NAFPS Forum

Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: SouthwestSkeptic on December 19, 2008, 02:29:24 am

Title: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: SouthwestSkeptic on December 19, 2008, 02:29:24 am
I live in the capital of weird, so I'm used to seeing a lot of silly things from the lesbians, but this woman's off her gourd. (At least she blinks more than the ones around here)

Canadian-Lesbian comic, Kate Clinton is trying to round up other Lesbians to "Sage" the white house because she thinks they can rid it of the "evil spirits" left over from Dubya.


This was posted on DDR

--------------------------------------------------quote-----------------------------------------------

Kate Clinton,  a white lesbian comedian,  thinks our religion is fodder for her comedy.
 
From her website:

http://www.kateclinton.com

"Kate Clinton has a perfect event coming up on January 19th.
It’s to Sage the White House after Bush’s 8 years of ruinous
residency. Just as the priests & shamans were called in to sage
Machu Picchu after George Bush's ten minute “So You Think
You Can Dance??? visit to the ruins, she says, “Let's banish those
evil spirits the night before the Inauguration of Barack Obama.???
In our exclusive audio-interview @ OUTTAKE VOICES ™
Kate gives her honest & hilarious opinions of the state of our
country & the future of our LGBT community. Check it OUT...:)
View Our Short Trailer on Gay Marriage"


"The list is growing, are you joining in on this adventure? Send an email to kate@kateclinton.com and in the subject line write: I'm In! to join our SAGE THE WHITE HOUSE mailing list. Please include your name, email, and snail mail address.

Just as the priests and shamans were called in to sage Machu Picchu after George Bush's ten minute So You Think You Can Dance visit to the ruins, it is time to Sage the White House after George's eight years of ruinous residency. Let's banish those evil spirits the night before the Inauguration of Barack Hussein Obama.

Watch for more details of our spontaneous, ingenious spectacle. Sage the White House! Tell your friends."

She’s put up a Youtube video:

Sage the White House

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAFZt0cietg
 
In the YouTube video, Ms. Clinton claims that she plans to “sage the area to get out the bad spirits.??? She advises her audience that you can get it (sage) from your “favorite woo woo lesbian in your community.???

On January 19th, she plans to gather with other fools like herself and “fire up our sage sticks and do some and do some spontanesous chants to get the bad spirits out of the white house.??? She concludes, “We might have some actual shamans there but basically it’s a secular spectacle.??? 

Please visit YouTube and voice your outrage at this misguided cultural appropriation.

----------------------------------end quote -------------------------

I know I'm going to tell all my friends about this one.

Can't imagine the outfits the "woo woo lesbians" will be wearing  for gettin in the good Obama energy.

join YouTube
www.youtube.com
rank low
flag
comment
send an email ...


 :o


Rose

 

Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 19, 2008, 04:48:09 am
In so many ways the newage sector of the Lesbian community (to the extent the Lesbian community even exists any more) is very insular. I think there are women who don't have the slightest idea that this is not a universal practice, or that it would offend anyone. I would expect more awareness... and among the more radical women there is a lot of anti-racist awareness. Sadly, it doesn't seem like Kate is among the more radical women. She doesn't seem to have the slightest idea that this would be offensive. I shudder to think what "shamans" they might have at the event.



I'm thinking of writing Kate about this: kate@kateclinton.com  I don't really know her. I  mean, we've crossed paths at events before, but not in a long time and we were never friends. If they're already invested in doing this, I doubt they will cancel it. I'm thinking that if we could suggest an alternative. What could they do as an alternative that wouldn't be offensive? Maybe they should just pattern it directly on the  humorous "Exorcism and Levitation" that was attempted by hippies and activists at the Pentagon in the sixties. I think they chanted "Out, demon, out!" That was a performance art sort of thing that I don't recall being culturally insensitive. Well, maybe to Catholics...  I don't know; maybe there's no point to trying to talk to her about it. I need to think about this.



OK, this is what I wrote Kate Clinton:

Hi Kate,

Some Native American activists are offended that you want to combine what for them is a sacred religious practice into this performance piece. They feel it is culturally insensitive at best, and racist at worst. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2030.0 Also, check the comments that are coming in on your YouTube page.

Can you possibly re-orient this event a little? Maybe pattern it more on the attempted levitation of the Pentagon in the sixties?

I agree that the White House could use a spiritual cleansing, and I agree that humour is important. But Native folks don't find it funny or healing when white people appropriate their traditions. Could this event proceed with non-Native methods of cleansing?

Sincerely,

- Kathryn
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Laurel on December 19, 2008, 05:55:35 pm
The Yippies exorcising the Pentagon is the first thing that came to my mind too.  I hope Kate will take your advice to heart. 
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Superdog on December 20, 2008, 08:41:05 pm
hmmm....just clicked on the link and it didn't work.  Checked Kate Clinton's youtube profile.  It seems she's removed the video and then reloaded it....probably to remove the comments.

Just fyi it's still playing, but clean of comments.  I almost thought she was gonna do the right thing there.

The new link for the video is here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXKSkZigG6o

Kate posted this on her profile in response to kathryn's comment.
----------------------------------
"Sage the White House

Several Native Americans have told me that they find the plan to Sage the White House a co-optation of a sacred ritual. My intention was not to co-opt but to embrace the optimistic, cleansing spirit of the ritual. I apologize for my white insensitivity.

Since I have often saged a new writing space, or a new office to get rid of the? prior occupants vibe and begin anew, I thought saging would be a good beginning of the huge clean-up effort necessary after eight long years of George Bush.

Mindful of the rich traditions of the people who were here first, we are recalibrating our action and will encourage people to bring more secular symbols of clean-up: brooms, Lysol spray, Shout-it-Out.

Again, my apologies and an invitation to join us all in the clean-up effort. "

----------------------------------------

However, the original video is still playing, unchanged, calling for people to "Sage the White House"

Superdog
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 20, 2008, 10:18:52 pm
Yeah, mixed messages. The original video and text are also still posted on her website, unchanged.

I think far more people will see the unchanged video and webpage than her apology on her YouTube profile. I haven't signed up for her mailing list, but I'd also be curious to see if any of these changes have been sent out to the list.

I encourage people to go back to the video and comment. Commenting has not been turned off, and I was able to leave a comment, rate and flag the video. I also replied to Kate on her profile page, and I encourage others to do so as well.


If the video is moved again, this is the URL for Kate Clinton's YouTube profile: http://www.youtube.com/user/kateclinton


ETA: Kate wrote me back; her reply was the same text she posted on her profile page.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 21, 2008, 03:41:30 am
Sort of OT Tangent here: I've been thinking about her claim that "shamans" in Machu Picchu "saged" after the Bush debacle. I don't know much at all about South American Indigenous traditions, but I have never heard of burning sage as one of them. Does sage even grow down there?

I haven't found much on the Machu Picchu event, but of the stories I have found, not one mentions burning sage:

* http://dreamantilles.blogspot.com/2007/03/guatemala-cleansing-bush.html
* http://www.boston.com/news/odd/articles/2007/03/09/priests_to_purify_site_after_bush_visit/
* http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/03/12/bush.guatemala/index.html
* http://dirtybirdfieldnotes.blogspot.com/search/label/cleanse

Looks like Kate Clinton, or whoever she got her info from, has the mistaken assumption that all Indigenous people burn sage.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: frederica on December 21, 2008, 04:17:08 pm
I'm no expert, but there are many different forms or types of "Sage".  A few Salvia, Veberia, Uncaria. The last is a vine, una de gato, "Cat's Claw".  It's a lowland, bog, rainforest plant in South America, but has been used  in Peru by Tribes for medicinal purposes. I think not everyone "cleans houses" with Sage.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: ska on December 21, 2008, 06:16:42 pm
Good morning, Kathryn,

I find your posts informative and helpful - thanks for the time you give to the work of this site.

It is clear to me that Kate Clinton has little understanding or respect for Indigenous Peoples' unique and varied ceremonial traditions.  Her  suggestion that sage can be obtained from a "favorite woo woo lesbian in your community" shows that she does not believe that Native people should be consulted or even contacted in order to obtain the required "medicine" for this "ceremony".   Where would a "woo woo lesbian" direct a person looking for sage?  Most likely to a New Age herb shop where sage bundles and sticks, and braids of sweet grass are SOLD as "traditional Native medicine".   At the same time that she feigns respect for ceremony, she dismisses spirituality as "woo woo". 

I  have heard  the term "woo woo" being used by individuals who have not been raised in any spiritual tradition.  Their secular upbringing instills a basic mistrust and rejection of spiritual belief.  In the world of post-secondary education, I've met educated people who use the term "woo woo" because they are either hostile to spiritual ways (because of the "rational" beliefs or their "scientific" skepticism) or because they yearn to connect with some form of spirituality but feel embarrassed to admit it.  White privilege (and class privilege) is often part of the equation and, in the spirit of political correctness, the beliefs and practices of "others" are given token acknowledgement, usually in the form of New Age abstractions which, as many of us have found, bear little resemblance to the original.  Instead, New Age formulations tend to offer up watered down pap and use the justification that "we are all the same" to abuse, appropriate, and bastardize traditional knowledge and wisdom and to make it seem as though this wisdom can be carried by anyone, even someone born outside of the tradition. 

New Agers free themselves of the constraints of being accountable to community and kin, meaning they take advantage with no system of checks and balances to stop their egos from running rampant.  People who are raised to respect spiritual traditions will not accept  that unique beliefs and traditions can be merged and melded into a huge glop of shite, but this is the modus operandi of New Agers.  I read a comment on a blog this morning where a woman describes how she uses sage to "cleanse her chakras" and balance her "karma".  Maybe a New Ager can understand this bafflegab.  I cannot make heads or tails of it, but what do I know about chakra-cleansing karma?  I'm only an Indian-born (ie. India) woman who was raised with respect and devotion for Hindu values and beliefs. 

I doubt that Kate Clinton has ever had any discussion with a Native person who speaks their language, grew up in their community, and had a chance to practice their way of life.  I have never heard the term "saging down" in a Native community.  I have come across this term in academic settings and community political events where token acknowledgement is made to Native nations and a "saging down" ceremony is presented as something that is universally used in Native communities, irrespective of the specific beliefs and practices of a Nation's traditions.  Again, I find there is more effort made to be "politically correct" than to actually be respectful of different cultural traditions.  I have also found that, in urban centers, there are Native people who have no knowledge of their traditional ways because of colonial and culturally genocidal policy, yet often these are the people who are being put front and center to represent Native traditions.

I have not found any reference to a "saging down" ceremony at Machu Picchu, but some stories do mention the burning of incense as a form of purification following Bush's visit.  Many cultures around the world burn incense for purification and other purposes, including Catholics.  I think Clinton's reference to "saging down" as a purification ceremony is indicative of the links between Feminism and the New Age and the faux respect that is paid to Native cultures within these circles.   

I see no evidence that Ms. Clinton has any link or connection to any Indigenous community.  And despite the best efforts of several people to try to inform her, she has chosen this opportunity to remain blissfully ignorant of her power to appropriate and confuse.

best, ska




Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 22, 2008, 11:24:16 pm
You know, the night before you posted this, ska, I was discussing just this thing with some friends. Over and over I have seen people have this dual fascination with spirituality combined with their need to keep an ironic distance.

I see this duality as having very little to do with feminism, per se, but everything to do with people who are raised with no sense of meaningful spiritual tradition. It's very much present in intellectual environments - in academia, and among those whose primary identification is with their intellects.

I have known so many people raised without religion (or in a religion they found unsatisfying, stupid or embarrassing) who have expressed interest in having a spiritual practice, yet they feel compelled to simultaneously mock it. Often they don't realize they are mocking. A lot of this impulse comes from people associating religion with ignorance. You also find this in political circles where Marxism is an influence.

At times I've felt like I've treaded a delicate boundary with these things; I think humour is part of spirituality, humility and self-awareness. Look out when someone who thinks they're all spiritual has no sense of humour about themselves. But it's one thing to be self-deprecating, and another entirely to make fun of someone else.

It's also one thing to poke fun at your own culture and community, and a whole other deal to, even unintentionally, mock an oppressed group.

I really think Kate Clinton had no idea going into this that her attitudes or actions were offensive. I don't think she's particularly radical herself, but she's had enough contact with radical feminists - for whom the fight against all oppression is integral to the the fight against oppression of women - that I do believe she is upset to find out that what she's done is racist. The problem as I see it now is what you point out: She's issued a PC apology; she's said the words; but as the video is still up and the comments of Native people are still gone, it rings hollow. I think she needs to post a new video that not only presents the revised plan for the performance piece, but which includes an apology for her earlier statements.

Your analysis of the interconnections and reasons behind the appropriation here are right on, ska. I could quote your whole post, but will just thank you for taking the time to post it. Many well-meaning white people, in the feminist, ecological, hippie, etc communities really have no idea how often they listen to other white people or tokens rather than the voices of the people they steal from. They really believe they are being "respectful" by co-opting and misappropriating, and their own racism makes them relieved when they can find a white person or assimilated token to tell them what they want to hear. Sometimes I lose my patience and don't try to give any of them the benefit of the doubt. But I have to remember that some of them can be reached. Ignorance is curable. So it's a matter of seeing if the person is willing to listen and change.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: SouthwestSkeptic on December 23, 2008, 01:05:30 am
All of those whose comments were deleted got the same response from Kate Clinton. Here it is:

(It was more than several, and many of them had some very good things to say)

"Several Native Americans have told me that they find the plan to Sage the White House a co-optation of a sacred ritual. My intention was not to co-opt but to embrace the optimistic, cleansing spirit of the ritual. I apologize for my white insensitivity.

Since I have often saged a new writing space, or a new office to get rid of the prior occupants vibe and begin anew, I thought saging would be a good beginning of the huge clean-up effort necessary after eight long years of George Bush.

Mindful of the rich traditions of the people who were here first, we are recalibrating our action and will encourage people to bring more secular symbols of clean-up: brooms, Lysol spray, Shout-it-Out.

Again, my apologies and an invitation to join us all in the clean-up effort."

She says she's "recalibrating" her action to include secular cleaning products, but she hasn't answered anyone's question as to whether she will eliminate the use of sage.  She put the video back up after it was removed by YouTube as innapropriate and racist.


Pensmoke posted a pretty funny reply:
"Spontaneous chants? Are you serious? Why don't we all just do some spontaneous white lesbian things? How about we get some ladies to dress in some authentic butch lesbian regalia and play Melissa Etheridge and burn some bras too. If you are going to put on some sideshow you should leave other peoples' culture and practices out of it. "

Aaaaaaaayyyyyeeeeeeeeeee!


She tried to invite her strongest critics to come to D.C. to teach the woo-woos how to do it right.

If you look at Kate's YouTube site, you can see that most of her friends and subscribers are white woman. Very little color.
Lots of cat lovers, though

reddrumroad posted this

Kate! Please do not mistake a few "entitled" white people's complaints - i.e. queen [redacted], as being anything but their own bossy bigotry. They do not speak at the bequest of ANY traditional Native Spiritual leaders - who, last time I listened, have clear voices of their own. Until you hear from someone actually directed by a Native Spiritual Elder (who will then tell you by name who that Elder is, compete with contact information for verification) please take the rantings and ravings of the newly-offended- by-everything-they-themselves-used-to-do with a grain of salt.

She just recently re-posted several comments blaming the censorship on the YouTube technicians -- it could be that YouTube shut down the video because of all the complaints, but let her put it back up again?????

She'll probably loose face big time if she backs out of the event because it's advertised everywhere:

http://www.progressive.org/mag/wxclinton111908.html?disqus_reply=4579587#comment-4579587

http://current.com/items/89645795/saging_the_white_house.htm

http://www.syracuse.com/today/index.ssf/2008/11/cny_teacherturned_humorist_hea.html

http://digest.fanasylum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1644

She's been advertising this full throttle since early November, so I don't see how she can bow out of it gracefully.

I got this from the Iktome crowd today:

UPDATE:

Over this weekend, when Native people on YouTube pointed out how offensive this video was, Ms. Clinton’s response was to immediately censor their responses. She then tried to blame it on the YouTube “technical team??? and went on vacation until January 7, 2009.

Please go to this video and flag it as inappropriate and send comments directly to Ms. Clinton.

She will probably delete all the comments you post on YouTube, so you need to send her a personal message or send a message to:

askk8t@kateclinton.com

or

kate@kateclinton.com

Even though numerous Native YouTube subscribers requested an apology, Ms. Clinton ignored their request.

You can visit her website to see if she apologizes in the coming weeks at:
http://www.kateclinton.com

Several other Native YouTube posters have written to us and asked that fellow activist post this info to as many other newsletters and boards as possible and organize an action to STOP this minstrel show.

To add insult to injury, Ms. Clinton plans to stage her updated secular spectacle on Martin Luther King Junior day.

Perhaps the Obama White House should know how Native America really feels
about cultural misappropriation.

Remember, hand written letters are the most effective, then phone calls, then email.

Mailing Address

The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500


Phone Numbers

Comments: 202-456-1111
Switchboard: 202-456-1414
FAX: 202-456-2461

TTY/TDD

Comments: 202-456-6213
Visitors Office: 202-456-2121
E-Mail
Please send your comments to comments@whitehouse.gov

These are general numbers to the White House.
Obama's website says that the Presidential Transition Team is now
accepting comments at
www.change.gov
There's an email contact form here:

http://change.gov/page/content/contact

He still has an email at his senate address
http://www.senate.gov/


You can write Barack Obama a letter to any of his five senate offices
for issues related to the state of Illinois, or to his campaign
headquarters for issues related to his presidential candidacy.

SENATE OFFICES
Washington D.C. Office
713 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20510

Chicago Office
John C. Kluczynski Federal Office Building
230 South Dearborn St. Suite 3900 (39th floor)
Chicago, Illinois 60604

Springfield Office
607 East Adams Street
Springfield, Illinois 62701

Marion Office
701 North Court Street
Marion, Illinois 62959

Moline Office
1911 52nd Avenue
Moline, Illinois 61265

PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN HEADQUARTERS
Obama for America
P.O. Box 8102
Chicago, IL 60680

Finally, you can pick up the phone and reach any of Barack Obama's
five senate offices or his campaign headquarters in an instant.
SENATE OFFICES
Washington D.C. Office (202) 224-2854
(202) 228-4260 fax
(202) 228-1404 TDD
Chicago Office (312) 886-3506
(312) 886-3514 fax
Toll free: (866) 445-2520 (for IL residents only)

Springfield Office (217) 492-5089
217) 492-5099 fax
Marion Office(618) 997-2402
618) 997-2850 fax

Moline Office (309)736-1217
(309)736-1233 fax

PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN HEADQUARTERS(866) 675-2008

Thanks"



They're looking for people in the D.C. area to stage a counter-protest and I think someone said they were working on a rebuttal video.  Creative ideas are appreciated:  iktome.returns@gmail.com

For a comedian, Clinton doesn't seem to have much of a sense of humor.



Rose






Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" t
Post by: Moma_porcupine on December 23, 2008, 03:35:06 pm
Quote
reddrumroad posted this

Kate! Please do not mistake a few "entitled" white people's complaints - i.e. queen [redacted], as being anything but their own bossy bigotry. They do not speak at the bequest of ANY traditional Native Spiritual leaders - who, last time I listened, have clear voices of their own. Until you hear from someone actually directed by a Native Spiritual Elder (who will then tell you by name who that Elder is, compete with contact information for verification) please take the rantings and ravings of the newly-offended- by-everything-they-themselves-used-to-do with a grain of salt.

Sounds like a spin doctor is out there doing what they do best - creating confusion.
Notice the sneaky little subliminal suggestions being used - that Kathryn is a "Queen" and implying she is assuming a position of power she is not entitled to. Then there is the unsubstantiated allegation that she herself has been involved in cultural appropriation, and the implication that anyone who has made any mistakes in the past now has no right to support  Native people , and even if the information these people now present is correct and it comes from legitimate spokespeople within the Native community - somehow this has now been twisted to being a message that doesn't deserve respect.  Very sleazy tactics there.

When so many Native people and Spiritual leaders have explained and defined what cultural appropriation looks like and have spoken out against this , I can't see what sort of verifiable references anyone needs to repeat this information , except references to the many Elders who originally defined this ,  and said that cultural misappropriation needs to stop.

What seems important is that it is the recognized Spiritual leaders within Native communities who define what is and what isn't cultural appropriation - not who carries this message. It also seems important that it can be verified this definition was put forth by the recognized leaders in Native communities- and not someone who wants to bend things to fit with their own agenda. . But once this has been defined by the people who have a right to define these things, I can't see where support from people like Kathryn is doing any harm . More importantly , without this type of support , I can't see how exploiters who depend on non native audiences can be stopped.

It is after all non native people and PODIAs who are in the communities that enable cultural misappropriation , and it is mainly non native people who are responsible for either encouraging this or discouraging it. 

It sounds like this person is trying to say that non native people can only speak out against exploiters if a named Elder asked them to do this , specifically, in every single situation that comes up . Such nit picky unreasonable demands sounds like it is nothing more than an attempt to bog people down in a lengthly, repetitive , never ending and unnecesary verification process , the sole purpose of which would seem to be to wear people down and to shut people up..

Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: ska on December 23, 2008, 05:02:20 pm
The more I read Ms. Clinton's words on this subject, the more it is clear that she has a lot more connection to New Age feminism than she does to those with a critical perspective or those trying to forge relationships based on friendship, understanding, and decolonization of our Settler consciousness.

What is this "sacred ritual" that has an "optimistic spirit" and allows one to remove the "vibe" of previous persons?  To me, her "saging down" ceremony sounds akin to placing a Glad plug-in in a room to remove malodorous pongs.  Her reference to "evil spirits" makes me cringe and reminds me of racist cartoons that depict "witch doctors".  It all sounds like the creative invention of Settlers peeking from the outside of Native communities and inventing contexts and practices for things that we have no knowledge or little understanding of.  Her proposed "ceremony" is not reminiscent of any use of sage that I have ever had the privilege of experiencing in a Native community.  Nor does it seem like anything that my husband practices on a daily basis as an expression of his Lakota way.

Also, this stuff really gets me:

"They do not speak at the bequest of ANY traditional Native Spiritual leaders - who, last time I listened, have clear voices of their own. Until you hear from someone actually directed by a Native Spiritual Elder (who will then tell you by name who that Elder is, compete with contact information for verification) please take the rantings and ravings of the newly-offended- by-everything-they-themselves-used-to-do with a grain of salt."

Apparently, Settlers can do whatever crap we want and, unless some "Native Spiritual Elder" calls us on it, we can carry on believing that our behavior is just fine.  So now a small number of Elders across this vast continent are supposed to police 350 million plus (Canada/USA) Settlers?  And until they do, we do not have to be accountable for our behavior?  This is logic from the apex of colonial hubris.  I doubt that many traditional people have much time or inclination to scour the Web searching for misguided instances of racism and appropriation. 

It is also a sad reminder that we, as Settlers, have forgotten how to make communities in which we forge ties of respect  and networks of love and caring that allow our Elders to develop the knowledge they need to guide us.  Some Settlers claim to want to listen to Elders, but where are OUR Elders?  And do we know even know how to acknowledge Elders anymore, and do we know how to listen, so that when Elders speak they will be heard?  Where is the responsibility to think for ourselves?  To engage with the vast amount of Native scholarship and publicly shared traditional knowledge (like the Declaration of War on Spiritual Exploitation) that is available to us?  Can "Native Spiritual Elders" ever be free of their imagined responsibility to govern the daily behavior of Settlers? 

Sorry, but I'm tired of this weak, lame posturing because it's disguised as support and respect.  If these folks are so sure that what Ms. Clinton is doing is necessary, why can it not be accomplished without a pseudo-Native intervention? 

All kinds of Settlers claim to respect Arvol Looking Horse and Oren Lyons (I use their names because they are both well-known faith and knowledge keepers in their respective nations).  Well, the words of these men are widely available on the internet, and access to their instructions requires seconds of "googling".  If Ms. Clinton can create a website, surely she can google some logic and direction for herself?

best, ska

Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 23, 2008, 07:36:34 pm
Well, at times I have been asked by traditional people (who aren't on the Internet) to speak out about various issues. Sometimes I've passed on messages, other times I have declined to do so. The times I've chosen to stay silent have either  been because I don't think a white woman will be listened to, or because I don't think it's appropriate for a non-Native to speak to the issue.

However, as already pointed out, basic issues of cultural misappropriation have been addressed by elders so frequently, and for so long, that there is nothing controversial about a person of any race or Nation pointing out to a white person that they need to listen to Native voices. 

This "reddrumroad" troll is using a classic tactic - make personal attacks on your critics in an effort to distract from the issues at hand. The troll's phrasing is identical to that of someone who has been trying to post racist attacks about Al. I imagine this white troll is frustrated that his attacks go unseen. The white "reddrumroad" troll is also posting on YouTube rather than here because here we can see his IP. We know who it is. You've all seen him here before, under a variety of aliases, posting lies and ad hominem attacks. Apparently he's decided that posting wild lies about me (and Al) will distract from the actual work we are doing, and help him in his work of making money off the shameons. According to his latest YouTube attack, he wants to draft Kate Clinton into his stable of appropriators. To anyone who's been online for any length of time, his trolling tactics are all too familiar and transparent.



ETA: Revised video is up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG_9bGSYVV8

But the original video is also still up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXKSkZigG6o
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: frederica on December 23, 2008, 10:59:43 pm
That's almost become silly. Telling people to bring shovels, and lysol.  I can see with all that security their letting these people in with shovels. DuPont Sq. or not.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics... It just got really ugly!
Post by: SouthwestSkeptic on December 24, 2008, 12:47:53 pm
It’s getting really ugly!

Kate has changed the title of both her videos from "Sage the White House" to "Save the White House", but she can still be seen holding up a sage bundle and advising women to get sage from their local “woo woo lesbian.???

The new site is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXKSkZigG6o

She must have deliberately re-posted the video after the YouTube bot removed it.  She would have had to have contacted YouTube with an explanation to be able to repost the video.  The comments may have disappeared that way, but I know she was aware of them since she couldn't have sent me an apolgy to my YouTube inbox without reading and clicking on my comment first.

This piece of white feminist wisdom was posted by “snowyowlwomon???

We got her comment spammed so to view it you have to choose the “Show all comments??? option and then
Click on “show??? where it says “Comment(s) marked as spam Show???
 
 “Cnogaard is right!
These ignorant casino rats don't know anything about spiritualty. They're too drunk and lazy to go to university. They just want to drag us into their reservation sewers with them. My skin is white as a feather but my DNA is more red than these hater's will ever be. I wish these vermin would just go extinct!???

It seems strange that Kate/YouTube would remove my comment, but not this one.

Didn’t Goebbels depict the Jews as hordes of sewer-dwelling rats and a race of vermin?

Many of us have flagged for “hate speech??? by Kate’s supporters can’t post to YouTube for 45 days.  Snowyowlwomon, however, is free to share her wisdom with the world.

I still remeber that this is exactly the type of thing that the white lesbian-feminists said to us at our last big protest in Tucson. (except they called us casino niggers) I think I was about 13 or 14, but I will always remember the bright red faces and the absolute hatred directed at us simply for not being extinct. 

Those that said the most hateful things were always the women and it always involved extinction.

They love us when we’re dead and silent, but they can’t stand it when we try to live like full human beings or have an opinion that isn’t flattering to them.

This thing has gotten so out of hand that even if Kate does the right thing and cancels the event, her supporters are determined to exercise their white privilege and have planned "saging" events all over the country in defiance.
 
Anybody got an address for AIM in DC?

Rose





Title: Re: Just when you thought politics... It just got really ugly!
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 24, 2008, 07:14:28 pm
She must have deliberately re-posted the video after the YouTube bot removed it.  She would have had to have contacted YouTube with an explanation to be able to repost the video.  The comments may have disappeared that way, but I know she was aware of them since she couldn't have sent me an apolgy to my YouTube inbox without reading and clicking on my comment first.

This piece of white feminist wisdom was posted by “snowyowlwomon???

We got her comment spammed so to view it you have to choose the “Show all comments??? option and then
Click on “show??? where it says “Comment(s) marked as spam Show???
 
 “Cnogaard is right!
These ignorant casino rats don't know anything about spiritualty. They're too drunk and lazy to go to university. They just want to drag us into their reservation sewers with them. My skin is white as a feather but my DNA is more red than these hater's will ever be. I wish these vermin would just go extinct!???

It seems strange that Kate/YouTube would remove my comment, but not this one.

Didn’t Goebbels depict the Jews as hordes of sewer-dwelling rats and a race of vermin?

Many of us have flagged for “hate speech??? by Kate’s supporters can’t post to YouTube for 45 days.  Snowyowlwomon, however, is free to share her wisdom with the world.

I still remeber that this is exactly the type of thing that the white lesbian-feminists said to us at our last big protest in Tucson. (except they called us casino niggers) I think I was about 13 or 14, but I will always remember the bright red faces and the absolute hatred directed at us simply for not being extinct. 

Those that said the most hateful things were always the women and it always involved extinction.

I went into this trying to be calm and peaceful. My last in-person memories of Kate were of amiably chatting with her and her partner Urvashi Vaid at a protest in Boston. I had never heard of her doing anything racist in the past, but here on the East Coast NDN issues generally don't come up as often or in quite the same ways. Like the differences between Southern racism (against African-Americans) and Northern racism, the East Coast attitudes about Native people are based on a degree of ignorance that crosses into invisibility. Many people out here have never met a traditional Native person, and the "NDNs" they may know are almost always assimilated, or white PODIAs. Or frauds.

When this started, I thought of her as someone who could be reached. But this whole thing has become sickening.

I am stunned, appalled and horrified by the "extinction" comments.  That those comments would stay up... 

So many white people are willing to mouth the PC thing up until the point where it infringes on what they think are their "rights". Then people's true colors show (no pun intended).

I am trying to say something here, but I really feel stunned and speechless. And I know that what I feel in response to comments like that - based on empathy and concern for those I love vs a lifetime of experiencing that crap - is only a pale echo of what others here must feel.

Disgusting, shameful, unacceptable.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: ska on December 24, 2008, 08:05:09 pm
I second that emotion, Kathryn.

She's made her politics clear.  That the racist, hateful, eugenicist comment is allowed to stand is evidence of a complete lack of Kate Clinton's ability to make sense of the mess she has created.

Given her and her partner's public roles as intellectuals and civil rights activists it is even more shameful.  These are not your "country bumpkin" variety of racists that can be excused for their "ignorance".  Kate Clinton obviously has educated, informed people around her who are doing an incredibly lousy job of helping her deal with this issue in an effective manner.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: frederica on December 24, 2008, 08:06:52 pm
I think she has removed the comments, saw them yestercay, gone today?
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 24, 2008, 08:29:02 pm
I think she has removed the comments, saw them yestercay, gone today?

You need to go to the "View All [number] Comments" view, at the bottom of the comments column. Try this URL: http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=MXKSkZigG6o&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DMXKSkZigG6o

What happens is that when enough people "thumbs down" a comment, and/or mark it as spam, it is hidden in the main view. You have to click on the full view to see those comments. Even then, some comments are hidden unless you click on the grey text that says, "Comment(s) marked as spam." I just checked, and the above link shows 41 comments.

Though some other stuff might be going on, too. Earlier, the video was gone, replaced with text that said, "This video has been removed." But a few minutes later it was back up. Perhaps some back and forth is happening, maybe with the YouTube staff who have to evaluate it each time it's flagged as racist.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: frederica on December 24, 2008, 09:07:48 pm
Well it is no doubt racist and stereotyping. She left little to the imagination.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 26, 2008, 12:15:31 am
It's getting even uglier. The racists are now resorting to misogynist slurs and blatant sockpuppeting. The comments are now full of peurile, juvenile, condescending and abusive attempts at humour, as well as ad hominem attacks on those of us who have attempted to find some resolution to the situation.

With friends like those...
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: frederica on December 26, 2008, 02:19:41 am
I look at that as they need to clean their own house before they try to say they are going to "clean the White House". or any one elses.  A lot have such a strong sense of entitlement, this "I want it",  "I gotta have it" mentality.  They will not let anyone come up with a resolution. It's just going to go down hill.  It's all about control now, sock-puppets and all.  Doing something for all the wrong reasons will come back.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Superdog on January 09, 2009, 02:25:35 pm
Just a quick update.  The two videos have been removed by Kate Clinton.  There's a newer one up.  Apparently they're still going through with meeting at DuPont Circle, but no mention of her "joke"....now she's stating an unnamed "shaman" has volunteered to lead them.

It's progress....a little
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: frederica on January 09, 2009, 03:18:17 pm
She has just moved them, though she did do away with the first.  The mop, bucket and sage the White House is on her site http://www.kateclinton.com   It's under watch previous entires.  This group is over my head,  How they can "Sage" anything from 12 blocks away is more for publicity. Now that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Superdog on January 09, 2009, 03:41:04 pm
The publicity is what this is all about in the first place...it's a stunt...a joke.  I think she still believes that she's on the cutting edge of something.  The paragraph on kateclinton.com below the video ends with this little snippet.

"Watch for more details of our spontaneous, ingenious spectacle. Sage the White House!"

She's talking out of both sides of her mouth on this one...the paragraph before says bring cleaning products, but all the other info says "sage" the white house.  Something tells me that she's acting one way in public, but has an agenda not to give in in front of her core fans.  The fact that she calls her spectacle "ingenious" and "spontaneous" are both ironic.  It's neither.  This is a planned event...nothing spontaneous about that and it's certainly not original so I wonder how it elevates to ingenious on the merit that she heard about one rumor and created a stunt around that rumor...whether it was true or not.

Oh boy....

Well...other than this mess I happen to think she's a good humorist and on the right track on a lot of things....I think in this case she's stepped into something way too deep for her and she's scared (yes....terrified) to "give in" to outside forces as that goes against the "don't get beaten by 'the man'" counterculture she gets her core group of fans from.

Suddenly in this case she and some of her fans have taken the stance that now Native American people and our desire to not be mocked are modes of "oppression" for her and her fans (and just for clarification as I've seen some of her fans get upset when talking about them ....I mean any kind of person, man, woman or beast, gay or straight who is a fan of hers and I'm not alliterating to or targeting any specific group of individuals other than those who consider themselves fans of Kate Clinton).....

So there you have it....now we're oppressing non-Indians (sic)....
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: frederica on January 09, 2009, 04:15:21 pm
I think yor are right.  I know looking at it she at first said it was a "joke".  Then I guess she decided she could benefit from the publicity involving her own politics.  It's like trying to advance an agenda.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Superdog on January 09, 2009, 06:03:05 pm
For those that wanna see it the new vid is here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOJMnbrzSjg&feature=channel_page

Bland version of the other ones just outlining where to meet and what to bring and check to see what security will let you in with as well as an invitation to conduct your own "saging" at your home.  She also mentions an unnamed "shaman" who will be conducting things for them.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 09, 2009, 10:47:28 pm
She also mentions an unnamed "shaman" who will be conducting things for them.

See, I think this may be worse than just Kate and her friends flailing about on their own. With the degree of ignorance she's shown about Indigenous ceremony and cultural standards - and the fact she's using the word "shaman" - I'll be stunned if this "shaman" is *not* one of the appropriators and frauds we've all heard of.

It's classic for white people in this position to find some sellout to make them feel ok about their behaviour, so they can ignore the voices of the majority who are telling them that what they're doing is not OK.

I think it's also telling that this "shaman" is so far unnamed. Have any actual NDN groups, or Indigenous groups of any sort, been asked for help, or even input?  Again, seeing how this has gone so far, I'll be stunned if any non-Nuage groups or individuals are listened to.

I gave Kate the link to this forum. She and her people now have access to information about who is and isn't legit in these matters. But given recent behaviour from that camp, I have no expectation whatsoever that this event will be respectful of any Indigenous culture. Respect just doesn't fit with what we've seen so far.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: frederica on January 10, 2009, 12:56:26 am
I think someone was trying to  contact a group.  It's all so flip to me, her attitude I mean.  It looks like publicity.  Now they are "cleaning Washington DC".  Good luck on that.   I suppose bringing in a Shameon makes it ok to misuse Sage, at least in her mind.  I know little of her or her supporter's  politics,  but it always suprises me when people buy into this sort of thing.  It will be interesting to see if they contact the news people to let them know what they are doing, trying to get coverage.  You usually don't find respect with people that have their own agenda.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: 180IQ on January 10, 2009, 03:57:40 am
I don't see a way to flag a video as "racist" - that is not one of the options when you look for a reason to give a red flag. Also, every link to a Kate Clinton video that wasn't there said it had been "removed by the user". When youtube removes a video, it will cite "terms of use violation" or copyright infringement or some such - which hasn't been the case with these videos.

Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 10, 2009, 04:12:35 am
I don't see a way to flag a video as "racist"

It's a bit convoluted, but here's how you do it:

* Under the video, click on the far right icon for "Flag"

* In the drop-down menu, "select a reason," mouse over "hateful or abusive content" and click on "promotes hatred or violence"

* A blue box will pop up, with text about hate speech, and the request to "Please indicate the group attacked." In that drop-down menu, you can choose options like "race" or "ethnic origin." There is also a space to add a comment, such as, "promotes racism," or whatever specifics you'd like to add.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 12, 2009, 10:15:04 pm
We're trying to come up with someone who is reasonably well-known, who understands the NDN issues here, who might be listened to by the white, liberal supporters of Kate Clinton. Preferably someone in DC, but doesn't have to be.

Or event if the racists won't listen, someone that the media will be prone to listen to.

I can converse reasonably well with both groups, and have a history in both communities, but am not a "name."  Nor can I get to DC for this action. Everyone we've thought of to contact so far is an NDN woman who hasn't been willing to wade into the cultural misappropriation issue, or who has shown in the past that they won't challenge other feminists,  even when they cross the line like this.

To me, someone who is racist doesn't get to call themselves a feminist. But I'm old-school, a dinosaur from the days when people at least tried to understand interconnected oppressions.

If you can think of anyone appropriate to address this, PM me or, better yet, message iktomereturns over on YouTube.: http://www.youtube.com/user/iktomereturns
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: ska on January 12, 2009, 11:37:23 pm
Hi Kathryn,

Suzan Shown Harjo of the Morningstar Institute is in DC, and is well-known in the Native community (former president of NCAI).  She's one of the people who has brought a case against the Washington Redskins organization, a case that is ongoing.

Earthw7 recently posted an article of Harjo's on the indianz.com website and her email address is listed at the end of the article as being:

 suzan_harjo@ yahoo.com
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 12, 2009, 11:39:58 pm
Suzan Shown Harjo of the Morningstar Institute is in DC
...
 suzan_harjo@ yahoo.com

Yeah, I think some of the AZ crew know her, and are writing up something to send her.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: ska on January 12, 2009, 11:48:44 pm
Sorry, after I offered Harjo's name, I checked my email and the activists from iktomereturns told me that Harjo has been unhelpful in past attempts to address the racism of middle class "feminists".

Sure wish I had run into some of those old skool feminists who were down with examining the intersectionality of oppression back in the day, Kathryn.  I've always found the women's movement to be heavily invested in racism.  Amongst women of color who try to address racism, there is still a tendency to downplay our Settler consciousness and existence.  In fact, it's in the women's community that I keep seeing this bs about "saging" ceremonies.

That's one of the problems I see with Kate Clinton's fans - they are so heavily invested in being the victims of heteropatriarchy that they are unwilling to examine the oppressive roots of their own behavior.

best, ska
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: frederica on January 13, 2009, 12:27:16 am
I think you would want her to address the cultural appropiation rather than the racism.  Racism would be hard to deal with in this stitutation.  What I remember one was stereotypical and the other was not even something a good parrot would follow through  with.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: ska on January 13, 2009, 01:07:39 am
Hi Frederica,

Don't know what definition of racism you ascribe to.  As I see it, cultural appropriation is a very common form of racism, particularly in colonial societies.

best, ska
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: frederica on January 13, 2009, 01:09:08 am
I talking about the abuse of the use of Sage.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: ska on January 13, 2009, 02:57:52 am
me too :-)
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: frederica on January 13, 2009, 04:08:19 am
It started with the misuse of Sage.     One didn't leave much to the imagination on racism, as I said before.  I would stick with the misuse of Sage.  Not play the Race card. JMO.  Now I'm through with it.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: ska on January 13, 2009, 06:00:28 am
Frederica,

You're entitled to your opinion.  But don't try to diminish my view with this colonial crap about a "race card" - this kind of tired comment is very commonly used to silence people who want to connect our everyday actions to Settler ideology and the practice of racism. 

I'm not playing a card game.  I'm a Canadian Settler of Punjabi heritage living in Native territories, married to a Lakota man, with a son who is both Punjabi and Lakota growing up in a White-dominated society.  My life has been spent surviving and resisting all kinds of racism at the same time that I have been journeying through my own process of decolonization and unlearning the racism that I have internalized.  Race is not a "card" for me.  It reflects labels and practices that have been used to diminish and destroy many people that I know and love.

Maybe from where you are sitting, racism is a game.  I don't know you and you don't know me.  For me, racism is a deadly and daily part of my reality.  I've survived violence, sexual violence, and the death of family, all caused by racism.  I've spent most of my life learning about all kinds of subtle and overt forms of racism.  The fact that I'm qualified to teach about racialization in a university is also relevant to my view of the world, but not nearly as important as my lived experiences of racism.  I start with the assumption that Canada, USA and other White Settler societies were formed and justified on the basis of racism, and this racism weaves its way throughout our culture, habits, practices, and thought.

Since December, I have been speaking back to the vile racism that's been spewing forth through the comments on Kate Clinton's YouTube video.  This has brought me in touch with many wonderful Native activists and artists who have also been trying to raise some consciousness about the racism and colonial world view that underlies Clinton's proposed activity.  These activists are familiar with the kind of racism that underlies and informs Kate Clinton's actions and the racism of her fans who defend her right to do this. 

Quite frankly, I'm a bit surprised to find you engaging in this king of colonial psychic distancing.  I thought this was a rather kick-ass site where shame-ons are exposed for their racist and fraudulent practices. 

So thanks for your opinion.  For me, "mis-using sage" means adding a bit too much to the turkey dressing.  On the other hand, I interpret Kate Clinton's intentions to "sage the White House" by "invoking the optimistic spirit" of Native ceremony designed to get rid of "bad spirits" as a blatant example of White colonial thought and racism.

You may choose to soft-peddle on this issue.  So be it.  On the other hand, I am going to name the force behind Kate Clinton's actions for what it is: RACISM.

ska
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 13, 2009, 10:55:59 pm
The fact that Kate Clinton is proceeding with this over the objections of Native Americans, and is continuing to present it as comedy, has reduced the event to the level of a minstrel show.

Would she don blackface and have a watermelon eating contest on the White House lawn to welcome Obama? Maybe complete with some blackface dancing and "Mammy"-singing?

Would she have her girlfriend Urvashi perform a fake puja by waving around Lysol and McDonald's hamburgers while an entourage of white women make up "spontaneous chants and dances" that seem Hindu to them? Or maybe while the white women do Buddhist chants? (Because, you know, it's all "Asian." Hell, maybe they could toss in some Shinto things, too. And wear kimonos.)

When she first proposed this, I assumed that she did so out of ignorance. I figured she only knew of white "woo woo" lesbians using sage, and had no idea of the broader context. But now that she's been told otherwise, and has chosen to censor and ignore the voices of Native Americans and their supporters, it has moved from the realm of ignorance to that of intentional acts of racism.

I think racist acts done out of well-meaning ignorance are still racist, but without the intent to be racist there is sometimes room to reach the person and educate them. Well-meaning people who do something unintentionally racist are often mortified when it is explained to them that what they did or said was offensive, and often those people will seek to educate themselves further and make amends. But if once someone knows better they decide to proceed anyway, that is a whole different - and racist - situation.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Superdog on January 16, 2009, 02:53:51 pm
Got forwarded this bit of info from a friend on Kate Clinton's e-mail list...the Shaman apparently has a name. 

--------------------------------------------------
A Message From Kate Clinton REGARDING SAGE THE DATE

Join Kate Clinton, Shaman Mama Donna and thousands in DC and around the world for this simultaneous SAGING event. Just as the priests and shamans were called in to sage Machu Pichu after George Bush's ten minute So You Think You Can Dance visit to the ruins, you are being called to sage the White House after George's eight years of ruinous residency. Let's banish those evil spirits the night before the Inauguration of Barack Hussein Obama.

When: January 19, 2009

Meet Time: 6:00 pm est

Ceremony: 6:15 pm est

Where To Meet: Fountain in Dupont Circle in Washington, DC - Look for the rainbow umbrella.

Check out the NEW UPDATED SAGE THE WHITE HOUSE vlog for more info:
www.kateclinton.com
----------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Superdog on January 16, 2009, 02:56:46 pm
So here's our mysterious "shaman" that kate has been keeping a secret.
A google search on Shaman Mama Donna gave me this site:

http://www.donnahenes.net/

She's also got a youtube channel where there is film of a few of her rituals.

http://www.youtube.com/user/MamaDonnaHenes

She calls herself an "Urban Shaman" and is a bit more of an eccentricity rather than a fraud.  She's honest about her "Urban Shaman" title being self-proclaimed and also honest about how her rituals are made up by herself.  She just kind of does what she thinks feels good.  The vid of the blessing of the New York Stork Exchange was pretty amusing.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 16, 2009, 09:39:16 pm
Oh dear.

I've heard of her (she runs ads in some women's and nuage zines) but my impression was that she was mostly a performance artist.

ETA: http://donnahenes.net/pages/feature.shtml
Quote
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

JANUARY 19
MONDAY, 6:00 PM
END OF BUSH ERA PURIFICATION RITE

Mama Donna and Kate Clinton will lead a participatory ritual to
cleanse our government after eight years of dirty politics, dirty deals, and dirty wars.
Bring a smudge stick and a drum or bell. DRUM OUT THE OLD, RING IN THE NEW!

Dupont Circle at the fountain
Washington, DC
FREE

And here's where you can buy your "Native American harvested white
desert sage. For purification and spiritual cleansing. USA. $18"
http://www.donnahenes.net/shop/herbs.shtml

On this page she sells a variety of other culture vulture objects,
including soap claiming to be for an Irish goddess, chock full of herbs that do not
grow in Ireland, and have never been used in traditional Gaelic
healing: http://www.donnahenes.net/shop/cleanse.shtml

Here, she demonstrates some of her rituals, and explains how you should use ceremonies from any culture that "feels right" to you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFQI-S7Cyvc
At 2:37 she hacks up some sweetgrass.

http://donnahenes.net/pages/ser-ceremonies.shtml
"Fees vary depending upon the complexity of the ritual,
supplies required, location, and number of attendees."

Though she does have some set fees for weddings:

http://donnahenes.net/pages/ser-ceremonies.shtml#vows
Quote
WEDDING PACKAGES
     

$850. includes 2 hours of consultation*, ceremonial supplies, research and preparation, local travel (25 mile radius), rehearsal, and ceremony.

$1200. includes unlimited consultations, ceremonial supplies, research and preparation, local travel (25 mile radius), private counseling and blessing ceremony for the couple, rehearsal, and ceremony.

*Initial consultation is complimentary. Additional consultation time is $100/hour.

Special amulets for guests can be arranged. Prices vary.

And more fees for ceremonies listed here: http://donnahenes.net/pages/events.shtml
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Dreamfish on January 17, 2009, 07:21:23 am
Just a question from far, afar....

Considering the overwhelming threat of some considerable numbers of white supremacists and totally insane fruit-cakes baulking at the prospect of the first Black American President taking up residence in the White House, do you think a posse of white, woo-woo lesbians and smudge-waving screwballs will actually get anywhere within coo-ee of .... well pretty much anything in Washington this year?

(coo-ee is an Australian measurement of distance based on the ability to hear mothers shrieking from their clothes lines "Coo-ee...get home, it's time for dinner"!)

BUT! if this is happening...
Quote
"...dons blackface and have a watermelon eating contest on the White House lawn to welcome Obama? Maybe complete with some blackface dancing and "Mammy"-singing? and girlfriend Urvashi performs a fake puja by waving around Lysol and McDonald's hamburgers while an entourage of white women make up "spontaneous chants and dances" that seem Hindu to them? Or maybe while the white women do Buddhist chants? (Because, you know, it's all "Asian." Hell, maybe they could toss in some Shinto things, too. And wear kimonos.)"

... then I'm coming with my camera. That's the best possible production outline for an anti-racism campaign I could ever have imagined possible.
 

Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" t
Post by: kiyoshi on March 14, 2009, 04:07:43 am
I just left a lesbian off-the-grid community that (among other things) was pretty heavy into cultural stealing.  (Not ALL of the lesbian community is like this.  Some women in it really do either have a clue, or are trying to get one.)  Anyway, what I can say: the community I just left was pretty much like a cult.  Lots of hierarchy (that wasn't supposed to exist) and a lot of scapegoating and abuse.  Very abusive sweat lodge once met there.  The leader of that lodge is now pretty heavily involved in a "women's sun dance" that now intends to hold annual dances at a "women's land" known as Westwind in Ribera NM. She is a woman of color--claims to be Yaqui--was not tribally raised or trained to run sweats. 

I'm not Native: I'm Euro/Asian bi-racial.  Now confronting my own racism and cultural stealing.  After reading the posts, am beginning to get a clue that maybe my amends can be something along the lines of getting active around various issues that affect many Native communities.  Will be doing research and making decisions.  Am definitely open to input and suggestions.

Thanks,  --kiyoshi   
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on November 25, 2009, 07:31:13 pm
The Do No Harm site has archived some of the videos and screen caps from this debacle:  http://donoharm.bravepages.com/

After investigating it further, a group of us who looked into this are pretty certain the "snowyowlwoman" and other vicious, racist comments that were posted on YouTube did not all come from the man we thought was doing it. He was probably involved, but it's pretty clear that most of the hate (under a number of sockpuppet accounts) was spewed by a vicious white woman who has a very similar agenda - that of trying to silence the voices of NDNs who oppose cultural misappropriation, while supporting the sellouts she can find who want to sell ceremony to whites.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: NDN_Outlaw on November 28, 2009, 05:55:15 pm
Imagine if some Roman Catholic lesbian group holy watered the White House.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on December 20, 2009, 08:48:04 am
Roman Catholic Lesbians??   I think they'd have to call the priests to come and undo the work of the devil in that scenario..  LOL
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 20, 2009, 07:40:45 pm
Roman Catholic Lesbians??   I think they'd have to call the priests to come and undo the work of the devil in that scenario..  LOL

I'm not sure what you mean here.

Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on December 20, 2009, 07:48:55 pm
Roman Catholic Lesbians??   I think they'd have to call the priests to come and undo the work of the devil in that scenario..  LOL



I'm not sure what you mean here.

Oh, the religious folk I know consider 'homosexuality' to be the work of the devil.. so if Roman Catholic Lesbians were throwing 'holy water' around the White House, some of them right wing whatnots would want it de-demonized..  It was sort of a joke though.. sorry if I lost anyone on it..  :D
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: Defend the Sacred on December 20, 2009, 07:57:09 pm
Well, it could be read that you were saying lesbians were "of the devil". So thank you for clarifying  that you were making fun of people who say things like that.

For the record, in more detail: The problem with Kate Clinton's "Sage the Whitehouse" debacle was not that the non-NDNs who wanted to "sage" were lesbians, it's that they were non-NDNs misappropriating and mocking NDN ceremonies. There were lesbians on both sides of the issue. There were people who were raised Catholic on both sides of the issue. Many Catholic nuns and priests are lesbians and gay men (though, obviously, usually closeted). And, no offense meant to the Catholics here, but the Catholic clergy are not doing so well in the ethics department themselves when it comes to NDN issues, either in the past or the present.

So, I understand your joke, but what you wrote initially could very easily be misinterpreted. I especially wanted to clarify this because, while it was lesbians who were organizing this offensive display, some of those who were working the hardest to stop it are also lesbians or queer women.
Title: Re: Just when you thought politics couldn't get any stranger - lesbians "sage" the W
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on December 20, 2009, 11:04:12 pm
No problem.. I don't mind clarifying, and can see your point.  :D