NAFPS Forum
General => Frauds => Topic started by: educatedindian on June 04, 2007, 01:18:22 am
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Before Marlon and the nice lady Ms. Dupree came along and took up our time, I'd planned to post about this.
By sheer chance, as I was flipping channels on one of my rare days off and I saw on the People's Court a case involving a group calling itself the Cherokee Blackfoot Cultural Circle. Did anyone else see this?
The group appeared to be Blacks wearing bits of regalia combined with fezzes and skullcaps and a "chief" wearing a black head scarf or covering similar to what I've seen in pictures of Sikh believers from India. They all had various titles like Chief Two Feather. The chief was wearing a sash with what looked like the CNO symbol embroidered on it.
The case was a woman who'd lost money in a business venture with them and also given a donation. She wanted her money back but the "chief" was withholding it because she possessed COPIES of Cherokee treaties downloaded off the net. They insisted the copies were sacred and wouldn't give her money back until she gave them up. And (sounding familar) she'd criticized them and they insisted any criticism was "slander."
All I've been able to find so far is this brief notice.
http://www.nanews.org/archive/1999/nanews07.041
PRESS RELEASE:
It gives the Native American Nations great pride in announcing this press
release in regards to the FIRST ever in New York City, Assembly of Indian
Nations Parade.
On Saturday, October 9, 1999 from 12:00 noon to 6:00pm, we will host the
First Native American Day Parade, starting at Macy's on 34th Street and
Broadway and ending at the Veteran's Memorial Eternal Light Circle on 23d
Street and Park Avenue.
For more information please contact:
Chief Red Deer
Cherokee/Blackfeet Cultural Circle
(917)-253-3404
(212)666-9478
or
Chief Firebird Graywolf
(718)378-1838
Cherokee / Blackfeet Cultural Circle
P. O. Box 2070
New York, New York 10
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here is the web site for the “cherokee/blackfeet cultural circle???
http://cherokeeblackfeetcultural.bizopiaweb.com/Default.aspx?tabid=663424
(it took a good bit of digging to find this site! .. enjoy .. *grin*)
there is a lot more if you really dig .. here is some of what i found ..
_______________________________________________
http://www.bnaa.org/guestbook/Processed.txt
================= On Sat Jul 15 18:23:59 ;
Name: Chief Firebird GrayWolf
Comments: Dear friends,My tribe is made up of people of African blood I am a Uku Chief and my Principal Chief is Chief Sitting Sun of the Ohatchee Cherokee Tribe of Alabama and New York we are recoginized by State Law . We would like to communicate with you and leaarn about your Association. I am also a Clan Mother for NENA.(north eastern native american association)which is a interbribal association. Would you be so kind as communicate with us. Thank you Chief Firebird Graywolf.
__________________________________________________________
also found this, when i found the above ..
http://www.bnaa.org/
The Black Native American Association (BNA) is an intertribal group of people with African-American and Native American heritage who organized in the late summer of 1992. Due to the adverse impact of past and present governmental policies, the Black Native American Association does not minic 'Blood Quantum Police" tactics. We do not require proof of tribal enrollment or recognition. Our membership is comprised of people of all ages and from many walks of life including students, teachers, housing developers, trainers, social workers, journalists, activists, chemists, and more.
Although our association was founded in the Oakland-San Francisco Bay Area our intertribal membership includes indigenous peoples from all over the world. We intentionally honor ALL our ancestors. Our Association is an integral part of urban and rural Native American Communities as well as active in many different activities in the Black Community. In terms of Native American involvement we are a member of the Bay Area American Indian Representatives (BAAIR). We participate on various committees such as the Indigenous Peoples Day Celebration and Pow Wow in Berkeley, California, which replaces the exclusive and insulting Columbus Day. Additionally, we participate and support the International Indian Treaty Council’s United Nation’s activities for Non Governmental Organizations and the Bay Area’s Intertribal Friendship House.
The founders are Don ‘Little Cloud’ Davenport: Seminole ( Bird Clan/Creek/Chickasaw/Sudanese; Zenobia Embry-Nimmer: Black and Tslagi (Cherokee); Richard (Rip) " Henonoquaad ( Keeper of the Fire )" Harris: Creek and Choctaw, and Bonita Roxie Aleja Sizemore: ( Porch Creek Band / Seminole / Choctaw / Tslagi, with her African ancestors from Mali and Sudan. The BNA developed to its current state after the founders came together at the 1992 annual Silver Star Pow Wow held in Oakland, California, sponsored by the American Indian Film Institute A detailed history of the organization is available here. We have a collection of links useful for those interested in Native American geneology, crafts, dress and folklore.
the above group has a yahoo group at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bnaa/
_____________________________________________________________
also found these .. seems they have a lot of “chiefs??? ..
http://www.saponitown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=607&page=5
02-04-2006, 07:12 PM
maude
maude is offline
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 12
I am a ceremonial chief to the CherokeeBlackfeet Cultural Cirlce in New York. Many folks there also carry Saponi descendant blood in their veins.
Chief Red Deer's number is (917) 951-0294 or (877) 280-1625.
My number is 202) 986-3935. I would like to invite you to a meeting here in DC if you are on this end in April.
April 22nd, Chief Red Deer will be here to talk about the Cherokee Blackfeet Cultural Circle, we will have a naming ceremony & we will sign folks up for membership, that includes tax free status.
Do Na Da Gahvoni Wado
Louise Thundercloud
Chief Louise Thundercloud
02-05-2006, 02:15 AM
maude
maude is offline
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 12
Hello all, there is another group to consider, "The Cherokee Blackfeet Cultural Circle" in New York. We are currently in a membership drive, you need to supply ID . Contact Chief Red Deer at (917) 951-0294 or (877) 280-1625. My name is Chief Louise Thundercloud, I can be reached via email at: maudehills@aol.com. I am the Southeastern representative of the CherokeeBlackfeet Cultural Circle here in DC.
Chief Red Deer will be here on the 22nd of April to talk about the Cultural Circle, we will have a naming ceremony & folks will be able to sign up for membership.
It is the 22nd of April at 2:30, 901 G Street NW. Washington DC .
You can call (202) 986-3925 (me) for information.
I have a group in DC for the unity of all indigenous folks. Most of us are mixed bloods on this coast, many do not have any documentation on a written basis, most have oral history & actually both native & african peoples kept pretty strict oral histories, those things are very important.
Chief Louise Thundercloud
___________________________________________________
http://www.wetheworld.org/wtw2/apr22benefit/index.php4
Monday April 23rd
We, The World, WBAI, Good News Broadcast, New Realities and Planet Heart
With 11 Days of Global Unity Present
Message from our Cherokee, Navajo, and Brazilian elders
7:00pm-9:00pm Kraine Theatre, 85 East 4th Street
Between 2nd and 3rd Aves, near 2nd in Manhattan
Take the F or V Train to 2nd Ave or the #6 Train to Astor Place
A gathering of our native Elders featuring:
* Grandmother Two Feathers, Cherokee Tribe
* Chief Red Deer, Cherokee and Apache Tribe
* Margarita Romponas, Cherokee, Apache and Seminole Tribes
* Lygia DMC, Tuti Guarani (Brazilian) Tribe
____________________________________________________
http://www.afrigeneas.com/forume/index.cgi?noframes;read=7049
African-Native American Genealogy Forum
Coming Togather as One
Posted By: Chitua Duncan <Send E-Mail>
Date: Tuesday, 18 October 2005, at 12:47 p.m.
Halito! My People.
I am glad to join you once again here on this Black Indian Forum.
I just wanted to say that we had a great time at the Pow!Wow! in Enid Oklahoma. Their was the blessing of the grounds by Chief Red Deer of the Cherokee Nation in New York,the drumer's and singer's were from the Ponca Nation here in Oklahoma, there were Creek's Seminole's,as well as a few Sac/Fox,that took part in this Pow!Wow!.I would like to take this time to ask that all Black Indians try to come to next year's Pow!Wow! it's going to be bigger than this one was, the Black Indians United org, has asked the Navajo Nation to join us in 2006 for the next Pow!Wow!. I hope that we as a people can come togather and heal the sore that is eating away our pride,love,and the will to become one.
_____________________________________________________
http://lists.topica.com/lists/politics-of-meaning@igc.topica.com/read/message.html?sort=t&mid=812707769
Monday April 23rd
We, The World, WBAI, Good News Broadcast, New Realities and Planet Heart
With 11 Days of Global Unity Present
Message from our Cherokee, Navajo,
and Brazilian elders
7:00pm-9:00pm
Kraine Theatre, 85 East 4th Street
Between 2nd and 3rd Aves, near 2nd
in Manhattan
Take the F or V Train to 2nd Ave or the #6 Train to Astor Place
A gathering of our native Elders featuring:
Grandmother Two Feathers, Cherokee Tribe
Chief Red Deer, Cherokee and Apache Tribe
Margarita Romponas, Cherokee, Apache and Seminole Tribes
Lygia DMC, Tuti Guarani (Brazilian) Tribe
With music by Rosemary Werley (Cherokee, Navajo and Seminole) and
her indigenous band Plus chants and prayers with Lygia DMC, Spirit Walk Woman and musical accompanist Christopher, with Ebony Three Arrows (Tsalagi Black
Indian, Fire Keeper for the Green Mountain Band of Ani Yun Wiwa under
Chief Dhyani Ywahoo) .
Come gather with Our Native Elders and hear important messages about our sacred mother earth. Don't miss this opportunity to be with them at this very special evening! Including live performances and prayers. Proceeds benefit 11 days, We, The World, WBAI and Planet Heart.
Suggested Donation: $10, Call 800-609-9202 ext. 2 or apr22b-@wetheworld.org
Limited Seating!! Cash only at the door.
www.wetheworld.org/apr22
__________________________________________________________
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please note ..
*warning* surf the web site of the "cherokee/blackfeet cultural circle" at your own risk .. though i did find the site, i really do not wish to be held accountable for anyones subsequent health problems .. .. actually i did not make it very far before turning back .. will try to peruse more tomorrow .. ;)
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I've heard of them that's about it. But not very much. States they are recognized by Berlin, Germany the Indigenous Baltic People of Prussia. Need Ingleborg for that one. Looks like a mixture of African, Asian, Algonquian, South American, Cherokee and whose knows what else. It's hard to say what they are even talking about. frederica
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I'll be glad to comment, but I can't find anything like that on their page:
States they are recognized by Berlin, Germany the Indigenous Baltic People of Prussia
Can you give me some further directions, please? thnx
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That's the "chief" that was on TV, in the turban. If you go to the photo gallery, the woman suing was "Clan Mother Brown Eagle."
Some of this is unintentionally funny:
"Supreme Clans Mother Long Wind Nassar Muhammad"
Certainly long winded.
"We tend to accept an individual’s Indian identity or descent as proclamed and time will tell what’s incorrect, confused, or simply bogus."
"This part of mother earth was own rule and master by ancient Asiatic aboriginal kings the original inhibiters of the Western Hemisphere was the people call Indians."
"The people according to our history of Asiatic record were called (ong wee) the same people that have endured to this day called Indians. Our fore-father rule and built canals here (oseowa) of papaeunughevtowa which extended from the sea of Hoolahoola pan (Lake Superior) to the plains of Aigonquehanelachahoba (Taxas) ten thousand boats (canoes) was the canal extending along carrying copper and silver from the North Regions to the cities of the valley. The great rich valley of Seganeogalgalyaluciahomaahomhor Louisiana and Mississippi the original ruler of Panama was a black native King of Asiatic descent. He was also Indian the high Heogula Ophat is (Tennessee) in this Region the aboriginal native king Penambta. Rule thirty tributary cities of tens of thousands of inhabitants."
Outside of saying that canoes are boats, I don't see a single correct thing in these passages.
"I am Shaman Red Deer, organizational Shaman and ascending Avatar"
Oh boy...
"of the great spirits"
Great Spirit is now plural?
"will of the Cherokee Blackfeet and Cultural Circle of New York City metropolitan area and the province of Long Island"
Long Island is a province?
"and the tri-state area calling for the assemblage and unity into oneness and peace of the thousands of Cherokee’s in the New York City area as it is my understanding there exist thousands of Cherokee’s in New York City."
Well, yes, but you're probably not one.
"The time has arrived in Asiatic history the Asiatic aboriginal nations call Indians to return to their ancient ways traditions!!"
Asiatic aboriginal?
"The Blue Fox Clan Cherokee of who Shaman Red Deer is a member our Cherokee forefather resisted and rebel against the death march that was force upon the Indian people in 1838 call the trail of tears in which approximately 4,000 Indians was slaughter by Europeans"
There's no Blue Fox Clan among the Cherokee that I've ever heard of.
"but thanks to the great spirits guidance the Blue Fox Clan, Cherokee rebellion and resistance, enable 12,000 out of the 16,000 Cherokee’s that was do to be rounded up by the government of the united state under fake pretend to escape into the hills and mountains of the Alleghenies and the Appalachian mountains."
Fake pretend to escape to the hills?
I'm not sure how many members the Eastern Band had in 1838, but it sure wasn't anything close to 12,000, and that alleged clan wasn't part of it.
"Preamblematic Dimension 7.
The Native American being less in the numeral population in the United States of America. The political system of America is not a mandate of promise for Native American people. The Americans, being the natural landlords of the western hemisphere is the existing quorum majority ruler’s that must be recognize in the western hemisphere as the ancient unicameral Indians governmental system of present day native American quorums of chiefs reservations and non-reservationist of the Indian people here in the western hemisphere."
I doubt anyone knows what he just said, including him.
"The Cherokee Blackfeet Cultural Circle of New York City has been represented by Renowned Shaman Red Deer on the Gil Noble Show, Like It Is on channel 7.
Renowned Shaman Red Deer has also appeared on the cable television show Community Round Table, channel 34."
That's supposed to impress people?
"The Cherokee Algonquin Medicine Bundle Ceremony is rooted in the wisdom and science of indigenous Native American spirituality, which has been practice, by our ancestors for untold thousands of years! On This Continent.
Being a Ceremonial Shaman
I have been entrusted as keeper of The Sacred Medicine Bundle for the Cherokee BlackFeet Cultural Circle of New York City Tri-State area. The Medicine Bundle Ceremony of the Cherokee BlackFeet Cultural Circle carry a deeper meaning than the dictionary does not distinguish and difference in meaning between the terms Witch Doctor and Medicine Man"
No comment needed.
"In the Spiritual world I’m a Cherokee Universal Avatar Ceremonial
Chief and Shaman to my People
The name Avatar is a title of a Spiritual office held by one of spiritual qualifications who manifest the principles of the Great Spirit notably a wisdom Chief Shaman or learned eider. The title Avatar is a title and Office of Supremacy. The word Avatar is an ancient Asiatic Indian word that has its Etymology in the most Ancient Sanskrit language of Asia. In kinship we are a Universal People.
What is an Avatar?
The answer to this question must be given justice in its spiritual significance. The term Avatar must be well understood. The Avatar is a Great World teacher who sacred duties are to right the wrongs the indigenous People are suffering and to bring peace to the Indian Nations, Tribes, Kinder and Tongues of Indian People in the Four Directions of Mother Earth. The Avatar represents the fulfillment of the Embodiment of the Promise Indian Messiah of the Indigenous People of the Asiatic Western Hemisphere to come. Such advent among the Indigenous Asiatic Indians of a Spiritual magnitude of this nature has not been fulfilling in the Asiatic Western I Hemisphere in thousands of years!"
No comment needed.
"An Avatar represents the focusing and embodiment of the Principles and laws and way of the Great Spirit of Peace. I myself being a Supreme Ceremonial Chief Shaman and ascending work is due to the fact of my Indigenous Heritage being horn of the Blue Fox Clan of West Virginia."
Now it's W Virginia.
"In the spiritual world of Indian spirituality, the Energizer, the Avatar Chief or Sham spirituality are like the life giving sun to the people by way of feeding them with spiritual food for the soul. In spirit word spiritually trite spirituality are like sunshine. Our Indian’s are never outdated."
Well that's mighty white of you.
"The sun is an ancient red hail of tire but its’ energy are always new and refreshing. The sun is never out dated. The Great Spirit is the Divine Electrical current that flows spiritually through the Indian people. Good Spirit, good energy are refreshing for the soul and always renewing. The Great Spirit is never out dated. The spiritual source in the spiritual theology of indigenous people, cultural and traditions represents the energizer and the energized. I. myself being a spiritual person upholding the sacred office of being the Avatar to my people I am not or desire to he deputize or ordain by the Secular Worlds Theology of Religion."
Again, even he doesn't seem to know what he's saying.
And of course:
"Cherokee Blackfeet Cultural Circle of New York City is a 501 C-3 non-profit federal recognize organization. All donations is tax deductible. Please send contributions to the Cherokee Blackfeet Cultural Circle of New York City, P.O. Box 2070, New York, NY 10027-2825.
Click here to download the donation form.
We Accept Credit Cards"
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Found it via google!
Under the renowned leadership of Shaman Red Deer the Cherokee Blackfeet Cultural Circle is recognized in Berlin, Germany by the indigenous Baltic People of Prussia and the indigenous Indians of Canada
I've got two answers for you, a short one and a long one.
The short one is: B.S.
The long(er) one:
The Prussians were the indigenous population of Prussia, that much is true. Their cousins were e.g. Lithuanians and Latvians; the languages and cultures were related. The languages belong to the Baltic branch of Indo-European languages, i.e. they are neither Germanic nor Slavic. The Prussians were organized in seven tribes who recognized being related but who were acting independent of each other and according to reports led by chiefs.
When the Templar Knights were sent to the region today known as East Prussia (its Northern part belongs to Russia today, its Southern part to Poland) to conquer and mission in the 12th century, the Prussians eventually were defeated and their land taken, and they became second-class citizens in their home country. Prussian was spoken until mid-18th century, but then it ceased to exist as a spoken language (whereas the language of my ancestors, Masurian, ceased to be spoken after 1945). When the reign of the Templar Knights ended, Prussia became a region which saw massive immigration from the German countries. Especially under King Frederic the Great, lots of immigrants poured in, as he offered security for Protestants who were harassed by authorities in their home countries (e.g. France and Austria, but
also many German states).
The Prussians were assimilated into the new population emerging of immigrants coming from more or less all over Europe. This means they do not exist as an ethnic entity today and have not for several hundreds of years. Thus they are not mentioned in the special status given to minorities in Germany (like Friesians, Sorbs, and Danes).
I googled a bit more, since East Prussia is a highly popular issue among some of our Nazi groups and parties who want the region back claiming the Germans brought so much culture into the country (now, this may sound familiar to ndns....). Though I never heard of any extreme right weirdos declaring themselves as the "People of Prussia", there might have been a chance such a group does exist. Nope. So, as I said above, this alleged recognition is nothing but B.S.
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If they claim endorsement by a group on the far right, it wouldn't be the first time. There's a long history of allegedly radical Black groups with contacts with the far right. Malcolm X negotiating with the KKK for them to buy land for the Nation of Islam to set up an all Black nation, for example.
The Washitaws have been endorsed by the Republic of Texas, a militia group best known here in the US for a standoff with the feds. The Nuwaubians had lots of contacts with militia groups, even working with them for a fraud scam.
(For our European members, the militia movement sprang up mostly to oppose gun laws. Some are from the fringes of the Libertarians or anti tax conservatives, some are tied to white supremacists.)
Found these links in English.
http://www.baltictimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18
http://groups.msn.com/BalticLoyalist
And this collection of links mostly in German.
http://groups.msn.com/PrussianHeritageFoundation/links.msnw
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I knew I had heard something about this. Here is what Tom Kunesh said about it. http://www.darkfiber.com/blackirish/cherokeeblackfoot.html frederica
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why are these guys not put in the fraud area??
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You're right. They're clearly delusional, and sometimes scam money from their followers. Moved to Frauds.
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Thank you
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howdy --
I was a member about a year or 2 ago and jus re-registered -- I had a sort of a "meltdown" -- but I am feeling better now. :)
There is a FAKE Cherokee ceremonial group based out of New York. It was talked about back when I was a member previously.
Also about the Saponitown forum that was mentioned by one poster -- it was one reason I quit posting here before -- they call themselves "Eastern Blackfoot". There ARE problems with that site. One poster there especially calls himself Cherokee Blackfoot.
One of the men who helped organize a state recognized tribe (Occoneechi Band of the Saponi Nation) -- recognized in North Carolina -- he recently wrote me an email in which he said --
Hi Vance,
Good to hear from you..
I have not read Saponitown in over 4 months. I decided it was an aggrevation I could do without Too many folks on there are not interested in actual research, just fairy tales. I'm on my way out the door for SC. I'll try to write more when I get back.
[his name]
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I’d like o note in some states, state recognition is more of a tourist attraction (I can back that up with my experiences) than actual tribes. However I have heard state recognition in North Carolina is a far more rigorous task.
I always kept the posers at the saponitown forum in line -- that is when someone would post something weird about having a (dream that proved they wre part Indian for instance) I’d always post something to get off that train of thought and expose it as nonsense. Now when that happens noone responds so I suppose they have more such conversations.
I feel vindicated in my attitude about that forum. I was once a moderator of the history section of that forum. I disagreed with some comments of th board owner (Linda Carter)and she deleted me in one day. I think she reinstated me but I never tested it to see if she did -- I have NOT posted again and I never will. I complained here about that group, but after that one very good and honest person on that forum asked me not to press the issue as they’d try to improve it, so I backed off. However in doing so it probably made me look foolish. I baced down because of thatb request only. I quit my own Chickamauga history research (to counter fake Cherokee groups -- in theory) at the same time. I'd lost my focus. Most posters seemed trying to prove the fake Cherokee history was correct and it was always a struggle with them to keep it going, anyhow.
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Enough on that. Folks at Saponitown Forum believe the Saponi were once called “Eastern Blackfoot???. They have come up with 2 references in historical documents where the term “Blackfoot??? was used. Lie mos bad research, they combine a "little" real documentation with nonsense. People see the documentaion in one part and ignore the fact that other parts are NOT documented or cited at all -- just speculation.
Dagsboro (spelling unsure) on the Md/De border was called “Blacfoot Town??? in its earliest days. There is a church in the southernmost parts of Indiana called “Blackfoot Church“, organized in the 1790s. A placque on the church grounds said old timers had said that it was named after a local tribe of Indians. These are the 2 documented cases where the term "Blacfoot" is used wrt possible Indian communities.
Problem is the Saponi did NOT live on the Maryland/Delaware border. They also did NOT live in Southern Indiana! BUT -- the Nanticoke DID live on the Maryland/Delaware border when Dagsboro was called Blackfoot Town, and historical documentation says some Nanticoke migrated west with the Delaware. There is a map of the Indians of Indiana about 1810 and the Nanticoke are shown with a village in central Indiana, surrounded by Delaware. There are also Delaware, Shawnee and Miami communities found on the southern tip of Indiana, near where that church was located. If there ever were a small community of Indians called “Eastern Blackfoot??? it might have been Nanticoke -- just speculation. There are many people East of the Mississippi who claim their ancestors said they were “Blackfoot??? Indians. Make of this what you will.
Many people also claim to be Cherokee in the same geographical region.
As for the turban, there are historical records of several Southeastern tribes who wore turbans. Some of these folks are making the most of that I suppose.
Al, I guess I'm back.
vh
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Hi Al this has always been my petpeeve because i from the
Blackfeet/Hunkpapa -Lakota nation and I get calls from
people wanting to get enrolled or for me to help them
find some research. They ususally start out if my great-great
great great great grandfather/grandmother was Blackfeet/cherokee.
I have to tell them we have no relationship with the cherokee and they\
are not from my Nation.
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Found it via google!
The Prussians were the indigenous population of Prussia, that much is true. Their cousins were e.g. Lithuanians and Latvians; the languages and cultures were related. The languages belong to the Baltic branch of Indo-European languages, i.e. they are neither Germanic nor Slavic. The Prussians were organized in seven tribes who recognized being related but who were acting independent of each other and according to reports led by chiefs.
When the Templar Knights were sent to the region today known as East Prussia (its Northern part belongs to Russia today, its Southern part to Poland) to conquer and mission in the 12th century, the Prussians eventually were defeated and their land taken, and they became second-class citizens in their home country. Prussian was spoken until mid-18th century, but then it ceased to exist as a spoken language (whereas the language of my ancestors, Masurian, ceased to be spoken after 1945). When the reign of the Templar Knights ended, Prussia became a region which saw massive immigration from the German countries. Especially under King Frederic the Great, lots of immigrants poured in, as he offered security for Protestants who were harassed by authorities in their home countries (e.g. France and Austria, but
also many German states).
The Prussians were assimilated into the new population emerging of immigrants coming from more or less all over Europe. This means they do not exist as an ethnic entity today and have not for several hundreds of years. Thus they are not mentioned in the special status given to minorities in Germany (like Friesians, Sorbs, and Danes).
I googled a bit more, since East Prussia is a highly popular issue among some of our Nazi groups and parties who want the region back claiming the Germans brought so much culture into the country (now, this may sound familiar to ndns....). Though I never heard of any extreme right weirdos declaring themselves as the "People of Prussia", there might have been a chance such a group does exist. Nope. So, as I said above, this alleged recognition is nothing but B.S.
The Lithuanians were Indo-Iranian (Cimmerians). The Latvians were Finno-Urgic.
The Knights of St. John and Hospitalers went to Prussia after getting a sound thrashing from the Magyars ( i.e. Hungarians another Finno-Urgic group). The Templars stayed in the Middle East.
The originial Prussians were the "Prusi"( Finno-Urgic) who were nomadic raiders who also "went Viking". Wends and Poles (Slavic) farmers came in later and a trade interchange began.
The Prusi stoutly refused to be coverted to Catholicism and after a 4 decade war were anniliated. Survivors were absorbed by the Wends and Poles. Prussia than became a German Military State who provided soldiers/ Mercenarys (Landsnecht) to anybody who would have them.
The Prussians ( who were Lutheran) later only minimally supported the Nazis ( who were staunch Catholics) and the "Nazi hotbed myth" was spread by the Russians as a excuse to go in and slaughter them to the last man,woman, and child. ( see Kalingrad).
Never trust the internet for history. Visit a library............
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I beg to differ:
The Lithuanians were Indo-Iranian (Cimmerians). The Latvians were Finno-Urgic.
Lithuanians, Latvians, and Prus belong(ed) to the Baltic subgroup of Indo-European languages. Quite incidentially, the Latvians' names of their traditional gods are very closely related to the names of the Prussian gods (which my grandfather told me about), e.g. Prussian 'Perkunos' and Latvian
'Perkunas'.
The Finno-Ugric language group in that region is represented by Finnish and Estonian.
Prussian is regarded an archaic language which kept some forms also found in Sanskrit.
The originial Prussians were the "Prusi"( Finno-Urgic) who were nomadic raiders who also "went Viking". Wends and Poles (Slavic) farmers came in later and a trade interchange began.
The original Prus (pronounced like 'prooss'), or 'Prusai' in their own language, were not nomadic nor raiders by the time the colonization began, nor were they Finno-Ugric. They were farming the land and keeping animals. A different, but related tribe, the Curonians, made a living on fishing; there are still Curonians living in the area of the Curonian Lagoon. They still exist, live in the same place, and their boats still have the same characteristic looks. They are related to the Prus linguistically.
Agriculture, however, was how the Prus won their living, with fields owned collectively. The Prus were organized in twelve tribes acting autonomously, and their languages apparently differed, as some of them are classified as East Baltic while others are West Baltic.
A trade interchange already existed in the times of the Roman Empire which imported amber from the Prus.
The Wends did not get into Prussia. 'Wends' is a term for a multitude of Slavic peoples living in regions later on conquered by the Germans when they crossed the river Elbe, and it is also the name of a Slavic remnant population living in North Germany at the river Elbe still today. Historically, there was a Slavic population of several tribes from South of Kiel along the Baltic Sea to Pomerania. This Slavic population still exist today and some of them have a minority status (e.g. the Sorbs South-East of Berlin, with approx 30,000 speakers of the Sorbic language). Another tribe still around today are the Kashubians in Poland with approx 50,000 speakers of their original (Slavic) language.
As to your claim the Prus 'went Viking' - if that is to say they were plundering and pillaging seafarers: no way.
The description of the Prus as 'nomadic raiders' is about as truthful and based on facts as the similar decription of ndn nations - raiding is not all that sufficient and profitable a job when it comes to the survival of an entire population who want their meals somewhat regularly.
The Prusi stoutly refused to be coverted to Catholicism and after a 4 decade war were anniliated. Survivors were absorbed by the Wends and Poles.
Nope. Prussian was a spoken language until about 1750 which is quite a bit longer than four decades after the begin of the conquest. The population did not become extinct but exists beyond that date which merely indicates the point in time when the language was no longer used in every-day life. The Prus were not annihilated as a people, but lost their land and political autonomy, they were assimilated.
Not all Prus refused to become Catholic. There is one region, called 'Ermland'/Warmia, which was predominantly Catholic as compared to the rest of the Prus country which turned predominantly Protestant. Furthermore, although the towns founded did not accept Prus, Lithuanians, etc as inhabitants, the rural population was predominantly Prussian for several centuries; while at first they were able to keep their lands unconditionally, later on the possession of land was only possible for converts.
After four decades of Prussian fight against the Knights, the Prus were defeated militarily, and it is said that only 50% of the original population were left. It is however unknown how many of the other half was killed and how many wandered off to Lithuania or Latvia.
In fact the Prussian language became extinct with the increased immigration of Protestants from all over Europe to Prussia, and eventually German became the common language. However, the dialect spoken kept Prussian words, and especially family names. The dialect spoken in Prussia until 1945 was a mixture of German dialects with some Prussian and a few Slavic words.
Prussia than became a German Military State who provided soldiers/ Mercenarys (Landsnecht) to anybody who would have them.
Not quite. The country came under the reign of the Princes of Brandenburg who were Electors (i.e. belonged to the nobility electing the rulers of Germany).
Eventually, one of them became more ambitious and wanted to be a king, so he crowned himself a king in the Prussian town of Koenigsberg (i.e. 'King's Mountain, today Kaliningrad). However, the title was not accepted by the German nobility, so the title originally was 'King *in* Prussia', i.e. they had the right to call themselves king only when in their Prussian domain. Some time during the 18th century, this was changed to King of Prussia.
One of them in fact did earn the byname of 'Soldier King', but not for selling and providing mercenaries, but for building a huge army. In fact he *bought* soldiers all over Europe, or had his agents abduct persons, especially men of more than 1,80 metres which were forced to join his special units of so-called 'tall guys'.
There were German states which sold mercenaries to anyone able to pay and in need of an army, but Prussia did not belong to them.
The Prussians ( who were Lutheran) later only minimally supported the Nazis ( who were staunch Catholics) and the "Nazi hotbed myth" was spread by the Russians as a excuse to go in and slaughter them to the last man,woman, and child. ( see Kalingrad).
Support of the Nazis was - as much as I regret to say this - not less and not more spread than elsewhere in Germany. The Nazis were not staunch Catholics (in fact, some of them tried to 'revive' a Germanic religion, or rather what they took for Germanic spirituality), even though they had an agreement, the so-called Concordate, with the Vatican which was done as a gesture of appeasement. We owe it to these times to pay church taxes to the state still today which then transfers the money to both the Catholic and the Lutheran church (today 8 resp 9% of what you pay in income tax).
The Russians in fact needed no excuse or myth other than what they saw in their home country on their advance as the Nazi army retreated. Campaigns like 'Burnt Ground' had led to the slaughtering of tens of thousands civilians in Russia, in the Ukraina, in Belarus.
However, the remaining Prussian population was *not* slaughtered to the last man, woman, and child. There are still persons of German, Masurian, and Curonian ethnicity living in both parts of Prussia (the North is Russian, the South is Polish). As the Nazis had ordered East Prussia to act as a 'Fortress', the population was forbidden to flee when the Soviet army advanced. The head Nazi in Koenigsberg, by the name of Koch, happened to pack up and escape right after he issued this verdict.... So many tried to make an escape in a desperate last-minute attempt, my family among them. My great-grandmother was killed in a nightly aircraft attack on a treck across the frozen Vistula Lagoon, and my grandmother only survived because she was not allowed on the same cart as g-grandma, at the age of 45 she was supposed to be young and fit enough to walk.
A friend of my father's got lost when his family tried to leave Prussia, he was about 7 years then, and he grew up in an orphanage in the Russian part of Prussia. His family kept looking for him with the help of the Red Cross and found him by the end of the 50ies, so he was allowed to join them in West Germany.
Never trust the internet for history. Visit a library..........
Which one did you happen to use?
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I beg to differ:
The Lithuanians were Indo-Iranian (Cimmerians). The Latvians were Finno-Urgic.
Lithuanians, Latvians, and Prus belong(ed) to the Baltic subgroup of Indo-European languages. Quite incidentially, the Latvians' names of their traditional gods are very closely related to the names of the Prussian gods (which my grandfather told me about), e.g. Prussian 'Perkunos' and Latvian
'Perkunas'.
The Finno-Ugric language group in that region is represented by Finnish and Estonian.
Prussian is regarded an archaic language which kept some forms also found in Sanskrit.
The originial Prussians were the "Prusi"( Finno-Urgic) who were nomadic raiders who also "went Viking". Wends and Poles (Slavic) farmers came in later and a trade interchange began.
The original Prus (pronounced like 'prooss'), or 'Prusai' in their own language, were not nomadic nor raiders by the time the colonization began, nor were they Finno-Ugric. They were farming the land and keeping animals. A different, but related tribe, the Curonians, made a living on fishing; there are still Curonians living in the area of the Curonian Lagoon. They still exist, live in the same place, and their boats still have the same characteristic looks. They are related to the Prus linguistically.
Agriculture, however, was how the Prus won their living, with fields owned collectively. The Prus were organized in twelve tribes acting autonomously, and their languages apparently differed, as some of them are classified as East Baltic while others are West Baltic.
A trade interchange already existed in the times of the Roman Empire which imported amber from the Prus.
The Wends did not get into Prussia. 'Wends' is a term for a multitude of Slavic peoples living in regions later on conquered by the Germans when they crossed the river Elbe, and it is also the name of a Slavic remnant population living in North Germany at the river Elbe still today. Historically, there was a Slavic population of several tribes from South of Kiel along the Baltic Sea to Pomerania. This Slavic population still exist today and some of them have a minority status (e.g. the Sorbs South-East of Berlin, with approx 30,000 speakers of the Sorbic language). Another tribe still around today are the Kashubians in Poland with approx 50,000 speakers of their original (Slavic) language.
As to your claim the Prus 'went Viking' - if that is to say they were plundering and pillaging seafarers: no way.
The description of the Prus as 'nomadic raiders' is about as truthful and based on facts as the similar decription of ndn nations - raiding is not all that sufficient and profitable a job when it comes to the survival of an entire population who want their meals somewhat regularly.
The Prusi stoutly refused to be coverted to Catholicism and after a 4 decade war were anniliated. Survivors were absorbed by the Wends and Poles.
Nope. Prussian was a spoken language until about 1750 which is quite a bit longer than four decades after the begin of the conquest. The population did not become extinct but exists beyond that date which merely indicates the point in time when the language was no longer used in every-day life. The Prus were not annihilated as a people, but lost their land and political autonomy, they were assimilated.
Not all Prus refused to become Catholic. There is one region, called 'Ermland'/Warmia, which was predominantly Catholic as compared to the rest of the Prus country which turned predominantly Protestant. Furthermore, although the towns founded did not accept Prus, Lithuanians, etc as inhabitants, the rural population was predominantly Prussian for several centuries; while at first they were able to keep their lands unconditionally, later on the possession of land was only possible for converts.
After four decades of Prussian fight against the Knights, the Prus were defeated militarily, and it is said that only 50% of the original population were left. It is however unknown how many of the other half was killed and how many wandered off to Lithuania or Latvia.
In fact the Prussian language became extinct with the increased immigration of Protestants from all over Europe to Prussia, and eventually German became the common language. However, the dialect spoken kept Prussian words, and especially family names. The dialect spoken in Prussia until 1945 was a mixture of German dialects with some Prussian and a few Slavic words.
Prussia than became a German Military State who provided soldiers/ Mercenarys (Landsnecht) to anybody who would have them.
Not quite. The country came under the reign of the Princes of Brandenburg who were Electors (i.e. belonged to the nobility electing the rulers of Germany).
Eventually, one of them became more ambitious and wanted to be a king, so he crowned himself a king in the Prussian town of Koenigsberg (i.e. 'King's Mountain, today Kaliningrad). However, the title was not accepted by the German nobility, so the title originally was 'King *in* Prussia', i.e. they had the right to call themselves king only when in their Prussian domain. Some time during the 18th century, this was changed to King of Prussia.
One of them in fact did earn the byname of 'Soldier King', but not for selling and providing mercenaries, but for building a huge army. In fact he *bought* soldiers all over Europe, or had his agents abduct persons, especially men of more than 1,80 metres which were forced to join his special units of so-called 'tall guys'.
There were German states which sold mercenaries to anyone able to pay and in need of an army, but Prussia did not belong to them.
The Prussians ( who were Lutheran) later only minimally supported the Nazis ( who were staunch Catholics) and the "Nazi hotbed myth" was spread by the Russians as a excuse to go in and slaughter them to the last man,woman, and child. ( see Kalingrad).
Support of the Nazis was - as much as I regret to say this - not less and not more spread than elsewhere in Germany. The Nazis were not staunch Catholics (in fact, some of them tried to 'revive' a Germanic religion, or rather what they took for Germanic spirituality), even though they had an agreement, the so-called Concordate, with the Vatican which was done as a gesture of appeasement. We owe it to these times to pay church taxes to the state still today which then transfers the money to both the Catholic and the Lutheran church (today 8 resp 9% of what you pay in income tax).
The Russians in fact needed no excuse or myth other than what they saw in their home country on their advance as the Nazi army retreated. Campaigns like 'Burnt Ground' had led to the slaughtering of tens of thousands civilians in Russia, in the Ukraina, in Belarus.
However, the remaining Prussian population was *not* slaughtered to the last man, woman, and child. There are still persons of German, Masurian, and Curonian ethnicity living in both parts of Prussia (the North is Russian, the South is Polish). As the Nazis had ordered East Prussia to act as a 'Fortress', the population was forbidden to flee when the Soviet army advanced. The head Nazi in Koenigsberg, by the name of Koch, happened to pack up and escape right after he issued this verdict.... So many tried to make an escape in a desperate last-minute attempt, my family among them. My great-grandmother was killed in a nightly aircraft attack on a treck across the frozen Vistula Lagoon, and my grandmother only survived because she was not allowed on the same cart as g-grandma, at the age of 45 she was supposed to be young and fit enough to walk.
A friend of my father's got lost when his family tried to leave Prussia, he was about 7 years then, and he grew up in an orphanage in the Russian part of Prussia. His family kept looking for him with the help of the Red Cross and found him by the end of the 50ies, so he was allowed to join them in West Germany.
Never trust the internet for history. Visit a library..........
Which one did you happen to use?
The thunder god was Perun. He was the equivalent of Thor. He was worship by all three ethnic groups in the area.
The hotbed of Nazism was Barvaria which in fact consisted of germanized Magyars who beat Otto and settled.
The Catholic Church ran the "rat lines" which assisted Nazis in escaping into South America and Hitler had his own papal appointed confessor.
I mixed up the Estonians with the Latvians and made a few other booboos. My mistakes but I am drawing from memory of studies I did in the eighties.
My stepmother, Margo's mother was crucified to her barn door by the Russian Army. She was Lutheran, and anti-Nazi. I heard about the Vistula Crossing and the attempt to save the Trekkner? horses (My stepmother witness this as a small girl). Hence my interest in the Baltic and Central Europe.
Your never corrected your statement about the Templars.
Libraries- PYM, Swarthmore
edit: plus hearing all the "glory stories" about the Hussars and horse breeding.
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What does any of this have to do with the thread topic?
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What does any of this have to do with the thread topic?
Sorry Barnaby. We both realized this and switched our conversation to PMing.
Just a note: My source, Otho, Papal Legatus of the Teutonic Knights Order was wrong.
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howdy -- I recently posted here (a month or 2 back) and am juts reading responses.
For those who don't know me, I have spent more time trying to debun the term "Cherokee Blackfoot" probably more than anyone on the internet. There are TONS of FAKE Cherokee histories and "tribes" all over the internet, and since Mike Johnson -- my buddy in debunking them -- I recently heard has passed away -- somebody has to continue his fight on line.
This is directed to Earthw7 mostly. Howdy -- I saw what you said about the Siouan Blackfoot. Once I was behind that "Saponitown forum" that I mentioned, but they get too easily into "guessing" and after "guessing" a few months about some historical effect it becomes to them, a "fact". Once that forum was better than it is now, but they are ostly both White's and Black's "playing at" being Indian, any more. It is one hthing to have a little Indian blood, but it is another to create a fake culture that you were not raised in, and lay a claim to it. I draw a line between having "a little Indian blood" and becoming a spokespeson for a tribal culture I have only read about in history books. They don't make this distinction. Therefore i no longer affiliate myself with them. Is this imposrant? I really don't know if it is important to others, but it is important to me.
They state that these "Eastern Blackfoot", if there ever was such a thing, are Siouan, as the Saponi are related to the Catawba. They say some of these Eastern Siouan peoples may have migratd back West while theirs stayes in the Middle/Southern Appalachians and their eastern slopes. They say the fact that there ARE Siouan people who ARE known as Blacfoot is strong supporting evidence. As I said, a little evidence to them, after repeating it amongst themselves for a few months, becomes a fact. If you read their website, they mention Siouan words, and say the word Saponi even has its roots in your word for "Blackfoot". I'd like to know if what they say is tue or not. I suspect it is full of half truths and guesses.
This next bit is for Nanticokepiney -- howdy. Did you read my earlier post here about a possible orignin for the term Eastern Blackfoot"? I have done quite a lot of historical research on the term "Eastern Blackfoot" I have found only 2 references -- historical -- to any Eastern Blackfoot and I mentioned both of them in my first post, a month or 2 back.
Now from my research I found the Nanticoke migrating westward and they became pretty much absorbed by the Delaware by the time they were in Indiana. The Delaware went on to Missouri, Kansas and NE Oklahoma (one band went to Arkansas and NE Tx for a while. They are the Delaware Tribe of Western Oklahoma today, based out of Anadaro). But the others are in NE Oklahoma today. The Delawqare migrated westward with other Algonquin groups, Miami and Shawnee and others (including references to the Nanticoke). I never saw any reference to Nanticoke in Oklahoma, however, making me think they were totally absorbed at some time, by the Delaware perhaps between Indiana (where they are mentioned) and Missouri where have yet to find a reference of the Nanticoke). Have you heard of any "Nanticoke Blackfoot" traditions? If that idea can be put to rest, the whole "Eastern Blackfoot" legend might be put out of its misery, as well.
I am QUITE certain there are NO "Cherokee Blackfoot" -- one more FAKE concept that needs its own trophy on the hall of shame.
vh
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howdy -- I recently posted here (a month or 2 back) and am juts reading responses.
For those who don't know me, I have spent more time trying to debun the term "Cherokee Blackfoot" probably more than anyone on the internet. There are TONS of FAKE Cherokee histories and "tribes" all over the internet, and since Mike Johnson -- my buddy in debunking them -- I recently heard has passed away -- somebody has to continue his fight on line.
This is directed to Earthw7 mostly. Howdy -- I saw what you said about the Siouan Blackfoot. Once I was behind that "Saponitown forum" that I mentioned, but they get too easily into "guessing" and after "guessing" a few months about some historical effect it becomes to them, a "fact". Once that forum was better than it is now, but they are ostly both White's and Black's "playing at" being Indian, any more. It is one hthing to have a little Indian blood, but it is another to create a fake culture that you were not raised in, and lay a claim to it. I draw a line between having "a little Indian blood" and becoming a spokespeson for a tribal culture I have only read about in history books. They don't make this distinction. Therefore i no longer affiliate myself with them. Is this imposrant? I really don't know if it is important to others, but it is important to me.
They state that these "Eastern Blackfoot", if there ever was such a thing, are Siouan, as the Saponi are related to the Catawba. They say some of these Eastern Siouan peoples may have migratd back West while theirs stayes in the Middle/Southern Appalachians and their eastern slopes. They say the fact that there ARE Siouan people who ARE known as Blacfoot is strong supporting evidence. As I said, a little evidence to them, after repeating it amongst themselves for a few months, becomes a fact. If you read their website, they mention Siouan words, and say the word Saponi even has its roots in your word for "Blackfoot". I'd like to know if what they say is tue or not. I suspect it is full of half truths and guesses.
This next bit is for Nanticokepiney -- howdy. Did you read my earlier post here about a possible orignin for the term Eastern Blackfoot"? I have done quite a lot of historical research on the term "Eastern Blackfoot" I have found only 2 references -- historical -- to any Eastern Blackfoot and I mentioned both of them in my first post, a month or 2 back.
Now from my research I found the Nanticoke migrating westward and they became pretty much absorbed by the Delaware by the time they were in Indiana. The Delaware went on to Missouri, Kansas and NE Oklahoma (one band went to Arkansas and NE Tx for a while. They are the Delaware Tribe of Western Oklahoma today, based out of Anadaro). But the others are in NE Oklahoma today. The Delawqare migrated westward with other Algonquin groups, Miami and Shawnee and others (including references to the Nanticoke). I never saw any reference to Nanticoke in Oklahoma, however, making me think they were totally absorbed at some time, by the Delaware perhaps between Indiana (where they are mentioned) and Missouri where have yet to find a reference of the Nanticoke). Have you heard of any "Nanticoke Blackfoot" traditions? If that idea can be put to rest, the whole "Eastern Blackfoot" legend might be put out of its misery, as well.
I am QUITE certain there are NO "Cherokee Blackfoot" -- one more FAKE concept that needs its own trophy on the hall of shame.
vh
Hi, I have never heard of the Nanticoke Blackfeet.
I know that when it comes to my people
the Lakota blackfeet, they are a band of the Lakota nation. They broke off the Dakota nation around 1400s, back then they were all Oglala, then the Burnt thigh brokes off from them we lived in the area of southern Minesota, Nebraska and Iowa at least that is where I find the oldest Lakota bands after they left the Mother tribe the Dakota in 1700s. According to our history there was no blackfeet band until they moved from the minnesota/nebraska/Iowa area. Remember blackfeet are just a band of the Lakota not a nation.
I can find no reference of this band going to the east after they establish the band on the Missouri.
the Blackfeet broke off about 1500s. I know that after the band was established from a man named Fire heart they made their homes along the Missouri river around the 1700s.
If a band traveled all the way to the east in the 1700s you would think we would have a record of it.
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howdy -- I recently posted here (a month or 2 back) and am juts reading responses.
This next bit is for Nanticokepiney -- howdy. Did you read my earlier post here about a possible orignin for the term Eastern Blackfoot"? I have done quite a lot of historical research on the term "Eastern Blackfoot" I have found only 2 references -- historical -- to any Eastern Blackfoot and I mentioned both of them in my first post, a month or 2 back.
Now from my research I found the Nanticoke migrating westward and they became pretty much absorbed by the Delaware by the time they were in Indiana. The Delaware went on to Missouri, Kansas and NE Oklahoma (one band went to Arkansas and NE Tx for a while. They are the Delaware Tribe of Western Oklahoma today, based out of Anadaro). But the others are in NE Oklahoma today. The Delawqare migrated westward with other Algonquin groups, Miami and Shawnee and others (including references to the Nanticoke). I never saw any reference to Nanticoke in Oklahoma, however, making me think they were totally absorbed at some time, by the Delaware perhaps between Indiana (where they are mentioned) and Missouri where have yet to find a reference of the Nanticoke). Have you heard of any "Nanticoke Blackfoot" traditions? If that idea can be put to rest, the whole "Eastern Blackfoot" legend might be put out of its misery, as well.
I am QUITE certain there are NO "Cherokee Blackfoot" -- one more FAKE concept that needs its own trophy on the hall of shame.
vh
There is people of Nanticoke descent who claim "Blackfoot". It apparently came from a town called "Blackfoot" where several Nanticoke families settled. I'll PM you the wordpad document and link.
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Blackfoot Town, Dagsboro, Delaware
http://www.mitsawokett.com/Blackfoot.htm
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I can agree with this to a point
the Blackfeet are just a band of Lakota
kind like a clan but we don't have clans.
They are not a nation. If a group came
the would be Lakota.
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http://www.mitsawokett.com/OriginOfBlackfoot-DE.htm
Here is another idea, the one I had mentioned to those same people at mitsawokett website. They asked permission to post it and I said "okay". I never really went back there, though, after that. It is what I mentioned earlier but in more detail.
The people quoted in the other quote from mitsawokett website are all from the www.saponitown.com/forum website . . .
The Tutelo went to Canada and lived with the Six Nations and NOT westward into Indiana where the "Blackfoot Church" is located. The Delaware were at that loaction and they were there when that church was founded. The band of Delaware in that region (S In) were the first to migrate into SE Mo, then Ar and NE Tx before going to W Ok.
vh
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http://www.native-languages.org/indiana.htm
I checked the links I'd placed on the link and the one with the map of the location of the Nanticoke and other Algonquin tribes was no longer there. The other links worked, tho. But the above website does mention that the Nanticoke were in Indiana.
I'll keep lookin for that map.
vh
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HELLO MY NAME IS FIREBIRD GRAYWOLF AND VERY PROUD TO HAVE A INDIGENOUS NAME THAT REPRESENTS MY ORIGINAL HERITAGE AND NOT FROM A NON NATIVE GIVING OUR PEOPLE EUROPEAN NAMES. I JUST HAPPEN TO COME UPON THIS SITE
AND SEE THAT PEOPLE REPORTING ABOUT THE CHEROKEE BLACKFEET CULTURAL CIRCLE INC. I JUST WANTED TO SAY TO EDUCATED INDIAN AND THE PEOPLE THAT DESCRIBED MEMBERS OR PAST MEMBERS. IT IS TOO BAD THAT YOU ONLY GOT PART OF THE INFORMATION CORRECT. EVERY ONE THAT JOINED IN HOPES TO ENHANCE OUR INDIAN HERITAGE ARE FRUADS ARE BAD SPIRITED PEOPLE. THE CHEROKEE CULTURAL CIRCLE HAD MANY DECENT PEOPLE AS MYSELF TRYING TO SHOW THE TRUE HISTORY OF NATIVE AMERICA. WE COME IN MANY LOOKS AND BACKGROUNDS
I HAVE NOT MET MANY FULL BLOODS BECAUSE OF THE SMALL NUMBERS AND EVEN PEOPLE LIVING ON RESERVATIONS MANY OF THEM HAVE MARRIED OUTSIDE. IT SEEMS THAT THE ONES WITH THE BLACK BLOOD CONSTANTLY GET BEAT UP ON. YOU SAY THEY WEAR A MIXTURE OF REGALIA. THAT IS VERY TRUE,
HOWEVER MANY INDIANS WEAR TOP HATS, CONFEDERATE COATS OR UNION, COWBOY HATS AND GLITTER WHEN THEY DANCE, BEADS MADE FROM EUROPE ETC. YET THE CONCENTRATION IS STILL ON INDIANS WITH BLACK BLOOD NOT INDIANS WITH WHITE BLOOD,CHINESE BLOOD,FRENCH BLOOD ,GERMAN BLOOD.
EACH GENERATION I SEE INDIAN FOLKS SKIN GETTING LIGHTER AND LIGHTER, BUT THE CONCENTRATION IS ON INDIANS WITH BLACK BLOOD. I THINK THAT THERE IS SOME KIND OF FEAR. IF THEY SEE INDIANS WITH BLACK BLOOD THEN MAYBE THEY WILL LOOK INTO OTHER GENE POOL. AS FAR AS THIS CHEROKEE BLACKFEET CULTURAL GROUP YOU PUT US ALL IN THE SAME KETTLE OF SOUP.
MANY OF US TOOK A CHANCE TO DO SOMETHING FOR NATIVE PRIDE. FINDING OUT THAT SOMEONE IS CROOKED CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE.ANCESTRY DOES NOT SEEM TO MATTER WHEN INDIANS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY COME UP TO CONNECTICUT TO SCHEMETZIN ON THE PEQUOT RESERVATION EVERY YEAR TO DANCE FOR BIG PRIZE MONEY. SO MANY OF THOSE MILLIONAIRE CASINO OWNING PEQUOTS HAVE BLACK BLOOD. YOU SEE WHEN YOU ARE CROOKED AS THE CASE OF THE LEADER OF THIS GROUP YOU FIND OVER EAGER PEOPLE EVERYDAY THAT WANT TO BE A PART OF THEIR BLOOD RIGHT AND THEY JOIN GROUPS LIKE THIS BECAUSE EVERYONE THAT IS INDIAN DID NOT GROW UP ON THE REZ OR CAN GET A TRIBAL CARD. SHUCKS I KNOW SOME INDIANS THAT HAVE BOUGHT LEGITMATE CARDS AND WERE NOT EVEN INDIAN OR THE NATION OF INDIAN THAT THE CARD REPRESENTS. SO IN ALL FAIRNESS DO NOT JUDGE EVERYONE IN A GROUP FOR THE ACTIONS OF ONE OR TWO PEOPLE. 8)
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Firebird? Sounds more like a Pontiac than a "Native" name. Don't start that "we niggas" crap because there is a Nanticoke on this forum (me) and we have one of the highest percentage of black blood. ( My granny was a Cuff - see Ashanti: "Kofi")
A tribe is a contiuous community of interrelated people and if a Indian is what he says he is his tribe would accept that. "Blackfoot" is a slang term for Nanticokes Moors and Monacans. Sometimes the Brass Ankles will use it. There were never any Cherokee Blackfoot.
Also, your spelling, grammer and punctuations sucks. I suggest you return to school.
Rich Joseph - Niggacoke
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FG, being new you will have better luck if you practice basic politeness and read the guidelines we have first.
Being polite means no posting in all caps. Just trying to read your post gives me a headache.
Ironically, your post mostly agreed with us, that the leaders are frauds. Just being interested in your heritage doesn't give you an excuse to ignore facts that you could easily see find in any history book, much less by going to any actual Native forum online.
I really have wonder, just how could you believe all the crazy claims about Moors and avatars and "Asiatic aboriginals"?
The guidelines include trying to get the thread in the right section and not starting new ones without good reason. So your thread was merged with the original one and kept where it belongs.
And BTW, almost all of the threads in here have been on frauds who preyed mostly on whites, simply because the US is mostly white. The Europeans they prey on, as well as the tourists in Latin America preyed on, are mostly white.
One thing I have noticed is a greater tendency towards dangerous cults among Nuage frauds who prey on Blacks, where the ones that prey on whites often just take the money at a weekend seminar and run.
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I really have wonder, just how could you believe all the crazy claims about Moors?
I hear that a lot at powwows and gatherings. It burns my butt. The slang term for my particular group is "Moors". Several people have actually taken this literally. When it was nothing but a old Cheswold folktale (with no historical evidence whatsoever) explaining our origins.
I was also irked with that "race card".
"Your picking on us cause we're part black!"
It won't work with me because I am too..........
Edit: Hey Firebird! Thanks for having your friend (or is it you) send me such kind email through my forum. Lets argue the point here. ;D
Edit 2: I started a thread in my forum too 8)
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I guess nothing more to said to ol firebird he is already in the fraud site
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One of her lackys joined, then emailed me through my aunt's forum revealing all their personal info. I guess they were trying to be sneaky. I am not the type to blow somebody's personal info, who wants to remain hidden ,across the web but I do have it if needed.
http://woodlandindians.org/forums/index.php
In the "Who are these people" section, I started my own thread.
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Saponi: Evidently a corruption of Monasiccapano or Monasukapanough,
which, as shown by Bushnell, is probably derived in part from a native
term "moni-seep" signifying "shallow water." Paanese is a corruption
and in no way connected with the word "Pawnee."
Connections: The Saponi belonged to the Siouan linguistic family,
their nearest relations being the Tutelo.
Location: The earliest known location of the Saponi has been
identified by Bushnell (1930) with high probability with "an extensive
village site on the banks of the Rivanna, in Albemarle County,
directly north of the University of Virginia and about one-half mile
up the river from the bridge of the Southern Railway." This was their
location when, if ever, they formed a part of the Monacan Confederacy.
(See also North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and New York.)
Villages: The principal Saponi settlement usually bore the same name
as the tribe or, at least, it has survived to us under that name. In
1670 Lederer reports another which he visited called Pintahae,
situated not far from the main Saponi town after it had been removed
to Otter Creek, southwest of the present Lynchburg (Lederer, 1912),
but this was probably the Nahyssan town.
History: As first pointed out by Mooney (1895), the Saponi tribe is
identical with the Monasukapanough which appears on Smith's map as
though it were a town of the Monacan and may in fact have been such.
Before 1670, and probably between 1650 and 1660, they moved to the
southwest and probably settled on Otter Creek, as above indicated. In
1670 they were visited by Lederer in their new home and by Thomas
Batts (1912) a year later. Not long afterward they and the Tutelo
moved to the junction of the Staunton and Dan Rivers, where each
occupied an island in Roanoke River in Mecklenburg County. This
movement was to enable them to escape the attacks of the Iroquois, and
for the same reason they again moved south before 1701, when Lawson
(1860) found them on Yadkin River near the present site of Salisbury,
N. C. Soon afterward they left this place and gravitated toward the
White settlements in Virginia. They evidently crossed Roanoke River
before the Tuscarora War of 1711, establishing themselves a short
distance east of it and 15 miles west of the present Windsor, Bertie
County, N. C. A little later they, along with the Tutelo and some
other tribes, were placed by Governor Spotswood near Fort Christanna,
10 miles north of Roanoke River about the present Gholsonville,
Brunswick County. The name of Sappony Creek in Dinwiddie County,
dating back to 1733 at least, indicates that they sometimes extended
their excursions north of Nottoway River. By the treaty of Albany
(1722) the Iroquois agreed to stop incursions on the Virginia Indians
and, probably about 1740, the greater part of the Saponi and the
Tutelo moved north stopping for a time at Shamokin, Pa., about the
site of Sunbury. One band, however, remained in the south, in
Granville County, N. C., until at least 1756, when they comprised 14
men and 14 women. In 1753 the Cayuga Iroquois formally adopted this
tribe and the Tutelo. Some of them remained on the upper waters of the
Susquehanna in Pennsylvania until 1778, but in 1771 the principal
section had their village in the territory of the Cayuga, about 2
miles south of Ithaca, N. Y. They are said to have separated from the
Tutelo in 1779 at Niagara, when the latter fled to Canada, and to have
become lost, but a portion, at least, were living with the Cayuga on
Seneca River in Seneca County, N. Y., in 1780. Besides the Person
County Indians, a band of Saponi Indians remained behind in North
Carolina which seems to have fused with the Tuscarora, Meherrin, and
Machapunga and gone north with them in 1802.
What this means in essence is that the Saponi Tribe does not existanymore. They were adopted into other tribes and were no longer a
distinct entity...
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Gee, in your quest to prove someone as fruads you helped them get land by them proving so much Black Indian connection. I am not your enemy but it seems [lies and insults], why does the Cherokee Blackfeet Circle Inc. [lies and insults removed] they have prospered, look at their website and new land.
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Please do some research on the Ancient History of America and read Lewis and Clarks Journal
where it states that they saw wooley haired black people originals of this land we call America. I would love to see you all in New York City, Another book you should read is BOTH SIDES of the water by Lonnie Harrington you can buy it on line or Barnes and Noble came out last year. You people make fun of my name Firebird which is English for Phoenix but what is a Crystal Water, that sounds really NU-AGE.
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It seems Linda/fgraywolf is determined to spam in order to get everyone's attention and make some further bizarre claims. She started two new threads and posted to this in addition to emailing the mods.
The threads were merged. Grow up and quit spamming us. And contrary to what you and your ego seem to believe, we haven't spent hardly any time on you.
Somehow, you bizarrely imagine we are to blame for everything a fraud group does. Obviously any blame for what you claim has happened goes to
1) the group that carried out the fraudulent action and
2) the govt agency that did such a poor job of research they gave money to an obvious fraudulent group.
It's probably a lack of oversight and/or some elected offifical's desire to pander to Black voters with stories (some true, some not) of Native ancestry that ld to any funds being granted. I seriously doubt they were given a rez, more likely they got money to buy a few acres from some naive source. (Perhaps including their own membership.)
If you're so concerned about this, why not at least show us some evidence of what you claim has happened? Better yet, if a grant was awarded fraudulently, why not join us in trying to get the grant revoked?
The book you mentioned has this publisher's description:
"Both Sides of the Water: Essays on African-Native American Interactions examines specific events regarding the relationship between groups of indigenous people of the Western Hemisphere and people of African descent. Covering historical and contemporary times, the book covers events in the Americas, Caribbean, and Africa. These relations are placed in context and explored against the backdrop of social/political circumstances that have influenced and continue to influence these interactions."
That subject is not even controversial. Ask any Seminole, Pequot, etc. You might be interested in Gary Nash's book Red White and Black.
And actually, it was the Nex Perce who described seeing Blacks with the Lewis and Clark Expedition not the other way around. That, according to a Nez Perce storyteller I heard giving a talk.
Edit: Found the alleged "grant" you mentioned on their site. "They have land," as you put it, gives an exagerrated impression of what they did. They bought a small chicken ranch in Maine. From the photos it looks to be less than five acres and a couple small buildings.
No mention of any outside money coming in, not from govt sources. They give the impression they pooled their money and bought it. THey talk of the hope that their food prices will go down. So my guess is they received the money mostly from donations from their not-very-well-off members.
Incidentally, it happened a few months after your previous outburst.
You say you're in New York, but your email says your "Arizona Tsalagi."
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Here's an update I ran upon by complete chance. Apparently these guys are relocating headquarters to farmland in Lee, Maine and putting on a powwow there. Kind of funny...it's in the middle of nowhere, but it's also directly in the middle of the Penobscot and Passamaquoddy reservations in Maine. Just wondering if anyone in Maine has heard of these guys moving in. They still hold on to false and made up beliefs. The flyer on the website calls their event a "Traditional North Eastern Native American Alqonquin Powwow".
Names still remain the same....Chief Red Deer, Chief Eagle Spirit Dancer and storytelling by Margareita Shining Moon. :-\
Their "traditional Alqonquin Powwow" also consists of Aztec dancers and a $7.00 admission fee.
While they've obtained land in Maine their "tribal office" still operates out of NYC.
The even is scheduled for July 31-Aug2 of this year. If everyone remembers these guys are another non-profit group formed in the 90's and attempting to appear as a legitimate tribal nation. If I remember correctly, they were attempting to acquire land as part of their "case" for recognition. Why they chose Maine is beyond me, as their is absolutely no ties to Cherokees or Blackfeet in that area or even close to that area. Just a heads up for anyone out that way....they've slithered in.
Powwow flyer and info here:
http://cherokeeblackfeetcultural.bizopiaweb.com/Default.aspx?tabid=668508
pics of the acquired farm here and some of their members here:
http://cherokeeblackfeetcultural.bizopiaweb.com/Default.aspx?tabid=744826
Superdog
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One of her lackys joined, then emailed me through my aunt's forum revealing all their personal info. I guess they were trying to be sneaky. I am not the type to blow somebody's personal info, who wants to remain hidden ,across the web but I do have it if needed.
http://woodlandindians.org/forums/index.php
In the "Who are these people" section, I started my own thread.
I tried to find this thread w/o success, can you please point me in the right direction/ Thanks....