"But people never donate enough"

[Moma_porcupine]

" I work so hard to help people , people do not donate enough , I need to make a living .... things have changed , and I think in this modern world it is OK to charge "

I have heard this so often . ? Sometimes I hear it said by people who are not who they say they are ? , or the people who want to believe in them , but sometimes I hear it said by people who have been taught by real traditional Elders , and who , in some ways ? , are doing some genuine good work .

I am encountering this way of thinking more and more , especially in urban areas , where there is no clear tribal structure or traditions .
 
One thing for sure is , I quickly loose any sympathy I may feel towards overworked Medicine people , when I see them ADVERTISING for more work . ? If people justify charging , by claiming they do not have the energy to do the work the right way , advertising for more work , seems very hypocritical .

What do other people think ?

What do you say to someone who is doing some good work , and who has been instructed by recognized traditional Elders , if they decide it is OK to charge for Spiritual support , or assistance in healing ?

As I seem to be seeing more of this attitude , I wonder what the best way to deal with this is .

[Chutwood]

In a way, this is a 'between a rock and a hard spot' issue.  I think the only clear line is when it comes to charging for ceremony (meaning asking for donations, a set fee, a sliding scale, suggestions or heavy hints).  Paying for prayer is just flat wrong..on every level.

Here's the place that's gray though.  It takes money to pay for gas to get places, and put food on the table, roof over head, utility bills paid.  This means that if the person working the medicine doesn't have a job or a fixed income, then they do need financial assistance to get to where they need to be and just to survive to be able to do what they do.  And if the person has a job, then it means limited time, not money, that restricts them.  And I think this problem applies not only to the spiritual folks, but to community activists, and those good-hearted persons that always seem to 'be there' when you need them.  Is accepting $5.00 for gas, or a meal, or a hotel room equal to 'charging'?

A couple of years ago, I heard an interesting theory about this is relation to rez life.  I was a guest speaker at a university class for public health doctors.  The class was taught by a Doctor from the university, who was originally from Wind River.  He was telling the public health docs how to work in cooperation with the medicine people on the rez, explainingg that what the docs might think was superstition was in fact tried and true healing methods.  He explained the differences between 'wound doctors' and spiritual healers.  One of the docs made a bad joke by asking if he'd have to split the fee.  

The Wind River doc explained that the traditional doctors don't charge a fee, but are supported by 'gifts' from the families.  He said that Pendleton blankets were, in fact, currency on the rez.  A family would go to the trading store and buy a blanket.  They would then gift the blanket to the healer.  The healer would then sell the blanket back to the store or trade the blanket for food and goods.  Also said that the family would gift the healer with food or a can of gas or smoking tobacco.  So, in a traditional way...there is payment, but not for wealth but for survival.  Everyone knows what is needed and it is done.  

The same is not and cannot be true in urban areas.  How then does an urban community support its healers and teachers and elders?  I don't know the answer to this, but I do know its an ongoing problem.

[Raven_Walkingstick]

I agree with you Chutwood, paying for praying is just flat wrong.
And yes there is a grey area that has a very fine line.

There are some that have donated their life to this way of serving the people, and I do believe that as a community we should support them in ways of survival.
And within the communities on the reservations the people do just this. However in the urban areas it is totally a different story.
Because there are so many out here running around charging for their"services", it has made it even more so a struggle for those that are doing the right thing, and that is serving the people's needs.
And then you also have the issue of the people themselves. Those that are not brought up with the ways and they take it for granted that those that are there to help and serve them, they do not support them.
This can be something as small as bringing a stone to a lodge or one piece of wood.
These two items I just mentioned in not for the person that is serving the people. Those items are for the people themselves.
For all those that are out there charging for their service I see just as many that expect to go to an elder or spiritual teacher with empty hands.
I will explain myself on that note so I am not misunderstood here to say that it is ok to charge. ?  What I am saying is in urban areas there is not the freedom to go and cut wood for free, sometimes the opportunity may came that someone may have cut a tree from their yard and has no use for the wood, then perhaps the opportunity is there for free wood, but most of the time it is buying wood which is expensive. Then you have the expenses of the cost of food, cooking it, and also the cost of doing the laundry,(dirty towels, sometimes the people's own dirty clothes they left behind, lodge covers), these things add up and even those that do work jobs it can and does cause a hardship on the ones that are doing the right ways.
I once sat down and calculated what the average cost was to run a sweat, around 75.00. That was breaking down how much wood was used, how many loads of laundry, the food and the cost to cook it, and the misc items that might be used, paper plates, cups, toliet paper, etc. This is for an average of 8 people gathering together for a sweat.
Even if a person that is serving the people as I said has a good job, this can become a hardship on the family itself, when there is no support from the people.
However it does not mean it is alright to charge for doing what that person has committed themselves to doing.
I believe there is a fine balance in doing the right thing and those that abuse .
Some of these problems can resolve themselves very simply, if one attends a lodge on a regular basis, the key here is that the lodge is there to support the people's needs, the people should also support the lodge's needs.
And this can be something as simple as bringing a stone.

[AndreasWinsnes]

Harnerists often argue that some traditional Shamans and Noaidies used to charge fees from their clients. But healers who follow their example should also live as they did, but they don't. They have an urban life stile, and their living standard is so high that it destroys the environment.

Take a hint if people don't donate enough: you are not good enough, and you obviously lack the support of the spirits. Get a job!

Split the costs if a ceremony is expensive.

[Raven_Walkingstick]

Andreas, I believed you missed my point entirely. I know of good people that do good things however there are many out there that take advantage of the role these people are committed to. I don't know what your own experience has been when it comes to these matters but I have seen this occur with some of the most well respected spiritual people out there.

[weheli]

I don't believe it is whether they are good enough or not that may be the reason exspenses are not met.

As Raven pointed out the Lodge is there for the people and not for the one who has earned the right to conduct a inipi ceremony. These rights are earned and it is not a true Lodge if it the person running the lodge has not been earned it in the true tradional way. There is NEVER a charge for any reason what so ever. The urban area is NOT exempt from this.

I have attended inipi ceremonies and there are very definite protocals for and preparations involved. If anyone charges for ceremonies of any kind they are frauds. These are done for THE PEOPLE and not to be made into a buisness for personal gain. This is what we are seeing.


You are always to bring some type of food, tobbaco. You can also contribute wood, rocks, blankets,and yes even cash ect. ect.. BUT no one is charged or turned away if they don't contribute. If people come empty handed it is not because the person running the Lodge is bad, it could be THe PEOPLE have not learned protocal, they are than taught the traditional way of the Inipi. The Lodge again is NOT FOR THE PERSON running the lodge, but for THE PEOPLE.

Thats all I will speak on this today.

                                                                          Weheli

[AndreasWinsnes]

I have seen this occur with some of the most well respected spiritual people out there.

Why is it that Buddhist monks never have a problem surviving on gifts and donations?  

[Chutwood]

Harnerists often argue that some traditional Shamans and Noaidies used to charge fees from their clients. But healers who follow their example should also live as they did, but they don't. They have an urban life stile, and their living standard is so high that it destroys the environment.

Take a hint if people don't donate enough: you are not good enough, and you obviously lack the support of the spirits. Get a job!

Split the costs if a ceremony is expensive.

You are speaking out of book learning and not real life, and in truth, on a matter you know nothing about.   NO NDN and I repeat NO NDN who geninuly works for the people asks, expects or would even accept 'fee's.    And the point is not that a person is 'good enough', the point is that it is for the people, and one who commits to working for the people understands the sacrifices it take..and gives those sacrifices knowingly and willingly.  It takes years of learning, training and experience before one ever reaches the point where one would even consider being of service to the people.  It's not a thing you do, it's a thing you are...and that 'thing' is a servant.

The difficult piece is being able to support the work that is done.  The work isn't just open to the people that can afford it, but the people who need it.  In a traditional community, no one need say 'bring wood, bring blankets, bring rocks, bring something to share for the meal', but it is known..it is a piece of traditional life.  In an urban environment, however, those who have 'need' may not have been raised traditionally so they don't automatically know they need to support (not pay) for the work...theirs and others.

And the work isn't just about ceremony.  It's about throwing together a bunch of sandwiches, chips, fruit, soft drinks to take a family doing a hospital vigilance.  It's about taking a day off from work to sit in a hospice with a family.  It's about finding furniture and clothes and bedding for a family that's been burned out.  It's about driving or finding rides for someone that has to go for cancer treatments each day.  It's for coming up with money to help someone pay their light bill or a crib for a new born or a funeral.  It's about getting the food necessary for the gathering of a funeral, or money for a plane ticket for a mother whose son was wounded in Iraq.  It's about being the communicator, the connector, the 'last resort' for people.

What it's not about is fancy names, fancy titles, a fat wallet, a chapter in some damn book, recognition or reward.  It's about everyday real life, and 'ceremony' is only the tip of a very large iceberg.  

[AndreasWinsnes]

I admit that I read the first post too hastily, it was not about harnerists and new agers, but Medicine people who feel that they need more money to do their work. What to say to them? I don't know. I am not an Native American, so I will stay out of this discusion.

[Raven_Walkingstick]

The way I understand it, in their countries, the buddhist monks have a nationwide understanding of their purposes. Here in our country our spiritual teachers and elders do not have that luxury.

[AndreasWinsnes]

Let me just comment on the way Buddhist monks get support. The forest monks in Thailand, Cambodia and Laos was actually feared by the population in the beginning. People ran away when they saw the monks on alms rounds. But their life style gradually impressed people and convinced them that the monks where holy persons. Now a days it is easy for the monks to get support. But it has not always been so. They had to earn it the hard way, just as the Franciscan monks had to in Europe. ?  ?

[Moma_porcupine]

After I posted that first post on this topic , I thought about it, and realized I had not chosen the right words . It sounds like I am seeing more and more people who were taught the right way , deciding to charge . Actually I have only seen this in a couple of cases .

What I am seeing more and more, is people who know the right way , getting exhausted dealing with the sheer volume and complexity of problems . ? There is multigenerational trauma , drug and alcohol abuse , gangs , violence , poverty , integrating traditional cultural values
with government run social programs, different tribal traditions which combine into situations where often no one is sure if the way someone is doing something , is the right way, in their paticular tradition , and all this gets mixed up ? with a few very pushy out right frauds and exploiters , and their many clueless followers .

Many of these people are too unwell to give more than they take ? , and those that could give more than they take , misunderstand "no charge" to be " no contribution" .

Then there is the huge difficulty of integrating all these people with problems , with strong cultural traditions of hospitality , gentle teaching and inclusiveness .

It can be overwhelming . Some people get angry and try and solve the problems through exclusion , but often in urban areas, that creates more problems by dividing the community , families , and even traditional Elders, who often strongly believe exclusion of any people , is not a solution .

More and more I see exhausted people just giving up , and saying maybe it is all OK .

But that is not what people realy think or feel , they just are trying to pick their battles .

No matter how good a person may be , if they are living in a community going through a famine , a war or a plague , their lives will be affected by this . It has nothing to do with not being good enough , or needing to earn respect.

How I see it , it is about the problems of trying to retain cultural values , that have been forcibly displaced and now must find a way to function within a totally different cultural structure , that is not generally supportive of these traditional values . ?  

And of course the exploiters and frauds are very quick to take advantage of every opprotunity to bend things to their own avantage . ?

I really appreciate the words of Chutwood , Raven_Walkingstick and Weheli as the combined issues are complex and I see so many misunderstandings. And I appreciate Andreas for being brave enough to try and explore this.

Thanks ?

[Chutwood]

After
What I am seeing more and more, is people who know the right way , getting exhausted dealing with the sheer volume and complexity of problems . ? There is multigenerational trauma , drug and alcohol abuse , gangs , violence , poverty , integrating traditional cultural values
with government run social programs, different tribal traditions which combine into situations where often no one is sure if the way someone is doing something , is the right way, in their paticular tradition , and all this gets mixed up ? with a few very pushy out right frauds and exploiters , and their many clueless followers .

It can be overwhelming . Some people get angry and try and solve the problems through exclusion , but often in urban areas, that creates more problems by dividing the community , families , and even traditional Elders, who often strongly believe exclusion of any people , is not a solution .

More and more I see exhausted people just giving up , and saying maybe it is all OK .

No matter how good a person may be , if they are living in a community going through a famine , a war or a plague , their lives will be affected by this . It has nothing to do with not being good enough , or needing to earn respect.

How I see it , it is about the problems of trying to retain cultural values , that have been forcibly displaced and now must find a way to function within a totally different cultural structure , that is not generally supportive of these traditional values . ?  

And of course the exploiters and frauds are very quick to take advantage of every opprotunity to bend things to their own avantage . ?

You summed it all up wonderfully, and you are absolutely right on so many points.  

When one is dealing with other people's misery, problems and pain the majority of the time, it can become absolutely overwhelming. And when one is exhausted and being torn every which way, there is a wish to just give up..thinking maybe one has done enough..is it ever enough?  And that is when the spiritual becomes essential to cleanse and renew and strengthen.  I was asked once during a lesson to answer the question, "Who cares for the caregiver?"  Sounds like an easy question, but there are layers and layers to it.

And your point about frauds and exploiters is so absolutely important to remember.  They are are scavengers, stepping in over the bodies of the elders and folks working for the people.  They offer quick 'spiritual' fixes and bandaids, and after they've squeezed all there is to squeeze, they leave a wake of chaos and damage behind them.  And those folks that should be finding their way home to traditional values and lifestyles, get lost on the road of the quick fix, and then lose all faith and hope all together.

I've felt guilty about being on NAFPS because I feel like I don't contribute much to it, and I absolutely believe the work it does is vital.  It keeps me up to date and on the look out for the vultures.  So, I apologize for not being more of a 'worker bee' here, but please know that I most sincerely appreciate the work that all of you do.

[weheli]

Thank you Chutwood for your words of Wisdom."when is enough ,enough?" For TRUE MEDICINE PEOPLE and SPIRITUAL LEADERS the answer is never.

For  it is never about Them. It is all about THE PEOPLE. The strenght comes from the Creator and replenishing there strength in Traditional ways. These things are not learned from books but from MANY Years of commitment to the Creator and THE PEOPLE, and Teachings that are never spoke of. That has always been the way.

Our WAYS is about giving freely and not about receiving. We KNOW that all Good is returned in some way in Creators time, this circle also applies to those who do things in the wrong way.

And may we NEVER forget the history of the attempted genocide of our people and the VERY HARD ROAD that our moccasins have had to travel.

                                                                          Weheli

[Ric_Richardson]

Tansi;

When my Grandmother would be asked to provide her special form of assistance, the people asking for help would send a buggy to pick her up and take her to where she was needed.  When she arrived, and until she was finished, she was fed and given a place to sleep and work.  Afterwards, she was returned to her home, with Gifts that would help to provide for her daily needs.

In modern terms, this can be translated as transportation, meals and accommodation as well as something for her time, experience and knowledge.

In Saskatchewan, there are a number of First Nation communities who provide finances for Traditional Healers to come to their communities to work with their particular Gifts.  At some of these, medical forms are required for payment and the term "health practitioner" is crossed off, and replaced with "Traditional Healer."  Many of the people attending will also give gifts to the Healers, often including money, as well as blankets, tobacco and other items.

These are some of the ways that our First Nations communities are dealing with the modern realities, which include the need for money to provide for the needs of those who they consider Gifted with Traditional Healing Ways.  Healers are personally requested by the First Nation community, and I am unaware of any that we know of, that advertise.  The requests are based on information received by "Moccasin Telegraph."

I hope that this helps.
Ric