NAFPS Forum

General => Research Needed => Topic started by: Defend the Sacred on March 22, 2010, 08:13:39 pm

Title: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 22, 2010, 08:13:39 pm
We've received some complaints about this guy. Reports are that he's claiming to be an Apache Medicine Man, and is selling sweats and NAC ceremonies to all-white groups in Europe. There are also reports of him doing private ceremonies specifically for women. Looks to me like yet another who couldn't muster a following here, so crossed the water to sell to the Europeans.

This is an email that was sent out to potential recruits in Denmark. Can someone tell us what the bolded charges equate to in US currency?

begin quote

(-: invitation to ceremony :-)

We are extraordinary happy to inform you that Hector Ybarra is back in May to share with us 3 weekends of sacred ceremonies with the desert medicine.

When Hector visited the first time in April 2009 he made a very big impression on so many people, and we have been asked again and again, when he is coming back. Now the time has come. Hector is a Yaqui Apache Mechika medicine man living in Colorado, USA. He is also an ordained priest in the Native American Church. This time Hector brings both his wife Kelsie and his fire chief. It is great finally to wellcome the dynamic of a spiritual couple in ceremonial ways and we hope to see many of you.

Hector holds ceremonies the following weekends:

30th of april to the 2nd of may

7th till the 9th of may

21th till the 23th of may

If these weekends get fully booked we have an option to make another ceremony the last weekend of May from the 28th till the 30th

This time the weekends will be a bit different than previously, cause we invite you to share the whole weekend with us.

The traditional ways are so much more than just participating in a ceremony. Preparing a ceremony is a hard job but also a wonderful way of sharing and building up the energy for the spiritual work. It also creates sweet bondings and great connections between the participants and is a way to create the fundament for a stronger spiritual community around the tradition, which is exactly what we wish to build up here in Denmark.

So signing up will be for the whole weekend from Friday at 6 pm till Sunday at 4 pm.

Friday the first preparations for the fire, sweat lodge and the tipi ceremony begins and there will be a singing workshop in the evening where Hector teach us some of his sacred songs. Songs and prayers are important parts of the ceremonies Hector holds. They create a very special space and therefore we find it important to strenghten this part of each individual's participation cause it helps creating beauty and power during the nights.

Saturday we all have breakfast together and after that the sweat lodge has to be build, the tipi prepared and wood brought to the fireplace. Food also need to be cooked for everybody and the ceremonial food prepared. Everybody helps and we will share a lovely day working together. In the evening we start the cermony with a sweat lodge for purification and right after that we continue with the tipi ceremony. Traditionally it begins at sunset and ends at sunrise. Everybody is asked to sit up all night. If you have back problems or is an elder you might lay down some of the time.

Sunday people traditionally stays up till sunset before they sleep but we are not that strict in Denmark. It is required though to help cleaning up after the ceremony and inside the house before leaving. Again it's a part of the ceremonial consept and a great way to ground the spiritual process.

Signing up for the weekend: If you are interested in meeting Hector and participating one or more of the weekends please reply this email and we will email you more, detailed information.

In the email we ask you to write:

1) your full name

2) your telephone number

3) what weekend you would like to sign up for - or which ones ;-)

There is only a limited amount of people participating each weekend, so in order to reserve a space with us you need to sign up as soon as possible and pay a deposit of 1000,- kr. (of which 500,- kr. is non-refundable) for each weekend you wish to join to this bank account in Nordea: 1726 7560-784-087

By paying early you help us to but the flight tickets early while they are still less expencive. Thank you.

Be aware that you need to bring your own tent, sleeping bag etc. for overnight acommodations. The ceremonies takes place outside Holbæk at Hanne and Frank's place.

Payment for each ceremony: We as organizers have pondered a lot about the financial aspect of ceremonies in general. We find this is a very important and challenging subject, and therefore we would like to share our thoughts about it.

Traditionally payment has always been by donations only, where after a gathering the hat will go round, with all surpluses going to the shaman. Since we also would like to be more in tune with the old traditions and trust the Universe that in donation all will be perfectly balanced we would like to introduce the old ways, but in a new way.

The last ceremonies we had in December, which were totally donation-based, didn´t generate any organizing cost- and only a very little amount for the medicine people. That experience we do not wish to repeat. So we feel a need to find a middle way between free and fixed. You might recall that weekend ceremonies in the past have always cost around 2000 kroner. Now we will do it like this: we ask of you to transfer 1000 kroner beforehand, of which 500 kroner will be non-refundable (we have had too many last minute cancellations..) because we have expencive flights to book for the medicine people to come.

Then at the weekend you can bring donation money for Hector and his family. Like this we can ensure that everybody can join it, even those with a low income, respecting the ancient tradition of never asking money for any healing treatment or ceremony. Remember medicine people generally have large extended families and their own tribe to support, and are not able to generate any income while they are away from home; they depend on our generosity.


Hector also takes private clients, while he is here. If you are interested in getting a healing session with him please let us know.

Be so kind not to forward this message. This is a personal invitation - if you have a friend who could be interested in getting the invitation, they can write to us or make a phone call.

Lots of love and greetings

Hanne, Frank, Tom and Rikke


Hector Ybarra:

(http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/7073/hectorybarra2.jpg) (http://img260.imageshack.us/i/hectorybarra2.jpg/)

Mange hilsner
Rikke Agersted
Shamanistisk healer, biopat og phytoterapeut

Helseklinikken
Himmelev Bygade 56A
4000 Roskilde
Tlf: 28 18 70 44

end quote
emphasis added
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on March 22, 2010, 11:05:26 pm
I believe it is Danish Kroner? If so.. then, 1000 kr = 181.05 usd and 500 kr = 90.53 usd
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 23, 2010, 06:58:24 pm
Ybarra appears to also be using the name "Hector Little Wolf" in his European advertisements. We received this flyer. The charge for this workshop is 3,000 NOK (Norwegian Kroner), which equals about Euro 375 or  US $505.

(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8962/littlewolf001pdf.th.jpg) (http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8962/littlewolf001pdf.jpg)
(click thumbnail for full-size flyer)

Translation of flyer text:

"Workshop with Indian medicine man Hector Little Wolf

"Would you like to learn about North American Indian culture? To participate in
building a sweatlodge and experience a sweatlodge ceremony?

"This is unique in Norway. The workshop will teach traditionally about "peace
pipe" traditional healing, sweatlodge ceremony. Traditions from North and
South America.

"Where:
Bergen April 16-18
Rendalen April 23-25
Fee: 3,000.00 including meal and accom.
Every time with Hector is remarkable
Booking up to March 1. Call Kjersti, cell phone 99 31 55 53"

...............

Norwegian facebook pages come up for him, such as this one:

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=327708337036&id=195197152036

"Camilla Angelina Håman  Sjamanisme - Healing - Selv oppdagelse
www.oneintent.net: Hector "Little Wolf" kommer til Norge, og skal ha en
workshop i Samnanger 16-18.april og i Rendalen 23-25.april. Det vil bli
tradisjonell indiansk undervisning om den hellige pipe,tradisjonell healing,
svettehytteseremoni.Tradisjoner fra Nord Amerika. Det vil også bli mulig å
bestille privat konsultasjon hos Hector" L...ittle Wolf". For info og
påmelding: Ring Kjersti Jackson på mobil 99 31 55 53. Siste frist er 1 Mars."


The content is basically the same as in the flyer - apart from this entry
'just' claiming "traditions from North America".
Plus they advertise the possibility of "private consultations" with him, with
no price mentioned. Again, the last date for booking is March 1. 
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 23, 2010, 07:08:31 pm
I believe it is Danish Kroner? If so.. then, 1000 kr = 181.05 usd and 500 kr = 90.53 usd

Looks like it's probably Norwegian Kroner. This site http://coinmill.com/USD_calculator.html gives 1000 NOK as $168.10 USD.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on March 23, 2010, 08:42:36 pm
I believe it is Danish Kroner? If so.. then, 1000 kr = 181.05 usd and 500 kr = 90.53 usd

Looks like it's probably Norwegian Kroner. This site http://coinmill.com/USD_calculator.html gives 1000 NOK as $168.10 USD.

Ok.  Well, I couldn't possibly know.. LOL so what I did was copy this: 
Helseklinikken
Himmelev Bygade 56A
4000 Roskilde
Tlf: 28 18 70 44

Paste it in Google and hit search. It came up with a website which I clicked on 'translate this site' and the
site popped up saying it was translating from Danish.. so...  I guessed it was maybe Danish Kroner.   :-)

Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Ingeborg on March 23, 2010, 09:09:57 pm
Just for the record: It's two different events.

The first ad is for a seminar in Roskilde, i.e. Denmark. They charge DKr 2,000 per weekend, in Danish Kroner.

The flyer in post no 3 is advertising seminars in Bergen and Rendalen which are situated in Norway. The price of NOK 3,000 indeed means Norwegian Kroner.
And there is this sentence locating the seminars:
Quote
"This is unique in Norway.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 23, 2010, 09:13:20 pm
Thanks, Ingeborg :-)
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on March 23, 2010, 09:18:24 pm
 ;D  LOL funny.   :D   Thanks Ingeborg  :)
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: tachia on March 25, 2010, 07:43:47 pm
We've received some complaints about this guy. He's claiming to be an Apache Medicine Man, and is apparently selling sweats and NAC ceremonies to all-white groups in Europe. There are also reports of him doing private ceremonies specifically for women. Uh oh.  Looks to me like yet another who couldn't muster a following here, so crossed the water to sell to the Europeans.

This is an email that was sent out to potential recruits in Denmark. Can someone tell us what the bolded charges equate to in US currency?

cite the sources? .. google shows nothing on this in particular and very little, even after digging, on Ybarra himself .. the name "hector little wolf" turns up absolutely nothing .. .. .. you say "we've received some complaints" .. who is we? .. did this come directly to NAFPS? .. or just to you kathryn? .. from whom did you obtain the "personal invitation email"? .. was the picture of Ybarra included in the personal invitation email or added later? .. and where did you get the flyer from? .. .. sources please ..

you say: "There are also reports of him doing private ceremonies specifically for women" .. again where does this information come from, this is a potentially quite damaging accusation to just toss out there without a source .. reports from where/who? ..

you say: "He's claiming to be an Apache Medicine Man" .. i do not see anything in what you have posted where Ybarra himself claims to be anything, only where the group claims he is something .. and they say he is " a Yaqui Apache Mechika medicine man" (not just an Apache medicine man as you stated) .. the flyer says "Indian medicine man Hector Little Wolf" again that is the groups claim not Ybarras, and do we even know if this is the same man? .. i could find absolutely nothing on a "hector little wolf" .. how do we know this is the same person? .. how can we find out? ..

you say that Ybarra is: "apparently selling sweats and NAC ceremonies" .. i see where the group is charging for the event, but i do not see where Ybarra himself is specifically charging for anything .. .. ..
the group themselves addressed this issue of charging:(my bold) "Payment for each ceremony: We as organizers have pondered a lot about the financial aspect of ceremonies in general. We find this is a very important and challenging subject, and therefore we would like to share our thoughts about it

Traditionally payment has always been by donations only, where after a gathering the hat will go round, with all surpluses going to the shaman. Since we also would like to be more in tune with the old traditions and trust the Universe that in donation all will be perfectly balanced we would like to introduce the old ways, but in a new way.

The last ceremonies we had in December, which were totally donation-based, didn´t generate any organizing cost- and only a very little amount for the medicine people. That experience we do not wish to repeat. So we feel a need to find a middle way between free and fixed. You might recall that weekend ceremonies in the past have always cost around 2000 kroner. Now we will do it like this: we ask of you to transfer 1000 kroner beforehand, of which 500 kroner will be non-refundable (we have had too many last minute cancellations..) because we have expencive flights to book for the medicine people to come.

Then at the weekend you can bring donation money for Hector and his family. Like this we can ensure that everybody can join it, even those with a low income, respecting the ancient tradition of never asking money for any healing treatment or ceremony. Remember medicine people generally have large extended families and their own tribe to support, and are not able to generate any income while they are away from home; they depend on our generosity." .. .. that seems to be a pretty good explanation of the groups decision to charge for the event, it also says that Ybarra will only receive donations, not that he is charging anything himself .. ..

without sources, web sites etc. that can be researched and verified this information amounts to hearsay .. the flyer gives us a bit more to go on, but where did it originate, what or who is the source of this info? .. how did this come to your attention kathryn? .. we cannot research this without some sources etc .. it is also difficult to properly understand this due to the language barrier .. things get lost in translation, we all know that .. ..

these are serious and damaging accusations .. and so far there is nothing concrete to back them up .. .. the credibility of NAFPS relies on definitive research backed up by indisputable facts .. i have been told many times that we must back up what we say with facts, sources, web sites etc .. that hearsay and personal experience are not acceptable without the facts to back them up ..

has anyone else been able to find out more about this? ..

ingeborg, can you find out anything from your end? ..






Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 25, 2010, 08:46:04 pm
Multiple private communications came in, from multiple Scandinavian sources, who say the flyer and emails are about the same guy. The photo was in the original email, but didn't upload properly in the initial posting.

When we are contacted privately with information, we investigate. We protect confidentiality when it is requested.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Moma_porcupine on March 26, 2010, 03:54:49 pm
Hi Tachia

I agree that there is always a concern when anonymous people make allegations of a personal experince - like that there is a man doing private ceremonies for women . I hope most people will know to take any unverifiable reports of questionable behavior from anonymous people on line, with more than a grain of salt. But NAFPS has many reports like this, and it can be hard to know how to warn the public there *may* be a problem, and protect people from having wierd an totally unfounded stories spread about them.

But I'm not clear about the rest of what you are saying here and why.

Are you saying you don't think these emails and fliers exist and someone has just made this up? I agree I like to be able to see for myself that someone is advertising themself as claimed. Because it's always possible someone might make up a story that someone was doing this just to make trouble. And it is  harder to verify who is behind a privately circulated flier or email.

So are you saying you don't think Hector Ybarra is involved in this at all, or that what he is actually doing over in Europe is being misrepresented by this supposed email and flier?

Or are you saying you think traditional cultural practices like Sweat Lodge, Tipi ceremony and Sacred songs belong over in Europe and the European community has what it takes to maintain these traditions in a good way?

Are you saying you think it's OK, as long as these ceremonial leaders don't do the advertising and charging for out of context cultural fragments themselves, and they only cooperate with the people who advertise them and set up charges, by showing up?

Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: earthw7 on March 26, 2010, 07:04:55 pm
I am saying it is all wrong :o
People should not be doing ceremonies in Europe at all
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on March 26, 2010, 08:30:40 pm
I googled Hector Ybarra and didn't find anything that pertained to this individual. Nothing good, nothing bad. Nothing. Nada. Zip. If he's such an exploiter, you'd think there'd be something on the internet. I'm not saying there's nothing out there, I just wasn't able to find it. Usually if there's smoke, I'm able to find the fire. Don't know. Maybe my investigative skills aren't what they used to be. I'll give it another shot.

There was some not-so-good stuff about a different Hector Ybarra. Hopefully no one is confusing these two men.


Edit to add: When googling Hector Little Wolf, I found several facebook accounts mentioning him. These are all in Norwegian, so I'm not sure what they're saying. I could assume they're talking about the seminar mentioned above, but I'm not going to do that. There are no pictures of Hector Little Wolf, neither is the name Ybarra used.

Camilla Angelina Håman (http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=327708337036&id=195197152036#!/profile.php?id=1076584704&ref=nf)

VisionQuest Bergen (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=info&gid=69669593688)

Medium (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=55549666855)

Den Andre Siden (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Den-Andre-Siden/239743367258)
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 26, 2010, 10:59:58 pm
This is the "Research Needed" section, and if there are any inaccuracies with the names, or anyone has been mistaken for anyone else, I'll be glad to do my part to clear it up. I have no desire to cause distress to anyone who is innocent, or who may just have a common name. But so far it looks like this is all the same guy, and these workshops are being advertised on public "shamanism" boards online. I have no idea how many people have attended these pay to pray deals. Hopefully some of the people who've attended these things and/or written in about it will be posting here soon.

While all the public announcements I've seen say "Hector Little Wolf", both names have shared associates. In my opinion, there are just too many overlaps for it to be two different guys. But again, if there's been any mistake we'll clear it up.

Having people turn up with multiple names is really, really common. Call me cynical, but it wouldn't be the first time we've seen someone take a stage name and hit the newage workshop circuit, trying to keep that part of their life separate from their legal identity, or from the name they're known by back home. If this is the case, I think it's important for people to know about aliases someone may use.

In this public posting, advertising "Little Wolf" workshops on a shamanism board (http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=327708337036&id=195197152036), the organizer/contact is:

Kjersti Jackson (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000543103472&ref=ts)
.

At the top of Kjersti Jackson's friends list is Hector Ybarra's wife, the above-mentioned Kelsie Young (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1671756421) (and another page for her (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=sgm&id=100000179978371))

Kelsie Young's pages link to that of the band Coupstick (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Coupstick/120145190679).  "Hector" (no last name given) is the lead singer, and looks to be the guy in the picture in the Hector Ybarra email (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3074238&id=120145190679).

Commenting on their pictures page (http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=136368&id=120145190679) we again have "Hector Little Wolf" workshop organizer,  Kjersti Jackson. Saying: "Love and miss you guys......"

There are lots of people on Facebook. People being friended with one another, or posting cheery comments to one another, proves nothing. But these people all have smallish friends lists there, so it would be a rather huge coincidence. While all of the above is public (you may need a facebook account to see the pages, I'm not sure), it lines up with what's been sent in the emails.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 26, 2010, 11:53:49 pm
Thanks for the links, Bonnie. Google translator seems to choke on Facebook formatting. But it does pretty well if you copy and paste the text in here: http://translate.google.com/#no|en|

______ from http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=327708337036&id=195197152036 _____

Camilla Angelina Håman in Shamanism - Healing - Self-discovery www.oneintent.net: Hector "Little Wolf" comes to Norway, and will have a workshop in Samnanger 16-April 18 and in Rendalen 23-April 25. There will be traditional Indian teaching about the sacred pipe, traditional healing, svettehytteseremoni.Tradisjoner from North America. There will also be possible to book a private consultation with Hector "LIttla Wolf". For info and registration: Call Kjersti Jackson on mobile 99 31 55 53 Deadline is March 1.

Would you like to learn about the North American Indian culture? Be to build sweat house, and experience a sweat house ceremony! This is unique in Norway! Medicine Man Hector "Little Wolf" is coming to Norway in April, and will have a workshop in Samnanger outside Bergen and Rendalen in North Østerdalen. Hector is publicly registered as a medicine man in the official U.S. registry. For more info: Kjersti Tel: 99315553.
February 11 at 7:12 am
_____ end quote _____

_____ from http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=69669593688 _____

VisionQuest Bergen Kjersti Jackson wish everyone a good Easter holiday! Workshop with Hector "Little Wolf" will be postponed to a later date. For those who would like to meet Hector and participate in various ceremonies, so he comes to Copenhagen in late April. Take the papal line with Frank Eagle Brother so he can provide further information. Have a lovely spring :-)
14 hours ago

Kjersti Jackson Would you like to learn about the North American Indian culture? Be to build sweat house, and experience a sweat house ceremony! This is unique in Norway! Medicine Man Hector "Little Wolf" is coming to Norway in April, and will have a workshop in Samnanger outside Bergen and Rendalen in North Østerdalen. Hector is the public registrert as medicine man in the official U.S. registry. For more info call 99315553
February 11 at 5:17 am
_____ end quote _____

I couldn't find the mention here:
Found it http://www.facebook.com/pages/Den-Andre-Siden/239743367258

"Den Andre Siden" looks to be a talkshow hosted by four women. Looks like most of the participants on the board for the show are women. Info: "The other side "the other side" is a talk show about everything between heaven and earth. Four inspirational and dedicated program managers use their unique skills and insight into the spiritual in the face of phenomena we can not always explain."
_____ begin quote _____

Kjersti Jackson My Indian brother and teacher Hector Little Wolf comes to Norway, and will have a workshop in Samnanger 16-April 18 and in Rendalen 23-April 25. There will be traditional Indian teaching about the sacred pipe, traditional healing, sweat house ceremony. Traditions from North and South America. There will also be possible to order ...... private consultation with Hector Little Wolf. For more info call me on my mobile 99 31 55 53.Vis more
January 21 at 9:52 pm · View Feedback (2) Hide Feedback (2)
_____ end quote _____

In this one http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=55549666855
Camilla Angelina Håman  and Kjersti Jackson again post the same text they posted on the other boards (translated above), though the one by Camilla adds "traditions of North and South America".
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Rattlebone on March 27, 2010, 04:56:37 am
 I find it odd how in other threads, certain individuals here were complaining about people allowing what they "claimed" were PODIA's or even NONs being allowed in ceremonies, and yet in this thread those same individuals are presenting an argument indicating almost as if they think it's okay to run native ceremonies in Europe.  ???



 
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: debbieredbear on March 27, 2010, 05:42:42 pm
I was wondering that myself.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on March 28, 2010, 03:23:22 pm
I don't think anyone is condoning the selling of ceremony in Europe or anywhere else. The point that was being made was that these are damaging accusations which could ruin a person's reputation and life and we have no sources, nothing that we can research. Yes, there are blips about the event in several Norwegian facebook accounts and the flyer. None of us speak Norwegian. It'd be nice to see something about Ybarra in English. In fact, it'd be nice to have something besides facebook. If he's such an exploiter, you'd think there'd be something more on the internet about him.


Kathryn started this thread with:

Quote
We've received some complaints about this guy. Reports are that he's claiming to be an Apache Medicine Man, and is selling sweats and NAC ceremonies to all-white groups in Europe. There are also reports of him doing private ceremonies specifically for women. Looks to me like yet another who couldn't muster a following here, so crossed the water to sell to the Europeans.

Where in any of those facebook messages does it say anything about "private ceremonies specifically for women"? Comments like that could lead someone to believe Ybarra is a sexual predator, even though there is no proof of that, not even an innuendo.

I think we need to be very careful about making unfounded accusations. There are enough people criticizing NAFPS for what we do, accusing us of being witch hunters and condemning without doing our research. We don't have to live down to their opinions.

Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on March 28, 2010, 04:27:58 pm
I have found one mention of Hector Ybarra on the internet from 2008. I think it's safe to say this is the Ybarra in question, since this rally took place in Denver. I've discovered that Hector seems to be a common first name with families having Ybarra as a surname. As I mentioned earlier, when googling Hector Ybarra, info on several different individuals came up. We need to use caution, ascertaining that we have the right man, before we start posting.


Quote
Democrats and Allies Rally Against the Prohibition of Marijuana
Fri., Aug. 22
2:30 pm to 5:00pm
West Steps of State Capitol Building

As progressive voters we share the responsibility of repudiating seventy years of failed policy on marijuana. The prohibition of marijuana takes a toll on our treasury, and on people's lives. We are rallying to demand that our government repeal the repressive criminal laws that pretend to deny us the safest intoxicant and excellent medicine which is marijuana. Securing America's future requires that we end the drug-Gulag, and stop imprisoning citizens for private and harmless conduct. At the conclusion of our rally, we march on the Denver Police Administration Building, to demand that the Denver Police Department stop defying Municipal Ordinance Sec. 38-176, which requires the City to make enforcement of the state statute prohibiting the possession of marijuana its lowest priority, and to insist that Chief Gerald R. Whitman resign immediately for his abrogation of the Law. We contend that under the Home Rule provision of the Constitution of the State of Colorado, it is already legal in Denver under state law for adults to possess up to an ounce of marijuana.
PROGRAM

Opening Ceremony - Hector Ybarra (tepatl),
Native American Dance Troupe Mitotilitzli
Introduction - Brian Vicente
Sensible Colorado, National Lawyer's Guild, People's Law Project
Medical Marijuana - Richard Eastman, Citizens for Safe Access, National Marijuana Activist
Keynote Address: Robert J. Correy, Jr., Marijuana Defense Attorney
Marijuana Media - Adriana, Producer, Marijuana Radio
Thought & Provocation - Mckenna, marijuanaradio.com
Political Agenda - Robert Chase, Team 420 VRD Organizer, Mensan & Member of the Triple Nine Society
Address to the Marijuana Movement - Miguel Lopez. Executive Director of Denver's Annual 420 Rally,

Contacts: Miguel Lopez (720) 338-8766 & Robert Chase (303) 513-2185, Team 420

More DNC "Green" Events:
http://www.denver420.com/
http://www.colorado420.com/news/dnc.index.html

Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Rattlebone on March 28, 2010, 05:22:54 pm
I don't think anyone is condoning the selling of ceremony in Europe or anywhere else. The point that was being made was that these are damaging accusations which could ruin a person's reputation and life and we have no sources, nothing that we can research. Yes, there are blips about the event in several Norwegian facebook accounts and the flyer. None of us speak Norwegian. It'd be nice to see something about Ybarra in English. In fact, it'd be nice to have something besides facebook. If he's such an exploiter, you'd think there'd be something more on the internet about him.


Kathryn started this thread with:

Quote
We've received some complaints about this guy. Reports are that he's claiming to be an Apache Medicine Man, and is selling sweats and NAC ceremonies to all-white groups in Europe. There are also reports of him doing private ceremonies specifically for women. Looks to me like yet another who couldn't muster a following here, so crossed the water to sell to the Europeans.

Where in any of those facebook messages does it say anything about "private ceremonies specifically for women"? Comments like that could lead someone to believe Ybarra is a sexual predator, even though there is no proof of that, not even an innuendo.

I think we need to be very careful about making unfounded accusations. There are enough people criticizing NAFPS for what we do, accusing us of being witch hunters and condemning without doing our research. We don't have to live down to their opinions.




Quote
I don't think anyone is condoning the selling of ceremony in Europe or anywhere else.

  Well in my initial post in this thread, I for one stated that some here have said they were against PODIA or NONs being allowed in any native ceremony, or that they should only be allowed in certain ones.

   I am under the impression that you for one would believe that way, and that is fine. However if that is true of you and a few others on here, then why would it be okay for this man to even conduct ceremonies in Europe in your eyes and not okay for people here to allow NONs or PODIA people in ceremonies here in the states?

 Perhaps you should clarify your stance on that issue???

 My opinion on the matter is this. The traditions and ceremonies of a certain people or tribe belong to those people, and were gifted to them by the creator. If those people and their spiritual leaders see fit to allow people from other tribes, PODIA's, or even NON's in such things that is their choice and right.

 I for one have seen with my own eyes and been present, when well known elders have allowed PODIA's and even NON's whom they were close to and trusted into sweats and other things. They key point to this matter is that these NON's or PODIA's whom were allowed in, were ones that the elder or his family had known for a great deal of time, and trusted etc.

 On one occasion I listened to one elder I was close to speak to his daughter in law whom ran sweats for women, and at that time the topic of NON's in sweats and other things came up. The elder asked his daughter in law what she felt about getting NON's involved in things like sweats if they were going to do it in a good way, which of course meant doing so with respect and not becoming an exploiter or anything similar.

 Her reply to him was that really she didn't have an issue with it, but was against it because of the tremendous amount of energy it would take to help these people, and that because NDN people were hurting so badly, they should be helped and not NON's. The elder thought about it, and then he agreed with her. All of that made sense to me.

 As you know, NDN people are hurting really bad, and their ceremonies should be for them first and foremost, even if I am not against elders and spiritual leaders helping NON's and PODIA's if they see fit and it is okay with their people and community.

 So to me this throws into question why some man would be way over in Europe running native ceremonies for NON's??? Did some tribe or their spiritual leaders send him on some mission to help these people, and why would they when this should be done for NDN people here. If you are going to help NON's, why not help ones here since doing so would give them an NDN world view and better help NDN people here both politically and spiritually?

 Why even go to Europe period, when the spiritual ways of NDN people are not like Christianity and we do not seek to "convert" people to our ways???

 This man, regardless of what his name, is obviously attracting attention to himself and to me that and what his actions are over there are indicative of new age hocus pocus and most likely plastic shame-on fraud activity

Quote
The point that was being made was that these are damaging accusations which could ruin a person's reputation and life and we have no sources, nothing that we can research.

 On the contrary, as has already been pointed out, this is "research needed," so how is this any different then what has been said in any other thread in this section?

 I have seen in other threads where people have been compared to child molesters or something to that effect with no such proof they were anything of the sort, and much was said with just as little or no sources to actually investigate just as in this thread.

 So how is this any different then any other research needed thread?

Nothing here has been said to indicate this person is actually guilty of these actions any more so then the many numerous threads in this section of NAPFS.


Quote
If he's such an exploiter, you'd think there'd be something more on the internet about him.

 True, unless this is his very first time with people finding out about him. Everything and everyone have their start and finish.
 
Quote
I think we need to be very careful about making unfounded accusations. There are enough people criticizing NAFPS for what we do, accusing us of being witch hunters and condemning without doing our research. We don't have to live down to their opinions.

 Again, how is this thread in research needed any different then any other one????

 


 
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on March 28, 2010, 06:38:14 pm
I don't think anyone is condoning the selling of ceremony in Europe or anywhere else. The point that was being made was that these are damaging accusations which could ruin a person's reputation and life and we have no sources, nothing that we can research. Yes, there are blips about the event in several Norwegian facebook accounts and the flyer. None of us speak Norwegian. It'd be nice to see something about Ybarra in English. In fact, it'd be nice to have something besides facebook. If he's such an exploiter, you'd think there'd be something more on the internet about him.


Kathryn started this thread with:

Quote
We've received some complaints about this guy. Reports are that he's claiming to be an Apache Medicine Man, and is selling sweats and NAC ceremonies to all-white groups in Europe. There are also reports of him doing private ceremonies specifically for women. Looks to me like yet another who couldn't muster a following here, so crossed the water to sell to the Europeans.

Where in any of those facebook messages does it say anything about "private ceremonies specifically for women"? Comments like that could lead someone to believe Ybarra is a sexual predator, even though there is no proof of that, not even an innuendo.

I think we need to be very careful about making unfounded accusations. There are enough people criticizing NAFPS for what we do, accusing us of being witch hunters and condemning without doing our research. We don't have to live down to their opinions.




Quote
I don't think anyone is condoning the selling of ceremony in Europe or anywhere else.

  Well in my initial post in this thread, I for one stated that some here have said they were against PODIA or NONs being allowed in any native ceremony, or that they should only be allowed in certain ones.

   I am under the impression that you for one would believe that way, and that is fine. However if that is true of you and a few others on here, then why would it be okay for this man to even conduct ceremonies in Europe in your eyes and not okay for people here to allow NONs or PODIA people in ceremonies here in the states?

 Perhaps you should clarify your stance on that issue???

 My opinion on the matter is this. The traditions and ceremonies of a certain people or tribe belong to those people, and were gifted to them by the creator. If those people and their spiritual leaders see fit to allow people from other tribes, PODIA's, or even NON's in such things that is their choice and right.

 I for one have seen with my own eyes and been present, when well known elders have allowed PODIA's and even NON's whom they were close to and trusted into sweats and other things. They key point to this matter is that these NON's or PODIA's whom were allowed in, were ones that the elder or his family had known for a great deal of time, and trusted etc.

 On one occasion I listened to one elder I was close to speak to his daughter in law whom ran sweats for women, and at that time the topic of NON's in sweats and other things came up. The elder asked his daughter in law what she felt about getting NON's involved in things like sweats if they were going to do it in a good way, which of course meant doing so with respect and not becoming an exploiter or anything similar.

 Her reply to him was that really she didn't have an issue with it, but was against it because of the tremendous amount of energy it would take to help these people, and that because NDN people were hurting so badly, they should be helped and not NON's. The elder thought about it, and then he agreed with her. All of that made sense to me.

 As you know, NDN people are hurting really bad, and their ceremonies should be for them first and foremost, even if I am not against elders and spiritual leaders helping NON's and PODIA's if they see fit and it is okay with their people and community.

 So to me this throws into question why some man would be way over in Europe running native ceremonies for NON's??? Did some tribe or their spiritual leaders send him on some mission to help these people, and why would they when this should be done for NDN people here. If you are going to help NON's, why not help ones here since doing so would give them an NDN world view and better help NDN people here both politically and spiritually?

 Why even go to Europe period, when the spiritual ways of NDN people are not like Christianity and we do not seek to "convert" people to our ways???

 This man, regardless of what his name, is obviously attracting attention to himself and to me that and what his actions are over there are indicative of new age hocus pocus and most likely plastic shame-on fraud activity

Quote
The point that was being made was that these are damaging accusations which could ruin a person's reputation and life and we have no sources, nothing that we can research.

 On the contrary, as has already been pointed out, this is "research needed," so how is this any different then what has been said in any other thread in this section?

 I have seen in other threads where people have been compared to child molesters or something to that effect with no such proof they were anything of the sort, and much was said with just as little or no sources to actually investigate just as in this thread.

 So how is this any different then any other research needed thread?

Nothing here has been said to indicate this person is actually guilty of these actions any more so then the many numerous threads in this section of NAPFS.


Quote
If he's such an exploiter, you'd think there'd be something more on the internet about him.

 True, unless this is his very first time with people finding out about him. Everything and everyone have their start and finish.
 
Quote
I think we need to be very careful about making unfounded accusations. There are enough people criticizing NAFPS for what we do, accusing us of being witch hunters and condemning without doing our research. We don't have to live down to their opinions.

 Again, how is this thread in research needed any different then any other one????

 


I hesitate to reply to your post, Rattle, because you always take it as a personal attack on you or those you're close to. This is not the case.

I have never stated that nons or PODIA's shouldn't be allowed in ceremony. That choice is not mine to make. The decision to include non-Natives in ceremonies would be up to those to whom Creator gave them.

Why is Hector Ybarra in Europe? I don't know. There isn't enough information out there to answer that question. Should he be in Europe conducting ceremonies? That would be up to his community, his Elders. There's the question about selling ceremony . . . That is always wrong; ceremony is not for sale. Is Ybarra actually selling ceremony or has something been lost or added in translation? I don't know.

This wouldn't be the first American Indian to go to Europe. Some are definitely exploiters, while others are not. Until we know more about Hector Ybarra, we can't put him in one category or the other.

In most cases, there is data we can find on those who land in Research Needed. The person who starts a thread will have read something that gives an indication that the individual is a fraud and/or exploiter and links are given to that reference. When someone "hears something" or "sees something", they usually give at least a little information about who they heard it from or where they saw it. If someone called you with a complaint about this individual, say so. If you received an e-mail, post it. I understand the need for anonymity, but you can say you received a call from someone without saying who called you or an e-mail can be posted without giving information that would disclose who the author was. I've seen Al start threads in this way. To simply say "We've received some complaints about this guy" is not enough. Who is doing the complaining? How did you receive these complaints? The fact that there is nothing on the internet, in English, makes me wonder about all this.

As I said earlier . . . I think we need to be very careful about making unfounded accusations. There are enough people criticizing NAFPS for what we do, accusing us of being witch hunters and condemning without doing our research. We don't have to live down to their opinions.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 28, 2010, 07:11:59 pm
Multiple private communications came in, from multiple Scandinavian sources, who say the flyer and emails are about the same guy. The photo was in the original email, but didn't upload properly in the initial posting.

When we are contacted privately with information, we investigate. We protect confidentiality when it is requested.

I'm not sure what about that is unclear. It is very, very common for people who are hesitant to post in the forum to write to the mods and administrators and ask for help. There is nothing new about this.

We are not going to publish people's private communications. What I posted was an email that appears to have been sent out to a fairly large group of people, a flyer that was posted on facebook by Hector Ybarra's friend, and multiple public advertisements for the European workshops and "private consultations". The people who have contacted us with specific complaints about their in-person dealings with him have been asked to join the forum and speak for themselves.

Is this more clear?
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on March 28, 2010, 07:33:41 pm
Multiple private communications came in, from multiple Scandinavian sources, who say the flyer and emails are about the same guy. The photo was in the original email, but didn't upload properly in the initial posting.

When we are contacted privately with information, we investigate. We protect confidentiality when it is requested.

I'm not sure what about that is unclear. It is very, very common for people who are hesitant to post in the forum to write to the mods and administrators and ask for help. There is nothing new about this.

We are not going to publish people's private communications. What I posted was an email that appears to have been sent out to a fairly large group of people, a flyer that was posted on facebook by Hector Ybarra's friend, and multiple public advertisements for the European workshops and "private consultations". The people who have contacted us with specific complaints about their in-person dealings with him have been asked to join the forum and speak for themselves.

Is this more clear?

Yes, you did say "Multiple private communications came in, from multiple Scandinavian sources" in the 9th post in this thread, after you'd been questioned about where your information came from. As for the "private consultations" . . . Could you point to where these are "specifically for women", as you stated in your opening post? I may have over-looked that info. I look forward to hearing from someone who knows Ybarra and has first-hand information about him. Hopefully these individuals will join us.

I am not defending Hector Ybarra. I'm wondering about our ethics here.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Rattlebone on March 28, 2010, 08:29:03 pm



I hesitate to reply to your post, Rattle, because you always take it as a personal attack on you or those you're close to. This is not the case.

I have never stated that nons or PODIA's shouldn't be allowed in ceremony. That choice is not mine to make. The decision to include non-Natives in ceremonies would be up to those to whom Creator gave them.

Why is Hector Ybarra in Europe? I don't know. There isn't enough information out there to answer that question. Should he be in Europe conducting ceremonies? That would be up to his community, his Elders. There's the question about selling ceremony . . . That is always wrong; ceremony is not for sale. Is Ybarra actually selling ceremony or has something been lost or added in translation? I don't know.

This wouldn't be the first American Indian to go to Europe. Some are definitely exploiters, while others are not. Until we know more about Hector Ybarra, we can't put him in one category or the other.

In most cases, there is data we can find on those who land in Research Needed. The person who starts a thread will have read something that gives an indication that the individual is a fraud and/or exploiter and links are given to that reference. When someone "hears something" or "sees something", they usually give at least a little information about who they heard it from or where they saw it. If someone called you with a complaint about this individual, say so. If you received an e-mail, post it. I understand the need for anonymity, but you can say you received a call from someone without saying who called you or an e-mail can be posted without giving information that would disclose who the author was. I've seen Al start threads in this way. To simply say "We've received some complaints about this guy" is not enough. Who is doing the complaining? How did you receive these complaints? The fact that there is nothing on the internet, in English, makes me wonder about all this.

As I said earlier . . . I think we need to be very careful about making unfounded accusations. There are enough people criticizing NAFPS for what we do, accusing us of being witch hunters and condemning without doing our research. We don't have to live down to their opinions.


 Well I have nobody on this site that I am close to or consider friends. The only person/persons you would say I am "close to," are ones that in actuality I was not very close at the time when they were being discussed. Also this thread has zero to do with me, or anyone I know, and so I don't really understand the comments you made that centered around any of that and were put in this thread.

 At any rate I don't believe you really understood the point I was making.

 A person I knew as a child at about the age of 13 has been in and out of prison since they were  18. I know this because I knew they were getting in trouble as a kid and I had always felt bad about it and was curious how their life has been since I last knew them. So I  recently googled their name and seen public records about their court records, convictions etc.

 One of the things I noticed in all of this, was the exact same thing I notice whenever I study or read about a lot of court cases; with many of those being ones that center around tribes, tribal sovereignty etc.

 In these court case a judge or other  will take a ruling from a case that might be similar to the one they are currently making judgment on and make a decision based on that ruling. Sometimes they might take a court case or a verdict that is not exactly related to, but similar the case they are working and use it to make a decision. For instance they might take a case in which the government or some bureaucracy has found a way to ignore tribal sovereignty on a case involving labor unions wanting to unionize a tribal business, and use that in similar but different case that doesn't involve tribal business at all, but rather just some aspect of tribal sovereignty that is almost totally different.

 So my point with this is, that if I read people on this board making it known that a person should be put in this category simply for the fact they potentially are, or are rumored to have NON's or PODIA's in native  ceremonies; then I do not see why objections are being raised when this individual is said to, or is rumored to be doing the exact same thing. To me that is no different then looking up a court case and saying was done in this case, and therefore our decision is this. So in regards to this, I am saying it is not unlike comparing this to a court case and saying "this person was put under investigation for having NON's in native ceremonies so in this particular case this individual is being investigated as well."

 It is no secret to anyone that when such things are going on, it may not always be a reason for concern, but more likely then not it is.

 I am sure you could look through many many threads in this category and find people under investigation for pretty much the same thing. If this reason is justification for one person, then it should be justification for anyone who does it.

 You are correct that the ethics of this board should be kept in mind, and I am saying part of that should be consistency by it's members. In my opinion that is not happening in this thread when people are raising objections simply to putting this individual under investigation, when similar investigations have been done  on others for similar reasons, with a great deal of them not being stated as fact but rather just investigation.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on March 29, 2010, 12:09:42 am
Only quoting part of Rattle's last post, the part I want to address.


So my point with this is, that if I read people on this board making it known that a person should be put in this category simply for the fact they potentially are, or are rumored to have NON's or PODIA's in native  ceremonies; then I do not see why objections are being raised when this individual is said to, or is rumored to be doing the exact same thing. To me that is no different then looking up a court case and saying was done in this case, and therefore our decision is this. So in regards to this, I am saying it is not unlike comparing this to a court case and saying "this person was put under investigation for having NON's in native ceremonies so in this particular case this individual is being investigated as well."

 It is no secret to anyone that when such things are going on, it may not always be a reason for concern, but more likely then not it is.


 I am sure you could look through many many threads in this category and find people under investigation for pretty much the same thing. If this reason is justification for one person, then it should be justification for anyone who does it.

 You are correct that the ethics of this board should be kept in mind, and I am saying part of that should be consistency by it's members. In my opinion that is not happening in this thread when people are raising objections simply to putting this individual under investigation, when similar investigations have been done  on others for similar reasons, with a great deal of them not being stated as fact but rather just investigation.


I don't think anyone has ever been investigated solely because they included non-Natives or PODIA's in their ceremonies. That really isn't a big concern. Those decisions are better left to the Nations to which the ceremonies belong. Some of the people investigated here may include non-Natives in their ceremonies, but it is not the compelling force behind their inclusion in Research Needed. Each and every one of them has crossed other lines which warranted their investigation.

Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Rattlebone on March 29, 2010, 02:04:02 am
Only quoting part of Rattle's last post, the part I want to address.


So my point with this is, that if I read people on this board making it known that a person should be put in this category simply for the fact they potentially are, or are rumored to have NON's or PODIA's in native  ceremonies; then I do not see why objections are being raised when this individual is said to, or is rumored to be doing the exact same thing. To me that is no different then looking up a court case and saying was done in this case, and therefore our decision is this. So in regards to this, I am saying it is not unlike comparing this to a court case and saying "this person was put under investigation for having NON's in native ceremonies so in this particular case this individual is being investigated as well."

 It is no secret to anyone that when such things are going on, it may not always be a reason for concern, but more likely then not it is.


 I am sure you could look through many many threads in this category and find people under investigation for pretty much the same thing. If this reason is justification for one person, then it should be justification for anyone who does it.

 You are correct that the ethics of this board should be kept in mind, and I am saying part of that should be consistency by it's members. In my opinion that is not happening in this thread when people are raising objections simply to putting this individual under investigation, when similar investigations have been done  on others for similar reasons, with a great deal of them not being stated as fact but rather just investigation.


I don't think anyone has ever been investigated solely because they included non-Natives or PODIA's in their ceremonies. That really isn't a big concern. Those decisions are better left to the Nations to which the ceremonies belong. Some of the people investigated here may include non-Natives in their ceremonies, but it is not the compelling force behind their inclusion in Research Needed. Each and every one of them has crossed other lines which warranted their investigation.




 You know, I may be at least half wrong to have said what I said  in the way that I did, but you are at least half wrong as well. I could have made the same comparison about Judges cross referencing court case verdicts to decide their verdicts; then tied what I said to asking for money or donations instead of just having NON's in ceremony alone.


 My mistake here, and what made me wrong in what I said here, is that I forgot there was more then just the issue of NON's in Europe being allowed in ceremony; there is in fact mention of asking for donations or what looks to me to be fee's charged for services. Had I added that in to my last post, nothing I said in regards to consistency would have been wrong whatsoever.
 

If you examine what is being said about this Ybarra man more closely, and compare it with other threads in this category; you will see he is being accused of pretty much of the exact same thing as other people are in these research threads. There is the mention of NON's and $$$$ in this thread, just like most others in this category.


 True he isn't being called an exploiter solely based allowing NON's in ceremony, and I should not have presented it in that way.

 However, my pointing out what I feel is a lack of consistency on the part of some members here still a valid statement.
 
 So yes, I was wrong in what I said, but that was just partially.
 
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Defend the Sacred on March 29, 2010, 03:32:49 pm
The website of Hanne and Frank (no last names given, that I could see),
who sent out the email in the first post:
http://www.denandenvirkelighed.dk/engelsk/indexengelsk.html

from http://www.denandenvirkelighed.dk/engelsk/whoweare.html

" We are Hanne and Frank.
Hanne works as a schoolteacher.
She has worked on the shamanic path always, but in the last 4 years she has worked more targeted to help others.

Frank works as a painter.
He has worked with nature always and now works targeted with sweat lodges and ceremonies of shamanic art.
He build drums, rattles and other things of natural materials.

We live on the scenic Tuse Næs. It is located approx. 15 kilometers from Holbaek.
There are good connections by bus from Holbaek.

Our address is: Rugmarken 7, 4300 Holbæk"

From their blog: http://www.denandenvirkelighed.dk/blok/index.php

"Nyhedsbrev februar.
31. januar 2010


"Very good news. Our recident medicine man Hector Ybarra is coming in May.
He will be here throughout the month with his four-keeper.
Part of the month is Hector’s wife here also. This gives a lot of opportunities.
There will be sweat lodge ceremonies, the possibility of healing and of course
also possible to “just” to meet a unique human being who sees its major task
 is to help all and learn from him.Please remember that when these wonderful
people come here for so long, they do not earn the money needed to maintain their
lives at home. Therefore I ask for donations to them, so we will continue to
learn from these wonderful people."

Screencap, accessed 11am EST, 3/29/10:
(http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9158/screencaphanneandfrankb.jpg) (http://img175.imageshack.us/i/screencaphanneandfrankb.jpg/)

from: http://www.denandenvirkelighed.dk/engelsk/sweatlodge.html

"Sweat lodge

"A sweat lodge ceremony is a cleansing process. The ceremony comes from the Indians of North America and other places of the world.
Man is purified both physically and mentally.
We work with the sweat lodge after Lakota Indian tradition. We have been fortunate enough to have a Lakota Indian as a mentor.
We want at least 6 people in a sweat lodge ceremony.

"We run the sweat lodge approx. once a month. It is also possible to order a sweat lodge ceremony for a group. "
... ... ...
"It is a small death to be in a sweat lodge. There is then the opportunity to build new up afterwards."
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on March 30, 2010, 01:53:28 am
Quote
"It is a small death to be in a sweat lodge. There is then the opportunity to build new up afterwards."

That's kind of scary after what happened in Sedona.
Hanne and Frank might not want to go there.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: sentineleagle on April 01, 2010, 07:36:04 am
 Wel, Hector Ybarra has bien not only doing bad here in USA but also now whith his way of goin he also is goin to start not only doing bad ! but also given a wrong Idea of what is really tradition ! ( saling the tradition ) , and  how is posible that somebody who call his self a traditional way is not whith his self a goed man ! HE  , has to be stop !
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: educatedindian on April 01, 2010, 03:11:49 pm
Ybarra's wife contacted us and possibly may join to give her account. She sent an extremely long and hysterical letter, mostly filled with personal attacks, wherein she also claims to be an ordained water pourer for the NAC.

She also states the pay to pray ceremony in Norway is now cancelled thanks to this thread, but goes into a long defense of pay to pray and states they will go to Denmark no matter what anyone says. She claims they have the support of mostly unnamed Lakota elders.

The one name she would give is Sunka Gleska. Do our Lakota members know of him?

The closest I found to that name is this, and I don't think it's him, since this SG is Micmaq in New England.
http://georgeleduc.com/about.aspx

ETA: Important note. Ybarra's wife just emailed again, saying they did not know and would not approve at all what was going to happen in Norway, and are going to investigate themselves further. She says they are quite upset at the charging of money for a sweatlodge. I'm asking her agian if I can post her accounts here.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: sentineleagle on April 02, 2010, 07:42:20 am
It is allways like that kelsie ,she can not have a discusion because inmediatilly she goes to faith and make treads to people ! i ask if that is the principies of her teachings as NAC menber ( i doubt ) and abouth Sunka Gleska ( i dont think is his name ), he is a guy half Irish half german ! whith respect of races but is that Lakota?   i will send a note to the people of dincoalition.org . they mey know abouth him or at least to guet to know of somebody who is doing thinks in behave of then ! i also find a pity that Kelsie so much angry answer That is not a Native way of react ! whith all my respect .
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: educatedindian on April 04, 2010, 07:23:01 pm
It's gotten even stranger. Ybarra's wife adamantly refuses to allow the emails giving their side of the issue. On the plus side, the emails were mostly long rants against those bringing this issue up or doing research, even (very strangley) attacking them for past involvement with Native charities. But to paraphrase her, they absolutely refuse to debate this issue, even while demanding we stop talking about it, shut down the thread and delete it entirely.

Kelsie Ybarra also now says the Norway ceremony selling was not canceled due to this thread but due to lack of interest.

She also claims that Queztal Tzab is now posting on this thread but is not identifying himself. I had to do a search. QT is mentioned here in this thread as someone who held a ceremony with Bennie Lebeau.

---------------
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=741.0
 Other requests:

Quetzal Tzab ... Mexico, Mayan Itza shaman & lecturer ... estimated costs ... $2200

----------------

I also received a message from those running the ceremony in Denmark.

---------------

We do not wish to dispute but please post this letter in your “research needed” section of the NAFPS forum:
 
It´s with sadness in our hearts that we read the things written about Hector Ybarra and his second invitation to come to our community in Denmark. We do not recognize the Hector Ybarra described in this discussion.

We experience him as a hard working, honest and impeccable Native American very true to his culture and tradition.

We appreciate this cultural exchange with him as we need help to reconnect  to our spiritual roots.

It´s important for us to stress that the 1000 Danish crowns (about 175 US Dollars) are only used to cover the expenses for the weekend, as there are transport & flight tickets for 3 people and all the participants get food, bedding and bathing facilities.

Hector Ybarra only works on donation basis here, as mentioned in the invitation.

We only invite those people to the ceremonies who we know have the right intention to participate. We do not advertise at all.

It surprises us that we haven´t been contacted, as this website´s section is called research needed. We are very willing to elaborate on our experience of Hector Ybarra´s work but not publicly.

May the Great Spirit decide what´s right,

Frank Hansen, Hanne Jørgensen, Tom Frank Van Willigen, Rikke Agersted and Jasmin Olsen

-----------------

Anyone else wonder why the heck Danish people need an NAC Apache/Yaqui/"Mechica" healer to "reconnect" to their roots?
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: educatedindian on April 04, 2010, 07:46:03 pm
I was contacted by the secretary of the NAC chapter. He confirms Ybarra (or Ibarra as he spells it) is an ordained roadman for the NAC and was trained by a Navajo elder. The secy further says Ybarra/Ibarra does sweatlodge, is a "pipe carrier" within Lakota tradition, and leads an Aztec dance troupe.

I was also sent scans of the following:
Kelsie Ybarra's ordination as waterpourer
a certificate claiming she is "ordained by law" to conduct ceremony and even possess eagle feathers
a similar certificate for "Hector Ibarra"
another certificate for Ybarra/Ibarra's ordination as roadman

The secy goes onto say they will not debate or comment on the matter publicly. Not too surprising, the NAC's always been reluctanct to be very public.

I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of these documents. But to say they clear these matters up, well, partly but not entirely. Whether Ybarra is with the NAC was not really in doubt. The rightness of these actions is what was being looked into.

The secy's letter say he is only receiving donations necessary to cover expenses and lost wages while in Denmark. But I still am left wondering why the heck they thought it was OK for him to go to Denmark (or Norway) in the first place. What the heck is an NAC roadman doing there?

And while in their mind it may be OK for Kelsie Ybarra to possess eagle feathers, I don't think Fish and Wildlife would buy that argument.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on April 04, 2010, 09:33:29 pm
This investigation is starting to sound like another fiasco we experienced last year. Thinking about that made me remember where I'd heard Quetzal Tzab's name before. Not really wanting to bring up the topic again and at the risk of being attacked, Tzab apparently was helping Ben Carnes set up a European tour for the summer of 2008. His name was given as the contact to arrange a "presentation or benefit in Europe".

The thread has been locked (not sure when or why), so I wasn't able to use the quote feature; copied and pasted.

Quoting from Ben Carnes and Eagle Mountain Spiritual Council :


Moma Porcupine
« Reply #169 on: March 07, 2009, 08:47:02 PM »

Quote
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=113824469&blogID=386568955


Quote
Sunday, April 27, 2008
  
European speaking tour in August
Ben Carnes
Quote
The purposes of this tour is to continue to educate and raise awareness of Native issues, promote the goals of Eagle Mountain and to raise funds to help secure the land and build our infrastructure. See our website for more information .

I would also like to have some benefit shows organized there to help raise funds to secure the land, build energy efficient homes and create our own source of power using wind and sun.

For more information on arranging a presentation or benefit in Europe, contact Quetzal Tzab at: tzab.quetzal@gmail.com

Thank you,
Ben Carnes

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1655.msg19148#msg19148

Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on April 05, 2010, 03:54:17 am
Wel, Hector Ybarra has bien not only doing bad here in USA but also now whith his way of goin he also is goin to start not only doing bad ! but also given a wrong Idea of what is really tradition ! ( saling the tradition ) , and  how is posible that somebody who call his self a traditional way is not whith his self a goed man ! HE  , has to be stop !


It is allways like that kelsie ,she can not have a discusion because inmediatilly she goes to faith and make treads to people ! i ask if that is the principies of her teachings as NAC menber ( i doubt ) and abouth Sunka Gleska ( i dont think is his name ), he is a guy half Irish half german ! whith respect of races but is that Lakota?   i will send a note to the people of dincoalition.org . they mey know abouth him or at least to guet to know of somebody who is doing thinks in behave of then ! i also find a pity that Kelsie so much angry answer That is not a Native way of react ! whith all my respect .


Sentineleagle, would you like to introduce yourself? You seem to know Hector and Kelsie. Seems like you've had first-hand experience with them. Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on April 09, 2010, 02:34:22 am
I received the following e-mail from Hanne Jorgensen, one of Ybarra's sponsors in Denmark. I didn't write to him asking questions; this e-mail was unsolicited. He didn't ask that I keep his correspondence private. Obviously he has read this thread, or someone has copied and sent it to him; he comments directly to things that have been said. Jorgensen had no expectation of privacy, or at least he shouldn't have.
 

Quote
From:  Hanne Jørgensen (denandenvirkelighed@live.dk)  
Sent: Tue 4/06/10 11:41 AM
To:  bls926@msn.com

Hello
I will not go into diskusionen whether it is ok to keep the ceremony here in danmark.og therefore I write to you directly about another thing.
You ask whether I know about the case in Sedora - And of course I do det.Og I know it is not something to joke about.
I can tell you that I have led Lapp saunas and sweat lodges in more than 25 år.Og have very close touch with my Mexican teacher champion.
I think the sweat lodge ceremony is an equally old traditision in Lapland as it is in usa and do not believe that natives have a patent on it.
If you look at our www.kan you see we only work against Donati board and that all we had to get into profits, we continue to benefit formål.Vi gave 2000 dollars to Ben Carnes place so they could keep it to dance the sun dance on .
Light and Love: O)
Hello
I will not go into diskusionen whether it is ok to keep the ceremony here in danmark.og therefore I write to you directly about another thing.
You ask whether I know about the case in Sedora - And of course I do det.Og I know it is not something to joke about.
I can tell you that I have led Lapp saunas and sweat lodges in more than 25 år.Og have very close touch with my Mexican teacher champion.
I think the sweat lodge ceremony is an equally old traditision in Lapland as it is in usa and do not believe that natives have a patent on it.
If you look at our www.kan you see we only work against Donati board and that all we had to get into profits, we continue to benefit formål.Vi gave 2000 dollars to Ben Carnes place so they could keep it to dance the sun dance on .
Light and Love: O)
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: educatedindian on April 09, 2010, 05:14:33 pm
They've sent me email as well. Basically they claim there was a pre pagan tradition in both Denmark and worldwide that somehow is identical to what Ybarra teaches.

Their first letter.

---------------
 We do not wish to dispute but please post this letter in your “research needed” section of the NAFPS forum:
 
It´s with sadness in our hearts that we read the things written about Hector Ybarra and his second invitation to come to our community in Denmark. We do not recognize the Hector Ybarra described in this discussion.

We experience him as a hard working, honest and impeccable Native American very true to his culture and tradition.

We appreciate this cultural exchange with him as we need help to reconnect  to our spiritual roots.

It´s important for us to stress that the 1000 Danish crowns (about 175 US Dollars) are only used to cover the expenses for the weekend, as there are transport & flight tickets for 3 people and all the participants get food, bedding and bathing facilities.

Hector Ybarra only works on donation basis here, as mentioned in the invitation.

We only invite those people to the ceremonies who we know have the right intention to participate. We do not advertise at all.

It surprises us that we haven´t been contacted, as this website´s section is called research needed. We are very willing to elaborate on our experience of Hector Ybarra´s work but not publicly.

May the Great Spirit decide what´s right,
Frank Hansen, Hanne Jørgensen, Tom Frank Van Willigen, Rikke Agersted and Jasmin Olsen

------------

My answer:

Hello,
Thank you. We appreciate all information which could help clear this matter up.
 
May I ask how you first came in contact with him?
 
May I also ask why a Danish group would believe an Apache/Yaqui NAC roadman could help them "connect to their roots"?
 
There are no similarities between Native traditions and European pagan beliefs, except extremely broad ones. It's about like trying to learn about Judaism by going to a Buddhist monk.
Al Carroll (moderator)

---------------

Their response:

Hello
We came to know Hector Ybarra last year. He was introduced to us by Quetzal Tzab, who has invited him to Europe. Quetzal is an organizer in the Ingeginous movement Europe.
 
Hector shared his stories with a large group of children here in Denmark. He drummed, sang, and played his flute and the kids had a wonderful time as they learned that the Native Indian do exist.

Before pagan religion was around in Europe there used to be a more elemental, mother earth orientated tradition, which was very similar to your native traditions. It´s those roots we wish to reconnect to.

We want to say that from our experience, both with Hector, and this sight, it would only be right for you to call and know Hector for yourself, ask him about how he came to Europe. He does not work with a computer, and we feel it is unfair that he is not being allowed to speak for himself on this matter.

Frank Hansen, Hanne Jørgensen, Tom Frank Van Willigen, Rikke Agersted and Jasmin Olsen

----------------

A second response one of them sent:

Hi Al.

I would like to answer your email to Hanne Jørgensen, since my part in the invitation of Hector Ybarra has also been questioned in the discussion.

I’m only speaking for myself in this answer and not for the group of coordinators.

First of all I would like to express the sadness I feel...[followed by long series of attacks on NAFPS, accusing us of "hate" etc, the usual cliches.]

I will gladly speak the truth of my heart answering your question about how Hector can help the danes finding back to their spirtual rooths by bringing his traditions.

In Denmark and most of Europe we have lost the connection to our spiritual rooths. Materialism and religion took over instead but an awakening is happening and has been happening for quite some years now. Accordng to the old inca prophecies the world will turn upside down with turmoil but also opportunities in 2012 and the world is preparing itself for these energetic shifts right now.

I myself has been trained by excellent peruvian shamans for 8 years. They taught me the ways of the heart and to walk with light and beauty. Still learning as most people on this planet.

The way I see the modern Europe or the Western world in general is, that we have created big imbalances because of greed, materialism, religious intolerance and fear. And the result has been a cultural soul loss and suffering. People start seeking their spiritual rooths but the old ways have been forgotten and therefore we seek the spiritual traditions in other cultures to reconnect to the spiritual energy in our souls.

We are not indians, aboriginals, sibirians or anything else. But we can help building bridges and share the knowledge and wisdom we all have. In Europe we have been seeking for many years and have been influenced by cultures and spirtual traditions all over the world. My experience is that we practice our spiritual ways with a great focus on the heart energies. Of love, compassion, emphaty and connections to Mother Earth as with the great Spirit.

By learning from my peruvian masters and Hector I reconnect to the ancient wisdom from my land because the energetic vibrations are still here but I have had to find some tools to tune into the energy. And yet it is not the old wisdom as it was practised thousands of years ago but it appears in a new form mixing with the wisdom and traditions from all over the world.

I have been taught that the incan prophecies talk about this exact thing and therefore South American healers and shamans begun many years ago to share their traditions with western people. They realized that that was the only way to save their traditions in a modern world. Changes was needed and therefore it was time to build bridges instead of walls. I acknowledge their wisdom and that has been my motivation to continue learning and searching for the old wisdom.

Learning from Hector Ybarra has nothing to do about going to a Buddhist monk to learn about Judaism. It’s like taking a homeopathic remedy to heal something physical that has become imbalanced. By taking the remedy it activates the healing forces of the body to regenerate itself. That’s what Hectors’ teaching do for us spiritually in Denmark and that is the way we try to build bridges between cultures here.

I pray for more enlighetened insight to end this delicate situation.

Yours sincerly

Rikke Agersted
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: educatedindian on April 09, 2010, 05:38:34 pm
This was my reply to the last letter:

Hello,
 
I published the letter. It has long been the belief of us at NAFPS that more discussion is better, not less, and certainly not hiding these matters or absolutely refusing to answer them as the Ybarras are now doing.
 
First, I will ignore the long series of personal attacks, false insinuations, and character assassinations in your letter. We have seen them many times before as defenses when someone has been caught doing wrong, and know enough to not pay them any attention. We know that such tactics are also often then taught to their followers.
 
I can also ignore them because I truly feel for your group. Your group and yourself in particular have been lied to or taken advantage of in numerous ways.
 
 In some ways you bear some of the responsiblity yourselves. Some of the ideas you believe are so bizarre and ludicrous I wonder how it is possible for anyone to take them seriously.
 
Do you seriously claim there was a "pre pagan" belief system or tradition that is somehow similar to the Native American Church?
 
That is simply not true. The NAC is a *Christian* church, first and foremost.
 
Ybarra's ancestry may be Apache and Yaqui, but what the NAC teaches is not, though it does mix in some older beliefs.
 
His teacher was not of his people anyway, but was Navajo. While Apache and Navajo beliefs have some things in common, Yaqui belief is entirely different. And as I said before, the NAC is even more different.
 
To imagine they have anything in common with any tradition in Europe, except Christianity, is false and without any proof. If someone has taught you differently, they are saying so contrary to all evidence and every one of these Native traditions.
 
Another way you have been taken advantage of is by these so called Peruvian shamans. Natives generally don't use the term shaman, and no true Native tradition either seeks nor wants "converts". Only New Age imposters seek out outsiders.
 
As a general rule of thumb, those who take advantage of European "spiritual tourists" such as yourself are generally mestizos, not Indians, or are curanderos (commercial healers for money, who also mix in Christian beliefs as well) rather than the traditional healers. Some are outright con artists, though given the poverty of the region, it is harder to blame them.
 
The simple fact that they call themselves "Incan" should have been your first clue they were not what they claim to be, since the Incans have been gone since the Spaniards broke up their empire. Instead, local Indians call themselves Aymara, Quechua, etc, or by their village.
 
The so called Inca prophecy you were taught is entirely false and incredibly confused.
 
First of all, it is the MAYANS, not the Incas, who supposedly had a prophecy about 2012. And even that supposed prophecy is not true, as Mayan leaders have been repeatedly saying.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6519923/Ignore-the-movie-2012-will-not-be-the-end-of-world-say-Mayans.html
 
And again, there are no "Incas" anymore, just con artists claiming to be them who make up a phony prophecy to have an excuse to take money from naive Europeans and white Americans who don't know any better.
 
For all of this, you have my sympathy. I don't doubt your search for spiritual meaning is genuine. I just hope you learn to tell true from false better.
 
The Ybarras may have valuable things for you to learn...if you want to learn Christian values that is. Again, that is what the NAC is, a Christian church. No doubt they can also teach about American Indian values. Nothing wrong with learning either of them.
 
But if you imagine their ceremonies will somehow connect you to a mythical "pre pagan" tradition of Europe, there's just no chance of that. Look within your own pagan traditions. (The real ones, that is. Sadly, there are many false versions of European pagan traditions out there.)
 
Outside of basic ethics and a tribal worldview, Native traditions can't help you in the manner you hope.
 
All of this is still basically a side issue to what began this topic though. And that is simple enough:

Native people believe it is wrong to practice Native traditions outside of their traditional context. What the Ybarras do in Denmark is considered wrong by nearly all Native people. If you choose to invite him and pay for him to come (even if he is not making a profit) you would be going against the values of nearly all Natives.
 
I pray you think on these matters and search your heart.
I also pray you now know better than to throw away your money and time on "Peruvian shamans" as a spiritual tourist.
Al Carroll
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on April 09, 2010, 05:55:33 pm
Received a second e-mail this morning.


Quote
From:  Hanne Jørgensen (denandenvirkelighed@live.dk)  
Sent: Fri 4/09/10 8:51 AM
To:  bls926@msn.com
Character set:   Auto Select   Learn more  

Hello
I would just note that I use google translation, and therefore some misunderstandings in the previous message.
We accept only donasion here and have no prices.
mail has been sent from my email address, and not from the other reality --- and is completely my own opinion.
It is also my mistake in 2000 dollars --- it was 1ooo U.S. D
Frank E Hansen: O)


Edit to add: Character set:   Auto Select   Learn more lets you select what language you want to read the e-mail in. Actually has a drop down bar. Pretty cool. I've never seen that feature before.

I'm glad he cleared up some of the things he said in his first e-mail. I wasn't sure of some of it. Now wondering what he means by "mail has been sent from my email address, and not from the other reality --- and is completely my own opinion". This one is signed Frank E Hansen. Why does the e-mail address show Hanne Jørgensen?

Oh snap! Just remembered Hanne & Frank have the website promoting Hector Ybarra, their "recident medicine man".
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Freija on April 09, 2010, 07:37:13 pm
 

Quote
From:  Hanne Jørgensen (denandenvirkelighed@live.dk)  
Sent: Tue 4/06/10 11:41 AM
To:  bls926@msn.com

You ask whether I know about the case in Sedora - And of course I do det.Og I know it is not something to joke about.
I can tell you that I have led Lapp saunas and sweat lodges in more than 25 år.Og have very close touch with my Mexican teacher champion.

Calling Sami people "Lapps" is roughly like calling Native Americans "Redskins".
Every single Sami I know would find it very disrespectful and strongly object to that word.
It just seemed strange that such a word would be used by someone who is running Sami sweats. (Of which I´ve never heard of)
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on April 10, 2010, 05:23:32 pm
Quoting a couple messages Al received, only those parts pertaining to Quetzal Tzab. These two statements seem contradictory.

Kelsie says Tzab is posting anonymously in this thread. Which of these posts does she think Tzab made? No one has commented favorably about Hector Ybarra. People have either asked questions about what he is doing in Europe or have spoken out negatively.
. . .
She also claims that Queztal Tzab is now posting on this thread but is not identifying himself. I had to do a search. QT is mentioned here in this thread as someone who held a ceremony with Bennie Lebeau.

. . .


and


. . .
Their response:

Hello
We came to know Hector Ybarra last year. He was introduced to us by Quetzal Tzab, who has invited him to Europe. Quetzal is an organizer in the Ingeginous movement Europe.

. . .

Frank Hansen, Hanne Jørgensen, Tom Frank Van Willigen, Rikke Agersted and Jasmin Olsen

. . .

Quetzal Tzab is the person who arranged these trips to Europe. That would make it appear that Tzab and Ybarra are friends, or at least have a working relationship.


So, has something happened that would change this? Why would Tzab arrange the trip to Denmark and then post negatively about Ybarra?

Kelsie, could you clear this up for us?
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on April 10, 2010, 06:12:42 pm

. . .
We want to say that from our experience, both with Hector, and this sight, it would only be right for you to call and know Hector for yourself, ask him about how he came to Europe. He does not work with a computer, and we feel it is unfair that he is not being allowed to speak for himself on this matter.

Frank Hansen, Hanne Jørgensen, Tom Frank Van Willigen, Rikke Agersted and Jasmin Olsen
. . .


Hector may not work with a computer, but Kelsie does. They've been invited to join in this discussion. For whatever reason, they've chosen not to participate.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: educatedindian on April 10, 2010, 07:25:14 pm
 
Quote
Quetzal Tzab is the person who arranged these trips to Europe. That would make it appear that Tzab and Ybarra are friends, or at least have a working relationship.

So, has something happened that would change this? Why would Tzab arrange the trip to Denmark and then post negatively about Ybarra?


Ms Ybarra sent me a message (one of the ones she refuses to allow to be posted) where she said (paraphrasing) that we needed to speak on the phone so her husband could fully explain the relationship between them and Tzab. This struck me as pretty strange, since no one had said much about Tzab except point out what we had about him in another thread.

That was followed by the later message where they both absolutely refused to say anything at all about anything in this thread. I don't think the second message was specific to anything about Tzab, perhaps only as part of the whole discussion. But she seems to be disproportionately worried about this one thing.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Mizzlilly on April 11, 2010, 01:19:56 am
Hallo and regards to everybody here.
I have been following this writing on the matter of Hector, he never called him self Little wolf, just for the recort.  :D What other people wrote in mails or on flyers an so on, this is not his words and writing.
It is true that Hector dont work whit computer, and sometimes i think it is dangerus that the computer has so much power, becoause you dont have the same contact true the computer ads if you talk whit people life. When you talk whit people in life you se there bodylangues, and mimik and then it is possibul to tell if a person is a liar or not in many cases. Just my eksperiense no orfence there.
I se that information is twisted I am sorry to say  :(, and the langues barriare is also a fact.
Just the eksampel that is comented on sames,  ??? i beleave was wroted by a Danish person like my self.
You must know that English is not our langues, sorry that my spelling is so bad. :)
I must say that Hector never ask for enything on his visit here, and for my self I se him ads a human bean whit some visdom, that make me recall that we have our own medicine here.
How and why is not for me to ansher her on this site, it just dont belong here, but in my heart it will stay. I need to say this.
If nobody hear Hector out and meat him on the request to contact him by telephone or maby visit, how serius is this site then? Then it would be terms only for those that has the computer skils.
And nobody than him self can talk for him in fact.
 For your info. It it our comunity that race money to feed people, pay for transport, wood and so on. It is not the healing or stories, Or spirit work, that people race money for. The spiritsworld dont work that way we do know that. NOT stupid thanks, dont take me wrong here. ;) Every body need to eat, and non of us like to stay in a weekend hungry. Food here is pretty ekspensive. taxes are very high in our contry, we dont ekspect somebody to have used there time here and then put finance problem on top of them, that is why we race money to pay for flight also, for the people that we want to come visiting.
Hector I think can tell you how he came to visit Denmark first time, ask him and I think that would be the most responsibull thing to do in my orpinion. All here on this site otherwise I would se like gossip and very evel towards people, that do have there heart the right place and work from it. If you only get your information sekund hand. All what is in writing here, is to read by every body, it would be not nice to destroy somebodys name,that dont deserve it. I do beleave there is laws asgainst that.
"Go to the head not the buttom, danish way of speeaking" I sencerely hope that you will find out the true story and get it right. No matter what is it very true that many is charlatans and want to make a buck on naiv people, problem all over the world. But dont shoot blindly you risk to hit somebody that dont deserve it.


Regards from Mizzlilly/ and whit love and light


Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on April 11, 2010, 02:00:27 am
Mizzlilly, I'm not sure why y'all insist that Hector Ybarra doesn't use a computer. Even if that were true, his wife does. She is more than capable of joining this forum and giving their side of things. Do not think for one minute that we have not given them a chance to speak. They have both been invited.



Edit to add: If Hector feels more comfortable discussing this over the phone, I'm willing to call him. I don't have his phone number though.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Mizzlilly on April 11, 2010, 07:30:22 am
Dear bls926

Many people still dont use computer  ;), Not easy for me to understand either but reality, many of our own elders here and even young people dont use this media sorry to say. It takes time to lern, like everything else I guess. :) Do every body know computer among the people you know? :)
I find that there is many levels of how much one person knows abaut how to use the computer.
I know that Hectors wife use the computer, but she is not Hector right?
I am pretty sure that if you contact Hector pr email and get telephonenumber you will find salution peacefully to clear out the situasion for the higher best.  :) Something is rotten some where, but where the smell is comming from, you need to find out.

Love and light from my heart  :) pray that the creator protect you, and alow you to find the trued.

Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: wolfhawaii on April 11, 2010, 05:56:59 pm
yeah, i smell something....something fishy in Denmark....maybe admin can check some IP addresses.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Mizzlilly on April 11, 2010, 09:15:32 pm
yeah, i smell something....something fishy in Denmark....maybe admin can check some IP addresses.

Dear wolfhawaii

Not nesesery to be root, :) but if you need to go on to that level be my gueest.
You are so welcome.
What is your real name for a start?
And why did YOU not put a picture on to your profil?
What is it YOU want to hide ?
You can ask me the same Qustion what do you think I will tell you? I dont even think i need to go further whit this, my inergi is well needed else where doing good things :-* :)
Have a nice day and remember to love your self.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: educatedindian on April 11, 2010, 09:56:18 pm
1...for my self I se him ads a human bean whit some visdom, that make me recall that we have our own medicine here.

2. If nobody hear Hector out and meat him on the request to contact him by telephone or maby visit, how serius is this site then?

3. All here on this site otherwise I would se like gossip and very evel towards people, that do have there heart the right place and work from it. If you only get your information sekund hand.

4. All what is in writing here, is to read by every body, it would be not nice to destroy somebodys name,that dont deserve it. I do beleave there is laws asgainst that.

5. Regards from Mizzlilly/ and whit love and light


1. That's the central problem right there. Some people in Denmark are kidding themselves that an NAC roadman somehow can teach them about an imaginary pre pagan tradition of theirs.

2. Where did you get this bizarre idea that we have money to throw away? This is an all volunteer site. You seriously expect us to not only phone internationally on every case we look into, but even go visit in person?

Obviously you did not bother to read this thread before you came in and started making careless accusations. Ybarra is the one who first asked us to call him, then withdrew that offer and refuses to speak.

3. Let's see, you accuse us of gossip and even being "evil"?

But most of the information we've gotten is firsthand. It comes from the Ybarras, or the NAC. Or guess what? From your group.

It does seem very contradictory and hypocritical. You come in, make accusations without proof, refuse to read what's right in front of you, twist what we say and what we've done...

...and then mix these ugly tactics with very insincere "sweetness and light" messages.

I can't say I'm surprised, because we've seen these practices before from those who know they are doing wrong, and are trying to cover that up when they get caught.

4. There it is again. Very unsubtle legal threats side by side with the "I'm so spiritual" pose.

5. Followed by yet another sweetness and light message.

But then you follow that up with several messages which are close to trolling, and include some personal attacks and insinuations against our members.

Again, I can't say any of us are surprised. But it doesn't get us anywhere.

Unless you can get your own leaders to be honest, the only thing your trolling does is make you look petty, vindictive, and insincere.

Also, any more personal attacks upon our members will now be deleted. Stay on topic, read what we say before you make any more false accusations. We do want to find out what's happened. But your attacks don't do anyone any good.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Mizzlilly on April 12, 2010, 12:25:28 pm
 You educated indian
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"1. That's the central problem right there. Some people in Denmark are kidding themselves that an NAC roadman somehow can teach them about an imaginary pre pagan tradition of theirs."

Where did you get the idea that Hector is teching abaut imaginary pre pagan traditions ?
And what makes you think that? I dont se eny writing or dokument eny where on this site where this is a fact.
And I never reseave eny teching abaut that, maby I sleeped in the classroom that day ???


"2. Where did you get this bizarre idea that we have money to throw away? This is an all volunteer site. You seriously expect us to not only phone internationally on every case we look into, but even go visit in person?"

Simpel, when you write abaut other people that can destroy them, and hide behind profils on a website and still claim to be serius an etic, it would prove your entension by giving people fair chance on there terms to explane them self . And you do take donations, that is the first thing I notise here.
 
Criminal law defines two forms of defamation : First "insulting words or acts" also known contempt expressions. , "charges" that will say insulting accusations.
The old wording of the Penal Code shall be construed in accordance with Human Rights Court. 
The distinction between value judgments and factual allegations.

Factual assertions presented as facts, and here required documentation.
The specific context determines whether an utterance most appear as a factual reality or most resembles an opinion or evaluation.  I beleave this goes for USA also. ;)

I would be very carefull and in these matters if it was me invastigating somebody.

People getting angry because they have personal orpinions abaut what is right and wrong, is not documentation at all, that Hector should be selling out cermonies, whis is not the case.
That make me wonder if there is other things going on among your self.
Remarks abaut what he is doing helping whites when indians are suffering so bad, that it is not at all ok to alow white to eny cermoni at all. These are the things i se here, at this moment.
Objektiv people is among you also. Get it right and this is the last i write here in this tread because i se fighting and behavier that is under your suposed level and inbaressing to it is.
The idea of trying to find and warn people agains Frauds is not bad, but I question the way it is don.
Special remarks like "and then mix these ugly tactics with very insincere "sweetness and light"
Is in my book not very serius or nice behavier, since you dont know me at all.
I se a big problem among you and this has nothing to do whit me or whites in europe, must say if Hector dont want to talk whit you I can fully understand this, the jugdement and good behavier is missing here.
Maby you dont agre whit this but then again, all of us has the right to come op whit our opinion.

I truly hope you will find your path in light and love for all your relations.





 
 

 
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: educatedindian on April 12, 2010, 06:27:18 pm
You educated indian

1. Where did you get the idea that Hector is teching abaut imaginary pre pagan traditions ?
And what makes you think that? I dont se eny writing or dokument eny where on this site where this is a fact.
And I never reseave eny teching abaut that, maby I sleeped in the classroom that day ???


2...it would prove your entension by giving people fair chance on there terms to explane them self .
 
3. [Long looooong and extremely confused rant about the law]

I would be very carefull and in these matters if it was me invastigating somebody.

4. That make me wonder if there is other things going on among your self.
5. Get it right
6. and this is the last i write here in this tread
7. because i se fighting and behavier that is under your suposed level and inbaressing to it is.
8. Is in my book not very serius or nice behavier, since you dont know me at all.
9. I se a big problem among you
10. the jugdement and good behavier is missing here.

11. I truly hope you will find your path in light and love for all your relations.


Thanks for being unintentionally funny, and for proving right everything I just said. You really should try reading before making yourself look foolish
repeatedly.

1. That's been said several times in here, by your own group.

2. We gave them the chance, and they turned in down, remember? And later on, within the same post, you even admit you knew this.

3. There's yet another empty threat to go to the law again.

4, 5, 7, 8, 9, and 10. There's half a dozen insults and unprovoked attacks, yet again.

6. Do you promise? Because all your trolling in here is doing is showing everyone your lack of maturity.

More seriously, your trolling is just a cheap attempt to distract and for you and the Ybarras to avoid answering the central question. Why the heck would an American Indian who is Christian/NAC go to help silly New Age Danish people "find their roots"?

11. Followed by yet another insincere and silly "sweetness and light" comment. We are just fine. Your empty sanctimony is wasted, obnoxious, and not believable.

You commented "we don't know you" but we do. We see self deluded people such as yourself all the time. And your own websites show you to be even worse in these delusions than we've seen in here.

Mz Lilly's own New Age sites show quite a lot of bizarre misunderstandings of Native people. A lot of Franklin Mint images and silly romanticism and attempts to remake Indians into fantasy creatures who do little but pose with silver wolves., crystals, and pentacles. Most of it is silly, but some of it is offensive, and the sheer level of it borders on racist cartoons.
http://www.mizzlilly.dk/psp/native/native.html
http://www.mizzlilly.dk/psp/native/nativeimage.html
http://www.mizzlilly.dk/psp/native/nativeimage1.html

Even stranger is the way you twist the story of one you call Lyle Medicine Wolf. I don't see any sign of who he actually might be, but supposedly he's an Ojibwe who claims to have visions of a Cree medicine man who also believes in the phony "rainbow warriors" New Age false prophecy. What I suspect is that, like Ybarra, you simply twisted what you heard from him to fit what you wanted to believe.

And that may be yet another part of all of this. The Ybarras either don't know or don't care that NAC traditions are being twisted or misportrayed or misunderstood by some very wacky New Age Danes.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on April 13, 2010, 12:20:50 am
I received a pm from Mizzlilly. She stated that she considered it for me only, so I will not post her message. Below is my response to her.


Quote
« Sent to: Mizzlilly on: Today at 07:17:01 PM »  

Mizz Lilly

I'm sorry you feel that way about NAFPS. Believe me, this is not a hateful place. We have a difficult job to do and we're doing it to the best of our ability.

There are many people all over the world who think they can appropriate Native American traditions and spirituality and use them as they wish. This is wrong. Stealing from another culture is never right. Our ancestors sacrificed with their lives and freedom to protect their way of life. You cannot take it; you cannot buy it. For you or anyone else to think they can conduct a Lakota sweat lodge or a Cherokee stomp dance is wrong. To think you can charge money, adds insult to injury. These ceremonies do not belong to you. They never have and they never will, no matter how many teachers you have or how much money you pay. If you find that harsh, so be it. It is what it is.

Yes, we do want information about Hector Ybarra and what he is doing in Europe. He has been invited to join this forum and explain. He chooses not to do that. Kelsie has written to Al, but refuses to permit him to post her e-mails. If they don't want to share their side of things, that's their prerogative. No one here is forcing them. However, the research will continue with or without their input.

It's sad that so many in Europe cannot learn the traditions of their own ancestors and feel the need to steal from the First Nations.

Bonnie



Edited to correct a typo/misspelled word in my opening. (used form instead of from)
Damn OCD.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on April 18, 2010, 05:45:09 pm
I received another pm from Mizzlilly; more of the same. I didn't reply to the second one, since the first pm I sent her didn't have any effect. I see she's no longer a member here.

I've been exchanging e-mails with another person associated with Hector Ybarra. We'll see what comes from that.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: Walks on April 30, 2010, 07:21:45 pm
I've met Hector. I gave Ben Carnes a ride to the Denver area home of him back in March of '08.

Although I didn't really get to know him or Kelsey with the short visit I made, I did hear Ben and Cat speak alot about him.

I really don't have an opinion of him per-say, I did decline an invitation to attend a NAC meeting he was to lead.

I didn't attend because I have no real interest in that church.

I wont claim to be very informed on NAC however it is my understanding that while the founding principals of the church did include some teachings of jesus, some now include these teachings and some do not.

As far as relevancy to this forum of what Hector is accused of I have the following thoughts.

One, it has been said here that NAC is based on christianity. It has also been said that christians tend to want to spread the "gospel".
So, as far as Hectors trip to Europe....so what?

The more appropriate complaint being that he was charging for his teachings,(isn't that what christians do?) and representing them as traditional Native Spirituality. Ok, fair enough, I can see the issue here, however, at what point in time, does any "ceremony" become what we call traditional?

I have been told off forum, that Hector also is accused of preforming a sweat. Many nations worldwide have utilized sweats nearly forever, so that in it's self shouldnt be cause for undue alarm.

It was also disclosed to me that the ceremony that Hector preformed was represented as an authentic Lakota sweat.......now we have huge issues.

So, is what I have been told a proven fact, or is it still a he said, she said situation?
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on June 10, 2010, 02:04:09 am
Hector, Kelsie, and Sunka were in Denmark during May 2010.


Den Anden Virkelighed
V. Hanne Jørgensen & Frank Hansen

http://www.denandenvirkelighed.dk/blok/index.php

April 4, 2010
Quote
April month was kicked off with a week of work at this place. Many great people have put their effort and energy in this place, so it could be really nice and it has indeed. Thanks to you who came and helped. We had never done it without you.

The photos, taken during the process lies in the picture gallery under “Seen and done.” Here you can get an insight into what happened here on the spot. Look forward to come and experience it.

We have decided that it is everyone’s project to keep the land beautiful and that meens that when you come here, you are free to see if there is anything you can do to keep it.

This month, I have women’s group 2 times. This concludes the first womancircle. New women’s group starts the 12th June. Sign up quickly, if you’re interested. I put all the dates of the course into the calendar.

Saturday 17th April at. 10-17 Mona Lisa comes again with her wonderful power jewelry and tarot cards. Do you want a reading, please let me know quickly.

Saturday the 17th we have the drumming evening at 7 pm. The place is filled with new energy, so it will be really power full. Notify me if you are coming, so I know how many buns I have to bake.

At the end of the month comes our Indian family. We are really looking foreward to this. We will do healings, sweat lodge, and various workshops while they are here. We are so lucky to have them here a whole month, so there can certainly be a lot of exciting things to experience.

Remember that we are working only for donations and so does our Indian family as well.


Hugs and Light

Hanne

May 10, 2010
Quote
Saturday the 15th of May Hector wants to run a Sweat. Come and participate in a sweat run by a great medicinman.

The rules: bring changing clothes (you have to wear clothes in the sweat), towels, and a dish to share afterwards. Please remember it is by donations.

June 2, 2010
Quote
Finally it seems that the summer comes. May has been realy cold and wet, and certainly not the best weather for our activities here.We have had the great pleasure to have Hector, Kelsie and Sunka here in May. It’s been fantastic lovely and instructive for us and many others.Our outdoor kitchen works perfectly, making it much easier to have activities here. The outdoor toilet also acts as it should. The last weekend  we also installed an outdoor shower. Now does it all work as it should. Thanks to all the wonderful people who helped us with the hard work.Here in June I start a new women’s group. The dates are on the calendar. Join if you want to work with yourself and find your inner goddess.Saturday 19th June, we celebrate the solstice and have the drum group. We anticipate that we will meet at 3 o’clock and we start the grill. Bring food that can be placed on the grill. After eating, we will drum and sing as usual. We finish as usual with coffee and freshly baked buns. We’d love to have your registration for this event. Remember we have no prices, but happily accept donations.
Do you want to come and give us a hand with the land, you are very welcome. Weeds are growing fast now and we can easily use a few extra hands to help us with that.Currently we are trying to put a program up for the autumn. Do you have any ideas for what should be done here at the place, feel free to let us know.Hugs and LightHanne


(I bolded references to Hector et al)

Notice there are no prices listed for any of these events; it's all about donations now.
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: bls926 on June 12, 2010, 04:52:25 pm
Kathryn, have you had anymore news from Europe? Received any recent e-mails?

This thread seems to have experienced a premature death.


Edit to add: Al, have you heard anymore from Kelsie or the folks in Denmark?
Title: Re: Hector Ybarra aka "Hector Little Wolf"
Post by: YouKnowNot on February 13, 2011, 09:18:39 am
Hello all.
I live in Denver Metro area, and I do know of Hector in passing a few times. I am weary of negative words of others, and border line slander. However, I have seen him be disrespectful to those older than he, to others, and even me. I hope this will be able to help here . . . ESPECIALLY those that are seeking something . . . a spiritual void to fill. WATCH OUT for this guy. As far as Im concerned, he is a FRAUD.

He is a part of the NAC, and was taught by a Navajo/Dine man (who I know as well). He does run "Lakota" style "sweats", and also the "Temescal"/"Aztec" style "sweat" (these are coed sweats by the way). He runs an "Aztec" dance troupe. AND, he has made claim to be "acting medicine man for the Sundance" somewhere, pointing north. He said this to me personally. This is what he IS doing. He is arrogant to say the least.

I had to make some phone calls and even meet with some people in the area about him. There are quite a few people that have warned him NOT to go to Denmark and do this. There has been reports of Hector augmenting the Lakota style sweat lodges, and it is possible that he may be talked to by for real, bonafide, spiritual leaders . . . as there are some, like Dave Swallow, Looking Horse, and many others that are not happy with this in general. Since he has built a name for himself, him, and several others are on the list.

His lack of respect, in general, and especially of his disrespect of older folks, especially for his NAC mentor/teacher (I saw/heard firsthand) is indicative of him NOT being "the real deal" . . . and if these people that are teaching are "real", then I am wondering WHY he is being taught in the first place. Something is all around wrong with this picture, and is wide spread in my area. I was always told that if you are chosen to be handed down knowledge, that the child or even middle aged person is "looked" into to see if they can "carry" it on for the people in a good way.

I know an older man that has no one to pass down what he knows because, for one, they dont speak the language, two, they dont wanna know, three, HE DOESN'T BRAG or ADVERTISE what he knows, does, or can do. Some things may die with him, like, somethings that his father and grandpa knew died with them. They were real strict about who to pass it down to . . . mostly basic stuff; the calling - do they behave well? - do they help people, especially elders? - do they fight with people, verbally or physically? - and so on.

Hector does not fit the bill to be a ceremonial leader, nor a "medicine man". Most of the people that come into his circle are those that are lost, spiritual misguided, and are being taken on a dangerous road. I am deeply concerned. On one level; I am wondering what he is actually TEACHING through his behaviors, especially to younger folk that are searching (as he is very EAGER to train/teach people that approach him); teaching it's OK to be disrespectful to people - that its OK to augment ceremonies.

On another, I am concerned on a SPIRITUAL level. What else is REALLY going on . . . things we cant see . . . things that will creep up on us later. I have warned people in the area, and have seen some circles of friends and families be turned upside -down. Not saying I have a gift . .. I was professing the OBVIOUS. I've learned the hard way, and have been told sever times; "you dont wanna play around with this spirit stuff . . . it can get dangerous. For you, or for those around you".

Anyhow, I could go on in great length and tell detailed stories of Hector . . . trust me . . . he has created uproars in the scenes around here. We all have to watch out for what we believe in. Is it delusional, or is it based on something more tangible/direct personal experience with The Creator, and can be verified by other REAL spiritual people, and then examples from the people. Even if just a ceremonial leader, and thats all they got - something taught to them by a human. It's still messin with spirits . . . something to think about at least. There's a reason why there are taboos, protocols, and rules for each ceremony, and each tribe has it's own "laws" . . . it gets complicated and time consuming to know all these things, even for one ceremony. But once all thats cleared up and solidified, by those that are urbanized/colonized, then we can move onto the next step . . . getting the help that we actually need, beyond filling voids, or a group to belong to.

Hope this helps, and not trying to step on anyone's toes . . . my toes, and others, have already been stepped on, by people like Hector.