General > Frauds
George Price & Quaker Sweatlodge
educatedindian:
Mostly seems naive and shocked that people object. He wants comments, here's a chance to convince the guy. Please post anything you send to him and any answers from him.
http://www.quakersweat.org
A Quaker Sweat Lodge was conducted at the annual Gathering of Friends General Conference for over ten years, until 2003. It was approved for 2004, then abruptly canceled, due to charges of "racism" and "cultural appropriation." Controversy over the charges and the decision have continued ever since. This site assembles documents from this discussion and resources on the issues. The site is an unofficial and personal project of Chuck Fager, who has actively participated in this discussion.
http://www.quakersweat.org/racism.html
In spite of numerous requests, none of those who have charged that the Quaker Sweat Lodge is "racist" and "cultural appropriation" have as yet responded to the following two queries:
1. What exactly is "racism" and "cultural appropriation" as they apply to something like the sweat lodge?
2. Specifically how does the Quaker Sweat Lodge fit these definitions of "racism" and "cultural appropriation"?
This page is reserved for these responses, if and when they are sent in.
Please send them to me at: Email: chuckfager@aol.com
JosephSWM:
Here's what I wrote to them. You might be able to tell that there is no love lost in my feelings towards quakers.
Hello,
I do not want to sound mean nor nasty nor hateful but I do want to get to the point. The posing of the question of what is racism and cultural appropriation is to me similar to a political debate that will go nowhere. The question has been posed by the Quakers and now the ball is in the Indian court and they better be able to explain themselves or else. Why?
The Quakers have had a long history of acting like they are helping Indian people but still making sure we knew they were white and better. How about defend yourself on that one. How about all the government money your people got "running" reservations. And while you are explaining things, how about Richard Nixon?
I don't think anyone here at this forum nor any Indian should play ball with you and your turn the table around tactics.
You lack of respect for our opinion, our feelings, our culture, our whole being is very evident. You ask us to explain cultural appropriation. You know what it is. Are you that naive.
I would say to any others at NAFPS not to respond to this question.
Joseph
Moma_porcupine:
I want to point out that in this situation ,the Quaker community has done the right thing and has had enough respect for the wishes of Native peoples to put a stop to "the Quaker Sweat Lodge".
Part of the letter at the link below bitterly complains about this saying ;
http://www.quakersweat.org/qsl-02.html
--- Quote ---"the minutes of the LRCP from 4th Month 2004, record the Committee for Ministry on Racism as declaring, When someone is so strongly offended by our behavior we must take heed, no matter what our intentions."
--- End quote ---
I don't think it is the Quakers in general that are having a hard time understanding what is cultural appropriation , but it is actually just a few individuals who are a part of the Quaker community , who don't seem to get it .
Especially the individual who wrote this long letter complaining about what , in my opinion , should be easily recognizable as basic Native rights to govern and protect their own culture and Spiritual ceremonies , as they see fit . Who knows why this individual feels so threatened by this ... ???
I appreciate that the Quaker leadership recognized and respected the concerns expressed by the Mashpee Wampanoag and in response they discontinued using the Sweat Lodge ceremony. Whether people agree with every thing Quakers have done in the past , if other people all showed the same respect and senstivity , as the Quaker leadership has in this case , we would not have nearly so many problems to discuss in this forum . I don't think the Quakers deserve any critism for their response to this . Especially not from us too !
Sounds like they are already getting plenty of critism for discontinuing these Quaker sweat lodges, from some of their own members .
Moma_porcupine:
http://www.quakersweat.org/qsl-02.html
I can pick out a few of the things this person has said himself , in his letter of complaint , found in the link above , that might help the young people who became involved in this "Quaker sweat lodge" understand what people are getting at when they say " cultural appropriation". I do feel concerned for these young people who became innocently involved in this .
Quoting from the long letter of complaint
--- Quote ---"There are also native teachers who have worked quietly with devoted non-natives to find ways to share what is good in their traditions, because they think the underlying spirituality could be of benefit, even to us whites, if used respectfully."
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---"George Price’s article in the February 2002 Friends Journal, which explains how his native
teachers led the early sweats at the Gathering, and then instructed him to continue them
By his own account, George has spent many years studying and working with such "authentic"
native teachers."
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---"Clyde Bellacourt of the American Indian Movement, who also encouraged Price to continue the sweats, when Bellacourt visited the Gathering in 1989."
--- End quote ---
So here this guy has repeatedly pointed out that these traditions were learned from Native teachers .
But then , speaking about a write up done explaining the Quaker Sweat Lodge , he goes on to say ;
Quoting the long letter of complaint
--- Quote ---"note that it does not mention Native American spirituality or ceremonies. The organizers say this is not an accident; they assert that the experience has become distinctively Quaker, it is not "stolen" or imitation anything. "
--- End quote ---
He then tries to suggest the concerns Native people have expressed with regards to the out of context use of their Sacred traditions , are the opinions of " self appointed outsiders "
Quoting the long letter of copmplaint
--- Quote ---"Are we now to submit our seventy-plus workshops to a new round of reviews by self-appointed outsiders, persons and groups with no involvement in FGC, no presence at the Gathering, because they might take exception to some of what is on our program?"
--- End quote ---
Well there you have it . This person who is objecting bitterly that Native people feel the Quaker sweat lodge is cultural appropriation explains that some of his friends learned these traditions from Native teachers , he then goes on to explain the traditions are now Quaker and Native people are now "self appointed outsiders" .
In yet he cannot understand the concept of "cultural appropriation , or how failure to recognize Native American authority and ownership is a form of racism which has, and continues to , result in genocide .
It is hard to understand why he can't see this , but I guess we all have blind spots ....
These quotes have been taken from a very long letter , and are not in context. The individual who wrote this offers many rationalizations that he believes are justifications for behavior many Native people experience as desecration and cultural approproiation . Addressing all his many justifications point by
point , would be very very long , so I am just trying to stay with the bare bones , and point out what is going on here that might be percieved to be " cultural appropriation ".
I also wanted to say I feel some sympathy for the people who say they were taught the sweat lodge ceremony and encouraged to share it with their friends by people they believed were qualified Native teachers .
One thing that is often misunderstood is the concept of collective ownership . Native tradtions and culture are collectively owned , sort of like the National Parks . What this means is that the descisions are not made in consideration of individual desires , but are made in consideration of the well being of the whole . Sometimes , with the best of intentions, mistakes get made , and when it is realized what was done was not in the best intrest of the whole , the mistake gets corrected. Individual "owners" do not have a right to "share" something in a way that is not in the best intrests of the whole .
I don't think that people who become involved in leading Native ceremonies believing they are welcome to do so , are "guilty " of anything - at least not until they find out that many Native people feel offended by this , and the choice is made to ignore this.
debbieredbear:
--- Quote ---It is hard to understand why he can't see this , but I guess we all have blind spots ....
--- End quote ---
I think he CAN See it. He just doesn't want to, that's why he dismissed the Wampanog letter and will most likely dismiss any others. He already has. He called them "self appointed outsiders."
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