New here too

[kiyoshi]

I'm not Native--Euro/Asian bi-racial--had done some cultural borrowing (stealing) in my time.  Now apologize.  (I used to attend sweat lodges in the lesbian community, not connected with a tribe.)  I'm here to talk about a sweat lodge I attended some time back.  (Not a tribal sweat!  Leader claimed to be part Yaqui; hadn't been raised in a tribal situation and/or spiritually mentored in one.)  Thought some of the practices were kind of abusive.  Some boundaries overstepped including IMO sexual ones.  (Was using position as water pourer to get dates.  Pretended to "channel" a message that demanded all attractions be expressed now!) 

The leader of this lodge is now head dancer for a large women's sun dance which is now scheduled to meet regularly in northern NM.  I'm assuming she's still running sweats in that capacity.  She also now has more authority to abuse.

I'll post more in the forum under "needs research."  I happened to be one who fell for her "express your attraction" line.  We started "seeing each other" (meaningless sexual encounters which she referred to as "friendship" and asked me to "keep secret."  Kinda painful.)

I don't want this to happen to anyone else.  The sun dance, by the way, is attended by some Native women, but it isn't associated with any tribe.

[frederica]

Welcome, and regret your experience. That's very sad.

[earthw7]

welcome and hi

I have to remind you that the sundance is a male dance
It is a northern Plain ritual for men.
It is native as well as the inipi/lodge.
I am sorry for happened to you

[kiyoshi]

Thank you for the information about sun dance.  Yes.  Not too much about this women's sun dance matches what you say.  I'm not sure what all is going on at that dance, since I never attended.  I do know the sweat lodge leader who was abusing her power and pretending to be a healer of sorts is now head dancer of it, and I'm kind of concerned.  (At least, last I heard, she was head dancer.  I know she's still involved there.)  I guess how deep her involvement is might be one of those things I could look into.

I do know some Native women do attend that sun dance, but the dance itself isn't run by any particular tribe.  It started out as a dance for women of color in general, but again--it's not run by any tribe.  I think the whole thing is still kind of disrespectful.  I don't want to define it that way for the Native women who do attend, but I don't like that the head dancer I mentioned (who once ran that abusive sweat) is presenting herself as a tribal healer.  She isn't.  She uses Yaqui heritage as an excuse, but she has no training.

I'm worried for a couple reasons.  I'm afraid she might manipulate someone else, abuse someone else sexually.  I also worry because when I was attending lodge, she didn't want to let people leave the lodge, even when they were in physical distress.  Instead, she wanted to put her hands on them and "heal" the symptoms. I know one woman at one point had to be carried out of the lodge because the leader denied her requests to leave. I worry that some day, someone won't be carried out.  They'll just try to stay in and stay in because she tried to tell them to.

Thank you, Frederica.  Thank you Earthw7.  I don't want it to happen to anyone else.

[kosowith]

This kind of disrespect and misuse of the sweat lodge is terrible.  It does not sound like anything this woman and her group are doing is appropriate. I have been attending our Sun Dances since in the 1970s and there have always been women who dance. I've never been to a Sun Dance where there were not women dancers, but I have never, never heard of a Sun Dance just for women, or one run by a woman.  Never. 

I should mention that the Cheyenne are an exception.  The Sun Dance for them is classified as "belonging" to the women, but only the men dance.  The woman who is the Sun Dance women does not dance. 

[earthw7]

I did not say woman could not dance
I said the ceremony is for men and it is a man dance
The woman come to support and dance to support
the men.
To have dance for women ran by women
is just plain wrong
no business using or abusing this kind of ceremony

just because a tribe does not run it does not mean
it is correct nor does it mean that they have any rights
(sorry mistyped)

[kosowith]

Aagian just ecause i tribe does not run it does not mean
it is correct nor does it mean that they have any rights


I do not understand your last post? 

[Truth451]

IMHO, I think what earthw7 was saying is:

Again just because a tribe does not run it (that type of ceremony) does not mean
it is correct (to perform) nor does it mean that they have any rights (to perform any ceremony at all).   ??? ??? 
Just my thoughts.

[kiyoshi]

I'm so sorry about this.  I can see that i'm opening old wounds and stirring up old disagreements with this.  i'm not even sure where i stand about women dancing or not: it's not my culture. In the end, it really doesn't matter what i think about that.

I think in the end, my issue with what happened is really about an (IMO) abuse of power.  Anyone from any culture could have done this.  I'm kind of coming to the conclusion that if i want to hold this woman responsible for what she did, i need to focus on that and really stay out of other people's painful controversies. 

I do still apologize for the cultural borrowing I've done in the past.  I am grateful for the education i got on this site.  I wish you all well, and hope and love to you.