Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters

[nahualqo]

What will you do?

I will repeat my earlier warning: think very carefully before posting anything else.

[A.R.]

Barnaby

First the Europeans call your people "The Mongols" and come to your lands to take photographs, skull and other measurements to prove that you are of a "inferior race", by the Aryan superiority standards.  So that even when the danger has passed, your family still lives in fear and silence about the family's dark skin colour and Asiatic looks, this factor being something never to be talked about even in the family circle itself, but the heaviness is always there.

When at a very young age, you realize, that you are not the same as white Europeans, the question becomes: "Who the heck am I ?"    And all this kind of silence about your origins creates so much confusion in your life and a wound about your identity, which is also always there.    Then when you do reconnect with your very own cultural heritage (which was there all the time anyway, it just wasn't to be spoken about) you  come to fully know it's and your own Eastern, Siberian origins ...... you've gone through a full circle and become whole again.

So then when you come out and admit it, never wanting to go to that fear of silence again ..... all of a sudden it is: "Who do you  t-h-i-n-k  you are claiming Siberian Native Heritage" !

When I talk to the persons of the "Stolen Generation" here in Australia, which is a different situation, yet in sharing our stories I find  there to be that many similarities it is not funny !

I find affinity with it, and this affinity is something I don't think you can fully comprehend  Barnaby.

I have got great many concerns regarding to the topic of this thread.

A.R.

[Personal insults removed.]

[Moma_porcupine]

A.R.

Therefore I personally do take an offence of a white man becoming "The Native Police" in the matters of Aboriginal genuineness.

A.R

So what makes you now "The White Knight" looking after "Indians" .... I wonder.

A.R

"Fraud" name calling cuts deep and makes me very angry when I hear it time and time again from non-Natives, who do not know what they are talking about.

P.S.
And have I been given permission from Aboriginal Elders and Educators to speak about Australian Aboriginal issues ? Yes I have, I was taught for this very reason. 

A.R.

When it comes to "selling Native culture" commercially.   Tourists love it, others judge it as superficial and fake, there are many opinions.   But in the end of the day, I see that it is the only employment opportunity many have.   And as such it comes to the difference between living, what non-Natives would call normal life, (and having opportunities they take utterly for granted),  and that of living in a "third wold" type of powerty, health problems, low self esteem, alcoholism .... etc. etc. conditions.   
So how dare non-Natives judge !

-----------------------------------

So ....A. R.  What your saying is that you aren't indiginous to this continent , but you feel tou have some sort of authorization from Aboriginal Elders in Australia ( who also aren't from this continent ) to make rude and racist remarks to the people who ARE supporting MANY MANY MANY Elders on this continent ?

Aren't you just one more of those self rightous non native people you are complaining about , coming and telling native people what to do , and how to do it ?

Or is there some recognized Native Elders on this continent who don't want non native people telling the truth about people who claim to be Spiritual leaders who are really liars and exploiters ?

If you are representing  Elders from this continent , who believe and frauds and exploiters shouldn't be exposed could you please name them ? ( and I don't mean known frauds and exploiters )

We are only concerned if people are LYING about who they are or what Native traditions are . ( and suggesting it is traditional and not exploitive and degrading , to charge and commercialy develop Spiritual traditions IS LYING ) People have a right to tell the truth no matter what race they are , even if Y-O-U don't like it.

Oh by the way , A.R. is the same person as Artnwere from the Carlos Castaneda Twilight zone forum . If people read through the threads they will see A.R. and nahualqo are mutual admires of each other .

http://www.percivale.co.uk/castacontin/viewtopic.php?p=6527&sid=b5acecc56a5d3f4e16d9de0ad4c0b192
Both A.R. and Artnwere are  from a Finno-Urgric background , both in the habit od S-P-E-L-L-I-N-G
words with dashes , both residing in Austraila .

Hhmmmm makes you wonder what A.R. s real concerns are . i doubt they actually have anything to do with supporting native people on this continent .

[educatedindian]

AR,
I've asked you several times to give a little introduction about yourself. You keep avoiding doing so, yet you continue to give us what you claim to be details of your life and your alleged authorization from Australia's Aboriginal peoples and elders. I have a hard time believing they'd give you such authorization and yet want your identity kept secret.
Also, you claim to be Siberian, but your email address (which anyone can see under Members) has what appears to be your name, Anneli Rodney. Perhaps you could explain what seems to be an Anglo last name and a Nordic first name?
And if you are a follower of N, then obviously that is one more deception of his, when he claimed to only teach those with NDN ancestry.

[Freija]

[

When it comes to "selling Native culture" commercially.   Tourists love it, others judge it as superficial and fake, there are many opinions.   But in the end of the day, I see that it is the only employment opportunity many have.   And as such it comes to the difference between living, what non-Natives would call normal life, (and having opportunities they take utterly for granted),  and that of living in a "third wold" type of powerty, health problems, low self esteem, alcoholism .... etc. etc. conditions.   So how dare non-Natives judge !

I don´t quite understand the heated comments, because the protests should come from the person who is wrongfully accused, i e the spiritual leader. But it won´t if he is who he says he is. I can´t see any of the medicinepeople I know start a battle on an Internet Forum - they´d go out and pray, they´d go to a ceremony, they know that the truth is a shield that will keep them protected. The medicinemen/spiritual leaders/Elders I know would not worry about it, they would have enough support from the spirit world to keep them safe.

So it seems that the worry of people being judged has more to do with worrying about exploiters loosing their income.

[frederica]

It's like throwing a handful of dust to the wind. It's just justification, control, and rationalization. Really doesn't amount to anything. I'm suprised only a few have been dragged in for support. We are only 1-3% of the population and 3% is pushing it, so if the Elders decide support is needed, that is the way it will be. frederica

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Barnaby

First the Europeans call your people "The Mongols" and come to your lands to take photographs, skull and other measurements to prove that you are of a "inferior race", by the Aryan superiority standards.  So that even when the danger has passed, your family still lives in fear and silence about the family's dark skin colour and Asiatic looks, this factor being something never to be talked about even in the family circle itself, but the heaviness is always there.

When at a very young age, you realize, that you are not the same as white Europeans, the question becomes: "Who the heck am I ?"    And all this kind of silence about your origins creates so much confusion in your life and a wound about your identity, which is also always there.

Nobody measured your skull: a few months ago you wrote on the Redwebz forum about "physically having inherited my granfather's white looks". I doubt whether European-looking people with a Siberian grandparent are persecuted much in Australia.

Lots of people think "who the heck am I?" when they're young: it's called being a teenager. Unfortunately you still write like a particularly angry one: "I'm different. I'm special. They don't understand me. You don't understand me. You're a fascist!" Give me a break.

Why, if I and the other Europeans active in this forum are such colonialist pigs, do the Indian majority here put up with us? I didn't start this forum, I don't own the website. If I or any European here was out of line we'd soon know about it, and you're calling into question the judgment of the Indian people here by suggesting otherwise.

[Ingeborg]

Also, you claim to be Siberian, but your email address (which anyone can see under Members) has what appears to be your name, Anneli Rodney. Perhaps you could explain what seems to be an Anglo last name and a Nordic first name?

I'd take 'Anneli' for a German name. It's a bit outdated now. The name combines 'Anne/Anna' and a shortened form of 'Elisabeth' = abbrev. 'Liese' (pronounced 'leeza') to Anneliese, Annelie, or Anneli.

[Freija]

Al is right, it is very common here in the Nordic countries. I have three friends called Anneli or Annelie  ;D

[A.R.]

This is all turning into a genuine real life soap opera.

Regarding my identity.   Is it Native or non, how could you tell; - is it in the name I've given you ?

Just how superficial is this fraud hunting going to get ?

Honestly, is your Native or non Native identity determined by names you give out on public forums ?


In the area, where I lived before, there was a Native American, who came annually to hold weekend retreats, Sweats were part of it, and I can't remember how much they did cost.    I didn't go to those, nor his talks, because there was nothing drawing me to them, but it didn't even enter my head and still doesn't to "go after" these people, to determine whether they are frauds or not.   Or to "go after" the people organizing or attending such gatherings.

That sort of thing would be down right ugly.   For me that sort of thing would feel like a recruitment to a Nazi party. 
Is this sort of nasty and ugly business "going after" some Native Americans for some other Native Americans going to make me a "Spiritual Warrior"; - mind boggles.

There was however a time, when I could feel a presence of a Native American person, very strongly.   The feeling just came out-of-a-blue.   After three days, feeling  this strong presence, I had to ring my friend about it, another Finno-Ugric person, for she understands these things.  
I blurted out on the phone that I had felt this strong presence, and that this Native American is on the mountains.  
My friend started to laugh, because she had just 5 minutes ago come home from the markets, - held  on the mountains, and there she had seen a stall selling Native American artifacts.   This she had never seen there before.   Then a man came to talk to her, who was a Native American.   I asked my friend if she was sure that he was, and my friend said yes, because he told her so.

Now had this person selling artifacts, - who's presence I trust I was feeling, (because it was too much of a coincidence), come to my local area to give a talk or something, I would have gone, because there was this real and genuine presence.

You may call this "New Age", but there is nothing "Nuage" about it, and this is how I personally determine, who is genuine and real, who is not.

And I know there are Native Americans, who know this.
It IS an open secret.

And if you don't know it, then whether I called myself Tom, Dick or Harriett, it is not going to make any difference.

And I still wouldn't go calling this person, who held those Sweats a "fraud", how do I know, I wasn't there, and maybe the people really got something out of those retreats ? 

A.R.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Is it Native or non, how could you tell; - is it in the name I've given you ?

It's obvious from the way you write as well as what you write about yourself.

[Freija]

You may call this "New Age", but there is nothing "Nuage" about it, and this is how I personally determine, who is genuine and real, who is not.

And I know there are Native Americans, who know this.
It IS an open secret.

Hej A.R.
No, I don´t think there is anything Nuage about that either. I don´t even think it is a secret. I believe in "things" that we cannot always explain and most Elders and medicinepeople have these kind of gifts. But I also believe that we have to balance these gifts with living in the real world.

So, I guess you´re saying that we should "feel" who you are. (Traditional Ndn:s - well, everyone I have met - always introduce themselves very carefully. Maybe you haven´t spent that much time in Native communities?) And my feeling is that you, just like me, is a non-Native. I am not in here to argue, I am just trying to understand why the wishes and feelings from a vast majority of traditional Indians are disrespected?

Or to "go after" the people organizing or attending such gatherings. That sort of thing would be down right ugly.   For me that sort of thing would feel like a recruitment to a Nazi party. 

Well, I don´t believe in "going after" like hunting someone down and bashing his head in. I believe in informing people. Like we do in the film. I inform them about what most Ndn:s feel about the abuse of ceremonies - according to many Elder´s wishes, and I guess you´ve read the links that have been posted in here?

Do you think it is wrong informing people about what the "other side" think? Shouldn´t everyone be allowed to choose what path they want to walk based on facts from both sides, even if you don´t share the view of "the other" side? Wouldn´t that be the decent thing to do? To let people make up their mind themselves?

And I still wouldn't go calling this person, who held those Sweats a "fraud", how do I know, I wasn't there, and maybe the people really got something out of those retreats ? 

Well, this is a tricky thing...a rapist gets something out of raping women. Does it make it right?

[educatedindian]

"Regarding my identity.   Is it Native or non, how could you tell; - is it in the name I've given you ?
Just how superficial is this fraud hunting going to get ?"

Yep, you definitely are an admirer or imitator of N. Same martyr complex, same persecution paranoia.

All we've done is asked you to say hello and say who you are, and you break out the Nazi comparisons. (See below.)

"In the area, where I lived before, there was a Native American, who came annually to hold weekend retreats, Sweats were part of it, and I can't remember how much they did cost. I didn't go to those, nor his talks, because there was nothing drawing me to them, but it didn't even enter my head and still doesn't to "go after" these people, to determine whether they are frauds or not."

If he was charging and inviting anyone who had the money, that's a fraud.

"For me that sort of thing would feel like a recruitment to a Nazi party."

There it is.

You bet, asking questions if someone is what they claim to be, that somehow equals the systematic genocide of 12 million people.

That's the sort of thing said by people who've never experienced real prejudice in their very sheltered life.
 
"Is this sort of nasty and ugly business "going after" some Native Americans for some other Native Americans going to make me a "Spiritual Warrior"; - mind boggles."

The mind boggles at how little you understand about Natives.

"There was however a time, when I could feel a presence of a Native American person, very strongly.   The feeling just came out-of-a-blue. After three days, feeling  this strong presence, I had to ring my friend about it, another Finno-Ugric person, for she understands these things. I blurted out on the phone that I had felt this strong presence, and that this Native American is on the mountains."

THE INDIAN IS HERE! Sorry, everyone. Annika knows what I'm talking about.

This sort of thing kept happening to her and people she brought over to Sweden to speak on NDN issues. Nuagers kept trying to prove how sooper-spirchul they are by claiming to see NDN spirits.

AR, once again, you keep dodging the question.

If you won't say who you are, how about saying why you won't say it?

Or are you going to tell us, as N did, that your life would be in danger?

[Freija]

THE INDIAN IS HERE! Sorry, everyone. Annika knows what I'm talking about.

;D ;D ;D
OH, I just remembered when you spoke at the New Age place and that pigeon landed on the windowsill - and everyone cried out: "AAAAH, look!! His totemanimal!!"

By the way, Al, nice to hear that you are now Swedish according to people in here. Our favourite fraud - you know who I mean - says that all Indians will be reincarnated as Swedes, so I can understand you...why wait until you die??!  ;D ;D

[A.R.]

NAFPS

Educatedindian

Hello, let me introduce myself, I am a Karelian person, living in Australia.

A little bit of history here.   After being occupied by both the Swedish and the Russians, Finland did finally get it's independence in 1917.   
Karelia wanted to become part of the independent Finland, but my grandparents on both sides, with my parents had to flee their lands in Karelia in 1940, because those lands once again became under Russian rule.   
Karelians belong to the East-Baltic race in which European features are blended with Mongolian traits.

These Mongolian traits are my family traits.

And when it comes to the my reference to Nazi, two of my uncles fought beside the Saami in Lapland against the Nazi invasion.   Because of our family's dark skin colour and Asiatic looks, the Aryan superiority of the Nazis was considered to be a real threat, so that even when the danger passed and we lived in peace time in our language relatives country Finland, where I was born, the origins of our Mongolian traits was something never to be talked about.   
I speak Karelian dialect, but I no longer can speak Karelian proper, the language of my grandmothers, language which I could understand, but not quite when I heard them speak it.

But going back a bit, under the Swedish occupation, the Christianizing and civilization of our peoples started in earnest.

Under the threat of punishment, it became forbidden to give offerings to our Sacred Sites, Sacred Groves and Spirit Trees.   In the "Spirit-of-the-Place" places called Hiisi, Sacred Rocks were smashed, and those places were now to be called of the devil.   Could write about this on and on, but I think you do get the picture.

We were shamed and ridiculed for our animist beliefs and our shamanic culture, but still, in many places our Christianizing and civilization was only a thin veneer, and people still practiced their culture. My grandmothers still practiced the old ways as did other Karelians in their villages, though now in total secrecy in  a "foreign fast Westernizing country" that we now lived in.   Still though holding fast to our ethnicity.

As I said earlier "I have got great many concerns regarding to the topic of this thread", and in the end of the day, I do hope, that I have created a question mark around the whole issue for both Natives and non-Natives here.   

It seems that Western Europeans take every word the Native Americans speak about "indigeousness" as a gospel; - or haven't you noticed it as yet ! 

In the process of "standard making" such statements as: The New Agers use the 'we' word, The New Agers talk about 'Totems' etc. etc.makes me stop and think: "But hang on a minute", this is not so, not from my own cultural perspective anyway, and we do talk about Totems in my neighbourhood here in Australia locally, as the person may talk about his or her own, or is pointing out the Totems of others to me .... and this is just in a normal ordinary everyday conversation, and there is nothing New Age about it, that's for sure. 
Because of my own cultural background I can relate to it, though of course there are differences, the Animals themselves for starters, whom you consider as being your Ancestors, and the way you receive your Totem, but still, the way I have perceived a person's Totem  within ordinary Reality without knowing it first, is considered as normal, that's how you perceive it, - so there are similarities as well.

But if this, what is considered as normal talk and normal perception is related to Western European who is out to catch NAFPS'es, then this becomes "The New Age" talking.

And where on Earth do they get all these rules ! ?  From the NAFPS "rule book" it seems.

It is all very well for the Native Americans to "educate" nonNatives about genuine Native American and New Age differences, this is good, but I guess one could make a whole list these things, that does not apply to others, yet they are being applied to others. 

Under the Swedish occupation, Sacred Groves were cut down and churches built on top of them.   In the areas f.e.x. where there were "Bear Totemics", areas where it was forbidden to kill your Ancestral Grandfather, the bears were killed and then the skins were nailed on church walls for everyone to see, in a manner of: "Look at your Grandfathers now !" 

So when a Swedish person here says:

OH, I just remembered when you spoke at the New Age place and that pigeon landed on the windowsill - and everyone cried out: "AAAAH, look!! His totemanimal!!"
Freija

For me this is like going back in time all over again, back in time when we were so ridiculed for our Totemism; - and it is as though nothing has changed.
It is the same all over again, and in this time it takes place in NAFPS forum.

I think Freija summarized it well:

By the way, Al, nice to hear that you are now Swedish according to people in here. Our favourite fraud - you know who I mean - says that all Indians will be reincarnated as Swedes, so I can understand you...why wait until you die??!  ;D ;D
Freija

My very own Cultural Spiritual Heritage belongs to the Finno-Ugric group and it originates from Siberia and it is still being practiced.
If one does not live one's own culture in some ways, it becomes lost it in approaching monoculture of sameness.
But I intend to hold onto my Siberian Shamanic Reality Orientation and Worldview despite NAFPS and the European "right-hand-men/women" dictating the truths about Totemic etc. beliefs and practices I am not supposed to have.

A.R.