Robert Moss - Way of the Dreamer

[cleardreamer]

Born in Australia where he originally worked as professor of ancient history at Australian National University.

Relocated to the US in the late 1980s.

Cheesy Cold War-era spy novelist, formerly a London-based political journalist.
(http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Robert_Moss)

Claims to have been adopted into the Mohawk Nation in upstate New York.
(http://wiredforbooks.org/robertmoss/index.htm - contains RealAudio interview where he talks about this)

Currently hosts workshops worldwide in a technique he calls "Active Dreaming", which he claims is based on ancient Iroquois dream practices. He has written several books on the subject (Dreaming True, Conscious Dreaming, Dreamer's Book of the Dead), produced an audio cassette series, a set of DVDs on the matter, and a "shamanic drumming" CD. Much of the material he covers that isn't presented with a Native American slant appears to have been lifted from others who were writing on the subject of dreamwork back in the 1980s while he was busy writing spy novels and apparently fighting communism in South America and the former Soviet Union.

Claims to have been approached by Mohawk grandmothers at one of these workshops because he "dreams the way their ancestors used to". He claims that he was asked to lead their people in reclaiming these ways.

Author of several books involving the Iroquois (Fire Along the Sky, The Firekeeper, The Interpreter: A Story of Two Worlds), including something called Dreamways of the Iroquois, presented as non-fiction.

Claims to have survived numerous "near-death experiences" and provides services as a "shamanic counselor".

Has founded several "dream schools" in upstate New York, Connecticut, and Seattle, Washington. All of his contacts for these and for other workshops around the country are women.

Talks an awful lot about goddesses, "women of power" and sex (check a recent article in by him in Sacred Hoop Magazine, itself questionable, and published in the UK). Claims in his audio cassette series to be "a protector of women".

Seems to be offering an increasing number of "by invitation only" workshops and events.

Claims not to be New Age, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, flies like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's not a beautiful swan no matter how much it protests evidence to the contrary.

Website: http://www.mossdreams.com/

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Hi there Cleardreamer and welcome to the forum. I've moved this thread into 'research needed' temporarily while we clear something up.

Born in Australia where he originally worked as professor of ancient history at Australian National University...

Cheesy Cold War-era spy novelist, formerly a London-based political journalist.
(http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Robert_Moss)

Claims to have been adopted into the Mohawk Nation in upstate New York...Currently hosts workshops worldwide in a technique he calls "Active Dreaming", which he claims is based on ancient Iroquois dream practices.

Could we be talking about two or three people with the same name here? Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see anything in the links you gave us, or in a quick look around the web myself, which shows that the 'active dreaming' guy is the same person as the CIA guy, or anything about either of them formerly being professors. This is important, not least because the CIA guy apparently set someone up to be murdered by Pinochet's regime.

That said, the 'active dreaming' guy is at the very least using 'Indian-ness' to peddle his books and workshops.

[educatedindian]

Active dreaming is something known to dream researchers and sleep disorder specialists for over 50 years. Moss is not very knowledgable or original.

http://www.med.harvard.edu/publications/On_The_Brain/Volume05/Number3/Sleep.html
"In the 1950's, it was discovered that sleep consists of fluctuations between a state in which the brain shows slowing of its activity, and a very active state in which the electrical responses of the cerebral cortex are difficult to distinguish from waking...Paradoxical sleep is also accompanied by rapid eye movements (and therefore may be called REM sleep), and usually by active dreaming; the individual may experience fluctuations in heart rate and rhythm that make this the time of night when the largest number of heart attacks and strokes occur."

So active dreaming doesn't sound at all like something anyone responsible would encourage people to do.

I don't know if the Mohawk traditions practiced it, but I did not find a single Mohawk Moss ever named as endorsing him. Probably if they ever did practice it, only the most responsible healers would use it under very controlled and dire circumstances.

I agree with Barnaby that the CIA connection is unlikely. The closest to Nuage he ever got to was his Moonie ties, and that's pretty much explained by their long ties to the Korean CIA and a long list of people on the political right.

Moss the Nuage exploiter mixes in plenty with what he claims is Mohawk.
http://www.mossdreams.com/dreamarcheology.htm
"Dreaming Like an Egyptian
Dream Travel, Soul Remembering and Transformation
In the hieroglyphs of Egypt, a dream is both a place and an awakening. The ancient Egyptians developed an advanced practice of conscious dream travel. Trained dreamers operated as seers, remote viewers and telepaths. They practiced shapeshifting, crossing time and space in the dreambodies of birds and animals.
Through dream travel, ancient Egypt's "frequent flyers??? explored the roads of the afterlife and the multidimensional universe. It was understood that true initiation and transformation takes place in a deeper reality  accessible through the dream journey beyond the body. The dream teachers of ancient Egypt knew that the dream journey may take the traveler to the stars – specifically to Sirius, the "moist land??? believed by Egyptian initiates to be the source of higher consciousness, the destination of advanced souls after death, and the home of higher beings who take a close  interest in Earth matters.
In this exciting and challenging weekend of dream travel, shared dreaming and soul remembering, we will enter the Magic Library of the Egyptian dream-priests and embark on a series of journeys into the deeper reality through Egyptian gates: the Falcon Gate of the shapeshifters, the Uraeus Gate of the seers and psychonauts, the Anubis Gate to the Otherworld, the Stargate to higher intelligence and celestial life. We'll practice Isis Rebirthing, rising from the coffin of our old lives, gathering and healing the wounded parts of our selves, awakening our creative center under the shining wings of the God/Goddess to deliver new life and beauty into our world.
 
The Underground Railroad of Dreams
Escaping slaves followed their dreams to freedom on the Underground Railroad. Harriet Tubman, who personally conducted 300 slaves to freedom, was guided by specific dreams to safe houses, river crossings and other locales she had never previously visited."

A lot of what he passes off as NDN are the same things any sleep specialist could tell you:
http://www.mossdreams.com/introprogs.htm
"In this exciting, high-energy program you'll learn:
--How to improve your dream recall
--How to seek healing and guidance through dream incubation
--How to build creativity and intuition through dream journaling   
--The Lightning Dreamwork technique –
--The Dream Reentry technique"

A lot of this it typical Nuage lack of understanding.
"Robert's life was profoundly changed when he moved to the Northeast woodlands and started dreaming of the Bear (and the red-tailed hawk).  In this powerful workshop, we'll learn how we can derive energy, healing and spiritual direction by developing relationships with the animal guardians and making conscious dream journeys into their realm.  We hay discover that some of these connections are "totemic" in the sense that we may have a lifelong relationship with a certain animal.  We may also find that we are involved in a shifting web of relationships with many other animal helpers.  A Shaman may work with a dozen or more animal guardians.  We'll explore:
--How to find and work with animal guardians
--Soul relationships with beloved pets
--Taking your power animal to the workplace, the doctor's office, the community, and your love life
--Working with animal guardians to protect your psychic space
--Animal guardians as allies in healing and recovery
--Using the animal guardians to scout out the possible future
--Shapeshifting for astral travel and energy working
--Healing meditations with the animal guardians
--The connection between animals and god-forms
--Chakra healing with the help of the animal powers"

Chakra? Wrong kind of Indian, just like all the terms like power animal are pure Nuage.
Soul relationships with beloved pets...? Would that include somebody's goldfish? Pet rock?
And in many traditions you keep who your spirit guide is secret.

Endorses a woman named Wanda Burch who claims to be doimg Appalachian Healing. That's one I haven't heard before, knockoffs of folk healing done by the poorest US rural whites.
http://www.wandaburch.com/index.php?ID=11&PHPSESSID=5a12e9a897f9921eb369b111ec35dad6

Moss's links show most of hwat he claims is NDN he learned from Nuage sources.
http://www.mossdreams.com/shamanism%20and%20native%20traditions.htm
"FOUNDATION FOR SHAMANIC STUDIES
Homesite for Michael Harner's organization...
THE BURYAT HOME PAGE
Contains a lively introduction to Mongolian/Siberian traditions of shamanic dreaming.
SHAMANSOUTH
An adventurous assemblage of shamanic lore and practitioners' methods from around the world.
SPIRITWATCH
Dream researcher Jayne Gackenbach's home pages contain fascinating information on her work among the Central Alberta Cree.
STORIES OF THE DREAMING
Beautiful collection of Aboriginal Dreamtime tales.
ASTRALNAUTS
A spirited band of astral explorers, with exciting projects for group dream travel to out-of-body and out-of-this-world locales.  UK-based, but with the spirited Philly dream explorer Jean Galliano as one of the moving spirits.
REVES, CONSCIENCE, EVEIL
For French-speakers, a cornucopia of theory and research on altered states of consciousness.
ITALIAN DREAMS SITE
Nicely archived clusters of dreams on various topics ("Pregnancy", "Cars") available in English and other languages.  It's a little startling to see X-rated banner ads from some site sponsors wafting across the screen, but that happens in dreams too...
DREAMWORK 2000
Dreamwork innovator Strephon Kaplan-Williams' new site, with information on his Dream Cards"

[Mo]

dreams are held important in our tradition as guides to what we should do in certain situations...not sure what this guy is talking about but many traditionalists believe one is obliged to do what they experience in a dream. and dreams are interpreted by others usually at  midwinter ceremony. not a do it yourself dream interpretation booklet.

[cleardreamer]

Hi Barnaby and Company:

I'm certain beyond any doubt that this is the same guy.

As mentioned in the SourceWatch listing I referenced, Moss co-authored The Spike with fellow journalist Arnaud de Borchgrave (with whom he had some differences, as he mentiones briefly in the RealAudio interviews I linked to) and also wrote something back in the 1970s called Chile's Marxist Experiment. He's written a slew of other political novels: Moscow Rules, Carnival of Spies, Death Beam, Mexico Way, and a few others.

He talks briefly about co-authoring with de Borchgrave in the RealAudio interviews I referenced, where he also briefly mentions his career as a professor of ancient history (he made some statement about having been the youngest professor ever at the university at age 21 - he'll seize any opportunity for bragging rights), which he also talks a bit about in his introduction in the audio tape series Dreamgates: A Journey Into Active Dreaming. If you listen to the RealAudio interviews, and check out the Dreamgates audio tapes, it's the same voice. I think he mentions his previous career as a journalist in his introduction to the tape series, and also about how he was allegedly guided by dreams - while still living in London -  to the place he currently lives in Troy, NY. He talks about how he was allegedly guided in dreams to quit writing "commerical pot boilers" as he calls them, and in the opening chapter of Conscious Dreaming, he talks about a dream of shopping for suit and having the suit turn into a animal skin coat with a label reading "shamanic" inside the garment.

In the RealAudio interviews, he mentions having been "a target for the KGB" because of his dealings in the former Soviet Union. I've overheard him in person on more than one occasion talking about having gone to Vietnam as a war correpondant (where he claims his life was saved on numerous occasions by messages he's received in dreams), and recently (during a workshop I went to on January 6th, which I talk about later in the post) overheard him bragging about having encountered "a beautiful woman" reading his novel, Death Beam. Something to really brag about  :-\

I'm kind of ashamed to admit that I have attended two of his workshops - well, actually 1 1/6 of his workshops (I'll explain this). I had serious doubts about going the first time because I had no experience with and was wary of the whole New Age workshop thing. I lived in the Sedona, AZ area for a few years, and so got broad exposure to all manner of New Age weirdoes and shameless profiteers. I wasn't initially convinced that Robert Moss was one of them, because there seemed to be something to the stuff he writes about in his non-fictional work on dreams.

I have had powerful dream experiences througout my life, and his dreamwork material had come to my attention in what seemed to be a timely manner. I had no previous exposure to writers on the subject of dreamwork, so this is part of where he got me. I have since read other books by authors who wrote about these things while he was still busy writing spy novels, and have seen where it looks like he's lifted almost every ounce of his material from elsewhere.

My experience the first time I went to see him was a mixed one. I met some good people and fortunately did not have to spend much money to check this out. My initial impression was that he was carrying around a lot of power. I felt it coming off him as he seemed to be probing my - at the risk of sounding like a fluff bunny myself - aura. He was probably trying to figure out how he could sucker me into the little empire he's building around himself.

He uses a frame drum in his workshops, and I had no previous experience working with the drum. The first night of the retreat, he drummed for the group. While he did this, I reached a point where I seemed to move beyond experiencing images and into a sort of void space. My body began shaking and convulsing and moving around involuntarily, and my eyes were vibrating in their sockets. In trying to come back into my body from this experience, I fell over in my chair from the convulsive nature of what was going on. I had never experienced anything like this and nobody else in the circle seemed to notice what had just happened for me.

Later in the retreat, Robert was introducing the concept of dream re-entry to the group. I volunteered to play front and center in demonstrating this, partly because I didn't believe it was something that could be done, so I really didn't think anything would come of it. I had read enough of his work before going to this retreat, and a lot of his alleged personal experiences that he talks about - especially with dream re-entry - always struck me as being quite lofty and too fantastical to be true. After all, he is a novelist, and novelists make a career of embelleshing the truth and/or lying for fun and profit.

One thing he did that set my BS-o-meter off was when I was sharing the dream experience I was volunteering to re-enter. He made a point to tell me (and the group) that a symbol from my dream which held particular significance for me in fact meant nothing at all (how could it mean nothing at all? - it was everywhere in my dream!). This is in direct conflict with his repeated statements that the dreamer is the final authority on their own dream, and that nobody can tell the dreamer what their dream means. So, he contradicts himself quite openly. Maybe he thinks its okay to tell someone what their dream means or doesn't mean if he's the one doing it.

I won't go into great detail about the experience that followed, because it's probably outside the scope of this forum. I can share more about it later if it applies. In short, there was a repeat of the convulsive stuff - this time far more intensified. My breathing became ragged, and I eventually had the sense of moving beyond the dreamlike imagery. I actively entered what I have come to understand as an induced, altered state of consciousness. It had quite and effect on me, and on the group itself. When I had come back from the experience, I noticed that some people were in tears and some people were just plain scared. I was a bit of both.

Robert himself seemed uncomfortable (though trying hard not to appear this way) with what had taken place, and he offered me little in the way of aftercare in terms of the experience. I could sense that he did not feel he was being payed enough to work with someone in this way (or for presenting at this center in the first place), so I was essentially blown off after 15 precious minutes of his time (along with a that of a woman he's been working with for a number of years and who has completed his "dream teacher training") in consultation and left to care for myself in the wake of the experience. The most advice I got was to "find a shamanic counselor in my area", something for which I have neither money nor inclination. I was disoriented for days afterward and left to figure things out for myself.

I e-mailed Robert twice within a couple of months of the retreat to follow up and get some feedback, but I never received a response to either of these messages, so I let it go for some time. I did note his lack of response, and it didn't sit well with me at all. What does a few moments spent in responding to an e-mail messge really cost?

I became interested in working with a dream circle in my area. I wanted to share the handout I had received at the retreat outlining his basic approach to sharing a dream and getting feedback in about 10 minutes' time. Since the material is copyrighted, I knew I would have to ask permission and I figured it would be a good test to see if he would respond to a message from me this time. I figured that if I did receive a response, it would be quite telling, since it involved his precious copyrighted material. I'll be darned if he didn't respond in the negative ("sorry, that is only for people who come to my workshops") within a matter of hours to my request for permission to share the simple document, whose contents can be found and printed right from his website.

I also witnessed him imposing an what struck me as an inordinate amount of will when another woman in the circle was enacting a bit of "dream theater" using one of her own experiences. This was a person who had already been doing her own dreamwork quite well for the last 20 years. Robert was quite adamant as to how she could or could not choose to play out the dream experience she wanted to share with the group, telling her she could not do things the way in which she felt was necessary, that she had to do it his way. I also noted that in talking with others in the circle during breaks, that there were some who didn't seem to be buying his particular song and dance, and I held on to this knowledge for later reference.

Because I feel that what I experienced at this retreat was quite real and valid for me, and that he was merely facilitating the event, I vascillated for quite a long time as to whether this person was a positive or negative influence in my life (something else I recognized as having come up quite clearly in a dream I had prior to finding any of his material or even learning of his existance) and whether he was for real or not. Since he had become rather cold and unresponsive towards me, I was reaching a point where I didn't believe in him any more the way I used to. I got rid of all his books that I had accumulated on my shelves (mostly the older dreamwork stuff - I never liked any of his most recent stuff, which struck me as 10 tons of crap). But I wasn't entirely free of his influence yet.

Since I knew I needed to make a decision one way or the other so I could quit wasting my energy on trying to figure him out, I signed up for a one day workshop in Seattle that took place on January 6th (this last Saturday). I wanted to watch him action again (this time more closely), and also see what his reaction to me would be if I were to suddenly show up at one of his workshops again. I knew he wasn't likely to be happy to see me...

Robert acted the part of being all sweetness and light when he first saw me walk in, with a forced smile and a sugar-coated "nice to see you again". I sensed that this was not really how he felt, and this was confirmed once my husband had left the room (hubby was not signed up, just dropping me off). I noted the absense of any real power coming from him this time - this time he was just another guy, nothing real special. His demeanor towards me changed 180 degrees once hubby was gone, especially when I got out some fruit to eat, as I had just been in the car for the last 3 1/2 hours getting there and I was starving. The workshop had not yet begun, and people were still just arriving. His tone got very nasty when said to me "you know there's no eating in MY circle" (the possessive nature of how he regarded people gathering to participate in one of these workshops was another red flag for me - I strongly believe a circle belongs equally to all who compose it).

I told him I was not aware of this, as he had never said anything about it before. Besides, I had only seen the guy during the one retreat, and that was almost two years ago. I have never seen someone look at me with such abject hatred in their eyes. He seemed to have a quality around him of sucking in all the light immediately surrounding him (there were lamps in the ceiling all over the room, which was well lit) - like a black hole. I also noticed this quality surrounding the woman I had met previously during the retreat who has been working with him for a number of years in his "dream teacher training". My first impression when I saw her was how horrible she looked. Though I hadn't particularly liked her, I had remembered her as being much more vibrant and healthy when I saw her at the retreat almost two years ago. This time she was dull and seemed lifeless and colorless; she literally looked vamped. Another red flag.

I was beginning to get the confirmation of what I had begun to suspect, that this guy is really just in it for the ego gratification, the illusion of power, and the money, and anyone who won't allow themselves to be manipulated by him to meet those ends is undesirable. But this wasn't the end of it...yet.

During the first hour of the workshop, he began putting on the show I had become familiar with during the retreat I attended. This time, being more observant that I had been last time, I noticed how he uses his voice to raise and stir up the energy of the group. This energy had a very hollow, shallow quality to it. Once the circle was "opened", we were all seated and he got out the drum and drummed for the group. I started shaking and such, the way I did last time, though I was more in control this time because I am more familiar with how this works for me. It's how it still works when I do it on my own. It's nothing new anymore.

His new trainee came over and invited herself into my physical space - something I don't care for in other people - and began rubbing my back and trying to coach me through what she obviously didn't understand herself. For all her claims of being an "energy worker" (which isn't saying much in my eyes, because everything on this planet works with energy, whether conscious of it or not), she appeared not to have a clue what I was doing. I wanted to tell her to get the hell off me, but I didn't want to make a big scene, so I didn't say anything. After Robert finished drumming he went around the circle and had everyone briefly mention what images had come up for them during the drumming. He then called for a short break, calling over the new trainee to come speak with him.

At the break, I left the room and I continued eating the fruit I had earlier been forbidden from consuming in Robert's presence. He had his new trainee - the one who invaded my space - come to me and tell me to leave. I was struck by the fact that Robert couldn't face me himself to deliver something of this nature. He was sending the minions to do his dirty work.

The excuse she gave was that I was "too advanced" for this workshop, that this was "for beginners" and that I was "scaring people". I was told I should come to something more advanced. One thing she didn't understand is that Robert's "advanced" workshops are "by invitation only", and that I had never been extended an invitation to any of these. I had asked Robert in the [distant] past about the teacher training, but he said I needed to attend two of his "depth" workshops first, and that the five-day retreat which I had attended didn't count as one of these. He intimated that he felt I was "not appropriate" for this kind of "training".  I noted that there had been mention earlier in the day of an "advanced" ("by invitation only") workshop taking place the next day at the same location, and I noticed that though being told to come to "something more advanced" I was not invited. It was clear they just wanted to be rid of me. So, I called my husband while I gathered up my things and told him to come and get me.

To their credit, I was given back the money order I had sent in to register for the workshop, though it isn't saying much about them in my eyes, because it was the only honest thing to do from a business standpoint. I am left with the overall impression that this guy is a phony who tries to hide the fact as cleverly as possible behind shreds of truth. He may have the tiniest bit of real power which he primarily derives from other people, overinflates and utterly abuses to serve his own ego. I think the people that he "trains" are extremely gullible, married, middle-aged women with money to burn.

I've learned my lesson, but I feel a sense of needing to warn others not to give this guy money. Doing so only eggs on someone who is - in my experience - insincere, vampiric, unscrupulous and who possibly went into this "business" to detract attention from his questionable political dealings earlier in his life.

I could be wrong, but my experiences with this person have been less than pleasant overall, and I tend to trust what I experience directly above anything else.

~CD

[cleardreamer]

I noticed the mention of Wanda Burch. I haven't met her personally, but she is a personal friend of Robert Moss and his family. He mentions this in his audio cassette series. I think they've known each other for a long time. He wrote the foreward for her book She Who Dreams. I took at peek at this book once when visiting a local bookstore, and it looked like fuzzy junk to me, so I didn't bother. I didn't know she was teaching workshops now, too. I suspect from recognizing the general tone and content of the description on her website and suggestions for things to bring to these workshops that she, too, has been "trained" by Moss to go forth and charge $$ for this sort of thing.

Here's some fluffy stuff about his involvement with Burch from a site called Planet Lightworker:
http://www.planetlightworker.com/articles/timothygreen/article3.htm

And his Association for the Study of Dreams member page:
http://dreamtalk.hypermart.net/member/files/robert_moss.html

Here is a bibliography for Moss that seems relatively all inclusive as far as his mainstream stuff from the 1980s to present:
http://isbn.nu/aisbn/moss%20robert/
(I don't think he wrote "Helping the Stork", however, but I'm not sure).

Here is an article by Moss from earlier in his career while serving as editor of the UK's Foreign Report: http://www.rhodesia.nl/moss1.htm

And something later (though not the article itself - just a listing for it in a publication), where he references "Native American 'Shamans'":
http://www.bu.edu/dublinseminar/BookContents/WondersContents.html

I've also found a few things in my library's periodical archives which I am not allowed to post links to publically (it's part of the AUP for having access to the service through the library, which has to purchase a subscription to the archive), but am willing to share privately (this is allowed - can e-mail links or copies of stuff, if interested). It's all very political and kind of boring, but it gives an idea of where this guy came from in the first place. Historically, he spent a lot more time ranting and raving about communism and the supposed Sovietization of the UK than he did talking about dreams. It was a passionate pasttime for him back in 1970s. Maybe he had nightmares about Marx and Lenin and was using the media to hash it all out. I suspect underneath it all, he's not changed a whole lot. He sure is squarely in the capitalist camp, no question about that.

All in all, the guy is really an academic at heart. I was appalled when a woman approached me after the retreat I mentioned and twittered "oh, he's self-educated". Um, I don't think so. Self-educated people don't have MAs. Moss has an MA, I'd guess in ancient history since that's what he was teaching at Australian National University. An MA is college degree, therefore, Moss is college educated, not self-educated. Besides, self-educated people don't generally teach at universities.

~CD

P.S. - Did I mention Moss did an interview on the Coast to Coast (Art Bell) show in late 2005? How much more New Age can one get? http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guests/1080.html

[educatedindian]

I agree with you that he does seem to have a bit of knowledge but greatly exagerrates for ego and especially profit. His knowledge seems to be all from basic sleep studies, psychology, maybe a bit of hypnosis. The claims of Mohawk teachers are just window dressing, to sell it to more people. It's long been known that you can send someone into a trance like state from long periods or certain styles of drumming.

I don't know enough about pschology to know what to recommend to you if you still have ill effects from what he did. There is a yahoo group, Freedom of Mind, that is for cult survivors and people interested in cult studies. While what he does is not exactly a cult, there do seem to be some cultlike tactics he practices. There are many psychologists and therapists at the FOM group who might be able to recommend somebody to help you.

You shouldn't be ashamed of having been taken in by him. Spiritual exploiters are very good at what they do, and we appreciate you being willing to talk about your experience.

If this is the same Moss as the right wing anti Communist writer, it would not be the first time we've seen that kind of overlap. Harley Reagan claimed to be a CIA hit man. I remember another exploiter who also wrote Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, claiming his job was to sabotage economies.

[cleardreamer]

I agree about the trance state and the drumming. I didn't want to linger on that too much at the risk of sounding like a New Age nutter myself. I suppose I just didn't know how easy it was for me to go there. I've made a point over the last couple of years to do some reading on this that doesn't come from the New Age sector. I know from reading a bit on how this has historically worked among indigenous cultures throughout the world that what happened for me is not atypical of how this works.

I believe that although he is definitely an exploiter that I learned some very useful things from coming into contact with him. First of these is having been put into contact with and learning how to work with a trance state on my own. I have found this an immensely powerful and useful tool that I'm certain has nothing to do with Moss himself. He didn't do this to me, he just helped open the door to something I didn't know I was capable of working with. I think this is the essence of why he has a problem with me.

The only ill effects I feel from all of this right now are those that stem from having my suspicions confirmed that there was something wrong with the way this person conducts himself. I'll admit the guy got a lot of thought-energy from me over the last couple of years, and it explains why I've had so many days where I was just so exhausted that all I could do was sleep. Now that I've effectively cut the cord, I'm finding that my energy level is increasing and my mind just feels clearer.

The other thing I learned from this that I'll carry with me forever is that my BS-o-meter is now much more finely tuned than before. Now in addition to the obvious fakes (and we all know these when we see them), I'll be able to see more clearly the ones who may be less obvious. Instead of smelling a fake a mile away, now I'll be able to smell one 2 or 3 miles away  :)

Right now I'm mostly processing all the garbage that comes from getting confirmation that I was taken in for a time by someone who is not for real. I consider myself fortunate that I hadn't invested many many years and lots of money in this guy the way others do. Personally, I'm not real big on the psychotherapy thing (and I haven't insurance or money to pay for the services of someone who does this), and I don't really feel that this guy got to me enough to justify going to see a therapist. I'm pretty sure I have the tools to work this out on my own. I have the support of a very loving and understanding mate at home, and I find his support is immensely empowering.

I appreciate having found a place where this sort of thing is taken seriously. I've found over the years in my own studies that the more I learn, the less I care for the New Age fluff bunny syndrome that is so prevalent in the quest for true spirituality. I now have first hand experience of how harmful and damaging this sort of thing can be. I hope others can learn from my experience, too.

~CD

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Historically, he spent a lot more time ranting and raving about communism and the supposed Sovietization of the UK than he did talking about dreams. It was a passionate pasttime for him back in 1970s.

Thanks for clarifying that Moss the CIA mouthpiece is the same as Moss the "adopted Mohawk". Without minimising the harm he's doing to Indian communities and the non-Indians who fall for his current line of bull, at least he's not cheerleading for Latin American dictators any more. I'm sure he was passionate about that but it wasn't a pastime, it was a well-paid career (search page for "Moss, Robert"). I'm not endorsing the rest of the contents of that site: its resume of Moss' political career is culled from a reputable source, the excellent Lobster magazine.

Maybe he had nightmares about Marx and Lenin and was using the media to hash it all out.

He should have nightmares. If there is any justice the disappeared will rise up to accuse him every time he shuts his eyes.

[cleardreamer]

Agreed, Barnaby, he was very well paid. Which is why he really doesn't need to charge so much for the workshops he puts on. If he was truly "speaking and acting from the heart" (a pretty little line he uses in his tape cassette series), he would behave as if doing so, which he doesn't.

I had seen Steve Hasan's site previously, freedomofmind.com, which educatedindian suggested to me, but I hadn't examined its contents closely. I looked through some of what he cites as warning signs of a potentially dangerous situation, and I certainly see some overlap between what he says and how Moss conducts his circles. I have a copy of one of Hasan's books on order from my local library.

[cleardreamer]

And not that I needed to drive the point home any further, but I came across this as well. Ties it together in his short bio at the bottom of the page:

http://www.improverse.com/ed-articles/robert_moss_2001_dec_dreams_of_terror.htm