HauntedFox

[hauntedfox]

Hi All,
been suggested by debbieredbear that I introduce myself.  My name is Ashley, I'm a white Englishman from Nottingham in the UK. I've led an interesting spiritual life, having travelled the world after leaving university, been involved in earth based spiritual practices all my life, in particular the modern neo-pagan idea of witchcraft and, while maintaining my ties to the craft (just become one of 5 trustees of a collection of artefacts and copyrights belonging to the late Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente) I've always "gone my own way" with regard to persoanl spirituality. I met WaNaNeeChe a few years ago and we've been friends for a while, I make no secret of that while defending him and his practices on these boards. I believe spirituality is a subjective thing, an individual spirit and its relationship with the world (universe) around but when we find common ground there is much good that can come of it. My relationship with WaNaNeeChe has been very good, I think for us both, I have helped him to bring his message to people which is simply to empower themselves to have a spiritual relationship with the universe around them, with the energies, the spirits and the creator. I respect his cultural slant on things but find it (and him0 nothing more than that, a "slant", his message is that ALL two-leggeds are able to (re)connect to their own spirit, its not an exclusive club for anyone whose spirit is born into a particular ethnic group and I respect and admire his view that we cannot complete the human circle of life and make our mother earth wholoe and healed again if we do not recognise our common spiritual ancestry, even if this offends some cultural boundaries in its achievement.

I am not an expert in native american traditions or cultures, I understand that as a westerner I am "outside" that and accept my place in the scheme of things, whatever that may turn out to be. So I respect those posting here when they disagree about the way certain things should be done and the crass way that others go about doing them and doing them wrong and then telling lies about how they learned things and who they are (in their human form). I've not cuaght WaNaNeeChe out lying yet!!! You may think he isn't doing some things "right" but he is not claiming to be someone he's not, making a living (let alone getting rich!) out of his activities and he's not conning or hoodwinking people by selling them spirituality from a culture that neither he nor they understand.

Sounds like I only came on these forums to defend my friend from unfair attacks . . . thats true, I think I did! .  . unfair is wrong, attacks are ok . .  so by all means criticise facts but knock off the slurs about "he must be fake cos my sister's cousin saw him speak and didn't like him" . .  especially when there are so many other idiots out there who ARE profiteering and getting rich on the back of telling cultural/spiritual/tradional/ceremonial lies to other idiots too foolish to stand up for themselves and their own spirits . .

and thats it, really . . . !

Greetings to you all

[nemesis]

Ashley

I don't think that anyone here would disagree with you that every person is entitled to find their own spiritual path for themselves.

I think that the problem that people here have with your friend WaNaNeeChe is that he is taking elements of sacred traditions that do belong to native people, mixing them with various newage concepts (like for example tarot) and and then selling them to gullible newagers.

It is essentially important that you understand that native ceremonies are not conducted for self development or as a form of therapy.  Ceremonies are tribe specific and function as a way of consolidating ancestral and inter-communal relationships within a specific tribe.  Central to the ceremonies is the idea of service to your family, your ancestors and your tribe.  It is the complete opposite of the newage concept of self discovery as part of a "me, me, me" agenda.

It is also essentially important that you understand the history of actual and cultural genocide, ethnic cleansing, boarding schools, land theft, broken promises and betrayals etc. that represent the history of the NDN people in relation to white people. 

Since NDN people first encountered white people on their land, the attitude of the whites, for the most part, had been to just assume that whatever belongs to NDNs can be taken from them with impunity, whether it is their land, their sacred artefacts, their language, even their children. 

One of the most odious representations of this form of racist attitude today is manifested by the countless white people who feel completely comfortable about appropriating NDN ceremonies, often mixing them with newage concepts, and then marketing them as a product for financial gain.

I just the thread about your friend WaNaNeeChe and it would appear that he is a white man pretending to be NDN (often referred to as "pretendians") and who is involved in the offensive, abusive and racist business of selling pseudo-native ceremonies to white people for money.

It seems that you are quite enamoured of this WaNaNeeChe and I doubt that anyone here is going to change your mind about him, but you should not be surprised when people are angry and offended by his behaviour. 

[hauntedfox]

Hi and thanks for that.

Racially I feel deeply ashamed of what my ancestors did in North America (and many other parts of the world), I can't change the past or my ethnicity, however sorrowful I feel about either,  but can still act today to help people to better understand the enormity of the past and to search for a future where humankind (or whats left of it) can properly co-exist, whether this be in the physical or non-physical worlds. i think all humans are doomed if people from ALL cultures don't start thinknig and acting this way.

So I DO understand what you mean about the despicable way NDN culture is abused and misused by westerners, perhaps like myself, with a lack of understanding that some ceremonies are tribe specific and will only "work" in the correct cultural context. In my own practices of western cultural spirituality  for instance I know of many people who try to replicate something on a "magical" (non-physical) level cos they've seen someone else do it and then they wonder why it didn't "work" for them .  .  and I see many many examples of people trading on the credulousness and gullibility of others, it makes my heart feel very sad and I DO take action appropriately when I find this sort of thing . .

From what I can tell through my own experiences with WNNC and my own studies over many years of interest in a culkture to whioch I accept I do not belong,  I am finding there is spiritual truth in my relationship with the spirit world through the things WNNC and I have been doing together, I've not noticed him using any technique or spiritual practice that strikes me as being culturally specific  - I do fancy that I understand (at least at the intellectual level) what every part of his ceremonies are about, what each part represents etc and again I find nothing culturally specific in such a way that it should only "work" or be right for one tribe.

2 small facts to correct - WNNC most certainly isn't a white man and he does not deal in tarot cards. His white eagle cards are symbolic representations of certain animals and concepts that can be used on a psycological level to work with someone's subconscious (I suppose in a similar manner to the way tarot cards probably "work") but I've never heard him use the word "tarot", he has said that the cards are a poor substitute for "real" nature but can help as representations of it particularly in white culture here in england where a bear or coyote isn't likely to be encountered face to face. perhaps we should work solely with indiginous creatures . . . in england that would be snails, pidgeons, stoats and fieldmice . .  with a scattering of flies, wasps, bees etc.  . .!!!!

In my heart and spirit I WISH I could, in any sort of acceptable way, apologise for or make right even a fraction of the hurt that some humans (my own ancestors) have done others, even on such a giant and indescribably horrendous scale as the way the whites have behaved to indiginous people outside their culture over the past few hundred years. I was born white, perhaps the great universal energies thought it would be good for me, or even comical to incarnate me as a white englishman - either way I cannot escape my culture or skin colour until the end of my earthly life no matter how ashamed I feel for the actions of others from the same background . . and while my whiteness doesn't define me it IS a part of me. I am a two-legged as well, however, a child of mother earth, the same as any other, I live . . I breathe . . my spirit is as real as anyone elses and as much a part of mother earth as anyone else's . . . I am making my way . . . and finding my friend WNNC is a good companion on my journey, thats not a crimne and I know no one here would say it is.

All I'm really trying to say to you guys is that it isn't fair to put WNNC in EXACTLY the same bracket as some of the outright conmen, child molesters, fakes, frauds and phonies I am reading about on this website, he is certainly morally above these despicable shameful creatures . . . and its certainly not fair to attack him (or anyone, actually) with stuff that simply isn't true - I agree that a shadow of suspicion SHOULD be cast on anyone of native origin who is working among the whites on a spiritual level. i also accept totally your point about the wrongness selling culture to white people for personal gain (either financially or spiritually) though I don't believe WNNC is actually 100% guilty of this and, if there are degrees of guilt, his is mild, certainly by comparison to many of the people featured on these forums.  thats all I'm saying.

[snorks]

Can you explain the difference between WNNC's earth lodges and sweat lodges?  How are they different from Native practices?  Since you are familiar with Neo-Paganism, is what he does "nature spirituality" or "ecospiritualism"?  

WNNC's practice may seem inoffensive but then again so does Brooke Medicine Eagle's, who makes money off of bastardized Native ceremonies.  Her proponents say the same things about her that you do about WNNC: "She is not really using Native ceremonies but leading people to a greater sense of spirituality."  However, digging deeper, the reasons that White people are attracted to her is because she feeds into their sense of "Indianness" and makes Native ceremonies as White people imagine them.  How is WNNC different?

[hauntedfox]

Hi Snorks,

its another good question.
I have to admit that what WNNC is actually doing is taking people into a dark space, honouring rocks which are heated in the fire which are then brought in to create a living connection to the greater spirits and energies of the world and cosmos and then pouring water on those rocks to create heat and steam which has the ceremonial intent to purify and cleanse - so if that sounbds like a sweat lodge, then its a sweat lodge. He makes the distinction that what people understand to be a sweat lodge is a "warrior's lodge" where there is a sense of ordeal to the event - is this correct or is this a further interpretation of a "sweat lodge" ?

Yes, he draws upon his culture for his practices, but he is no overt about it, its not the "main selling point" and he certainly discourages attendance from those seeking something that might be billed (crassly) as "a genuine native indian experience" . . . I think you may have hit upon what sets him apart, his indian-ness is intrinsic in what he's doing but its not "used" to appeal to people as an advertising gimmick, he's not encouraging people to attend because he's indian, just because he feels that people can connect to the source of all life and energy through what he does . .  sop in that sense he's really practicing a western spiritual path which is "flavoured" (not as a deliberate draw but because its aprt of his cultural heritage) with an "indian-ness".

i don't want you guys to be denied your right to be offended, but there are degrees of offence and it seems to me that WNNC is far from touting for business on the basis of his cultural heritage, its just part of what he is and what he does - if you said he shouldn't practice ANY native spirituality with non-native people then does that deny him some of his spiritual right?  But no, no one is denying a plain fact that white people turn up to his events, donate money to him and take part in ceremonies that refelect strongly his cultural background . . if this is offensive, fine, we'll live with that, but if this is offensive enough that it puts him in the same boat as the likes of Kiesher Crowther and Mervy Johnson then I feel compeeled to stand up and tell you you have your values about offensiveness out of balance!

do I make sense ?   I'm NOT trying to get you all to say "good old WaNaNeeChe, he's ok after all", I'm just trying to get you to view him as a different shade to the people in your "known frauds" section  . .

[hauntedfox]

To be honest with you, I am happy that WNNC currently resides in the "research needed" section - perhaps if you guys have a contact in the Uk who would like to come to one of his events that would definitely be the fairest way of passing judgement . . .

[hauntedfox]

Just thinking about it I suppose its a matter of resources for this forum, do you direct more energy at creating wider exposure of the more offensive/dangerous and blatant fraudsters or do you aim to categorise a maximum number of people as either fraud or non-fraud?

[nemesis]

Just thinking about it I suppose its a matter of resources for this forum, do you direct more energy at creating wider exposure of the more offensive/dangerous and blatant fraudsters or do you aim to categorise a maximum number of people as either fraud or non-fraud?

This forum is about educating people about what makes an individual fraudulent or not, amongst other things.  I think that your post represents a false dichotomy and it reminds me that sometimes people just don't want to accept reality, especially if they have become enamoured of their particular guru / teacher.

In such instances the people who defend frauds here also play a useful and valuable role inasmuch as they illustrate how positive transference and idealisation towards a perceived authority figure can result in impediments to reality testing.

Sometimes the information posted by supporters and defender of frauds that is the most helpful in terms of clarifying that an individual is fraudulent.

You are of course free to keep posting but I don't believe that your posts are doing you or WNNC any favours.

[Laurel]

In my heart and spirit I WISH I could, in any sort of acceptable way, apologise for or make right even a fraction of the hurt that some humans (my own ancestors) have done others, even on such a giant and indescribably horrendous scale as the way the whites have behaved to indiginous people outside their culture over the past few hundred years.

Person 1: Hey! Hello? I seem to have broken my leg. I see you have a cell phone. Would you mind dialing 911 for me?
Person 2: Wow, that looks painful. I'm very sincerely sorry your leg is broken, and I WISH I could help right even a few of the bones that suffered inside everyone whose leg was broken ever. But I can't go back in time and make sure your leg never gets broken, and I can't unbreak every leg ever broken, so there's no point in my calling 911 for you. And that's very sad, and I truly feel for you....[wanders off]
Person 1: OW! Damnit! That was less than no help at all!

Also, what's stopping you? The way you apologize is, you apologize. The way you help is, you ask whether you can help and how, listen to the answers you receive, and act on those answers to the best of your ability.

[hauntedfox]

fair enough:

how can I help with the hurt that has been done ?

[earthw7]

Hau,
How can you help!!! By stopping what is happening today to my people,
to stop the lies and misrepresentation of my culture.
It is not what has done in the past but what is still happening. Why is this site is here
To educate people on why this is wrong, so many non-native feel they have
the right to anothers culture Our culture. They do not!
When we say they do not have the right to our culture they get offended
and say I am so spritual by using your ways.
AND What the hell is a warrior sweat lodge????????????
I live my culture and you white people tend to come up with crazy stuff all the time.
The inipi/Sweat Lodge is a purification ceremony and this ceremonie is not done by all native in America,
Duh!! the cherokeee people never had an Inipi/Sweat Lodge nor the eastern tribes today the newager
have made up history and culture that did not exist for our people and now you want to justify why you can
abuse our culture and spirituality.
I am sorry hauntedfox but again you can not see you own your hand in front of you. I dont mean to be mean
but today native are about sick and tried of white people making us these kind and gentle people when we have to fight to preserve and protect what little we have today. All we want is to defend our world and protected our culture from you guys because you tend to take and take and then tells us
it should be yours. Sorry it is not