Author Topic: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"  (Read 149677 times)

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 684
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2009, 10:23:30 pm »
I've been reading stuff over on Indianz.com. As much as the fighting that happens over there often seems pointless, it's interesting because obviously whats being disputed is stuff people feel strongly about, and people have their reasons. So I like to read over there and try and get a better understanding of the different points of veiw .

Betsy posts over there quite a lot under the nic "Guardian". She seems to be quite a character. She is a good researcher ,  smart ,  she's even witty and funny in a shockingly nasty way. She does dig up some good information , and some of it I've found helpful, and some of her complaints have some basis in reality.

But ,on the other hand, she seems to be going out of her way to discredit the information provided here. though she makes some valid points, mixed in with this is a lot of misinformation. I don't like to see the work we do here discredited for bogus reasons , i don't like to see people harrassed for what looks like no good reason, and it's really hard to watch divisions inflammed between people who are already hurting , who need to be able to work together towards the same goals , without saying anything.

I like to try to identify and support peoples legitimate needs, and Betsy claims to have some. She says she is there because she was hurt by a faux Indian and she thinks that is a place she can learn how to distinguish what she calls faux Indians from real Indians. .

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34940&whichpage=6

Guardian
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Posted - 11/02/2008
As I said when I first posted here, I came for the Faux Indian buffet, and I have NOT been disappointed ! You are here, in ABUNDANCE, and that pleases me greatly. I will eat my fill, and then come back for seconds "Vendetta" is not that far off the mark. What Faux Indians did to me when I had shingles in my cranial nerve and was pumped full of prescription narcotics that I have ZERO tolerance for, is as fresh in my mind today as it was when the event occurred. Unlike you and the majority of people, I was not BLESSED with forgetfulness, ESPECIALLY when it comes to traumatic experiances. What was done to me will NEVER happen to another if I have anything to say about it ....and I do.

Guardian
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Posted - 11/02/2008
..........Faux Indians specialize in cruelty as a means of control. Faux Indians served me the single most painful experience of my adult life. What happened to me will NEVER happen to another if I have anything to say about it ....and I do.

I wonder who these people were? I haven't seen where she has specifically named them or said what they did to her. Is this someone who is listed here? Is this someone NAFPS could list a warning about?

Having been hurt , it seem Betsy wants to learn how to identify what hurt her so she can avoid this problem in the future and so she can pass this information on to the pagan community .

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35225&whichpage=1

Guardian
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Posted - 11/15/2008
Indianz.com is one of the only Indian controlled forums I have found where (some) real Indians are openly confronting the frauds. It is almost like putting an original work of art and a clever forgery side by side to learn to tell all the differences between the two. Separate the two look similar to an untrained eye, but when viewed together, the differences are glaring.

If you know of a place where I can get more information about Faux Indians than here, I would be VERY grateful to know where?

If Betsy is sincere in this , I am having a really hard time understanding where Betsy is coming from because while she says she is wanting to make sure no one else gets hurt by a fraud, and knows she doesn't know how to identify the problems to avoid,  she assumes she knows enough to know the information provided on NAFPS isn't worth listening to. She even brags about having NAFPS repeatedly shut down.

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35152&whichpage=4
Guardian
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So ask 'ol Al if my lawyers are so bad, where did his first two websites go? Wanna try three for three? I noticed you did not include a link to the old post ...

This is also mentioned in the link below when she is said to be involved in silencing a couple Native anti fraud groups in 2002 .

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Racism_Against_Indigenous_Peoples/message/1003

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35595&whichpage=8

Guardian
Posted - 12/31/2008 :  10:00:19 AM
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My only contact with Edwards was AFTER Carroll incorrectly identified her on his website. Yes, I did have his site yanked ...twice...because Carroll STOLE her photograph off her websit and then put someone else's name on it.I did the same thing last month when Diabolos stole my photo and put another woman's name on it. His site is gone too. Freedom of Speech is not Freedom to STEAL!

Yes, I did believe Edwards was enrolled in a Federally Recognized Tribe, whereas I already knew Schavia was not. Edwards posted her "Enrollment card" and a Tribal letter "proving" her enrollment on her website...and they are still there. I fell for it. Recently I sent a letter to the Crow Nation, but have recieved no reply as yet. I MUST have proof she is not another "Garrett" before I profile her on Faux Indians. I DO beleive what the Indians on this forum have told me, but "Someone told me so on the Internet Judge" just does not work when one of these mutts drags me to court.

For someone who had never met Brooke that sounds like a pretty frivolous reason to get an informative website shut down ...

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36599&whichpage=1

Guardian
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Posted - 03/26/2009 : 10:07:09 PM
I had no CLUE I was not helping nice Indian people until 2005 I fell for their Faux Indian CRAP hook line and sinker. I gave them money, built and hosted their websites, you name it.

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35225&whichpage=1

Kii-yaa-tuk
Posted - 11/15/2008
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But I am curious, and hoping you can help me understand your reasoning, as to why you brought that to Indianz.com which is not a haven for the type of behaviors you are seeking to address via your cyber skills.

Guardian
Posted - 11/16/2008 : 12:10:28 AM
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If all Indians were color coded like other minority races this would be soooooo much easier....but clearly they are not. Some very real Indians are as light skinned as I and in some Tribes (especially along the East Coast) skin tone and physical features are a genetic crapshoot after 300+ years of interbreeding. This really does not help when trying to sort out the frauds at all. Throw in a couple brown skinned fakes from the Middle East pretending to be Lakota and geeeeezzzzzz it is like looking for a needle in a pound of pins.

So while i feel some sympathy to her confusion and wanting to protect others from being misled , I am wondering why she is so against information provided on this message board and why she seems to want to be the only one to convey to others what she says tribes have to say on these issues.

I'm also concerned because while Betsy is focusing on learning to identify the problem , i think she may have prematurely leaped to the conclusion that the problem is something she calls " faux Indians" .I basically agree with how she has identified the problem , in the definition she posted on her  website.

What I like about this definition is that it focuses on confronting faux entitlements and not peoples racial identity .

ww w.out ofthedark .co m/Fa uxIndia ns /in dex.htm l

Quoting Betsy Ashby
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What is a "Faux Indian" you ask?
Anyone who is not a member of a Federally Recognized Indian Tribe who is running around claiming to represent, teach about, or collect money for "Native American Indians" in some shape, form or fashion....usually with a 501(c)(3)

We coined the phrase "Faux Indian" so we get to write the definition too. If you don't like it, feel free to hit your back button, create your own phrases and build your own website .

The people profiled on these pages have established themselves as PUBLIC FIGURES and in doing so, they have opened themselves up to public scrutiny and criticism. They are self proclaimed Medicine People, Chiefs, Spiritual Teachers, Clan Mothers, Directors of 501(c)3 's or non recognized "Tribal" Leaders of some kind. This site is not here to harass private individuals, it is here to monitor and report on the questionable activities of people who have taken on a Leadership position in the community. Self proclaimed Gurus only...NO PRIVATE GRIPES...we have another site for that

I think most NAFPS members would agree with this definition. The problem is, I have seen Betsy repeatedly accuse people of being faux Indians when there is no evidence they are engaged in any of the behaviors described above , and instead she tends to lable people as "faux Indian" for no other crime than having some native descent which they claim , without any more entitlements attached.

There may be an understandable reason for this. I think the problems are complicated enough there is a tendancy for all sides to get overwhelmed and start trying to use simple definitions of race to create self protective boundaries. As many people have been legitimately hurt by having these boundaries violated, this gets even further complicated by peoples feelings of resentment and anger.

This is a bit awkward because I want to reference what I am saying, but i don't want to drag disputes from other boards over here, especially as what I'm wanting to point out is interwoven with a lot of other personal disputes and i don't want to misrepresent anyone by presenting things out of context.

Below is links to just a few of the discussions where the subject of peoples identity as “ faux Indians “ has come up .

earth, ajibic, diabolos, keely, moot... PMs

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34940&whichpage=1

long cut n paste for Betsy Boopsy

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35152&whichpage=1

hijack

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35190&whichpage=1

Kangi aka Raven aka Delano Eagle aka Eva, etc.

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35365&whichpage=1

Is this you Danny Moon?

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36490&whichpage=1

Danny Moon Leave Earth7 the hell alone!

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36648&whichpage=1

What I see here is people who are of some Native descent who aren't enrolled being repeatedly confronted for being 'faux Indians “even though there is no reason to believe they have ever “ claimed to represent, teach about, or collect money for "Native American Indians" in some shape, form or fashion....usually with a 501(c)(3)” and even though people who are enrolled Indians have repeatedly defended these people and pointed this out.

I am concerned because i see what looks to be innocent mixed blood people being confronted in the most inflamatory, derogatory and humiliating way possible.

Betsy frequently uses language like “taco turd”, “ lying mexicali poser”, “skank”, when speaking to these mixed blood people. Even after it's been shown her accusations are groundless she continues to harass and degrade these people.  ( see page 6- 9 of the “is this you Danny Moon?" thread  for one example )

When Native people who post over on Indianz have tried to explain that unerolled descendents , who really are of native descent but don't claim to be anything they aren't, and who aren't claiming any faux entitlements should not be accused of being faux Indians, these enrolled Native people have also been subject to harrassment, or told they are also a faux Indian . In the threads below after Betsy was repeatedly told to stop , and she refused to listen, some comments were made about not liking clueless White people who don't listen who feel they have a right to tell Indians what to do . These comments were made after months of trying to explain this to Betsy , but they were then taken out of context and Earth was accused of being a racist .

So here I am

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36483&whichpage=1

What can i say

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36628&whichpage=1

A Little Note to Visiting Germans

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36693&whichpage=1

This situation seems to be complicated by the fact Betsy is lending support to some important issues which affect the native community, and there is some native people who have come to appreciate this support .

Unfortunantly for mixed blood people, many exploiters use claims of mixed racial identity to weasle their way into a faux claim to entitlements. As can be seen in the heated discussions that happen here , these gray areas are loaded with many complex issues, many different opinions and many people who just aren't interested in considering the needs of anyone but themselves. Understandably a lot of Native people get feeling completely fed up with mixed blood people and their faux entitlements , and as the problem is most easily identified as mixed blood people, someone like Betsy who advocates their extermination offers a tempting alternative to trying to resist their never ending demanding and often manipulative behaviors.

While I understand why enrollment is the simplest way to define who is and isn't entitled to Native identity / resources / culture, it isn't so clear why this is important to Betsy Ashby. It seems Betsy is a bit weak on understanding the complex multi layered internal definitions of right and wrong, and in her desire to define who is a faux Indian she is trying to create a simplified red and white definition of right and wrong which is defined purely on the basis of someones racial idenity .

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35225&whichpage=2

E.Y.Y.
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I dont got a single identity.

Guardian
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Obviously. Do you not know that is what makes you a Faux Indian?

arawakmix
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Does that mean a mixed blood Indian can't identify as mixed?

Guardian
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No, that means that a person either has a single identity ...or none at all

The comment below also shows Betsy has a bit of an attitude about mixed blood people .... In this comment Betsy is reffering to when she asked Al about the ad she found advertising for a second wife. It's interesting because it sounds like the fact that he was mixed blood and Mexican / Apache descent was more of the issue in her mind than the search for a second wife.

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34966&whichpage=1

Guardian
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Posted - 11/01/2008
Being my usual subtle self, I confronted Carroll with this post containing his claim to be of mixed race just like the people he was accusing, and he went off the deep end ....

I've never seen Al accuse anyone of being mixed race ...Culturally clueless yes, but I've never seen Al focus on a persons BQ. Why would Betsy even say she “confronted” him with being mixed race as if in Betsy's mind being mixed blood is some kind of is wrongdoing .... ? As far back as i can find postings on line, Al has mentioned being mixed blood . It's seems like “confronting” someone for having toes or ears...

What I am seeing is Betsy frequently confronts people calling them a faux Indian using this simplified racial definition , and not the behavioral definition as is described on her website.

I really don't agree with this. People can change behavior that creates problems but they can't change their race . Humiliating people will not gain their respect or their coperation.

Even more bizarrely, Betsy says she wants to annihilate all faux Indians.

Hijack p 3

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35190&whichpage=3

Guardian
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Posted - 11/13/2008 : 08:01:42 AM
I was completely truthful when I came to this forum ...and to Donna's board and every other similar list I have joined. My purpose is the COMPLETE and TOTAL Annihilation of EVERY Faux Indian I find.....ANYWHERE! I do not care where they hide, or who they hide behind,...every scam they are running, every lie they are living, I WILL EXPOSE and DESTROY! All the resources and abilities I have at my disposal are dedicated to this end until I can find no more!

I can't support anyone who wants to annihilate mixed blood people, as besides being racist it's impractical as the only way to accomplish this wouild be genocide .

Even Betsy seems to realize this is impractical , and I'm not really sure betsy has the genocidal ambitions logicaly connected thought processes would lead me to believe, because she just recently announced she thinks mixed blood people are going to be the only race of the future and she thinks this is really really kewl ...

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36805&whichpage=1

Guardian
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Posted - 04/22/2009
Mixed bloods ie: us mutts, are in the process of becoming a distinctly new race of humanity... one which I think will eventually span the entire planet in another 800-1000 years or so. One race made from ALL the other races. At our present rate of interbreeding, I calculate North and Central America should be populated primarily by this new race of mixed race people in 300 years or less. I know the thought of this happening upsets many Indians AND Anglos, but to me fighting the process is kinda like arguing about the weather.
(con...)
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While some mutts (and full bloods) bemoan this condition, I think it is VERY VERY KEWL!!
I'm not sure if she means she thinks it's kewl that people who think like her will soon be able to hunt down and annihilate everyone , or if she saying she thinks it's kewl that in 300 years everybody will be what she calls faux Indians? ( I guess that would be assuming people like her don't annihilate their forebearers first ????? )

To be honest I have the impression Betsy is a bit confused.

For example, coming back to her strong dislike of NAFPS , I am still having a really hard time understanding why Betsy seems so determined to undermine the work we do here, and why she seems to have such an enduring grudge against Al.

Part of the problem seems to be that although Betsy claims to want to learn how to identify frauds and exploiters, she seems to be stubronly refusing to cooperate with definitions that don't fit in with her own established beliefs.

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35225&whichpage=1

Guardian
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From what I have seen thus far (and I had to learn this the HARD way) American Indians do not charge for anything of a Spiritual nature and generally only expect payment for physical labor or material services rendered. This is almost unique to Cultures which had no monetary system prior to Colonization.

[edit] In various other Cultures there is no separation between Spiritual and Material issues at all...the two are

one and the same. Not paying for assistance with a Spiritual matter is no different than having someone chop a cord of wood for you and not paying them. In many of these Traditions, the payment is completely determined by the same extremely intricate binary system of Divination that is used to assist the Petitioner.

Con...

Likewise for Traditions all over the planet that have intermixed with other Cultures and used money(coin) for thousands of years. Cards, bones, stones, shells, astrology, fire, water, music, etc.,.. are all used by different Cultures to determine who is taught and/or given what, when and for how much, if anything.

So, within Betsy's own belief system charging for ceremonies is OK , and she seems to refuse to accept that in most Native traditions, and also in many European traditions , someone commercializing ceremonies and Prayer is seen as a serious violation of the Sacred. Because Betsy won't  accept this,  she sets herself up to miss the most obvious clues someone isn't really a Spitiual leader or strongly connected with an indigenous community and she can't see that what someone like Brooke Medicine Eagle is DOING is sufficent to know they aren't practicing the traditional ways they claim. I don't see where it matters if brooke medicine Eagle is enrolled or not, unless she was only selling ceremonies to people enrolled in her own tribe. Then that would be an entirely internal issue for the tribe to deal with. But Betsy continues to try to define the problem purely as a persons enrollment.

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34966&whichpage=1

Guardian
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Posted-10/31/2008
I am trying to untangle an old puzzle without dragging an enrolled? Indian through the mud AGAIN just because her name is similar to a fraud's :-(I DO understand that some Enrolled Indians are teaching Anglos things other enrolled Indians think they should not be sharing, but to be blunt.. that is not my business. My focus is on the Faux Indians, not the real ones who are offending other real ones. I am not even going to try to open that can of worms


Guardian
Posted-10/31/2008:
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I am NOT trying to start a flame fest ! I know many Indians do not approve of what this woman is doing....as is your absolute right. All I want to know is one thing PLEASE ?

Is this woman an enrolled member of the Crow Nation as she publicly claims?

Nice she agrees native people have a right to say this is wrong , but I have to wonder why she doesn't feel members of  NAFPS have the right to support the Native people who say this is wrong. Betsy has to know many many traditionalists and Elders have said the same thing. This is not a definition members of NAFPS invented all on their own.

part 2 will be added in a few minuts ...
(just edited for typos and garbled wording )
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 01:01:08 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 684
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2009, 10:41:36 pm »
Part 2
It seems to me , her idea that the only people who have a role in discouraging exploitation are people enrolled in the same tribe as the exploiters is really impractical. If it is “anglos” who are providing rewards and encouraging Native people to ignore their Elders , these same “anglos” have responsibility for who and what they are empowering.

I think we all agree if an enrolled Native person is providing support only to other enrolled Native people , any problems that comes up are soley within the jurisdicition of the Native community. But as soon as an enrolled person begins serving a non native community , if there is a problem, the reality is that problem  has it's roots and solutions in both communities. The definitions of what is and isn't appropriate use of cultural ways needs to come from Elders living in culturally strong Native communities , but the solution to stopping exploitation , needs to come through a respectful and cooperative relationship between both communities.

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34966&whichpage=1

Guardian
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Posted - 11/03/2008
You said "No self respecting actual Native person would do what she does. " and this is EXACTLY the problem. Non Indians DO NOT know what is and is not acceptable in the Indian community (con...)

I am trying to educate my community about your community.

Betsy knows , she just doesn't want to listen. I wonder why ?

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36064&whichpage=2

Guardian
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Posted - 02/06/2009 : 03:27:19 AM

Quote
quote:Originally posted by Fire_Brand
P.S Guardian.
As I have already said in one of these threads, I don't think there is anything wrong with you going after exploiters and predators. I think you doing that is a good thing since it is a huge problem.

I just think you should stop at that cause the rest such as who is Native and who is not etc is none of your business.

Now this post makes absolutely NO sense to me at all??
If I do not learn who is "native" and who is not, as defined by Indians, then how will I know who is an exploiter?

Guardian
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Posted - 02/07/2009 : 09:56:43 AM

quote:Originally posted by Fire_Brand
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I don't necessarily hate Guardian or anything. I just think she should stick to busting predators and exploiters and that is that.

Have no fear, I will.

However, it will not be YOUR perception of "predators and exploiters" that I will be using as my definition.


I'm glad she understands the importance of being selective about who she give the authority to define this, but I think she still has a long long long way to go when it comes to fine tuning her ability to make sensible choices in who she listens to. .

For example just recently over on indianz.com I see LAKOTA_SIOUXPERMAN AKA John Martin is back to his old tricks ... He had a disagreement with a female poster over there and dealt with it by getting  verbally aggressive and lewd .

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36290&whichpage=7

LAKOTA_SIOUXPERMAN Posted - 03/10/2009
Quote
You want some drama white lady? See if you can wrap your big mouth around my huge Lakota cock you stinky skank.

FU very much

LS

In one of the links above, titled “is this you Danny Moon “ Betsy decided she was interested in confronting someone selling ceremonies as this person had the same name as Danny Moon who is a poster over on Indianz.com who criticized her . John Martin had previously said he supported Betsy 110% . it seems he likes the fact she isn't wanting to interfer with native people who start a business selling ceremonies and she is only going after people who aren't enrolled. Danny is of Mexican descent. For some reason ,  John Martin  has been bugging Danny for years, accusing him of being Al Carroll.

In the past, John Martin has defended people like Scarlet Kinny as having a right to charge for ceremonies, but he got very angry and threatening with the Indianz.com poster Danny Moon when Betsy found an ad showing someone also called Danny Moon selling Lakota ceremonies... Once he found out it wasn't the same person, and it was 2 people with the same name, Martin said he didn't think there was really a problem – and then instead of apologizing, and seemingly for no reason at all, both him and Betsy bizarrely continued to accuse the Danny of saying and doing other things he clearly could be proven to have not done.

But putting all the personal disputes that happen over there aside, what I thought was interesting was Betsy was willing to imagine even an individual as obviously whacky as John Martin has the right to decide when it's Ok the collectively owned Spiritual practices of the Lakota people are being exploited – and even when Betsy must know many Lakota Elders have clearly said this exploitation is not OK.

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36490&whichpage=9

Guardian
Posted-03/23/2009
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IF LS is satisfied with the data regarding the person who is exploiting HIS Spiritual beliefs, kewl.

Why would Betsy choose to ignore these many Elders and instead listen to one nutty individual. ..?

Thats kind of like assuming any American can say it's OK for China to start logging the National Parks.

And interestingly, although John martin has always used the fact some NAFPS members are European as a way to discredit what we do here, he likes and supports Betsy Ashby.

More to the point he probably really likes the power she is willing to give him.

Which probably leads into the strange accusations in the link below that NAFPS is secretly connected to White Nationalists. The bottom line seems to be this is a discussion about power, who has it, and who is serving whom.

Oakland "rave" to make mockery of Native cultures

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36587&whichpage=1

The information provided by NAFPS does discourage non native people from displacing the authority of the true leaders of indigenous peoples and empowering themselves through using native identiies , culture and resources, but it also discourages non native people from empowering people like John Martin as Spiritual leaders. Not that Martin has ever claimed this. It seems some people like him feel really resentful of a motley group of people like NAFPS getting in the way of them doing whatever they like with their own culture. While I understand this point of view, I can't support it, and Betsy seems to be inflamming and exploiting these feelings for her own reasons .

I don't think something like who is supporting ' White nationalists” AKA “White dominence” AKA non natives or natives serving nonnative needs at the expence of their own people can, be defined along purely racial defintions anymore than “faux Indains “ is something that can be defined purely along either or racial catagories. It's all about who has the power, and who empowers who , in hopes of getting what,  for the benifit of who.

With this in mind, i'd be really curious if Betsy could explian how educating non native people about their responsibilities to respect the right of Native communities, when it comes to choosing and empowering their own leaders, and the right of these leaders to manage, protect and maintain their own resources and culture, is in any way serving the intrests of  White Nationalists?

In keeping with the question of “ who has the power”, and who is being served,  the key issue seems to be ensuring that non native or people of primarily non native descent respect the values and boundaries as they are defined by the indigenous leaders who are serving the needs of their own indigenous people.

So the other line of attack against NAFPS is to try and make the case that people posting here are creating their own definitions or have no business supporting the Elders who have defined these things, and it should only be enrolled Natives that give this support.

Both these arguments don't make sense as clearly many Elders have spoken on the issues and to insist their positions should not be supported by activists outside their own tribes would greatly damage tribes ability to achieve respectful and cooperative reltionships with people outside their own community . When Betsy tries to use this arguement to discredit NAFPS ,  it makes even less sense , as this type of outside support is what she herself claims to be doing.

As completely off the wall as some of Betsy's accusations are, some of what she says has some truth in it.

We probably all sometimes confuse our own assuptions or perceptions with the facts and I agree with Betsy this is something everyone involved in exposing misinformation needs to work to avoid. That is one of the strengths in working as a part of a large mostly open group. We all have blind spots but luckily we all usually have different blind spots.

If someone in NAFPS posts something thats wrong, it's almost certain someone will quickly come along and point out the error. One of the strengths of NAFPS is that there is lots of people with different points of view who participate here and who ask questions and challenge what they see as incorrect or incomplete information.

Of course on any public internet group it's going to happen that people say stuff that isn't true and damages someone elses reputation . This happens over on Indianz.com at least once a day, in yet I don't see Betsy bragging about having that on line group shut down , and in fact she thinks it's a great place to learn stuff. If she is really concerned about message boards where people get unfairly accused of stuff this double standard doesn't make any sense at all.

Considering all the above it seems what Betsy really objects to is the fact that NAFPS supports the protection of ceremonies which gets in the way of the nonnative people accessing what they imagine to be authentic traditional  teachings / seminars / workshops and ceremonies , or utilizing parts of these to create something new.

Betsy's real concerns may have more to do with making sure White people have access to what she imagines is authentic cultural products This is evidenced by her comments below ...

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34966&whichpage=2

Guardian
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Posted - 11/03/2008
The people who have the MONEY and/or political clout these frauds want are more often than not concerned with the legitimacy of the people they give their time, money, and efforts to.

This is evidenced over and over again by how quickly Anglo benefactors drop a fraud once he or she is exposed as one. This is ESPECIALLY true for those non Indians who donate to what they think are Indian causes simply because they think Indians got a really raw deal. The "guilt givers" A huge portion of the fundage the frauds receive is coming from Grants and donations made by people who have no contact with Indian cultures at all, nor do they really want any. They just want to help a group of people who got royally screwed so they donate to what they think is an Indian School, Shelter, Heating Assistance Program, etc. whatever sad sounding scam the fraud is running.

Likewise, when an Anglo pays a hefty chunk of change for ANY seminar, class, etc. they ARE NOT happy when they hear the Teacher pulled her credentials out of her butt. There are some people who believe they are here on this Earth to learn, and they get REALLY ticked off when they find out they have been taught a pack of lies.

Even those who follow the Faux Indians out of ego alone do not wish to be associated with someone who has been widely exposed as a fraud ....bad for the image you know <BEG>

I KNOW I will not be able to stop all of them, but I intend to make on hell of a dent in their bank accounts.

Almost all of Betsy's complaints about NAFPS are directed specifically at Al.. Some of what she complains about has some grounds in reality. Al is human and sometimes makes mistakes and like all of us doesn't always notice or want to deal with it.

For example, in his post above he says Betsy IS in a polygamous relationship . Which isn't true. What I read was she WAS in a long term realtionship with a woman who she reffers to as her significant other and she says this womans child called her Mom and so did another womans child who she lived with. Also Al says Betsy was a follower of Brooke , and Betsy denies having any connection to Brooke or being her follower – If this is true maybe the fact Betsy went so far as to get NAFPS silenced because she says Al thought Brooke Medicine Eagle and Brooke Schiavi were both the same person, is where Al got this impression. It does seem Betsy has put a lot more effort into criticizing NAFPS than the frauds she claims to want to expose.

Usually Al's mistakes can be explained as he's busy and has lots on his mind and sometimes the details get confused. Other times i think maybe he just gets feeling over whelmed with people trying to find a way to shove elephant sized guilt into every mouse sized crack in his character and he just dosn't want to give people another opprotunity .

Considering the intensity of dealing with some of the stuff he does , he seems to do a pretty good job of keep things in perspective. I think most of us look to him for leadership, not because he makes him self important in any way, but because he usually provides a strong stable sensitive and intellegent response. He is quite reliable about providing this and because of this he does act like the back bone of the group . One of the things i really appreciate about Al is his unusual combination of having a thick skin and enough sensitivity to respond to some really complex and painful issues. Very few people would have the unique skill set required to do what he does here. I see how much time and energy he gives to this project, with little or no compensation ,  putting up with constant harrassment and even if he does make mistakes sometimes i still really respect him for all he does here.

One of the ways people attempt to undermine the information provided here is through attacks on Al's character, as if the credibility of what thousands of Elders has said depends on Al being able to get everything in his life perfect beyond reproach.

One of the biggest complaints people make about Al is that he sometimes claims to be Mescalero Apache without saying he is Irish / Mexican / unenrolled Mescalero Apache every time.  I can understand some people would find this annoying and anybody who does this without being enrolled is setting themselves up to get criticized.

 I don't think claiming a tribe as your primary identity if the tribe doesn't claim you is a good idea . I know some people get confused about this, because there is or was many traditional leaders who acknowledge unenrolled descendents as their People and many people who have been acknowledged in this way feel it's Ok to self identify in the same way.

With all the people trying to worm their way into faux entitlements exploiting the generousity of this type of acknowledgement , it has become increasingly obvious that when unenrolled people call themselves Indians it can be the first step to faux entitlements, and it is those faux entitlements that creates problems, so generally speaking ,  i don't think it's a good idea for people who aren't claimed by their tribe to claim the tribe , as their strongest or first identity .  I don't know the details of Al's life , but considering all he does to discourage people with faux entitlements , I'm not sure how much that matters.  I don't see where he is supporting anyone making claims to faux entitlements , or making any himself,. I've never seen Al  "teach" anything about Apache traditions or culture which isn't the most basic facts which could be found in a text book, and as already pointed out, the idea that advocates for respecting Native rights must be enrolled in the tribe they are advocating for is silly. So I don't think this is a major problem , though I do understand it is a sensitive issue and it could be irritating to some people who for good reason object to  unenrolled descendents identifying themselves as being of a tribe that doesn't formally claim them.

Betsy with her super sleuth data mining abilities seems to have ignored the fact that Al never hid that he is a mix of Mexican and American Indian with strong ties to the Mexican community. Mixed blood people frequently feel more of a connection with a particualr aspect of their heritage at different times in different communities, the information he was mixed blood has always been publicly posted and there for all the world to see.

http://www.yforum.com/content/default.aspx?pg=bestof%5Cbest090599.html

Quote
Question:
Is it true that people in Mexico do not like Hispanic Americans?

I never felt any hateful prejudice against me, but sometimes an amused belief that I wasn't "really" Mexican because I'm much taller than your average Mexican, I dress "American" (though in America I'm seen as dressing "cholo"), my Spanish has a lot of slang, and so on. (con...)Many of us recognized that, to a white racist, "somos illegales," we're all seen as wetbacks, and we have to overcome that together.

POSTED 9/7/1999


A.C.C., W Lafayette, IN, United States, <bigi__@yahoo.com> , Mexican and American Indian, Grad student, Over 4 Years of College, Mesg ID 93199922018

And posted the same day ..

Quote
Question:
Why do some whites attempt to use aspects of Native American tribal religions, often through paying money for something? And when they do, why do they insist it's an attempt to 'honor' or 'join' us, when for the most part they don't live in or work for the benefit of our communities?


It's just sad that many, like Carlos Castaneda and Heheyosts Storm, have exploited this for their own greed and ego. To any whites who want to learn about us, why don't you try talking to us and not these snake oil salesmen? Come to a powwow or read God Is Red, one of the best books out there on native spirituality.

POSTED 9/7/1999

A.C.C., W Lafayette, IN, United States, <bigi__@yahoo.com> , Mexican and American Indian, Grad student, Over 4 Years of College, Mesg ID 93199923723

From the film Spirits for Sale

http://www.journeyman.tv/?lid=59085&tmpl=transcript
Quote
10:09:08:19 – 10:09:42:21
Al Carroll: My name is Al Carroll, my background, my ancestry, my heritage, is Mescalero Apache. I'm also Mexican and Irish. I teach American history. San Antonio has about one million people. When I grew up, it was a very racist town to grow up in. I was getting in fights almost every week I was in school. Usually over some racist comment, over being called I'm a redskin or a red back or a prairie nigger. Or being told I look like a nigger, or some other racist remark

So, it looks to me Al has always been open about the fact he is mixed in his identity. And with no claims of faux entitlements, I don't agree that that someones mixed racial identity makes them a 'faux indian” who deserves to be annihilated.

I began my comments on Betsy's efforts to discredit the information provided here , with the example of the ad which Betsy posted with no URL in 2006. I see where she has now pointed out 3 other similar entries made through Al's old yahoo account which refer to his interest in polygamy or his search for a second wife.

I talked to someone who has known Al for about 10 -11 years who was involved in the original Our Red Earth group. I think Al was also involved with this in the same time frame, and that is how this woman got to know Al. This person says around the same time those ads were placed, she had her yahoo account hacked and some inappropriate stuff put in her profile to do with her work , making it sound like she had inappropriate relationships with some of the people she worked with . At the time Al was involved in doing academic research on indigenous polygamy. So maybe that is the explanation as to how those entries came to be made using Al's yahoo account.

At this point I'm not sure what to think. I guess it's entirely possible Al did something foolish when he was younger and with so many people looking to find fault with him he doesn't want to admit this ... But it seems odd he would deny this if he was the one to make those posts. These posts do say he is looking for a second wife, not someone to secretly have sex with. Wives are not usually easy to keep secret, and if Al was comfortable enough to be advertising for a second wife, it doesn't make a lot of sense that he would suddenly be shy about people finding out he did this.

So my first guess is that Al also had his yahoo account hacked. If Betsy actually thinks Al's possible potential polygamous tendencies might be a danger to the public. I suppose it's fair for Betsy to bring the stuff she found to the publics attention, though I'm not sure it's at all relevant to what he does here and I don't see any good reason to try and humiliate Al with this. I've never seen any clues he is a womanizer , still looking, or that he is less than happily married to his one wife.  NAFPS isn't a dating service and I can't imagine Al has much face to face contact with other NAFPS members .

Part 3 in a minute

(just edited for typos and garbled wording )
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 01:10:29 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2009, 10:48:50 pm »
Part 3
Again Betsy shows some odd double standards when she discounts the information Al provides on the grounds he is a pervert but she doesn't feel John Martins lewd comments should affect his credibility .

One of the criticisms Betsy often makes of NAFPS, is that what is posted here isn't always backed up by documentation. 

This is true, but even if something is backed up by documentation that still doesn't mean it proves what someone is trying to say it does. Many of the “faux” tribes people object to have selcted out of context documentation to legitimaize their claims. I also notice that though Besty does provide some evidence to back up her conclusions, she seems to have a bad habit of inserting her own interpretation of the evidence as if it is a documented “fact” . The facts are used to make her conclusions seem “ proven” but often there is no real connection and her statements just aren't true. I think we all sometimes confuse our perceptions with objective reality and, being human we don't notice when we do . Betsy does this a lot..

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35186

Quote
Posted - 11/12/2008
Originally posted by Guardian
Greetings Ms. Ross,
Do you know that you have erroneously been placed on the "Don't pay to pray" lists located here?
http://dehaluyi.googlepages.com/home
http://www.geocities.com/dont_pay_to_pray/list.html
"Ross, Gayle (aka Tawohdih) "

Your listing is one of the MANY reasons we do not include these sites on our list of Faux Indian resources
From a thread discussing when NAFPS was shut down for a couple days in January

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36101&whichpage=1

Guardian
Quote
Posted - 02/05/2009 :  11:01:03 AM

 
Quote
  quote:Originally posted by Chizhii L. Bows

    I would miss 'em. They do excellent work collecting information and exposing fakes and flakes.

Guardian
I REALLY wish this was true...it would have saved me a lot of grief years ago, but I learned early on that Carroll and Co. routinely post grossly inaccurate information. They will not admit it, or retract their false statements, even after their mistakes are well proven. Opinions and differences in perception are one thing, but the NAFPS folks have actually misidentify people with similar names, listed a well known Enrolled Cherokee Storyteller as a fraud, etc.

Tawohdih was wrongly listed as a "Fraud" on the missing forum. Gayle Ross is an Enrolled Tribal member and a recognized storyteller in her Tribe. Putting someone like her on a Fraud list renders the entire document useless. Not only do they damage an innocent Tribal member, they completely waste the efforts of those volunteers who took the time to check their facts and expose the real frauds who do make up the majority of the list.

There are still four sites up that reposted the same false information....perhaps unknowingly?
http://occultforums.com/archives/index.php?act=Print&client=printer&f=81&t=19575
http://dehaluyi.googlepages.com/home
http://www.geocities.com/dont_pay_to_pray/list.html
http://ca.geocities.com/dont_pay_to_pray/list.html

These webmasters would do well to remove Ms. Ross from their Fraud Lists immediately, and an public apology to her at the same URL would be very appropriate.
It would not be a bad idea to remove the DEAD people from the list too.

Note to Heather: I know who you are, and I understand and agree with what you are trying to do. Unfortunately you CANNOT trust any information acquired through NAFPS. From what I have personally experianced, Al Carroll cares more about what people think of him than he does about accuracy.


earthw7
Quote
Posted - 02/05/2009
I don't know who Heather is but I am have been a member of the site for a long time. Dead people need to stay on the list because we have followers who use their names. Al is just one of the moderators not the owner of the site. DUH! some people.
Everyone post information that we recieve in email or on sites posted then other people send in their information. of course we get attracked when people tend to think that they are getting attacked. All it is posting information. As you know Guardian you have been on list. The other people had personal disagreement with Al who does not own the site. David yeagley who is native has been a joking back and forth on the site as well as many other so people get upset. another DUH!
I am going to miss the site, I know there has been a problem with a group in Europe who has been having problems with who they are. So that is what I see is the problem. It is another one of those personal issues between a member and another individual.
the sites had what nine moderators.

Guardian
Quote
Posted - 02/05/2009 :  12:56:34 PM 

    quote:Originally posted by earthw7

   
Quote
I don't know who Heather is

Guardian
Sorry.....Heather is the person circulating the "Do not Pay to Pray" Fraud list that Gayle Ross is on.


So Gayle Ross wasn't listed as a fraud by NAFPS at all, and in fact Gayle Ross is one of the people in the movie protesting cultural appropriation called "Spirits for Sale" which was organized by NAFPS members.

Although Betsy may not see it,  her accusations are not always well researched before she makes them .

And if Besty honestly wants to be guided by Native people, why does she ignore what many Native people are telling her,  and instead continue to try and find fault with the information provided in NAFPS?

Below is another example of the misinformation Betsy is circulating to try and discredit the information provided here

From the Oakland Rave thread page 2

http://64.38.12.138/boardx/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36587&whichpage=2

guardian
Quote
I do not lie, but I do not expect people to just believe whatever I write either ...after all, this is the Internet. This is why I post the PROOF of everything I write, so people can view the data and decide for themselves what is going on.

Despite her claims , Betsy doesn't always present all her documentation so people can examine it for themselves and figure out what going on . For example, that ad Betsy posted about Al looking for a second wife which she seems to enjoy using as a reason to call him a pervert was posted for over 2 years with no URL included . In the thread where Betsy posted additional links to these entries, she then called me a "lying rodent" for doubting her claims and not just taking her word for it ... I guess Porcupines are members of the rodent family but i don't lie, and if i don't always get all the fact straight it sure isn't ever intentional.

Here is another example of one of the many things Betsy claims that conflates information and on closer examination can be seen to be not true.......( She is trying to convince people NAFPS is really a front for White nationalists that hate Indians )

Oakland Rave p2
Quote
Posted - 04/15/2009
There is a reason most of NAFPS's victims are either enrolled Indians trying to help their own people, or non-Christian Anglos trying to reclaim their OWN pre-Christian practices

Where exactly did Betsy see someone who was enrolled who is serving their own community listed in research needed or frauds? I guess there may be a couple people who serve their own community but who are also involved with a lot of non native people who get discussed here – like Lenord Crow Dog , but to suggest “most” of the people discussed in NAFPS come anywhere near to matching this description is an outright lie. Almost all of the people listed in NAFPS as questionable or as making untrue claims about themselves are catering to a mainly non native audience or unenrolled PODIAs. So this statement just isn't true, but it does provoke an emotion of “Who the heck do they think they are?” which provides a cover for the statement that follows.

Betsy then goes on to make the astounding assumption people of non native background are reclaiming their OWN prechristian beliefs when they practice out of context native ceremonies. Please note her emphasis on the words OWN, as this is probably a clue as to the real reason she objects to NAFPS. We are getting in the way of her faux entitlements to the cultural practices she feels she has a right to OWN. She seems to be dealing with this by imagining the solution is  finding the real live authentic enrolled Indians who are willing to share them. If she wasn't looking to get something from Indians for herself and her pagan friends, why would she need to be able to distinguish real Indians from fake ones?  Why would she need to learn this , if she wasn't planning on going shopping for authentic goods?

In a thread titled Guardian Wannabe Mole over at Indianz a while back I also saw that Betsy called me a lying rodent and threatened to find out exactly who i am . I can't see any reason she would need to do this. I've never made any potentially misleading claims about myself except that i'm familiar with the territory on both sides of the fence. I see people getting hurt on both sides, and I hope what I have contributed here might in some small way help to reduce that problem. If Betsy wants to disagree with me on some of the issues discussed here, thats fine, buit she isn't welcome to try and find out where I might be vulnerable to harrassment, and that  is the only reason I can see Betsy would want to find out who i am. It is generally accepted in the courts that engaging in free speech on cotroversial issues can result in harrassment and people have a right to protect themselves from being intimidated into shutting up, through remaining anonymous  .Obviously what is discussed here is controversial , and it can be easily proven people participating here have been both harrsssed and threatened.

I always do my best to tell the truth and to defend what is good . It's for me to decide what's safe for me to expose about myself, not Betsy Ashby , and i really don't appreciate being threatened by someone who *claims* to be working towards the same goals I am.

I am not the only person here who has been harrassed and threatened, and i know there is others who have been intimidated by this.

Thats not OK and it needs to stop.

I should also add Indianz.com is talking about dumping it's archives and i'm not sure how long these links will continue to work .

Sorry this is so long but I feel there is some important issues involved here.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2009, 02:21:18 am »
Part 2
Also Al says Betsy was a follower of Brooke , and Betsy denies having any connection to Brooke or being her follower – If this is true maybe the fact Betsy went so far as to get NAFPS silenced because she says Al thought Brooke Medicine Eagle and Brooke Schiavi were both the same person, is where Al got this impression. It does seem Betsy has put a lot more effort into criticizing NAFPS than the frauds she claims to want to expose.

Usually Al's mistakes can be explained as he's busy and has lots on his mind and sometimes the details get confused. Other times i think maybe he just gets feeling over whelmed with people trying to find a way to shove elephant sized guilt into every mouse sized crack in his character and he just dosn't want to give people another opprotunity .

Considering the intensity of dealing with some of the stuff he does , he seems to do a pretty good job of keep things in perspective. I think most of us look to him for leadership, not because he makes him self important in any way, but because he usually provides a strong stable sensitive and intellegent response.

It's not an impression, it's a fact that Ashby doesn't want to admit to now. In her letters to me, Ashby repeatedly stated her admiration for Brooke Edwards and bragged about having attended Edwards' pay to pray ceremonies. That she doesn't think there's anything wrong with selling ceremony is something you point to yourself.

It's also quite telling Ashby has never gotten angry at Brooke Schiavi for stealing Edwards' twinkie name of Medicine Eagle. And she's such a rabid follower of Edwards she thought it quite funny Edwards supposedly got an AIM protester shot. (I doubt that story myself.) Finally, recall also that the Crow have been saying Edwards is a fraud for decades, and that even Edwards now no longer calls herself Crow, claiming instead to be Metis.

If anyone thinks either myself, or NAFPS as a sites, doesn't admit to mistakes, why do I say the exact opposite in our Who We Are page? Someone could also point to threads in Archives marked No Longer a Matter of Concern, as well as the threads moved from one section to another, sometimes more than once.

And I've always tried to stress I'm one just mod out of five, one member out of nearly a thousand now. I think I get the most attention because I don't hide who I am in real life, which also happens to be a historian.

Offline earthw7

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2009, 03:03:59 am »
I can always count on both of you to be honest and stand up for what is right
In Spirit

Offline RESPECT_09

  • Posts: 3
Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2009, 06:04:48 pm »
Quote
One of the biggest complaints people make about Al is that he sometimes claims to be Mescalero Apache without saying he is Irish / Mexican / unenrolled Mescalero Apache every time
Quote

If this guy Al says he's part Apache then whoopi-dee-doo. Hell, i'm part German. Big deal. ;D

Offline AlaskaGrl

  • Posts: 195
Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2010, 10:10:07 pm »
What a great list !  Do you think "they" read it?  Not where I am they don't... 

Offline fredvoss

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Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2010, 08:31:46 pm »
Dear Forum,

under the culture of gypsies there are never exist shamans.

By meaning of European language-sciencer, gypsies come from India.

In India there exist two tribes who speak a language like gypsies.

At my knowledge gypsies never teach their religious practions to non-gypsies.

greetings
fredvoss


Offline Lodro

  • Posts: 32
Re: NAFPS Takes Pride In Those Who Call Us Their "Enemy"
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2010, 09:22:17 pm »
For those who want references to Roma or Sinti spirituality, "Bury Me Standing" by Isabel Fonseca is an excellent resource and very thoroughly researched:

http://www.indiastar.com/wallia2.htm

Offline Saga

  • Posts: 53
Kiesha's trollish fans
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2010, 01:57:54 pm »
Facebook page for the "Prophets Conference": http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Prophets-Conference/111924078836385?ref=ts

Robin Johnson's public profile on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=512549725

Some great comments yes, and then one that claims that nafps doesn't have real natives as members and most of us are white females and everything here is "fraud" too. Under Yells At Pretendians's link about Kiesha.

Quote
NAFPS "exposes frauds" the same way a kettle calls a pot "black."
NAFPS has very few ACTIVE members, most of whom are white females living in Europe, according to impartial internet stat monitors. Those very few NAFPS members who claim to be... "of Native descent" do not feel compelled to adhere to the same standards they demand of those they attack, i.e. few if any reveal their "real" names, enrollment status, their family's names, while they root around the net like truffle-hogs hunting for any similar (true or fabricated) dots to connect to their pre-judgments. They claim the must hold private their own personal information to "protect" their members from "death threats and harrassment" while ignoring the very same firestorm of havoc and potential violence they create in the lives of others, including the innocent. NAFPS moderators, of course, think themselves to be the perfect "judges" of who is and isn't a fraud - and in more than one case, it is a matter of the moderators "protesting fraudulant behaviour a little too much." Having aggrandized themselves, and collected a small cult of followers who blindly believe their inept research, they pompously expect their victims to show up on their forum to "answer to them!" as though their targets would ever be given a fair and impartial platform - tried by the ignorant, the arrogant, and the irreverant there. What good they may do is tainted by the shameful self-serving acts of their egoistic "crusades." Like those they condemn, NAFPS has lost its way and fallen into the realm of the misled and the misleading. Pity.

[removed personal information]
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 09:43:24 pm by Yells At Pretendians »

Offline 2012hoax

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Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2012, 09:30:25 pm »
Just wanted to bring your attention to this message I received.  Apparently whoever this person is, thinks that I am "Dr. Al Carroll":

http://www.2012hoax.org/rants#toc27

The link is to a blog that hasn't been updated since 2008, and to an entry that gloats about how this site was 'taken down' (and yet, it still seems to be here 3 years later). 


Offline Smart Mule

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Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2012, 09:37:29 pm »
Hi Hoax, I'm assuming you were contacted by Mary Novak.  Please read the thread about her in Research Needed.  The link was one of the many she sent me last night. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3441.0

Offline 2012hoax

  • Posts: 11
Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2012, 10:25:43 pm »
hm... could be.  

She seems to have a 'thing' for educatedindian and this site... quite a grudge.   Why she thinks I am him is beyond me.   Even if she found his article on our site through a search engine, she obvously didn't bother to read it, as it clearly states that it is his "guest view".  

Regardless, I reported the account she created on wikidot for abuse.  
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 10:30:03 pm by 2012hoax »

Offline Smart Mule

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Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2012, 10:31:56 pm »
She thought (using her super psychic powers) that I was a young male (I'm not any kind of male) and that the OP in the Mary Novak thread was a Celtic woman.  And of course she thinks Al is a demon.  Her perception skills are lacking.

I'm glad you reported her, as is evident here she would not have stopped her behavior and would have ended up spamming your site.

Offline earthw7

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Re: NAFPS takes pride in being called "Enemy"
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2012, 06:18:14 pm »
I just got an email from dreamtime on Al :o :o
i guess we will all get emails ::)
In Spirit