Author Topic: Acadian Metis ?  (Read 71111 times)

nighthawk

  • Guest
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2009, 06:20:03 am »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:07:36 am by nighthawk »

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2009, 03:04:56 am »
Hi Nighthawk...

In reference to your comments below...

Quote
There were no French from France women traipsing around in the bush hunting caribou or even pigeons with small children and infants in tow, they wouldn't have survived or known how to survive.

Quote
Anyone who had ancestors living in the Maritimes prior to 1763 is a descendant of Indigenous peoples and is Indigenous themselves.

It seems these "facts" are the basis for a lot of your other beliefs.

However, I have done more research since when I first started this thread, and i don't think these are facts at all.

From all the evidence i have seen , the large majority of Acadian settlers who left descentents in the Acadian community were French men with French wives ...

IMO , the information in the links below is basically correct.

http://www.acadian-home.org/acadian-origins.html

Quote
On the level of racial origins, there is a source which provides a considerable amount of information. This is a series of fifty eight despositions of the heads of Acadian families that were taken down on Belle-Isle-en-mer between Feb 15 and March 12, 1767
(continues with very detailed oral testimonies about Acadian family origins, that were given in 1767 ...)

According to these testimonies, the large majority of the first Acadian settlers had French wives. This conclusion is supported by many old records and recent mtDNA findings.

In the link below is the mtDNA results for many of the women who have long been rumoured to have been Native. In the 33 distant female ancestors investigated through mtDNa, only 6 turned out to be of Native descent. 
 
http://www.acadian-home.org/origins-mtdna.html

As these investigations seem to be focusing on women who were not proven to be French in other records , I think thes mtDNA tests probably found more matrilineal lines that went to a native ancestor , than would be found in the average Acadian with many ancestors who were well documented as originating in France. 

The link below has long lists of patrilineal and matrilineal DNA results for people of French Canadian / Acadian descent.

The website seems a bit difficult to access at the moment, but I went over it a few months back, and it shows a long list of results of mtDNA and Y DNA tests done on people who's French ancestors were the first non native residents of Quebec or Acadia.

Almost all the patrilineal lines of people tested were French and only one in 20 of the matrilineal lines of the people tested had origins on this continent.
 
http://www.frenchdna.org/ENG-results.htm

People with distant Native ancestry probably get DNA tests more frequently than people who know their matrilineal line is proven to be French - so if we assume this one in 20 is an avaerage within the french canadin population that is probably higher than the real average, but this would probaly reflect the average French Canadain being about 1/40 or 2% indigenous descent ....     

While the family biographies of the first settlers in Quebec below doesn't cite sources, I did go over some of the details a while ago and found most of the claims to be reasonably accurate .

http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/quebec_realfirst.html

There was a lot of men who came from France without wives, however, for the most part, if these men found wives amoungst the indigenous peoples it would appear that is where their children remained.

And there is probably a reason for this...

In the 1600's , the majority of Acadian / French Canadian families with 2 French parents had large families on average of about 8 children.

When the woman is known to have been Native, it seems French men rarely managed to father more than one child with their Native partner,  before she died.  Perhaps in the early years of the first French settlements, the Native women and possibly their children were very vulnerable to the diseases carried by the French.

If these childrens mothers did not survive, it seems likely they would have usually been raised by the mothers relatives and grown up as members of a Native community.

Quote
Metis (with an acute accent on the "e" which I can't do on this keyboard) is from a french word meaning "half" shorthand for "half-breed".

So why would that also apply to someone who is very slightly mixed from way way back ?

Unless there is strong support from the federally recognized First Nations in the area, I don't think a population that is 98% French on average should have a right to declare themselves "Metis" - as meaning an indigenous person with rights to the resources which belong to indigenous peoples .

Quote
No one cares about "percentages" and didn't for hundreds of years,

I guess because realistically , except in a couple isolated French settlements , there wasn't much in the way of percentages to care about... 

Quote
Why would anyone care if someone wants to self-identify as being a bi-racial or tri-racial descendant anyway?

I agrees if people put a disporportionate emphasis on some aspect of their families background, or have fanciful ideas about one of their ancestors, and they don't make this part of the public dialog,  it doesn't really matter to the public. I guess it might be annoying if you had to spend time listening to a bunch of thouroghly disproven ideas .... But it isn't really a problem that would affect much besides peoples immediate friends and family.  But this does become a problem when people begin publishing fictious historical or genealogical information , or they publish unlikely specualtion about some families native ancestry, and this is stated as a fact - and it isn't a fact at all....

It becomes even more of a problem when people encourage people with extremely small and distant amounts of Native descent to claim their "soverinty" and identity as Native people. It seems even more disrespectful when this alleged Native ancestry is nothing but speculation or is completely fictious.

To use this word " Metis" with all it's implied political meanings and property rights and apply this to people who are almost entirely non native ( or maybe not native even at all ) seems dishonest , exploitive and disrespectful....

IMO , when distant descendents make these claims to be Metis it probably serves to trivialize and confuse public perception of the REAL soverienty and REAL rights of REAL indigenous peoples and their governing bodies. I think this  does create problems.

nighthawk

  • Guest
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2009, 09:12:27 am »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:08:26 am by nighthawk »

nighthawk

  • Guest
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2009, 09:41:05 am »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:08:52 am by nighthawk »

nighthawk

  • Guest
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2009, 10:16:46 am »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:06:50 am by nighthawk »

nighthawk

  • Guest
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2009, 10:53:48 am »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:05:51 am by nighthawk »

nighthawk

  • Guest
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2009, 11:40:22 am »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:05:03 am by nighthawk »

nighthawk

  • Guest
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2009, 01:13:04 pm »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:02:29 am by nighthawk »

apukjij

  • Guest
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2009, 03:06:56 pm »
hi moma p, your questions touch on some core issues. before bill c-31 was enacted into law, native woman who married white men, lost their status, (my moms status card was cut in half in front of her eyes) so for many generations of whats was officially called Non-Status Indians. even tho i lived on the rez in the summers since i was a child, i was considered a non-status Indian. then the law was changed and it gave the native women back their status that they lost when they married white men. and it gave the children of those marriages a new status designation, so now i have status but here in Eskasoni, they chief and council got together and decided they did not want nothing to do with these newly statused Indians and they enacted legislation to deny bill c-31 Indians voting and housing rights. i don't have a voice in the elections and when my mom dies i will loose the house.
before bill-c31 the non-status Indians were in the gray area of law and disenfranchised from an treaty rights, at the same time the Metis Nation out west began organizing and becoming politically powerful. soon the Metis were accepted at the negotiating at the federal and provincial levels. there were of course some controversies as some peoples said the Metis didn't deserve status and that the half-breed children shouldn't be entitled to status, and then the first nations in the maritimes started denying members  benefits if they moved off-reserve. so urban Indians started organizations and they forged alliances with the Metis as well. these organizations fought tooth and nail to gain legitimacy. now we have organizations in the maritimes part of the Congress of Aboriginal People, the Native Council of NB, NS and NFLD accept members who are either off-reserve full status; Metis; are 50 %bq bill c-31's; 1\4 bloods and PODIAS, and these are the only organizations that are the negotiating table in the marititmes with the feds and the province, they can help with funding for school, job and trainings, and they have fishings fleets for people to work in. Moma P the organization you mentioned is not currently part of the negotiators here in the maritimes so they wouldn't be entitled to the fishery and hunting privileges. as the list states there are many acadian-metis-mi'kmaq alliances all who have no privelidges and no voice or say in treaty negotiations.

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2009, 05:58:12 pm »
Gee Nighthawk, how am I ever supposed to find the time to go over the huge volume of misinformation / out of context facts you have posted in this thread to try and point out why I think the history and genealogy you are posting is largely a work of fiction with a few facts in there to prop it up... ?

By the sheer volume of your posts in this thread , you seem absolutely determined to divert the discussion from what happens when people of very distant indian ancestry are considered to be the rightful owners of indigenous identities and resources .

Providing well documented rebuttals to your many incorrrect historical facts would literally take years of research ...

Other people have already spent many years doing this ...

The links i posted - especially this one -

http://www.acadian-home.org/frames.html

provide a good summery of that research, and also make a point to acknowledge the relatively few instances of intermarriage that are known to have occured. Your claim that the Acadian genealogists who point to mostly French origins are hiding their Native descent is refuted by the many pages on this website , dedicated to acknowledging the Acadians who were of mixed blood descent.

There is some things that aren't known, but guessing about this gets into creating speculative stories based on circumstantial evidence. The stories which are most likely to be true are the ones that are based on the most evidence. 

From what I have seen, it is the people who are claiming a large amount of Native ancestry in the Acadian/ Quebec population who are carefully selecting only the facts that suit them, while completely ignoring or irrationalizing away the evidence which does not support the story they want to believe. It seems to me it is the people who are claimimng the Acadians are metis who are exaggerating or in denial and who are guilty of denying the large majority of their real heritage. Which , considering all the evidnece is French - NOT the other way around as you claim...

I will try and pick out some of your main points and show why i think you are publishing a lot of misinformation, but there is so much here it will take me a while to get this together.

Meanwhile the link below , which teaches critical thinking applied to history may help people sort through some of this on their own..

http://www.accd.edu/sac/history/keller/ACCDitg/SSCT.htm

Quote
APPLYING CRITICAL THINKING TO AMERICAN HISTORY

FACT, OPINION AND INFERENCE

Being able to distinguish between a statement of fact, an opinion or an inference is an important skill to critical thinking. It involves knowing what can be proven directly, what is a legitimate implication derived from the facts, and what is fair to conclude from the historical record.

Historians typically interweave statements of fact, inferences they derive from the facts, and statements of their own opinion into a seamless historical narrative. Critical thinkers must be able to distinguish among these three types of communication.

    * FACT: reports information that can be directly observed or can be verified or checked for accuracy.

    * OPINION: expresses an evaluation based on a personal judgment or belief which may or may not be verifiable.

    * INFERENCE: a logical conclusion or a legitimate implication based on factual information.


Generally, facts are constants in historical study. But a compendium of facts is inevitably incomplete and deathly dull to read. Historians construct history by closing the gaps in their knowledge about the past, enlarge our under- standing, and enliven their narrative by drawing logical inferences from their assembled facts. Often, they then use their expertise to arrive at a considered judgment about the wisdom or significance of past decisions and events.

Distinguishing statements of fact, opinion, and inference may at first seem difficult to do. That is because they are often closely interwoven. Develop your own critical thinking abilities by placing an "F" before each factual statement, an "O" before each opinion, and an "I" before each inference in the practice exercise below. 
(continues...)

 

Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2009, 06:12:36 pm »
Hi Apukjij

Hearing your personal situation was really helpful in understanding how the candain government has set up a situation where an organization like CAP has come to have some power ...

Obviously there is many Native people who need representation and who aren't getting it.

But one of the things that has made me suspisious of CAP is that is not only represents people such as yourself who are legitimate claiments but it includes People of Distant Indian Ancstry ...

For example , you mentioned the Native Council of NB 

http://web.archive.org/web/20080208213330/http://www.abo-peoples.org/affiliates/nbapc.html

Quote
Fredericton, New Brunswick

Mission Statement

To the New Brunswick Aboriginal People's Council, Self-Government begins - but does not end - with control over our land. Government means jurisdiction over our renewable and non-renewable resources, education, health and social services, public order and the shape and composition of our political institutions. While some of our plans may sound far-reaching to some people, they should not be regarded as a threat. We do not want to recreate a world that has vanished. We do not want to turn back the clock. Far from it. We welcome the challenge to see our culture grow and change in directions that we have chosen for ourselves. We do not want to become objects of sentimentality. Nor do we want our culture to be preserved in amber for the amusement or even edification of others. What we do want, what we demand, is nothing more than control over our own lives and destiny. That control is called Self-Government.

Quote
Membership Criteria

Constitution and By-Laws 1. Membership A. Full membership in the council shall be limited to persons of Aboriginal ancestry (Indigenous People of North America) 16 years of age and older and husbands and wives who do not reside on a Reserve. Only a Full-Aboriginal-Member shall be eligible to vote and Assemblies or Special Meetings or to hold elective office at the Executive or board of Directors level of the Council.

I.To be eligible for Full Membership people must live off the reserve in the province of New Brunswick for six (6) months prior to applying for Membership.II Any person wishing to join the council as a full member shall meet the requirements of Membership and must fill out and have approved a Membership form prescribed for such purposes

III To be eligible for full Membership a person must be a descendant of a verified and known Aboriginal person since July 1, 1867.

So... if someones one Native ancestor was 70 years old in 1867, and this was their  4 or 5 times great grandparent, and this person hadn't had anything to do with this part of their heritage in several generations, would this person and peoplelike this be represented as Aboriginal people by CAP ?

Why would people of such distant descent be included - and even supported in claiming the resources that belong to First Nations communities...

Why are people with such small amounts of Native descent represented by CAP ? What kind of precedent does this set?

If people of such distant ancestry are recognized by CAP as Aboriginal people, how might this principle affect the soverinty of the First nations communities in your area?
 
I am suspisious that the reason CAP is including people with such extreme distant ancestry is because this seems like a way to make it look like there is a larger number of Aboriginal people living off reserve who need the services and funding provided to CAP than there really is...

I can see where this stratagy provides the canadians governement with a politically correct reason to remove more funding from First Nations communities... Which creates stories like yours, which creates more of a need for an organization like CAP ... And further removes the political powert and soverinty from the First Nations communities .....   
 
Maybe I am just overly suspisious and I am not understanding what is going on there ...

But it seems odd when the canadian government sets it up so First Nations people loose status and ( ? funding ) for band members after 2 generations of outmarriage , but they are willing to fund a political organization which supports someone with a 4 times greatgrandma who was Mi'kmaq  who wants access to the resources belonging to Aboriginal people.

Are you sure this isn't being intentionally manipulated in favor of more rights for people who have more nonnative ancestry?

nighthawk

  • Guest
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2009, 09:10:29 pm »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:01:17 am by nighthawk »

Offline Rattlebone

  • Posts: 256
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2009, 03:15:27 am »


 
Quote
I can say this about so called PODIAs, why is it that, when a person has a European ancestor that is equally distant on the "family tree" as an Indigenous one, they are expected to forget all about the Indigenous one and expected to self-identify as European (or "white")? They are PODEAs ('person of distant european ancestry') as well as PODIAs, and yet being a European descendant is so normalised that that up to right now, there hasn't even been anything like PODEA to describe them.


 You know this is a good point on your part, however given my newer understanding of the word PODIA after having read a lot of posts by people on here such as Educated Indian and MP, I think the concept of racial ancestry, and BQ versus community and tribal recognition may have you confused.

 If the people in question in this thread at one time had higher Indigenous BQ at one time, and despite intermarriage with NONS had maintained their indigenous culture and ways in tact, and have been recognized from historic days to the present by the government and other tribal groups as an Indigenous people; then I feel it is likely going by what I have read that they would not count as PODIA's, and their claims would not be questioned. Things to keep in mind in regards to this is that the word PODIA does apply to Mexicans and other people from Latin America who may have over 50% Native blood, but culturally are something else. So in this sense even somebody with higher BQ can count as a PODIA.

What it seems to me this thread is about, is a group of people coming out of the woodwork claiming some Metis ancestry or whatever, and then thinking they can claim to be a new tribe, or historic one. This is not unlike the people in the US who often claim to be Cherokee or some other tribe, and then try and start a tribe and think by definition is should be seen in the same light as the still existing historic and recognized tribes such as the Cherokee.

 Perhaps these people do have the Metis blood they claim, however having NDN blood does not confer that one is an Indian. Nor should it mean these people should group up and try and get recognized as some historic tribal body, when they have no such right to do so. That is of course, if that is what is going on here. I have only briefly read this thread.

  I did like the idea presented by you that I put in quotes, but a statement like that I think would be serve to argue about somebody who is lower BQ, and has maintained cultural and community ties to their people, or an Indian community and should be seen as such. Not when somebody comes out of the woodwork claiming some ancestry they have zero contact with, and might only be doing it for monetary or personal gain at the expense of those who are truly Native regardless of their amount of NDN or European ancestry.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 03:17:01 am by Rattlebone »

nighthawk

  • Guest
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2009, 04:30:33 am »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 07:58:58 am by nighthawk »

nighthawk

  • Guest
Re: Acadian Metis ?
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2009, 06:54:02 am »
- removed by author -
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 07:55:44 am by nighthawk »