Re: Online article:"Selling of Sacred Spirits"

[SQuid]

This is the only posting that comes up in a search for "international Indian Treaty Council" so I am ressurrecting the topic posted here. (Move it if there's a better place to park it.)

From an online article "Selling of Sacred Spirits" -
"Antonio Gonzales, director of the International Indian Treaty Council in San Francisco, rejects federal recognition as the ultimate credential. "That's a colonial classification," he says, adding that "when people say they are a quarter Cherokee, we take them for their word." Also, he points out that "the majority of Indians in North America do not live on reservations,'' yet they rightfully continue to carry pipes and perform ceremony."

Not sure I agree nor disagree - not familiar with the man nor the Council - just thought it adds to the discussion(s)  (and complications) regarding defining.

The article further quotes Wilma Mankiller:
"Medicine men and women need to be paid to survive, agrees Wilma Mankiller, chief of the 120,000-strong Cherokee nation of Oklahoma. But like many traditionalists, Chief Mankiller worries about "Indian hobbyists," and those who pray with them - and prey on them - for profit."

Also adding to the blurry lines for many - as some here state "NO money for ANY medicine..."
Again, just the messenger, trying to figure out where I stand too....

[Moma_porcupine]

Hi SQid

I don't see where this thread is about the IITC or how your post has anything to do with this thread , or for that matter why you would do a search on the IITC if you are wondering about who to listen to when there seems to be different opinions about whats right?

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are wanting to discuss here and why, but it sounds like you may be asking  "Who should people listen to when there is different opinions ?"

Maybe this post could be moved to ect and a new thread with that title could be started , or have i misunderstood what you are saying and why you chose to post in this thread?

[SQuid]

Good call, Mama P - maybe etc would be a better place for it, I just didn't want somebody calling me out saying there was already a thread on the topic - so i looked best i could for a thread beforehand, using the search, and finally landed here. You know the territory better than I do. Thanks.

[bls926]

I wasn't online much today and it sure looks like I missed something. What happened to this thread? Started out twice in Frauds, both locked and moved. One thread was actually deleted or moved to some secret place that we don't have access to. The other thread was moved to Etcetera. Three posts in this thread and frederica has edited all three. I don't think I've ever seen anything like this happen before. What is going on? Oh, and where is the article? You know, the one this thread is supposedly about? Online article:"Selling of Sacred Spirits" This reads like a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing.

[frederica]

The thread was put under a Cherokee Blackfoot Cultural Circle, I guess for what he/she didn't know where to put it.  No article was ever posted just "comments".  I moved it to Etcetera and retitled it.  Had to merge the other parts into the thread.  Everything that was posted on the thread is there, they automatically lock when moved. I deleted one as it was redundent.  It's not a plot BLS.  The are stated to be edited as they were merged and moved by myself.  Nothing is missing.  Only 3 posts.

[Moma_porcupine]

The article SQuid was selectively quoting from is here.

http://ca.geocities.com/dont_pay_to_pray/SellingOfSacredSpirits.html

SQuid seems to be pointing out some of the differences of opinion, and seems to be asking about this.

I guess I would suggest to first of all listen to a number of comments on the same subject from people recognized by their own people as having enough knowledge on the topic to comment.

So...looking at a number of authoritative sources , starting with the one comment quoted by SQuid

The article further quotes Wilma Mankiller:
"Medicine men and women need to be paid to survive, agrees Wilma Mankiller, chief of the 120,000-strong Cherokee nation of Oklahoma. But like many traditionalists, Chief Mankiller worries about "Indian hobbyists," and those who pray with them - and prey on them - for profit."

The CNO website used to say this

http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/CulInfo/FAQ/83/Default.aspx

How do I find a Cherokee Medicine Man?
Although there are many practicing medicine men and women today, they do not advertise, nor do they solicit clients. In addition, they do not charge set fees for their services.

If you are a traditional Cherokee, who believes and lives the Cherokee way, you will be familiar with who these people are, or will know others who will lead you to one. Also, Cherokee acquaintances (aunts, uncles, neighbors) may refer you if they are aware of your need.

We are not at liberty to suggest such an individual

Now the website says this ;

http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/13/Page/default.aspx

Traditional Cherokees consult with medicine people for help with medical problems, dilemmas in their lives, or other problems. There are fewer of them alive and practicing today, but are still well known by traditionals and in the Cherokee communities. It is not accepted for these medicine people to advertise or make their services known in other ways. The proper way to find a medicine person is to be part of a Cherokee community, ceremonial ground, or family, and come to know this person through those connections. (As a tribal government, we are not at liberty to disclose the names of these persons.)

Briefly quoting from a longer comment by Richard Allan who is a member of the CNO and is involved in cultural protection ;
http://www.thepeoplespaths.net/Articles2001/RLAllen-CherokeeStatement-Shamans.htm

Cherokee medicine people and spiritual leaders are known to the Cherokee people and do not practice medicine for a fee nor sell "shamanic" lessons to anyone. They do not advertise their services through any form of media and certainly not over the internet.

Traditional Cherokee healers and spiritual leaders provide their services to the Cherokee people. A Cherokee medicine person or spiritual leader is fluent in the Cherokee language and would conduct any medical or spiritual practices by using the Cherokee language. Therefore, our medicine people are those who were born of a Cherokee mother and a Cherokee father and would have been reared within a Cherokee community speaking the Cherokee language. Our traditional Cherokee healers and spiritual leaders are humble people and would not present themselves as such nor "hang out a shingle" so to speak.

Cherokee medicine people are acknowledged and recognized by members of the Cherokee community as effective healers and leaders. It is the recognition of the Cherokee people that validates these persons as medicine people and healers not self-proclaimation. We may provide them small gifts, a token amount of money or foodstuffs in payment for their services nor would they withhold their services when asked and they certainly would not prescibe payment by credit card.

If after listening to a range of opinions from authoritive sources there seems to be a difference of opinion between people who say selling something is OK and that selling something is degrading, I would support the people wanting to protect cultural traditions from being degraded through commercialization as in any community there will always be some people who would sell anything.

As for the comment from the IITC - I think it may be important to notice the date of this article is 1991 , which was before the internet began recruiting so many individuals with a story of a gr great granadma who was NDN to imagine they are entitled to be considered a " Nation". I doubt these groups are who Mr Gonzales was reffering to.
 
There are many unenrolled people who have substantial Native heritage. From what I have seen, people leading ceremonies need the solid , lifelong , multifaceted support of the indigenous community where these ceremonies originated to maintain them properly. If people don't have this support , considering the many problems that can come up, it usually seems it would be better if people living outside native communities used their energy to support the Spiritual leaders within strong Native communities, rather than attempting to remove these ceremonies from the community where they originated.

Just my own opinion... Other people may see this differently .

[bls926]

The thread was put under a Cherokee Blackfoot Cultural Circle, I guess for what he/she didn't know where to put it.  No article was ever posted just "comments".  I moved it to Etcetera and retitled it.  Had to merge the other parts into the thread.  Everything that was posted on the thread is there, they automatically lock when moved. I deleted one as it was redundent.  It's not a plot BLS.  The are stated to be edited as they were merged and moved by myself.  Nothing is missing.  Only 3 posts.

I never thought it was "a plot", frederica. It's just that after so many posts went missing from the 27th and 28th, it makes you wonder. And there have been posts that were moved for no apparent reason, as well as threads that were merged into other threads. It doesn't hurt to ask.