NAFPS Forum

General => Frauds => Topic started by: educatedindian on April 11, 2006, 03:52:17 pm

Title: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: educatedindian on April 11, 2006, 03:52:17 pm
THis group hosts off the same site as the "horse ceremony" people. Some things about them jump right out: An alleged band of people with distant Cherokee ancestry led by a Micmaq talking aobut the Anishnaabe Seven Fires prophecy.

http://www.soquilicenter.org/lindex.htm
"The Soquili Center is a place where people seeking a deeper and more whole Spiritual Path can come and participate in our Ceremonies and Ways...Our Goal is to help Others find the Spiritual Path which suits their Feet by sharing with them our Knowledge of the Earth and Great Mystery....
   We are told by Prophesy of a Time to come when, because of a sickness in the Earth, that Great Change would take place in the Earth that would cause much sickness and death, and there would be a Change in the Sky which would lead to natural disasters such as had never been witnessed before. The cause of these things would be the failure of most men to understand that we must Live and Act within the boundaries of Natural Law, and that we would forget our own Essences as Spiritual Beings and all Understandings of the meaning of it. We are told to Remember the Teachings of Great Mystery, the Prophesies and Visions of our Ancestors that were passed down, and to Keep our Spiritual Ways close to us, because the Time to Share these Ways with the Unega would come, and, if Shared freely and acted upon by the Unega and us, the Changes would not have to occur. The Soquili Center is one of the Places where that Sharing has been, and will continue to be, done. These are a part of the Teaching of the Prophecy of the 4th Shaking
The Care-taker
   The Care-taker of the Soquili Center, and the Keeper of most of the Ceremony and Teaching done here is Ed Littlefox.  Ed, who's full Native name is Tsutlasdi Anida Ada, and means "Small Fox, One of a Litter", is the last, known, inductee and Member of the Ani Nvqisi Sakoniga, or "Blue Star Society"; the oldest known Medicine Society of the Eastern Tribes. Ed, who's early life is documented is the "Growing Up Native" section of this website, was raised by his Traditional Grandparents. Ed's Grandfather, to whom he was apprenticed in the Spiritual Ways and Medicines for 12 years, was the Keeper of the Traditions of the Twisted-Hair Clan of the Oklahoma Cherokee. Ed is a member, by matrilineal birthright of the Wild Potato Clan, and a member-by-honor of the Twisted-Hair Clan, as he carries the Traditions of each. By the age of 15, Ed had completed the training and instruction necessary to meet the protocols to conduct the Ceremonies and pass the teachings he does at the Center and elsewhere, and was inducted into the Blue Star Society at that time.
The Physical Center
The Soquili Center is located on 200 acres of Farmland in Northern Davidson County, North Carolina. The Land is the Site of an Ancient Temple Mound Complex, the major feature of which is an Eagle Effigy Mound with a 'wingspan' of more than 2700 feet. The Ceremonial Grounds of the Center is located near the southern base of the Central Temple Mound."
"Soquili Center, ES is proud to Welcome Michael B. RunningWolf as a Trustee and Member of the permanent resident Staff of the Soquili Center Sanctuary.
RuningWolf is a M'ikmaq Algonquin from the Northeastern Woodlands who was raised on both sides of the Maine/Canadian border. The Stories he tells are the legends his People have orally passed down to each generation. He is co-author and illustrator of the Book, On the Trail of Elder Brother, which is internationally published in three languages, English, French, and German; published by Persea Books, New York, ISBN:0-89255-246-4.
  Found in the Historical Archives at Halifax, Nova Scotia, his ancestry can be traced as far back as 1655 through the colonial documents of both the French and English chroniclers. He is descended from the hereditary Grand and Band Chiefs of the M'ikmaq through the Perminuit, Noel, and Clememt bloodlines....Michael RunningWolf is a M'tou'lin, a Ceremonial and Spiritual Leader, or, "medicine man" -(a word we don't necessarily like, since we have our own, more descriptive and specific terms). Michael was brought up in the Traditions of his People--the "Old Ways", and trained in the Wabanaki traditions and ceremonies of the Medicine Ways at a young age by Senobi and Grandmother Madasin, (Penobscot), of Indian Island, Maine, where he worked also on the manuscripts and illustrations for On the Trail of Elder Brother....Michael officiates and co-officiates Ceremony, Teaches our workshops and retreats"
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: educatedindian on April 11, 2006, 04:28:54 pm
The ones in charge, Ed Littlefox.
http://einstein.phys.uwm.edu/view_profile.php?userid=61540
"My name is Ed Littlefox,(really), and I am a Cherokee/Saponi Indian from, and living in, North Carolina, USA. I am 58 years old. I make my living raising Horses and doing Horse Clinics, and I own and operate Soquili Equine Services, LLC. I consider myself a "shade tree quantum mechanic". I have run SETI data for about 3 years, and decided to give Einstein@Home a try, due to the Gravity of the situation. Interestingly, the new version of the UFT is no stranger to my Culture.We have always based everything on Relationship and Resonance--and the UFT is about Resonance-----Ray."

http://www.soquilicenter.org/ses.htm
"Returning to Right Relationships is a Special Clinic for Professional and Paraprofessional Therapists and Councilors, Professional Equine Specialists, and Educators involved in the fields of Equine Assisted Psychotherapeutics or Equine Assisted Learning. This Clinic not only delves deeply into Equus on a subtle level, but also introduces an entirely new Modality for use in the field. The Modal uses tools directly derived from Native American Culture which have been used by American Indian Medicine People for counseling and problem solving for thousands of years. Coupled with the Natural reactive and mirroring abilities of the Horse, this new Modal becomes a powerful and useful Tool for both Therapeutics and EAL applications."

http://www.metaphysicalcenterofnewjersey.org/PipeCeremony.html
"The Pipe Ceremony
by Ed Littlefox
In my home, usually on the third Saturday of each month, my family and I host an Open Door Pipe Ceremony for all who wish to come and take part. Our ritual is a special one, unique as pipes go, and it is very, very ancient. My teachings stem from my Southeastern Woodland Culture (matrilineal) heritage (on my mother’s side), which is Iriquois, and not Lakota. Our pipe has its origin deep in a 3500 year old legend of creation. The “secret??? to our great reverence for birds, especially birds of prey, and perhaps the key to humanity’s fascination with this particular animal lies in the legend.
It is our belief that humans were created by Spirit-Entities who manifested themselves as birds (and still do). These winged creatures acted on the authority of the Great Mystery, and were, themselves, created by the Great Mystery to help create the universe on an energy-to-matter basis. These winged creatures are the essence of Spirit-Energy. As such they need a “bed-plate??? of matter to continue the creation of a material plane. Humanity is that bed-plate. To take care of this new, material body, “Ego??? was invented along with consciousness. We are now separate from Spirit Nature (our True Nature) only because the Ego, with its will, rebels against the Spirit-Self.
Our Pipe Ritual is known as the “Eight-Breath Ceremony,??? and is dedicated to the world and to universal peace, which, we know, must first instill itself within individuals and then be manifest in the world."

A warning he wrote.
 http://www.geocities.com/internationalaboriginalministry/teachingspirituality.html

Michael Running Wolf
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892552484/104-8309590-0468746?v=glance&n=283155
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 14, 2006, 05:23:47 pm
http://www.geocities.com/internationalaboriginalministry/teachingspirituality.html

I copied this , below , from the above link , which is from something called International Aboriginal Ministries.

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"Things to Avoid

Avoid anyhing which reaks of Cult. Avoid criticism and contact with AIM National as it is the job of this organization to supress and oppress True Teachers and to turn the Public Eye AWAY from the True Issues facing Native American People and the Tribes. Understand, there are two AIMs --- AIM National and the Old Warriors. The Old Warriors are NOT "Autonamous AIM" --- as some would have you believe. If you look deeply enough, you will see that AIM National will support many of the False Teachers ---and it does NOT take a rocket scientist to figure out what is actually going on here.

Be aware of anyone who sells ceremony. Remember, I said Ceremony --- there is no charge to be exacted from anyone for Ceremony. Donations, given from the heart, are acceptable and should be considered as the people qualified to do these Ceremonies have to eat and they need to be supported. Education is a different matter, so be prepared to pay for it, the same as you would for college tuition or to buy a book or a tape. Don't expect "the Moon" for a pack of cigarettes, you won't get it.

The idea that all it takes is a Tobacco Offering to recieve Knowledge is a Myth, started by AIM National to facilitate the PREVENTION of the Teachings we must, by Prophesy, share --- by restricting the ability of True Medicine People to ? move about and support themselves. Traditionally, a Tobacco offering only initiated an action on the part of a Medicine Person to consider helping someone ---and any action would ensue only if the Medicine Person accepted the offering. That Tobacco would be used to load a Pipe for that person, and nothing else."


This was written by Ed Littlefox , who also seems to be the founder of the Soquili Center.

---------------
----------------

So , this has me wondering ??? ?

This whole statement that it is OK to charge for traditional "teachings" , and it is only some disruptive faction of AIM that says it is not , seems completely bizarre to me .

The way I have always heard it , from Elders who had no direct involvement with AIM , a gift of tobacco is the only expectation for Spiritual guidence , but , then , I know almost nothing , about Cherokee traditions .

Ed Littlefox says he is Cherokee , and the Soquili Band was formed for the purpose of finding and recognizing the lost birds of the Cherokee . So maybe the Cherokee have some different traditions around charging for traditional teachings ?

Are there some types of teachings , within the Cherokee traditions , where payment is expected ?

Or ,are these guys just creating new "traditional teachings" to suit themselves , claiming they are the original ?

So many Elders have said, very publicly , and in no uncertain terms , it is wrong to charge for ceremonies , ? but as not as much has been said , in public proclamations , about protecting and respecting traditional teachings.

The Soquili website says all the money raised through workshops and retreats goes into maintaing the Soquili Center , BUT , I would find it a bit creepy , if these people are changing the original teachings and traditions to fit their own agenda , and are even going so far as to claim that the original way things were done, never even existed . Or is this expectation of payment something acceptable within Cherokee traditions ?

Can anyone out there clarify this ?

I am also a bit puzzled about who exactly is behind the International Aboriginal Ministries .

The article by Ed Littlefox which claims it was traditional to charge for teachings before AIM changed the traditions , is found on this website, but I do not see anyone else , who is living , named as an organizer . Some of what this organization claims to be doing sounds like it could be good , but who are they ? ? If they are doing all this , it seems a bit odd there is no one named as a board of directors or something .


http://www.geocities.com/internationalaboriginalministry/projects.html

http://www.geocities.com/internationalaboriginalministry/renewal.html


I also see there is now a link on the Soquili home page discussing their being posted in the "needs investigation" section of NAFPS .

http://www.soquilicenter.org/NAFPS.htm

Sounds like they are not too happy about this .

Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: piya on April 14, 2006, 06:31:51 pm
Quite a sound off by Mr Littlefox..........................

States he is also a card carrying ndn, but there again.........

http://nativehistory.tripod.com/id8.html
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: JosephSWM on April 14, 2006, 09:13:20 pm
The selling of ceremony for the community is one thing (and is wrong) but the work of a medicine person doing 'work' for a private individual is another. Almost always, more than tobacco is offered. Whether that is money or some kind of barter is up to them. This is what I know and what I have been exposed to.

Joseph
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: educatedindian on April 14, 2006, 11:22:05 pm
We've seen this pattern happen more than a few times, with Kinney, with Hobgood, etc. We simply ask questions, and that person in question apparently monitors the internet looking to jump on and try to shut up any critics, often with ridiculous heavy handed legal threats with no basis. That's exactly what "Littlefox" seems to be doing.

So, since I'm sure he's monitoring the board, holding his breath to see if we fold from his threats or not, I'll save him the suspense and tell him the same thing I've told others:

NO, we will not stop talking about, looking into, or critiquing what you, your group, or anyone involved with you are doing. Not until we are satisified one way or the other.

NO, your flimsy threats of legal action will not have any effect at all. We know them to be baseless, and we also know they generally come from frauds who DO have something to hide and know they are doing wrong. We get empty legal threats all the time, and they have never stopped us yet.

Let me also answer him, point by point:

"(Note: this is a direst quote, misspelled words and all)"

If the best you can do is jump on my typos, you might want to learn how to spell "direct" first.

"Though I don't feel I owe you the slightest explanation for anything we do at Soquili Center,"

Yet you felt the need for a long note, posted on your site within a single day of us merely asking a question. That tells everyone you prowl the web looking to shut down any criticism of you.
 
"we have been in existence for over 10 years--funny that you just found us."

We've only been around for six years, and as possible frauds go, you're small potatos compared to the worser ones like H Reagan or Lynn Andrews. Nowhere have we said a thing about your business, only about your alleged band, which is not ten years old. None of our Cherokee members have heard of it before.

"My clinic and equine consulting business is, by the way, Soquili Equine Services, LLC. If you think there is something "fraudulent" about that"

Never said it was. Learn to read what we actually say, instead of making things up. All your paranoia does is get people wondering about your business when they had not before.

"I cannot for the life of me fathom how it is you determined that we do, teach, or deal in "horse ceremony".

Never said that. Once again, learn to read before jumping to false conclusions.
I said a website that does alleged horse ceremonies seems to also be hosting for you.

"no Traditional has a right to speak for Traditions he was not taught."

Once again, learn to read what we actually say.

"When we do ceremony here, it is Woodland Culture, either Southeastern or Northeastern M'ikqmaq (correct spelling)"

Oh brother. You argue against Pan Indianism (which we don't even believe in ourselves) and then turn right around and claim there's a generic "woodland culture" for the whole region?

"I have real problem"

You mean, besides with your own typos?

"with any Individual or Group that is pro-acculturation/anti-tradition and therefore supports the continued disenfranchisement of their own People."

Once again, learn to read.
Many members here are unenrolled.

"there are thousands of people, Indian People, who's ancestors were kidnapped by either the Church or the Government, or, in the Southeast, were victimized by Reconstruction's Carpet-Baggers into changing Races to keep from being killed."

Littlefox really doesn't know the most basic history, and that makes me more doutful than ever he should be teaching what he claims is NDN "woodlands" tradition.
That's not NDN tradition he's talking, that's Neo Confederate nonsense, the kind of false history invented by white supremacists or people who romanticize the bad "old South" and demonize "yankees". I doubt Littlefox is white supremacist, but he's certainly fallen for some of the lies of the Neo Confederates.

"let me say a word or two about Freedom of Speech on the internet,"

Appanrely it exists only for Littlefox, but not for anyone who'd criticize him.

"and Fraud. Fraud is a Criminal Offense. What that means is, that if you make accusations that are unfounded, or cast suspicion on others that adversely affects their Lives, Businesses, or Rights, then you, yourself, are guilty of a Crime"

Littlefox really needs to learn to read.
All we've done is put him under Research Needed, but his defensiveness really makes you wonder.

"and a Civil Rights violation."

He also needs to learn basic law.
If he's actually NDN (as he claims) then how could other NDNs criticizing him be a civil rights violation?

"My suggestion to you and yours at this point is to lay off before I hold you responsible for your words." I took the trouble of screen shooting your thread---just so you know that even the "investigator" can be investigated. You have nothing to gain here."

Your empty legal threats will not deter us. They only accomplish two things:
Amuse people who, unlike you, actually know the law.
And make many of us wonder just what you are doing that may not be right.

As I said before, at this point we're just wondering about your alleged band. Do you have the support of actual elders from the actual Cherokee bands? I'm guessing no, or you would've put that on display.

Mr. Littlefox, let me also invite you over here to explain further if you wish. Which you could've done before, after all.
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 15, 2006, 12:34:59 am
Joseph , I think I have seen the same thing you have , when it comes to a flexible expectation of some sort of payment when it comes to doctoring or personal assistance . ?

In the non Cherokee community , I have never seen any charge for Spiritual teachings even if it is "outsiders " being taught . But as I said , I know almost nothing about Cherokee traditions and I respect there may be some differences .

Are you saying that if a person is Cherokee , and has real Cherokee teachings , it would be OK , in the eyes of the Cherokee community , to expect some form of payment , for these teachings ?

Because AIM was mentioned in this article , as starting the objections to charging for teachings ,I am assuming these "teachings" have to do with Spiritual traditions and not how to care for horses ,or how a relationship with a horse can help with psychological healing .

I cannot imagine anyone would feel there is a problem charging for teaching people how to work with horses , and I have no questions about this part of this organization .

Sorry if this sounds a bit dense .... The many different ways of doing things can be confusing . I have heard so many times it is not OK to charge for traditional teachings .... ?

If charging for Spiritual / cultural teachings , is Ok in the Cherokee tradition , I would not want to be rude about this , if I someday cross paths some Cherokee people charging for Spiritual teachings . ? If my questions here have been rude , I apologize .
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: weheli on April 15, 2006, 04:58:54 pm
There is no band of soquili Band of Cherokee. Just another exploiter trying to mack a buck once again Cherokee this or that.

I am Cherokee and agree with Joesph. The medicine man, never asks for anything but tradition is the giving of tobacco and out of respect, which he has earned in all the traditional ways, one gives from his heart other gifts. He NEVER asks for anything.

No ceromonies are NEVER sold either!! So if you are REALLY Cherokee and practicing true traditions, what you are doing is wrong, if you are Cherokee you would know this. How about telling us your tribal enrollment #?? Is it Eastern, Western Cherokee or other ndn tribes also?
                                                                Wado  Weheli
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: educatedindian on April 15, 2006, 07:46:23 pm
You're right, there doesn't even seem to be any "band". It's basically him, one other guy, and a sec'y. They refer to themselves as an ecclesiastical society and weren't even around until February of this year, according to their own Documentation.
http://www.soquilicenter.org/cdoc.htm
"We the Undersigned...establish a Religious Society...on this the 9 day of Feb, 2006
Edwin L Copeland, DD, Founding Elder
Deorah T Natola, Acting Sec'y
Michael B Runningwolf, DD, Founding Elder"

I don't know if I'd say Edwin Copeland ("Ed Littlefox") is an exploiter. He claims no ceremonies are being sold, but defends overandover selling teachings. Part of the problem is his Pan Indianism. For a supposed teacher of lost Cherokees, he's mostly selling Lakota beliefs.

"This reflection of the Wheel has elements of the Horse Dance Vision, given to the Lakota Holy Man, Black-Elk. Briefly, the Horse Dance Vision was of the Future, when 4 Horses of each of the Color-symbols of the Lakota Medicine Wheel, (Yellow, Red, Black, and White) came out of the 4 Great Directions and Danced together beneath The Sacred Tree (of the Sun Dance). the one I will use as an example is the most commonly seen representation of the Lakota Wheel....The North Point of the Wheel is White, and the color stands for Wisdom and Purity, as well as Winter, the White Man, the White Buffalo Calf Woman....The West Point is Black, and represents....The Thunder-Beings, whether they are the Wakinyan of the Lakota, or the Tililoqui (Thunderors) of my own People."
"In the Center of the Wheel is Great Mystery; Wakan Tanka and Tunkashila to the Lakota, and Adanvdo to the Cherokee."

And this gets pretty contradictory.
 "The Sweat Lodge is our oldest Ceremony. Oral Tradition has it that it stems from an act done by First Mother for one of her Sons, (First Twins) who had died. In her Prayers, Great Mystery took pity on her sorrow, and Gave her the Sweat Lodge Ceremony, and told her that if she did the Ceremony, her Son's life would be restored. You will hear this said when asking about the Lodge Ceremony; someone will tell you that it "brings Life".
 ?  ?  In recent years, Lodges have sprung up all over the country like mushrooms after a Spring Rain. The Ceremony is the most popular among non-Indian People as an "Indian thing to do", and has created a group of people Native insiders refer to as Ceremony Freaks and Crystal Twinkies. At the point of this writing, a great controversy has risen out of this fact regards the abuse of these ceremonies. I agree with the Native side of this question, but only to an extent....I want to demark a difference. There are also a few of us who do Workshops for others, and we charge fees for that. There is a difference between Ceremonial Duties and Education. Workshops are for Education and the difference is on of ? Apples and Oranges. Expect to pay for an Education, but not for Ceremony.
About the Lodge....
      My own People, the Cherokee, have a form of Lodge known as Asi, and it is used strictly to facilitate Healing and for no other purpose. Around the year 1979, the Inipi Rite was Given to my People by Lakota Holy Man, Frank Fools-Crow, so that we would have a Purification Lodge. That's OK, but we already had a Way of Purification known as Going-to-Water; its just a little different. For myself in my own Path, I learned the Way of the Inipi Rite from Lakota Medicine Man, Henry Crow-Dog"
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: plz on April 15, 2006, 08:17:52 pm
Just finished reading through his 'Growing up Native' stuff from which you quoted, Al.  I didn't see very much in the way of his growing up.  But more in line with the same kind of 'teaching' that the other Ed (McGaa) does/says etc.  Even to refering to Black Elks vision and Fools Crow.  It's almost like he read McGaa's book/s, tossed in some of his own ideas and poof....... a teaching of ndn spriiruality.

Or, I could be behind by two and someone else started this same line of thought and the two Eds just mimicked the thoughts.

pattyz
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Moma_porcupine on April 16, 2006, 01:45:09 am
Weheli , thanks for helping me understand what Joseph was saying . Sorry to be so easily confused .

What you and Joseph said is echoed by an article by Richard Allan ? , of the Cherokee Nation , which is posted on ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  Go-hi-yu-hi

http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/art00001.htm

I was really feeling disturbed , that an Aboriginal Ministry that would make comments like ;
----------------
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"Education is a different matter, so be prepared to pay for it, the same as you would for college tuition { ....}"

and

"The idea that all it takes is a Tobacco Offering to recieve Knowledge is a Myth, started by AIM National [....]"
--------------------------
------------------------
It is so hard to educate people on how to recognize and avoid both the exploiters and people who are simply confused , or delusional .The last thing that is needed is some supposed Aboriginal Ministry running around saying people should expect to pay for teachings ? .

If these people really were who they say they are , ( which at this point seems questionable ) ? a lot of their goals sound like good things , but , I believe the end tends to reflect the means . It seems kind of contradictory, ? to, ? on one hand say you want to reunite people with their culture , when on the other hand you are changing one of the most basic teachings of respect , found in most Native cultures , and , even claiming these cultural Spiritual teachings never existed .

While I was open to the possibility Cherokee people had different ways of doing things , the teaching that there is no charge for teachings , just donations from the heart , is found in many / most /or all ? Native traditions and this teaching is definently ? not a myth started by AIM .

Starting or spreading a rumour like that , is at best , really irresponsible . ?
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: littleredbear on April 16, 2006, 03:52:41 am
I would like to add to this posting I have known Littlefox and Runningwolf for over 5 years now.  They both have been 2 of many Elders from different nations that have helped me on my journey along the path.  Not once have I been asked for anything from them for what they have taught me about living my life in a good and spiritual way.  As a matter of fact they helped finance a trip for me to come to NC to been taught by them, where they gave me a place to sleep and fed me with their food for free.   In return, and I will add that I have never been asked by either of them, I have done what I can to repay them for their help, now by saying repay I am not speaking of money.  Payment can be  so simple as keeping that certain Elder in your daily prayers.  I feel that in todays world that whenever a person sees the word "payment" money is the first thing that crosses their mind.  Now I am in complete agreement with all involved if a "medicince man" comes to me and says it will cost me $200.00 to learn to pour an Asi lodge then something is seriously wrong and to be honest I would not want to enter that lodge with that person because someone is going to get hurt emotionally and physically.  If the student feels in his heart to pass money to an Elder then great or give the Elder a box of canned goods, any thing to show your appreciation for them helping you but a pack of tabacco is not enough.  Look back to the trational ways of the past who cared for the Elders of a camp it was the younger generation,  they would  bring food, clothing, ect,  to them as their payment for the knowledge that was passed to them from the Elder.  
I am not hear to argue with any of the brothers and sisters who post here I just wanted to add my opinion to what I fear may be a great misunderstanding by the use of the word Payment.  
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: snorks on April 16, 2006, 06:33:32 pm
I don't think that payment for a ceremony or teaching is the problem.  

I think the problem lies in that this particular individual is claiming something that he does to be of a particular tradition.  Because it is Indian, it is special.  Therefore there is a premium placed on his stone casting.  Which means he can charge a fee to non-Indians who think that this particular stone casting is traditional.

The arugment lies in that the folks on this board who are Cherokee say that his stone casting in not in their traditions.  Therefore when he does it, he cannot say it is.  But if it is ordinary stone casting or divination, then it is not as worth as much as an 'Indian' one.  It cannot be marketed as well.

For example, I teach people about animals and folklore.  Since it is not specific to the going rage of New Agers (finding your guides, etc), it is not as high in demand.  My marketing efforts on my workshops have to be more creative and tailored to each customer group.  

It would be much easier for me to say I teach Animal Totems and their place on the Indian Medicine Wheel.  That way I would have an automatic group to sell to and could charge premium prices.  I wouldn't have to spend so much time trying to research and reach customers.

Actually, you can do divination with stones and get good readings.  It just not Indian.
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Four_Winds on April 16, 2006, 06:58:12 pm
I joined this forum due to my interest in this topic and involvment with the subject. I have known Ed Littlefox for over 10 years, and know members of his family, close friends, aquaintences, and associates. He has taught me (and others)  a LOT about Cherokee and other Native ways and cultures.  I have witnessed healings and medicine work he has done, participated in ceremonies, and worked with him as a partner in things of both physical and spiritual nature. I have personal information, referances, and experience that leaves no doubt as to who and what he is, and that is "the Real Thing".
I have known Michael Runningwolf for over 5 years, not as closely as Littlefox, but have had thorogh discusions, particpated in ceremony, and found more than enough referance material to verify him .
What I can tell you about the Soquili Center is that it has been in existance for several years, but just recently formalized, in part as a measure to help preserve a sacred site it is involved with.

It seems to me that altho your intentions are good, this discussion has evolved into a nit-picking battle and lack of understanding of the most important points thru lack of comprehension or effective communications.
In the opening post, Mr. Carroll quoted both Littlefox's and Runningwolf's heritage and credentials, which clarifies that this is not  " An alleged band of people with distant Cherokee ancestry led by a Micmaq talking aobut the Anishnaabe Seven Fires prophecy."
Other quotes about working with and teaching about horses does not make anyone "horse ceremony people".
This approach is what antagonized Littlefox and precipitated his response.

Regarding the controversy over "payment" for teaching or healing....
Consider that an exchange of value in some form has been the traditional way in order for the People to support their teachers and healers. It may be by mutual understanding or stated as a price, has been food, furs, hides, shells, beads, horses, or other goods or service to the teacher or healer. (Nowadays most transactions involve those peices of paper called money.) This is very important as it designates value on the spiritual as well as material levels, honoring the Creator from whom all the "gifts" originate,  enables the transaction to be fullfilled, and the teacher/healer to continue to focus on their work.

 Consider that some people seem to think that by offering a pack of cigarettes to  a Native knowledge keeper or medicine person he/she is supposed to heal, teach, or otherwise help them. Tobacco is an offering to the teacher/healer to consider the request, and may be accepted or refused. If the teacher/healer then "gives" his/her services, the petitioner "gives" in return as is appropriate.

Consider that teaching in a conventionally instructional/academic  context, be it workshops, seminars, or lectures, about  history, culture, applications of knowledge, or how to make things from leather, is a whole 'nother thing than personalized and specific teaching such as an Elder, Medicine Person, Knowedge Keeper may offer or agree to share in terms of their Native culture.

I hope this helps in understanding that neither Littlefox nor Runningwolf put a price on ceremony or specific Native teachings or healings, but gratefully accept gifts/donations to help cover expenses. They are, however, qualified and rightfully justified to set fees for conventional presentations of non-sanctified information on history and culture.  Rather than being exploiters, they have given, sacrificed, and suffered in keeping and trying to pass on the tradtional knowledge and ways.

I know that certain specific knowledge Littlefox was taught as a boy was bought by the blood of his grandfather's family. He and Runningwolf are committed to the responsibility of the "gifts" they were given, and have paid dearly themselves in living according to their commitment.
There is a lot more to this than what you will find on websites or looking for things to pick apart and discredit. Not that they need your opinions for validation. What is real is real. What Soquili Center is about is more  than can be comprehended thru the limitations of this media. It can't be fully explained in a few paragraphs, a forum,  or a web site, or fully understood without first-person experience. Who amoung you is willing to invest the time  and pay the "price" for something that is beyond any monetary value?  

tohi

Deb


Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: snorks on April 16, 2006, 10:27:19 pm
"I know that certain specific knowledge Littlefox was taught as a boy was bought by the blood of his grandfather's family. He and Runningwolf are committed to the responsibility of the "gifts" they were given, and have paid dearly themselves in living according to their commitment.  "

I don't understand this paragraph.  What does 'was bought by the blood of his ... family' mean?  'have paid dearly themselves in living according to their commitment.'?

I am an naturalist committed to local conservation.  How do I pay dearly for this committment?  I don't understand any of this.
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Four_Winds on April 16, 2006, 11:43:42 pm
Reply for snorks:
Back when Ed Littlefox's grandfather was a child in OK Territory, he was one of those selected to be taught the Old Ways so that they would be preserved. His family members, as well others, were interrogated when their children did not show up for boarding school. They would not tell where the children were or anything else, not even under extreme duress, and paid with their lives. This is a brief synopsis, Ed Littlefox may share the details if he wishes.

Living according to commitment to keeping and practicing certain knowledge and ways is a covenant with the Ancestors and Creator. It is a Path and dedication that supercedes normal lifestyles and  comforts, family and relationships, and even health. That cost was borne by both Runningwolf and Littlefox , as well as others of that ilk.  The details are personal information that I feel not appropriate to discuss on a public forum; if they wish to share it , that is up to them.

If you are dedicated to local conservation (or any other purpose you believe intensely in), how far will you go, how much will you give up, toward fullfillment of of your commitment?  


tohi,
deb
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: educatedindian on April 17, 2006, 09:28:00 pm
Hello Deb,
I take it you are Deborah Natoli, the secretary of the "band/ecclesiastical society"?
Hello Redbear,
Hopefully it won't get too confusing, since we already have a longtime member, Deborah Redbear.

"It seems to me that altho your intentions are good, this discussion has evolved into a nit-picking battle and lack of understanding of the most important points thru lack of comprehension or effective communications."

Exactly. Copeland didn't seem to understand what we were asking about, just assumed one thing after another and argued about things we never said while ignoring the real questions.

There are dozens of these would be Cherokee tribes out there, some well intentioned, and some outright abusive in how they treat their members. The "Soquili" shares many things in common with them:

Hostility towards recognized NDNs.
A persecution complex about being unenrolled or unrecognized.
Vagueness about their alleged ability to teach tradition.

Those could all be signs of well intentioned if flawed groups as well, but the "Soquili" also shares these things in common with some of the worser would be tribes:

Claiming or teaching non-Cherokee NDN traditions as Cherokee.
Claiming or teaching non-Native ways as Native.
And of course, immediately trying to stifle criticism, including using ridiculous legal threats.

Once again, in Copeland's own words:

"These winged creatures are the essence of Spirit-Energy. As such they need a “bed-plate??? of matter to continue the creation of a material plane. Humanity is that bed-plate. To take care of this new, material body, “Ego??? was invented along with consciousness. We are now separate from Spirit Nature (our True Nature) only because the Ego, with its will, rebels against the Spirit-Self."

Are you seriously trying to tell us *that* is part of Cherokee tradition?

And like Patty pointed out, most of the time he's just taking Ed McGaa's word about Lakota tradition.

Why would an alleged Cherokee traditionalist spend so much time teaching about medicine wheels, for example?

And why would a Micmaq (yes Copeland, I've also seen it spelled M'icmaq, Mic'maq, and Micm'aq) be teaching "lost Cherokees"?

Why does Copeland criticize pan NDNism but talk constantly about eastern woodlands or southern woodlands, as though Cherokee beliefs=Choctaw=Chickasaw=Seminole=Lumbee=dozens of other tribes? ?
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Four_Winds on April 18, 2006, 10:57:27 am
Hi Al,
Yes I am Deborah Natola.
Please note that the Soquili Center, Soquili Band, and the Ecclesiastical Society are 3 different entities for specific purposes, but they are inter-related.

I think the misunderstandings are coming from both sides, and started with the initial comments about "horse ceremony people" and "An alleged band of people with distant Cherokee ancestry led by a Micmaq talking aobut the Anishnaabe Seven Fires prophecy. "  both of which are derogitory, insulting, and contradictory to the information quoted in the same post. But no point in re-hashing the arguments if answers are what you want, right?

I do not know how you came to these conclusions:
"Hostility towards recognized NDNs.
A persecution complex about being unenrolled or unrecognized.Vagueness about their alleged ability to teach tradition. "


regarding :
"These winged creatures are the essence of Spirit-Energy. As such they need a “bed-plate??? of matter to continue the creation of a material plane. Humanity is that bed-plate. To take care of this new, material body, “Ego??? was invented along with consciousness. We are now separate from Spirit Nature (our True Nature) only because the Ego, with its will, rebels against the Spirit-Self."
 
Are you seriously trying to tell us *that* is part of Cherokee tradition? "


Yes, other than descriptive terminology is different. The Winged Beings are a part of Cherokee traditions as well as many others.

"he's just taking Ed McGaa's word about Lakota tradition."


Ed has no regard for MaGaa, nor ever read anything by him. He received his Lakota information directly from reputable sources, in the traditional ways. He has had opportunities to stay with several other tribal cultures besides his own, share the knowledge, and participate in ceremonies.

"Why would an alleged Cherokee traditionalist spend so much time teaching about medicine wheels, for example? "

Medicine wheels are a part of Cherokee tradition, as a tool for teaching.
Three basic things that most north American tribes have in common are sacred use of tobacco, medicine wheels, and purification rites. Keeping in mind that the culture goes back at least 10,000 years, some variations specific to certain tribes/groups have evolved.

And why would a Micmaq  be teaching "lost Cherokees"?  

Why shouldn't a Mi'kmaq  teach people of Cherokee or any other heritage ? Runingwolf is a superb artist and craftsman as well as historian. He speaks  several languages and dialects, and is well recognized as a pictoglyph interpreter. He has taught at UNM, U-AZ, Berkely, NM Park Service, etc, and can give you referances to check from them as well as from Mescalero, Pueblo, and others.

........................................................

In the early history of the Americas, the indigenous people traveled, intermingled, inter-married, and traded to and from all points. They had a large population, complex societies, cities with outlaying villages, regional centers for ceremony, education, commerce, etc. It was after the Spanish (who did NOT "discover" America) and others brought diseases that killed more people than their weapons did, and the population was decimated (estimated at 80%-90% of aprox 100,000,000), that the survivors became more separated.

The site that Soquili Center is on was an inter-tribal  center for education and major ceremonies for 1000s of years. We are keeping with that concept in the re-establishment of the place. We have hosted representatives of other NDN backgrounds and cultures, who have (protocol being followed) shared ceremony, teachings, and comradere.  
It is a Sacred Site by it's inherent nature as well as use by previous occupants. This has been experienced by many people, and historically documented by the first Euro settler here in the 1750s.
We do not own the property, are leasing the farm that contains some of the former habitation areas and most of the ceremonial site; another part of the site is on an adjoining tract which is being developed. This farm may be sold for development in the future. We are taking steps necessary to preserve and perpetuate this place for what it was and is, for the benefit af all.



tohi,
deb
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: educatedindian on April 18, 2006, 03:55:21 pm
Deb,
The answers you've given are even more disturbing, if this is what you learned from Copeland and "Runingwolf". (More on him in a moment.)

"'An alleged band of people with distant Cherokee ancestry led by a Micmaq talking aobut the Anishnaabe Seven Fires prophecy.'  both of which are insulting and contradictory."

You might find it insulting, but it happens to be the truth.
You call yourself a band when you are clearly not.
Copeland openly says everyone who comes to him is of distant ancestry.
Your own site talks about the Seven Fires prophecy.
 
"I do not know how you came to these conclusions:
'Hostility towards recognized NDNs.
A persecution complex about being unenrolled or unrecognized.
Vagueness about their alleged ability to teach tradition.'"

Simple, they are taken from Copeland's own words.
 
"'These winged creatures are the essence of Spirit-Energy. As such they need a “bed-plate??? of matter to continue the creation of a material plane. Humanity is that bed-plate. To take care of this new, material body, “Ego??? was invented along with consciousness. We are now separate from Spirit Nature (our True Nature) only because the Ego, with its will, rebels against the Spirit-Self.'"
 
Yes, other than descriptive terminology is different."

Oh brother. Humanity as a bed plate is more than just terminology. It's Nuage gibberish.

"Ed has no regard for MaGaa, nor ever read anything by him. He gotten his Lakota information directly from reputable sources, in the traditional ways. He has had opportunities to stay with several other tribal cultures besides his own, share the knowledge, and participate in ceremonies."

I've been invited to more than a few ceremonies, but that does NOT make me qualified to teach them, nor take payment. Nor is Copeland  
 
"Medicine wheels are a part of Cherokee tradition, as a tool for teaching. You didn't know that?"

Medicine wheels are NOT part of Cherokee tradition, except among Nuage wannabes and those influenced by them. You didn't know that?
 
"There are three basic things that most north American tribes have in common.... sacred use of tobacco, medicine wheels, and purification rites."

He sure has been feeding you a lot of nonsense.
Medicine wheels are rare outside of the northern plains, and for some of them they are just a calendar, and for others any sacred teaching either was lost long ago or is being kept hidden.
Most of the nonsense being claimed about MWs comes from Nuage exploiter Charles Storm and his awful Seven Arrows books, denounced as fraudulent and offensive by the Cheyenne (including Bernard Red Cherries when NAFPS worked with him briefly.)  
 
"Why shouldn't a Mi'cmaq be able to teach people of Cherokee or any other heritage"

Because he doesn't know the culture, couldn't possibly as well as an actual Cherokee.
Because it's not his culture.
Because it's disrespectful and offensive to just about all Cherokees.

From others, I found out Runningwolf is not a Micmaq name. If this is a Spiritual name, this would only be said in ceremony and in their own language, not in ordinary use and not the English translation.
The name Runningwolf is also not Penobscot. Runningwolf says he was taught by a Penobscot Grandmother, which really does not make sense, and the Penobscot is a different tribe, related somewhat to the Passamaquoddy, who are related somewhat to the Maliseet.  All speak a similar language with different dialects, and grew corn.
Mikmaq is a totally different language and was much more hunter gatherer culture, and so had different cultural traditions.

And that doesn't even begin to go into the problems with how different the Micmaq are from Cherokee. People claiming one heritage but "teaching" about another is one of the most common signs of a Nuage fraud. If they didn't charge you, Copeland openly admitted he charged others.

Based on what you tell me, Deb, I'm moving the "Soquili" to the Fraud section. Your group is nowhere near as bad as the Harley Reagans or Lynn Andrews, but it is doing a lot of wrong things, teaching a lot of lies and desperately lacking in respect or knowledge of the traditions.
Most of what Copeland and "Runningwolf" (whatever his actual name and heritage are) is Pan Indian nonsense, assuming all NDN cultures are the same. It's sad to see what he's doing, misleading so many people trying to learn the old ways who don't realize how little he knows.
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: snorks on April 18, 2006, 04:39:20 pm
I agree with Educated Indian.  

From what little I know about Indian issues, one thing that people do stress is the maintaining of their own cultures.  If someone is a Micmaq, they would be teaching other Micmaqs or at least be a part of the tribe.  They wouldn't be teaching Cherokees about being Cherokees.

I think since the New Age folks have mixed things up so much that it seems that everyone has a Medicine Wheel.  I didn't know that they didn't until I started reading this site.  All the books have the medicine wheel as part of their lore.

I think once you start delving into the sources of New Age ideas, you get a different idea about the real culture.
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Four_Winds on April 18, 2006, 05:24:17 pm
Dear Al,
It is not "my" website, I did not write anything on it. I am only trying to answer questions and clarify some points where you are confused . I do not speak for Ed or Michael personally, nor have all the information they do.
I don't know why Ed used that terminology for the Winged Beings, but a polite question would work much better than disparaging remarks. Are you doubting their existance too?
Being invited to ceremonies is not quite the same as living with people and learning directly from them in the traditional way. Any traditionally trained medicine person or ceremenial leader would understand how that works.
Who told you Cherokees do not have medicine wheels? ? That is a white-man word for it anyway, not what every culture calls it, but it is the same concept and system.
Who said a Mi'kmaq was teaching people about Cherokee customs?
Runningwolf is the shortened translation of his ancestral name, and is his legal name.
Ed Littlefox and Michael Runningwolf have a lot more knowledge of who they are and their respective heritage than any self-styled expert, and can provide the credentials as well as futher details.
As I stated before there is too much to explain in a few paragraphs, a forum, or on a website.
to hi
Deb
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: debbieredbear on April 18, 2006, 05:32:48 pm
Just a guess, but I would bet it was Cherokee people that said Cherokees don't have medicine wheels. Are you Cherokee?
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: TrishaRoseJacobs on April 18, 2006, 06:24:15 pm
So, Four Winds, you don't see anything wrong in non-Cherokees teaching Cherokee people or non ndns for that matter, non-Cherokee traditions while claiming that these teachings are, in fact, Cherokee?

Oh, so perhaps I oughta set myself up as a Catholic priest. Being a non-Catholic, and a woman to boot, I'm sure that when I teach Catholics all about being Hindu's or Protestants, both things I don't anything about either, it will be perfectly acceptable.

Let me be straight up with you - I'm Cherokee, but I'm not enrolled. And I don't care about anyone else's enrollement or lack thereof either, so long as they don't claim otherwise.

What I do care about is people who are of Cherokee heritage being taught non-Cherokee traditions by self proclaimed "Cherokee" experts like your Mic Mac buddy.

Now, since you seem to be his friend, perhaps you could answer these questions or get him to answer them for you

1. Is he of Cherokee heritage, yes or no?
2. Is he a practicing "medicine man" in a legitimate (not over the internet or in some bizarre place like Timbuktu) Cherokee community?
3. Why make up a Cherokee band?
4. Since I can't say I've ever heard of these "Winged Beings" (and being Cherokee I would have thought that I'd heard something about them by now) that are supposedly part of our traditions - perhaps you could enlighten me. What are they? Who told you about them? Who told that person? And could you tell me where they fit into the stories I know since you know all about it? And if you don't know - then what gives you the right to come on here and tell us all that we're just giving "opinions" rather than speaking from our cultural backgrounds - a background that doesn't appear to be yours?

Just a little curious about all these Cherokee "traditions" I don't know about.



 :-/
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Four_Winds on April 18, 2006, 11:37:16 pm
Trisha Rose,
Your first question is a little confusing. If you mean Ed, his heritage is Cherokee  and Saponi, he was raised on Qualla,  taught by his Cherokee maternal grandfather, is extremely knowledgeable and qualified. If you mean Michael, he was raised and  taught his Mi'kmaq traditions and culture from a very early age and is extremely knowledgeable and qualified, but he never has claimed to teach Cherokee traditions or do Cherokee ceremony, and it has never been stated that he does.  Neither has Ed claimed that he teaches Mi'kmaq ways or does Mi'kmaq ceremony, nor has that been stated. Other than what people here have gotten confused.


In your second question I am guessing you mean Ed.
1. see above, and as stated on his website.
2. he is a legitimate medicine man,  in open society; he helps anyone regardless of race, color, or belief.
(he has NEVER asked for money for this)
3. I think that is explained on his website.
4. They are Sacred Beings.  Ed was taught about them and other Old Way Knowledge in Alati dialect (the original language). Some of the older people still know about them and other old traditions, but it is not common knowledge amoung all people of Cherokee descent.
5. I have spent over 15 years learning and experiencing things on levels that you (in general) apparently don't have a clue about. Altho I don't have as extensive or the same background as Ed and Michael, I am qualified to comment on what I know. Some things are not to be taken lightly or with disrespect, nor for public consumption. If you want that information you will have to ask in the proper way and be prepared to dedicate some serious time and effort...if you qualify and are accepted by a teacher.

to hi
deb







Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Le_Weaponnier on April 18, 2006, 11:46:24 pm
Quote:
"These winged creatures are the essence of Spirit-Energy. As such they need a “bed-plate??? of matter to continue the creation of a material plane. Humanity is that bed-plate. To take care of this new, material body, “Ego??? was invented along with consciousness. We are now separate from Spirit Nature (our True Nature) only because the Ego, with its will, rebels against the Spirit-Self."

Hmmm so you dig a little deeper and you find out about the "winged creatures"??????

From Ed Littlefox's page:
http://www.metaphysicalcenterofnewjersey.org/PipeCeremony.html
"The second breath: taken in reverence for the Earth Mother Elohi, mother and provider of all living things."

So I did a Google search for "Elohi"
Oddly enough, Elohi is the same name used on this website -http://www.angelsuniverse.com/elohichi.htm

There you may contact the 'Angels'?

"An Elohi-Chi session is done through a live phone consultation, scheduled at a mutually agreeable time. Elohi-Chi is a powerful spiritual healing and transformational method similar to LaHoChi and Reiki. Elohi-Chi helps to restore healthy balance on all levels of being, by restoring our axiotonal connections and etheric crystalline matrix, or Divine Blueprint, through the Elohim and Angelic realms, and working in conjunction with the Brotherhood and Sisterhood of Light, Ascended Masters, Christ Consciousness and Divine Mother.

Elohi represents the Elohim light, Eri has been working with the Elohim and the Elohim Angels of many dimensional levels since 1996. Through years of learning how to facilitate the higher dimensional vibrations and light in her workshops, groups and readings, Eri was instructed by the Elohim to assist in bringing through this information and healing modality to humanity. Just as in Reiki and other healing techniques, Elohi-Chi works on a step-by-step initiatory level, from Level I through level XII to Master. Each level opens more of your channels of light, attunes higher chakras and levels of Higher Self into your physical aruic field, and connects you through your axiotonal lines/meridians to Healing Masters and levels of Pure Holy Spirit Light. "

Now since "chi" is an eastern word for energy. How far east did the Cherokee get? I'm glad to see that the Cherokee people believe in Angels :)
And here we go again with the Chakras:)
Isn't "chakras" a word from the 'other ' Indians? You know, the eastern ones?

It would seem that Littlefox is mixing his cultures.
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Four_Winds on April 19, 2006, 12:23:46 am
Elohi / E-lo-hi is Tsalagi for Earth...yep,  for real, go look it up.
Sometimes it is the longer form of E-lo-hi-no
I'm sure you can find it in any good online Cherokee-English dictionary.

This has nothing to do with the Elohi-chi person, who is using the Hebrew word Elohi meaning God  


Other info:
 http://www.ahalenia.com/noksi/elohi.html

http://www.elohi.com/

http://homepage.mac.com/eliseo2/blogwavestudio/LH20050117105112/LHA20050527152004/index.html
          
http://members.nuvox.net/~on.roz/God/name/elohim.html

(kinda makes you wonder if there is some connection between the Hebrews and Cherokees, huh?)

 ;)


deb
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: TrishaRoseJacobs on April 19, 2006, 04:29:01 am
Quote

uh, no. Not really.

Okay Four Winds. Good to know the Mic Mac guy isn't running around claiming to be a teacher of Cherokee teachings. Though - Why couldn't you just say that rather your snide little remark way up above about "Why shouldn't a Mi'kmaq ? teach people of Cherokee or any other heritage ? Runingwolf is a superb artist and craftsman as well as historian. He speaks ? several languages and dialects, and is well recognized as a pictoglyph interpreter"

2. I didn't ask about an open society. I asked does he practice in a Cherokee society administering to Cherokee people - on the Qualla where you say he was raised, for example - cuz if not - well, I would could consider him a generic "medicine man" who caters to whites rather than an actual Adawehi. Now, if so many of us Cherokee are so ignorant as you imply, I have to wonder why that is. Why not live in a Cherokee community and help teach the kids what they oughtta know instead of spending all his time with non's who, really, don't need to know? Is it because, as with many frauds, traveling to a native community to teach runs the risk of having someone find out about what you're doing?

3. And clearly, by the rest of your dumb little remarks, that's what he is. Rather than answer questions about knowledge you claim to have, you pull the "It's sacred, that's why I have it and you don't" Nuage Two-Step. Spare me the fifteen years of experience thing, okay? I've been reading Harry Potter for almost ten years now, but that doesn't mean I think I can actually go to Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry.

Thanks for your uninformative and egoistic reply, appreciated it.
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: EarthinkCo on April 19, 2006, 01:19:23 pm
Hello to all,
I am writing to say that this strange judgement against Soquili is distracting attention from the purpose of Soquili. That is regarding the sacred mounds they are working to protect and preserve. This area has been viewed by the State Archeologist and there is much evidence to prove the existence and historical use of this large, beautiful site. It is currently threatened with development.
There are more valuable ways to spend our time. Remember the land issues? How about the current plight of the First Nations? Or historical genocide and ethnic cleansing?
You know, these mounds could be the earth and people changing ceremonial grounds that the hearts of the people have called out for, waited for and sacrificed for. At the very least they are a significant historical cultural artifact.
I am a business person and am appalled. I do not see any real attempt to substantiate anything you've slung at Ed and RunningWolf. Your original posting didn't even reflect the words on the Soquili Site. Broad extrapolations have been turned into biased declarations that border on slander. It's very sad to see a professed brother pulling the "crab in the pot" on a couple of very committed elders.
Marianne
PS. You can "check" me out as I am checking you out. www.earthinkco.com
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Four_Winds on April 19, 2006, 02:16:20 pm
Ok Al, TRJ and all..
there has been enough info provided and credentials offered to prove that Ed Littlefox and Michael Runningwolf are who they say they are, and the Soquili Center, Band, and Ecc. Society are not involved in any fraudulent acts or purpose.
But you continue to demand irrelevant personal and spiritual information, try to make connections that  Just don't come crying when Coyote bites you in the butt.
deb


Quote
Quote
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: Chutwood on April 19, 2006, 06:32:39 pm
Deb - Four Winds,

You demand respect repeatedly, but you are not willing to give it.  Where is the respect to those who are trying to protect the innocent against the frauds and abusers of sacred ways?  

Knowledgeable people have asked serious questions and you have responded with disdain and arrogance, which in itself calls into question those that teach you.  When you have been given truth from those knowledgeable people, you disregard it without even considering it.  It appears what you've learned is to have a closed mind, and again it calls into question those that teach you.

I am a Puyallup (Coast Salish), not Cherokee or Lakota, so I don't have the knowledge to question your statements that are specific to Cherokee or Lakota.  But, I do live as traditional Puyallup life as possible and have done so for my 56 years, and even I recognize some of the misinformation that you have been taught.  Medicine wheels are not part of the Coast Salish ways; tobacco is not a part of the sacred ways of the Coast Salish peoples, so CLEARLY medicine wheel and tobacco are NOT common to all indigineous peoples.  

If you have wrong information on just those two issues, then what else might you be misinformed about?  If you were taught incorrectly on those two issues than what other teachings you received might be wrong?

Those are the questions that you SHOULD be asking and that is the very reason that I (speaking only for self) very much doubt the knowledge and expertise of your teachers.  

Storm
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: educatedindian on April 19, 2006, 07:23:12 pm
Deb,

"(kinda makes you wonder if there is some connection between the Hebrews and Cherokees, huh?)"

Actually it makes me wonder what other Nuage lies he's been spreading that you've fallen for. The only groups claiming Cherokee are Jews are another PODIA outfit who don't know any better. Cherokee historians are the ones that have debunked the claim that Cherokees are Jews, just as it's been Cherokees who've repeatedly pointed out to me they don't have medicine wheels.

(Some of the Scots who came into early contact with and intermarried with Cherokees likely were Jews hiding their heritage.)

Like Storm pointed out, you don't know the most basic things. Apaches and Navajos don't have medicine wheels, and didn't use tobacco in ceremony until after the start of reservation days. (Not too easy to gorw in the deep desert.) That's over a quarter of all NDNs in the country that don't practice what you claim "all" NDNs practice.

It's truly amazing to me how arrogant you are, almost as arrogant as Copeland is.

It's incredibly obvious he's neither a medicine man nor elder. He is without humility or basic knowledge, substituting a bad temper and high handedness instead. He enourages these traits in his naive followers.

Marianne,
Are you kidding? You seriously think the protection of traditions from obvious frauds is not important?

I do agree with you about one thing. Protecting sacred sites is important. Such sites should not fall into the hands of frauds like Copeland.

No idea why you'd think telling us you were in business would impress us. This isn't Rush Limbaugh, where people fall all over you for bowing down to the "free market." Esp since you don't know the laws about libel or slander, and (like Deb and Copeland) didn't bother to even read what we said. Empty threats to sue just amuses us.

I can't help notice that you ask us to speak with those we ask questions about, but Copeland refuses to come here. Instead he sends others here to do his bidding and go on the offensive (another common tactics of frauds.)

His latest angry broadside on the Soquili site is another good example. He refuses to answer to most of our questions, though he did admit they are no "band" (even while Deb claimed that was "insulting.") He lists *himself* as "elder" on his incorporation forms, but no true elder would label themselves that.

I found his "investigation" of me pretty amusing. Seems he didn't even know Ruidoso is not on the Mescalero rez, it's an overpriced tourist trap nearby. And he didn't even bother to read what I've said about myself a number of times, that I live in and grew up in Texas.
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: JosephSWM on April 20, 2006, 05:35:27 pm
Well, time to put my two cents worth in, and thats about all. You don't have to be a  Cherokee to be born and raised in Qualla. And even if you are and are enrolled you can still be sellouts like the Garretts who mix and match this ndn and that ndn tradition to meet the needs of thier publisher.

There are very few folks who were really raised to continue the 'old ways'. Hey I was brought up with old ways but that does not make me a teacher/spiritual elder/medicine man, etc. Down in Qualla about the only one I know of alive that really knows the old ways is Walker Calhoun, and from I have been told he does not want to pass them on to anyone. But I could be wrong.

Anyway, I figure I would  add a few more words. Way too many to read already.

Joseph
Title: Re: Soquili Band of First Nation Cherokees
Post by: educatedindian on May 28, 2006, 06:53:26 pm
Seems Ed Copeland can't resist coming after us yet again. He has a new message about us filled with raging contradictions.

"Plain Talk
What Soquili is All About – and Isn’t
If it hadn’t come up, I wouldn’t feel compelled to write this page."

Actually this had died down many weeks ago, but you chose to bring it up again. So that tells us you've been facing questions because of our looking into you.

"For what it’s worth, it would appear to me that anyone with a formal education certified with the degree of PhD, (field notwithstanding), would be able to comprehend the content of this website and understand it for what it is. Yet, graduate degrees bespeak nothing of ? “common sense???, or for an intelligent mind made blind and deaf by its emersion in a hate-world formed of well-confirmed racial biases"

For what it's worth, you'd think the degree Ed Copeland has would enable him to quit using Nuagespeak and tactics to substitute for thinking. He's making a fool out of himself yet again by accusing mixedblood traditionalists of being "racist" against a mixedblood Nuager like himself.

"and an expert level non-knowledge of any aboriginal culture other than, maybe, his own. It is a very ugly Paradigm you have, Doctor, built upon very thin ice, junk science, inner conflicts,"

 ;D
Does anyone know what the heck he's talking about? I doubt he does either.

"and blatantly obvious contradictions in your own life"

 ? :-?

"made manifest in your abject failure to live by the very rules you wish to lay down for others."

 :-?

"But, then again, what can one really expect of self-styled and self-appointed demagogic judges who purport to “know it ALL???—while actually living, or having lived, none of it?"

Is he talking about himself? This is all childish insults from an alleged (excuse me-Self Appointed) "elder".

"That out of the way,"

Whatever "that" was...

"Let me state here, as clearly as my degree of knowledge of the English language, and level of my education, (PhD (H),CR) will allow"

OK, so you *were* describing yourself above... ;D

"Soquili Band is NOT a “Tribe???. We have stated that clearly and never stated otherwise."

Contradicted by your own website and words. It took quite a bit of time for you to admit that to us.

"Membership in Soquili Band is free of charge.
Members who ask to be re-educated regards Cherokee life, beliefs, symbolism, protocols, and language are given the opportunity and taught --- free of charge."

Interesting...you defended before your alleged "right" to charge.

"Members who wish to participate in ceremonies and ceremonials, such as Busk, are invited to do so—free of charge
Members wishing to learn traditional Crafts, Dance, Agriculture, Husbandry, and Gathering, are invited to do so, as well---free of charge."

See above.
 ?
"That should explain to any person on Earth, what we are about. Al, if you want to try and twist or spin the above to your own ends, then you will do so at the risk of your own Integrity."

My integrity is intact. Yours, you never had, except for among some PODIAs who didn't know better.

"We will not back down from this position at your behest or that of anyone else."

You already have on some things.

"Now, for what we are NOT.
We are not “Shamans???, and never made that claim. Again, we are not a Tribe, and never made that claim."

Again, see above.

"We are not Lakota, and do not proffer “Lakota Ways??? or those of any of the Great Plains Peoples—(collectively, A-ni Ya-ni-sa)."

Contradicted by your own words elsewhere on your site.

"We do not take money or charge fees for either ceremony or cultural instruction"

Again, you defended your "right" to do so.

"within our own cultural group and society."

And here's the fine distinction they make. That implies Outsiders ARE charged.

Ironically, that means you are charging based on RACE, even while you accuse critics of "racism".

"We do not and will not charge money for Ceremony--and never have. This is the real context of the Tribal Elders when speaking of that, and, no, nobody takes money for teaching or ceremony inside their own Tribe , Nation, or Culture.
We do not deal in Crystal Twinkie subject matter, or any other type of “Woo-woo???.

Nope, none of that talk of "bed plates of matter" is twinkie. Sure ;D

"We deal in Realities, those of our Culture, Beliefs, and Life-ways. They ARE Reality as far as we are concerned. They are, in fact, how I live and what I live by, every day."

Reality for you is a "bed plates of matter"? Reality for you is alleged beings that no other Cherokee has ever heard of?

"I do not make my living by charging for Cultural Teaching and doing ceremony for people. I make my living in the Horse Business and by selling artwork. What I do regards cultural activities is Service to humanity and my People. It is transpersonal, and a matter between myself and Unequa; having nothing to do with any other party, mammon,"

Someone's been reading their Christian tradition.

"or Al Carroll. In pursuing that, I am honoring a commitment I made many years before Al was born;"

Then you made that commitment very early in life. I think there's maybe a dozen years age difference between us.

"in a place and among a People he has no familiarity with historically or prehistorically, nor is, nor can be, the judge of."

"Familiarity prehistorically"? ? ;D
Right, you who claim beings that no Cherokee has ever heard of.            

"What we are doing here is two-fold. We are trying to preserve and maintain a Sacred Site that was known all over the East Coast of the US, and that is in grave danger of being destroyed by Development. Secondly, we are helping Lost Birds return to their Culture."

No one's arguing with that, but with the very questionable Nuage METHODS and lies you tell to allegedly accomplish that.

"By and large, Lost Birds did NOT voluntarily give up their Identity or their Cultural Heritage; rather, the crowbars of Western Mind-set, Mandated Assimilation, Denial of Constitutional Rights, Discrimination, Indoctrination, and purposeful Oppression and Suppression tore it away from them. This has nothing whatever to do with the “nuage???

Right, it's the smokescreen for the Nuage nonsense you teach.

"–actually “Gnuage???—Crystal Twinkies, Space Buddies, UFOlogy, Science Fiction, “The Force???, Metaphysical Flakes, Tea Ladies, or Al Carroll. But, we do thank you Al, as, at least now, the Crystal Twinkies will stay off my butt and out of the way."

Are you kidding? Nuage flakes are all you have, and all you are. Hapy to LIE in your "bed plates of matter" thinking it's somehow Cherokee.