Author Topic: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott  (Read 97960 times)

Offline debbieredbear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1485
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2013, 10:15:18 pm »
So, inspite of the fact that he lies abut being enrolled, a "Lakota chief" and sells ceremoney, we are supposed to just say "oh, ok, he seems to be sincere"? Sorry, but he is a fake, selling people something he not only doesn't have the rights to, but probably knows little about. AAnd understands less or he wouldn't be doing this,

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3426
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2013, 10:33:07 pm »
In addition to Deb's points above, some of our Indigenous members and non-Indigenous allies have dealt with him personally. They asked him questions that any legitimate person would have been able to answer, and he failed on all counts. It is obvious what he is. We see his sort all the time, and are not fooled by whatever glamour he has pulled over the eyes of his followers.

Offline educatedindian

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4638
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2013, 12:59:23 am »
Hello Adam,
We always welcome firsthand accounts to try and gather as much information as possible. But since we have multiple accounts contradicting yours, some of what you say is hard to believe.

There's also some questions I have about what you say. I added numbers to make it clearer what I'm asking about.


1. I first met Mr. Scott while volunteering at the Labyrinth Guild at Grace Cathedral of San Francisco, a sacred and forward-feeling Christian institution. He was invited to perform musical ceremony at a Labyrinth Event, a type of Medicine Wheel.

2. As soon as I set eyes on Phillip I was impressed. His body language continuously speaks of his authenticity and strength as a human being.

3. Phillip Scott is one of the strongest and most sincere men I have ever met. His word is impeccable and he is as fearless as one gets while doing so much work with the body. [Bolding mine, see why below.]

4...I have never seen him act in any other way but respectful towards the women of his community.

5. It is important to understand that Phillip Scott has Sundanced for over two decades. There are no "Twinkie Sundances." There are only Sundances that do not permit the ego to pass, and there is nothing else.

6. But one cannot take the word of a forum thread in the case of such sacred Medicine.

7. One must meet Phillip Scott for themselves, look at the scars over his body, stare at the lightning in his eyes, and observe his behavior and consequent Medicine.

8. Phillip Scott never charges for traditional ceremony.

1. I'm less than impressed by this place. http://www.gracecathedral.org/visit/labyrinth/
An Episcopal church running a very New Age-influenced "labyrinth" ceremony. Lauren Artess founded the practice. She's best known as faculty at "Wisdom University" an unaccredited degree mill peddling vague claims and knowledge.
And no, what you went through not even remotely like a medicine wheel. First off all, medicine wheels are largely plain old calendars without sacred purpose or medicine. For the tribes for whom they were medicine, they didn't build them so casually, and would not use them outside of their cultural context.

That may seem like a long sidenote and off topic. But it does show to all of us that you don't know much about actual Native traditions.

2. You seriously claim to judge him by body language? Honestly, that makes you sound closer to a groupie with a crush on the man.

3. How do you reconcile your belief that he is "sincere" with all the lies he's been caught in?

I see also you use the buzzwords so beloved by Castaneda followers. I take it you admire him also. Are you aware he was debunked over 30 years ago as an obvious fraud?

4. Again, how do you reconcile this other claim with the other accounts saying the opposite?

5. Nonsense. Of course there are twinkie sundances, and that's all Scott has ever attended or learned from.

A twinkie "sundance" claiming to be the real thing is any one that is mostly or entirely attended by non-Natives. Catering to them alters it, distorts it, and can turn it into a perversion or insult.

Sundances are certainly not a magic bullet. Most actual Natives can point to someone they know who Sundances (at genuine ones) and they still are jerks. Just like Baptism or confirmation or Bar Mitzvah don't guarantee someone is a good Christian or Jew.

Again, this shows you don't know much about Native traditions.

6. Actually one can, about as much as one can take your word, or any other follower of Scott's.

Actually we are far more reliable, because unlike you, we know Native cultures. There are many here who have grown up on the rezzes, were raised in the traditions. That's far more than you, any other follower of Scott's...

...or even Scott himself can claim. Remember, he's a man claiming distant Cheroke ancestry...

...who was taught by white imposters and exploiters like Mary Grimes and Michael Hull...

...their fake version of Lakota tradition.

So that's about three degrees removed from anything remotely genuine Lakota that Scott supposedly knows.

Scott has about as much actual expertise in Lakota tradition as I do in martial arts by watching Jackie Chan films. We've both observed fake versions of the real thing.

7. I've never met Bernie Madoff either. But I don't need to, not to know he's a con man.

8. Again, that contradicts several other accounts we have. How do you reconcile that?
And he doesn't do traditional ceremony anyway, just his three degrees removed exploitation of it.

I wish you well, and that you learn how to tell the true from the fake, not simply fall for it because it makes you feel good.
There are many threads in here you could benefit from reading. Perhaps you should start with the Castaneda ones.

Offline adam1981

  • Posts: 4
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2013, 03:01:04 am »
It appears you are discrediting anyone who does not have what you consider sufficiently indigenous phenotype. Elemental Earth medicine is not the monopoly of indigenous people, a very relative term when speaking of the world.

I wanted to offer my experience because I was dismayed by how much anger I found here, a tree universally known to bear only toxic fruit. It does not appear to be the heat of righteous passion, but rather the fire of inquisition. As the wheel turns, unfortunately.

Phillip Scott has not lied. He has expressed his lineage, it has simply not been accepted by certain cultural conservatives. He does not charge for ceremony and everyone is welcome, but he does teach separate paid workshops so that he may earn his living like a man. He acts with a very trained and disciplined virtue, no actual evidence has been presented against this.

I judge everyone by their body language, speech, actions, and the effect they have on their environment and those around them. By these criteria Phillip Scott has very potent Medicine.

I empathize with the aversion for "New Age pseudo-enlightenment." Although I have examined what would count as various New Age teachings, I have settled on only the traditional spiritual scriptures which trace their lineage for thousands of years. I have studied with traditional Hindu and Buddhist teachers and perceive that much of the indigenous elemental wisdom is also expressed in these ancient scriptures.

If one Googles images for "labyrinth" and "medicine wheel" the geometric reasoning components of one's brain will quickly indicate that it is looking at different representations of the same thing. However, you are absolutely correct, my knowledge of Native Medicine is limited, because these practices have very few revealed scriptures accessible to the world. We have seen the historical consequences of such ethnocentricity, it is not a cause for false pride.

Grace Cathedral of San Francisco is one of the most sacred and authentic Christian institutions in the Americas. Again one may determine this by historical context and direct experience. It is not a point worth further debating. I wish you all peace.

Offline Superdog

  • Posts: 443
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2013, 12:37:35 pm »
It appears you are discrediting anyone who does not have what you consider sufficiently indigenous phenotype. Elemental Earth medicine is not the monopoly of indigenous people, a very relative term when speaking of the world.

Lakota traditions are Lakota traditions.  They have the final say in what's right or wrong in their traditions.....not you.

Just because you add the label "Elemental Earth medicine" shows how you separate the two and highlights the reasons why the Lakota so closely guard their spirituality these days. 

Nobody has discredited you....you unfortunately discredited yourself and continued to do so with this post.  Get it straight.  Phillip's medicine wheels, sweatlodges and vision quests are things he learned about Lakota culture.  Not some generic "indigenous tradition".  If you want to learn about Lakota spirituality....do it the way they tell you.  It's not hidden from you, but it's also not as easy as attending a workshop or a "free ceremony" upsell scam.

You sit on a high horse of righteousness Adam, but that was one of the more racist/entitled posts i've seen on here in a while.  You have a lot to learn.

Superdog
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:01:21 pm by Superdog »

Offline Smart Mule

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1103
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2013, 02:47:42 pm »
Hi Adam

I've spoken with Phillip on the phone several times. He came across as very egocentric, an attitude which seems to have bled over to his followers and fans. You have no place making decisions about what is acceptable exploitation of a community and their ceremonies.

Sky

Offline adam1981

  • Posts: 4
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2013, 04:09:34 pm »
Let us please consider that when humans communicate it is all reflection.

I apologize and ask forgiveness if I stepped out of the way in expressing authority over Lakota and other Native American tribal customs.

At the same time I cannot deny that I feel all truth, scientific and spiritual, is public domain. We are all children of the Earth. This does not mean I condone exploitation. Yet everything that is off-center from the wheel must have its counterbalance, in my understanding this is a fundamental truth of elemental medicine, and physics.

But I know of no wisdom on this Earth that teaches angry speech and character assassination lead to wholesome results. Thank you for allowing me to share my perspective.

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3426
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2013, 06:13:33 pm »
Adam,

People who do harm need to be stopped. It is not hate you hear. What you hear is a community of people who love and respect the traditions and the true tradition-bearers, and who do not want to see their traditions degraded, sold, twisted and potentially destroyed. It is out of love for the People and the ways of our diverse but allied communities that we, out of love, try to stop those who would do harm.

The idea that all ways are universal and for the taking (or buying) is a concept invented by non-Natives, by people with white privilege who believe they have a right to anything they want. We are asking these exploiters to respect boundaries. To respect the values of the communities whose ceremonies they want to pilfer and use out of context. Without the community, without the values, without the respect, the ceremonies are meaningless.

Insulting the people who live their lives in the communities where these ways are maintained, where their relatives have literally died to defend these traditions, shows us that the person doesn't respect the ceremonies at all. It shows us they want to feel different, like taking a drug. They want the illusion of spiritual growth without the commitment to the community standards that keep the ways healthy. I look at the exploiters and all I see is greed and ego. They have learned to con people, like any con man. But that is what they are - not spiritual leaders, but con men.


Offline adam1981

  • Posts: 4
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2013, 07:12:42 pm »
Thank you Kathryn for the heartfelt response. I pray this fourth post may be my last here.

As I have come to know Phillip Scott, he teaches and lives almost all these same good things that have been said here in defense of Lakota and traditional ways. He is very protective in his words and actions of Native truths and traditions. The only violation I can see is that the Native persons represented by this forum do not agree he has the right to do so. But aside from that, he himself teaches that exactly this kind of effect can occur when one sings the sacred songs illicitly.

What attracted me to Phillip Scott in spite of his bodily European appearance was exactly the sense of community, values, respect, and profound meaning that is clearly present in his life and work as observed directly. I have found that many potent Teachers of all ancient traditions at times cease to coddle the ego, and different individuals will react to this in different ways.

One has to give their word they are free of any intoxicants 24-hours prior to attending a Purification Lodge with Phillip Scott pouring the water. Sometimes people violate this but it always becomes known within the Initi. The results are not sweet Medicine.

I have seen the con men with psuedo-glamor but little virtue or hard work, so I understand the concerns. I respectfully reiterate that based on prolonged observation this is very far from the truth with Phillip Scott. He is doing a great service to the traditional ways with his excellent and protective practice. His work is strengthening many fruitful trees.

Offline Superdog

  • Posts: 443
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2013, 07:47:29 pm »
Adam I truly meant what I said when I stated you have a lot to learn.  The passive aggressiveness of your apology underlines that, as well your (not the board's) focus on P. Scott's physical appearance.  There are Natives on this board....not all of us have brown skin, dark eyes and long hair.....a bit presumptious of you to think that we do....let's just leave it at that.

I don't deny you learning about Lakota spirituality.  Neither do Lakotas.  Like I said, it's not hidden from you and if you wish to learn, then you should consider learning the way they tell you.  When their spirituality is removed from its context (i.e. non-Native sundances, P. Scott's 'vision quests') what you end up with is interpretation.  If, somehow in your head, you've convinced yourself that Lakota people condone a Christian-like model of prosthelytization of the things they hold most sacred...then you're missing a lot.

You perceive P. Scott one way, however, I see other things.  I recent hour long interview posted on youtube by Phillip reveals a lot.  It's obvious he's learned some things, but its also obvious he covers up things as well.  There's a bit of talking out of both sides of his mouth.  One the one hand, early on he warns about lumping Native peoples into one homogenous melting pot of "indigenous" and that's its offensive....then he spends the rest of the interview doing exactly that.

My impression of him is he carries himself like a Native Studies Anthropologist Professor from the 70's/80's who's been adopted....nothing more. 

I'd also like to point you to a post of another board member concerning adoption and Lakotas:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1294.0
Posted by earthw7:
"I don't know if this is the area to be put this post but here goes.

The adoption ceremonies of my people the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota are
called Hunka ceremonies.
I would like to explain a little about them.
What they are and what they are NOT.

The adoption ceremonies are a ceremonies to adopt an individual into a family.
When you lose a family member you have the right to adopt a member.
When you are close to a person for a long time you have the right to adopt
them as a member of your family.
This relationship is sarced.

The right as a Hunka relatived are to care for your new family as they care for you.


Now for what they are NOT.
There has never been a person who has been adopted into the Lakota or Dakota or Nakota
Nation. This has not happen in the past nor today.

The Lakota/Dakota/Nakota Nations are in North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Nebraska,
Minnesota, three Canadain States. in order for a person to be adopted into the nation
it would have to be OKed by all of the nations and bands. I can tell it has never happened.

What right the adoptees Do Not have:
They have No Rights to ceremonies,
They have NO Rights to our stories
They have NO Rights to medicine,
They have No Rights to inherit medicine men names,
They have No Right to names,
They have NO Right to speak for our nations
They have No Right to speak for our governments,
They Have No Rights to speak for the adopted families,

If a person claims to be adopted by the Lakota or Dakota or Nakota
If a person claim to be taught medicine by a Lakota or Dakota or Nakota

Beware"


You have a right to your opinion.  But please....don't walk into a room full of Natives and pretend you know more about them then they do.  All your talk of reflection should have you reevaluating your overgeneralizations of the board members, others that post here, or the information on these pages.  Your last post is full of this type of ignorance....

I mean..." he himself teaches that exactly this kind of effect can occur when one sings the sacred songs illicitly."  What the heck are you thinking with a line like that....

Superdog

Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2013, 04:22:50 am »
Curious on how you, Adam, can say this: "He is very protective in his words and actions of Native truths and traditions. "  and this:  What attracted me to Phillip Scott in spite of his bodily European appearance was exactly the sense of community, values, respect, and profound meaning that is clearly present in his life and work as observed directly."

And yet, he is of distant Cherokee ancestry.. but performing Lakota ceremony? You call this respect? Value? What does he respect? value? Certainly not the Lakota.. and he certainly isn't being protective by taking their ceremonies .. that he has no rights to.. so.. stealing their ceremonies and making them into something else so he can have followers and be looked upon by admiring eyes from people who dote upon him with their thoughts that he is "Someone".

Really. Sometimes, the truth is so much in our faces that we just don't see it. I hope you take a few steps back and gain a wider and clearer view of what this guy is doing to the Lakota people. It isn't respectful, nor of value, and certainly not protective.
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet http://www.4shared.com/file/114179563/3697e436/BuddhaFeet.html

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1423
    • Standing Rock Tourism
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2013, 03:38:53 pm »
Why? I wonder about all the people who think they know more about my people then
we do they come four two to four years and think they all about us, then they take our
ceremonies which taken a life time to learn, then they adpated them to make life easier
for them, they add things that are not a part of our culture, then we have people claiming to
come from other nation and do our ceremonies like they have no belief in their own people.
The cherokee dont have pipes, dont do Sweat lodges and dont do sundances why would
they not honor their own culture.
They say this man is doing good things they say i say for who?  I say he stole a culture, uses
a way that takes a life time to learn;
he is not helping the Lakota people nor the Cherokee people he is stealing a way to teach
non-natives. Then he is using the way to making a living! That is a Christian concept were
you pay the preist. Not a native concept. Even our spiritual leader get jobs for their living.
In order to run a ceremonie you must speak Lakota-Dakota;sing Lakota-Dakota that is the way.
In Spirit

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3426
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2013, 05:48:02 pm »
Spiritual seekers who feel empty can project all kinds of profound illusions onto the wrong people. And when the con man encourages these projections....

Check out this social experiment. The followers will sound very familiar:   http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3924

Offline debbieredbear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1485
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2013, 06:33:06 pm »
and adam, maybe you need to ask yourself why inspite of so much evidence that this man is an exploiter, you NEED to defend him. And why you NEED a guru so badly you will defend people who do bad things. That need is within you and something you should look at. If you don't, you will continue to fall for these kinds of people. Exploiters. Think about it.

Offline educatedindian

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4638
Re: Ancestral Voices/ Phillip Scott
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2013, 03:50:19 pm »
1. It appears you are discrediting anyone who does not have what you consider sufficiently indigenous phenotype. Elemental Earth medicine is not the monopoly of indigenous people, a very relative term when speaking of the world.

2. I wanted to offer my experience because I was dismayed by how much anger I found here, a tree universally known to bear only toxic fruit. It does not appear to be the heat of righteous passion, but rather the fire of inquisition.

3. Phillip Scott has not lied. He has expressed his lineage, it has simply not been accepted by certain cultural conservatives.

4. He does not charge for ceremony and everyone is welcome, but he does teach separate paid workshops so that he may earn his living like a man.

Most of what you say has been addressed by others, but let me add a few final points, for you and any others to see.

1. It's interesting that you inject race into the discussion, reflecting a white western worldview. No one here brought it up, except you. And you sound very much like a Fox News commentator by doing so, claiming whites are being persecuted by those evil dark skinned people.

Obviously we were talking about whether he was part of a Native community. Clearly Scott is not. He peddles to nonNative Nuagers  in Frisco.

2. This is really bizarre. I don't see any anger here at all.  You only imagine that.

Is a pickpocket victim being angry when they tell a cop, "my wallet was stolen." No, that's just a statement of fact.

And you insult the memory of genuine victims of genuine persecution when you conflate people pointing out a con man is in fact a con man with that.

3. Actually Scott's fabricated "lineage" has not been accepted by anyone outside of outsiders, Nuagers and no one else.

It's truly a bizarre bit of denial that you claim literally every other person here is lying, in addition to the accounts by victims of Scott.

4. Ah, I see. He calls a ceremony a workshop and suddenly pay to pray is OK.

And seemingly only pay to pray exploiters are "real men" in your view. Actually working for a living, as real elders do instead of making a buck off of spiritual tradition, somehow makes them lesser men.

So it's not enough to defend Scott. You have to insult traditional elders too.

It may be virtually impossible to get through to you, and you shutting down after your last post seems to show that. But hopefully others can learn from this.