher who had relations with many female students and was a heavy drinker and cocaine user. Scott also taught at Andrew Weil's school, an altmedicine type.

Scott also claims to have been taught by the late Archie Fire Lame Deer, a Lakota who sold ceremony in Europe, son of the famed John Fire Lame Deer.

It's interesting that Scott, in his emails to me, only claimed to have lineage from two white imposters, Mary Grimes and Michael Hull, as well as being made“chief” by Crow Dog, who other Lakotas in here have said has no power to make chiefs.

Scott also claims to his followers that a near death experience at six years old from spirits told him he would be a Lakota and Cherokee spiritual leader. Why then would he study Buddhism and teach altmedicine? If he did talk to spirits, they deceived him, or he didn't listen, because he also went to white imposters to learn.

Scott is verbally abusive to all new members to try and break them down. The new members put up with it because they have already paid "tuition" and are also bound to him by contract.

The cult tries to break ties between families, between parents and children and between husbands and wives. Scott claims to speak to spirits and that is used as proof of his authority. He also claims that people who hate him are using bad spirits to try and attack him.

Quite a few people come out of sweats dizzy, have to lie down. Scott takes flesh offerings with a scalpel at his version of Sun Dances.
 
There are also ceremonies in those other “centers of Lakota culture” Puerto Rico and Hawaii. His group also sells the Nuage soul retrieval ceremony for $150, in addition to selling sweatlodges.

Offline Otter3

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Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2013, 03:40:46 pm »
Scott takes flesh offerings from members and students who volunteer at meetings before he goes to Sun Dances.