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Using Sacred Medicines like Ayahuasca: When is it appropriate?

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Thyme4Mind:
Hey there everybody!

I stumbled across this forum a little while ago and I’m very impressed with the work done here. There are few things that frustrate me more than phoney new-agers who appropriate the culture of others. The focus of the work here is very relevant to my interests, and so after some deliberation I thought it would be beneficial for me to create an account and ask some questions.

So to briefly introduce myself and what I'm all about:

I am a young black male and a few years ago I stumbled across the world of entheogens, or better known as psychedelics. My first experience with psilocybin was absolutely life-changing. I had never considered myself a spiritual person, but after just one experience I was trying to learn as much as I could about these states of altered consciousness and the effect that they have had on religion, spirituality, and culture throughout human history. Soon enough, and I would say inevitably, I became aware of the popularized entheogenic brew known as Yage, or more commonly as Ayahuasca.

After lots of research, I learned much about the cultural significance of Yage in regions of Latin America and the increasing problem of Western appropriation of this medicine. Not only do local communities suffer as a result of the mass influx of tourists traveling to experience Yage under the (paid) supervision of so-called shamans; but due to the online accessibility of the raw materials needed to brew Yage, there is now a widespread trend of ordering "ayahuasca kits" off of the internet and the demand is rapidly exceeding the supply. This has led to deforestation, offset economies, dislocated communities, unsustainable harvesting techniques, and the commodification of a medicine that has been considered sacred by indigenous Latino culture for hundreds and possibly thousands of years.

Needless to say, I avoided partaking in any sort of Yage ceremony for several years before finding myself invited to attend one in the state of Oregon this past summer. The ceremony was not free, and though it was organized by a group of Taitas from Columbia, they were not present for this particular ceremony. I was the only person of color present for the entirety of the experience. I was perturbed, but to be fair the experience surpassed my expectations in a lot of ways.

Entheogens, or psychedelics, have become an incredibly important aspect of my life and life-goals. I have only worked with Ayahuasca that one time I just mentioned, however I am increasingly drawn to it and I would like to continue pursuing a relationship with it in a way that is respectful of the cultures from which it originates.

So this brings me to my main questions for y’all:

I have seen a small handful of conversations on here about Ayahuasca but they all seem to be about the notion of traveling to a Latin American country to drink the brew with a shaman. I am interested in ethnobotany in addition to the subjective experience provided by these plants; meaning that I'm not just interested in taking them, but I am fascinated by the plants themselves and how they grow. There are a number of online vendors who advocate private cultivation of these plants so as to preserve them in their native habitats. I'm wondering what this forum's position is on the use of Ayahuasca and other sacred medicines (eg peyote, san pedro, etc...) for personal growth/self development given that I cultivate them personally. If I were to grow the plants myself, would this be seen as harmful or insensitive? I truly believe in the universal nature of the psychedelic experience for all humans from every wake of life, but I am also deeply aware of the socio-political realities in which we live that make this a complicated issue.

As a side note; there are local plants and fauna which contain the same alkaloids as the plants used in traditional Latino yage brews. Using non-traditional plants to achieve similar results is often called anahuasca (analog of ayahuasca). I can pursue this route, and I would have no ethical qualms about doing so; but unfortunately the species of plants used for traditional ayahuasca brews are hands down the best plants for the job and require much less preparation and work to achieve the desired mixture. So this said, yes I can always use other local plants if need be, but if possible I would like to work with the plants traditionally used by indigenous Latino peoples.

Furthermore, is anyone here aware of any way in which someone like me could connect with legitimate practitioners who are sharing this medicine in an honorable and sustainable way without imposing my own desire to participate? Is there an ethical way to go about this at all? I have been considering the idea of traveling to Latin America to assist with community organizing and environmental/social work, and on the side perhaps I might connect with like-minded individuals who could point me in the right direction. Is this problematic?

Before I end, I want to make a few brief disclaimers. Yes, I am interested in psychedelics as tools to be used as catalysts for profound interpersonal transformation; but I am by no means a New-Ager. Shortly after becoming introduced to psychedelic culture, I was greatly disillusioned by the fact that nearly everyone in the "scene" was white and upper class. The profound insight offered by these medicines seems to have been lost in the West in neon-lit nightclubs and self-serving, over-indulgent, outdoor parties or so called "transformational" festivals. Please know that I have NO part in that.  As a person of color I've struggled with this, and I've made it part of my goals to work towards integrating psychedelic medicine into a paradigm where it's utilized by front-line communities that would actually benefit from it; eg communities who have suffered traumas as a result of systemic oppression, who do not have access to, or would not benefit from, traditional Western models of healing. I want to ensure that the cultures who first shared these tools with the world are fairly represented wherever they are being used, and that their customs and beliefs are not taken out of context and packed into a neat little new-age box. Because of their nature to decondition individuals from larger cultural paradigms, I am also interested in using these medicines as tools for decolonization, and Ive been developing and furthering my analysis of neo-colonialism within the context of ayahuasca tourism. (Slightly off topic, here is an interesting article about neo-colonialism and the serious problem of ayahuasca tourism for anyone interested: https://culturaladmixtures.wordpress.com/2015/01/26/amazonian-ayahuasca-tourism-and-millenarian-imperialism-the-story-of-the-ethnobotanical-stewardship-council/ )

I am involved with radical community organizing and anti-racist work as well as environmental work. As a fellow activist and anti-racist please know that I stand with you and the purpose of this forum. Please know that my quest for knowledge is genuine and I ask these questions out of sincerity, not some convoluted desire to convince anyone here that I have a right to these medicines. As an additional disclaimer let me say that I'm not really interested in defending my use of psychedelics either. I understand not everyone here will share the same opinion about them. To many of you, they are just drugs. I understand that perspective, and it’s not my wish to debate the nature of psychedelic drugs and whether or not they can be used in a positive context. I believe that they can, and in light of this I am specifically asking about Yage. As someone who is not from the traditional cultures who birthed Ayahuasca, is it inherently wrong for me to attempt to partake in it in any way at all? If not, what would you see as a viable and respectful way to engage with Ayahuasca and similar medicines?

While I am here I also have one more brief set of questions. While I was researching this forum, I found a large number of websites (mostly operated by white new age healers) which had a lot of negative things to say about NAFPS. Most of it I found to be reactionary and defensive, and nothing short of what I would expect from someone defending their white privilege. This said, I did find repeated claims on several websites that I found a bit concerning and I just wanted to run them by you folks here. Supposedly, according to a variety of people on random websites, former NAFPS websites have shared IP's with well-known racist websites. Is this true? If so, why?

I mean no offense by the above question. I am very aware that groups such as this one, that target white-supremacy in it's lesser known yet more prevalent forms (eg white neo-shamanism), are often targeted and made out to be hate groups. The Black Panthers are a great example. I grew up thinking they were a racist hate group and they were no such thing. The Black Panthers defended black people from racist assault from white-america, and they were non apologetic in their work. Labeling them as a violent hate group was both strategic and reactionary, but nonetheless it worked to dismantle their work. But to be fair, there are a LOT of claims that NAFPS has been shut down many times and is classified by many many people as a hate group in disguise. So, simply for transparency, I’d like to know what this communities response is to these claims--but please don't take it personally.

Thanks so much and my apologies for the long read!

In Solidarity,

Ingeborg:
Since I am one of the Euro/Euro-American members of the board, I will only address part of your post, as I don't feel qualified to discuss the objections ndn persons and nations hold against the recreational use of plants by outsiders. At least not in a project where the majority of activists is ndn.


--- Quote ---This said, I did find repeated claims on several websites that I found a bit concerning and I just wanted to run them by you folks here. Supposedly, according to a variety of people on random websites, former NAFPS websites have shared IP's with well-known racist websites. Is this true? If so, why?
--- End quote ---

I think one answer to this is what you wrote before this question at the beginning of the paragraph:


--- Quote ---While I was researching this forum, I found a large number of websites (mostly operated by white new age healers) which had a lot of negative things to say about NAFPS. Most of it I found to be reactionary and defensive, and nothing short of what I would expect from someone defending their white privilege.
--- End quote ---

Emphasis mine

As far as I know, there are no former NAFPS websites; it was and is http://www.newagefraud.org

The claim we shared the IP with racist websites insinuates these sites were either run by NAFPS or hosted by us. This is – pardon my French – nothing but a load of BS spread by people eager to defend their privilege and wallowing in their feeling of entitledness. Whenever I came across such allegations at Nuage websites, I noticed they prefer to be rather vague by just mentioning „well-known racist websites“, without giving any more details like whom we might have associated with. And of course they can't, because such associations do not exist, did not exist, and never will exist.


--- Quote ---I mean no offense by the above question. I am very aware that groups such as this one, that target white-supremacy in it's lesser known yet more prevalent forms (eg white neo-shamanism), are often targeted and made out to be hate groups. The Black Panthers are a great example. I grew up thinking they were a racist hate group and they were no such thing. The Black Panthers defended black people from racist assault from white-america, and they were non apologetic in their work. Labeling them as a violent hate group was both strategic and reactionary, but nonetheless it worked to dismantle their work.
--- End quote ---

I happen to be old enough to have seen those times, so I'd like to add the BPP was not only a project of self-defence, but also started and maintained lots of social projects in their communities, like food projects, school projects, free medical clinics etc.


--- Quote ---But to be fair, there are a LOT of claims that NAFPS has been shut down many times and is classified by many many people as a hate group in disguise.
--- End quote ---

NAFPS has been shut down far less than the exploiters of ndn peoples and ceremonies will wish for, and those cases far and few between never managed to shut us down for more than a few days at most. These cases were caused by disgruntled Nuagers either seeing themselves considerably hit in the wallet by our research, or by a Nuager being outraged that we dare expose their favoured guru. One example for this is John Lekay who ran a Nuage online mag and came here to have his then latest discoveries in the way of plastic shame-ons sort of conveniently rubberstamped by NAFPS. When this did not quite materialise :cough: and we instead exposed the plastics for what they were, Lekay threw a series of fits using multiple accounts and sock puppets, got blocked from posting, and then turned to our provider claiming without evidence NAFPS had hired a hit team who were beleaguering his house.

We're quite familiar with the allegation we were a hate group, or hate group in disguise. Anyone who's heard of the concept of an alleged 'reverse racism' will know what to think of that. Yup, just imagine, those timber […] and plains […] are getting uppity.... - the world is coming to rack and ruin : sarcasm off :.
Quite incidentially, we happen to be the ones to have received all kinds of threats, including death threats, by interested persons.

There are two threads in this forum which may shed a further light on whom we cooperate with and who uses us as a source of information, and on the other hand who's going out of their way to smear us any way they can:

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1235.0

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1234.0

wolfhawaii:
I don't think you will find anyone on here who will ease your conscience regarding what substances you use or why you use them. Personally i think that is your business and no one else's, however i do think it is wise to consider the impact of your actions on others.

earthw7:
As a native  :-\ i wonder why the outside culture is so out of balance that they want to take from other cultures?
i find it offensive you used the word shaman for our people. I have been with NAFPS for a long time and have heard every kind of
claim against us. As i tell people you don't pay to pray, and if you are using this for prayer i could understand but it sound like
you want it for personal reason

Thyme4Mind:
Thanks for responses so far


--- Quote ---NAFPS has been shut down far less than the exploiters of ndn peoples and ceremonies will wish for, and those cases far and few between never managed to shut us down for more than a few days at most. These cases were caused by disgruntled Nuagers either seeing themselves considerably hit in the wallet by our research, or by a Nuager being outraged that we dare expose their favoured guru. One example for this is John Lekay who ran a Nuage online mag and came here to have his then latest discoveries in the way of plastic shame-ons sort of conveniently rubberstamped by NAFPS. When this did not quite materialise :cough: and we instead exposed the plastics for what they were, Lekay threw a series of fits using multiple accounts and sock puppets, got blocked from posting, and then turned to our provider claiming without evidence NAFPS had hired a hit team who were beleaguering his house.

We're quite familiar with the allegation we were a hate group, or hate group in disguise. Anyone who's heard of the concept of an alleged 'reverse racism' will know what to think of that. Yup, just imagine, those timber […] and plains […] are getting uppity.... - the world is coming to rack and ruin : sarcasm off :.
Quite incidentially, we happen to be the ones to have received all kinds of threats, including death threats, by interested persons.
--- End quote ---

Thanks for that. I had assumed just as much, and I apologize for having to ask in the first place.


--- Quote ---I happen to be old enough to have seen those times, so I'd like to add the BPP was not only a project of self-defence, but also started and maintained lots of social projects in their communities, like food projects, school projects, free medical clinics etc.
--- End quote ---

Yes, I'm very familiar with the Black Panthers. When I said "defended black people from racist assault" I meant not so much exclusively defense from physical assault as much as I meant the total cultural and political assault. I am very much inspired by their community oriented work.

Thanks for your input :)


--- Quote ---I don't think you will find anyone on here who will ease your conscience regarding what substances you use or why you use them. Personally i think that is your business and no one else's, however i do think it is wise to consider the impact of your actions on others.
--- End quote ---

Fair enough, and very true. I'm very much conflicted over the impact of my actions, and this is why I am here. While I understand the impact of cultural appropriation and the harm it causes, I'm struggling with this. I have not had and do not have any intentions to appropriate sacred symbols or cultural interpretations of these medicines; I consider them tools in as objective a sense of the word, and I do not associate with myself indigenous spirituality. This said, I also understand how I often feel when white people come into black spaces and ask questions such as, "Is it offensive if I do (insert offensive act here)?". Often it can be deeply insulting. In light of this, I deeply apologize if I sort of waltzed in here and offended anyone. I am genuinely seeking clarity, and perhaps my passion has made me more audacious than I should be.


--- Quote ---As a native  :-\ i wonder why the outside culture is so out of balance that they want to take from other cultures?
i find it offensive you used the word shaman for our people. I have been with NAFPS for a long time and have heard every kind of
claim against us. As i tell people you don't pay to pray, and if you are using this for prayer i could understand but it sound like
you want it for personal reason
--- End quote ---

I sincerely apologize that I've offended you. I tried very hard not to use the word shaman myself, and (as far as I know) I only used the word in reference to the fact that many new-agers will seek out "shamans" to experience ayahuasca and other ceremonies. Again, my deepest apologies.

If I can respond though, this is exactly why I have come to this community asking about this. I understand that these medicines have strong cultural ties and I have no wish to disrespect that. To re-iterate, I feel that these medicines are tools for self-exploration. They produce an experience that transcends human constructs and cultural paradigms, and I have been earnest in my attempts not to appropriate cultural symbols or interpretations and apply them to my own experiences. I am interested in Yage as a powerful tool. Perhaps it is wrong to try and separate the tool from the culture, and if this is the case then I can understand and I hope I caused no harm by being inquisitive.

Also, like I said in my first post, I have no intention of "paying to pray". I will never again pay for a ceremony, and I am disillusioned with myself for having done so even just once. I am interested in cultivating these medicines myself in a sustainable way. This entails the entire process from seed. My use of entheogens is not for recreation. I use them for prayer, for spiritual growth, and self-improvement.
-------

Thanks again everyone. I feel that so far it is pretty clear how the community feels about this issue and I want you to know that I take your wishes very seriously. Though in this post I have tried to clarify my position slightly, I am NOT trying to come across as defensive nor am I trying to justify my actions. I just want to be as transparent as possible in regards to my intentions in addition to what it is I'm actually asking.

So far I still feel conflicted. I'm getting the general feeling that the use of plant medicines by outsiders is discouraged altogether and if this is the case I completely respect it, and will discontinue my use/pursuit of any entheogen which has cultural ties to native cultures. I'm still unsure, however, as it seems like some of you are saying slightly different things.

I have to run, so I will add more this post later tonight and edit much of what I've written. I just wanted to get my basic thoughts up here to see if it might be helpful at all in understanding where I'm coming from.

Thanks so much for the responses, and I hope I haven't shown any disrespect because of my actions.

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