Ken's intro / Here we go round the mulberry bush...

[Ganieda]

One other thing, Mr. McEwan, that puzzles me.  You list on your recommended books

 The Soul of Shamanism: Western Fantasies, Imaginal Realities

 
And yet, blurbs for the book read:

 Noel provides a model for renewed shamanic seeking. Through dreams and imaginings can come the spirituality of imaginal healing, and the loss of imagination equates to the loss of the soul.

 and

Ultimately, Noel concludes that the "nonliteral reality" found within the fairy tales created by Casteneda and company can, indeed, contribute to spiritual growth.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

I'm posting this in a new topic since I think we've gatecrashed Ken's intro thread long enough.

Mr. McEwan, once again you jump to conclusions and make assumptions.  The link you posted for the book "The Archeology of Shamanism" is ridiculous.  This book is also available for much less cost, not to mention that anyone can find it thro a library system.

Whatever: if you've read it after all, you could just have said so. Its price isn't as relevant as what its introduction says: the opposite of what you seem to think it says.

They didn't develop the concept, they needed to identify a religion, so they gave it a name.

They needed to identify a religion to overthrow because they were missionaries, not because they'd encountered a new religion they didn't have a name for. They saw what missionaries' religious training prepared them to expect: a bunch of ignorant savages practicing a demonic religion which would send them to hell if they weren't given the benefits of civilisation. Today's shamanic believers have just replaced demonic savages with noble savages: they're still projecting racist fantasies Later edit and, I might add, with equally good intentions. The missionaries save the savages. The neo-shamans honour them.

Also, you seem to be obsessed with the book "Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exercise in Critical Thinking" by Alice Beck Kehoe.

Gosh, your amazing shamanic powers extend to mind-reading? I think 'obsessed' is a little strong. I recommend it a lot because I think it's an accessible introduction to criticism of the ideology of shamanism. I first recommended it to you at least three years ago.

I'm wondering if you have ever read any of her other books as well?  For example, perhaps, "The Ghost Dance: Ethnohistory and Revitalization". It's a fascinating book.

I'm sure. Tell you what, show me how it's relevant to this topic and I'll read it, if you promise to read 'Shamans and Religion'.

One other thing, Mr. McEwan, that puzzles me.  You list on your recommended books

The Soul of Shamanism: Western Fantasies, Imaginal Realities

It's not unknown for people to recommend books they don't wholly agree with: perhaps you'd be less puzzled if you relied less on Amazon reviews and more on reading the books in question. I'm out of sympathy with Noel's Jungianism and obviously disagree that a 'genuine Western shamanism' is possible, which is what he seems to be getting at. I recommended his book for its critical look at Castaneda and Harner.

[raven]

Ganieda,
I don't understand what Barnaby is saying that you don't get.
He is pointing out to you the truth yet you refuse to accept. Go ask the Navaho how many died in slavery in the name of the church, it goes on and on. The black robes came here for the main purpose of imposing their belief system on our people.  
If most NDN's don't accept shaman belief, doesn't that tell you something? There is a reason why they don't.

[Ken]

I would like to share a perspective with you here. ? As one who has a deep sense of spirituality but no religion, whenever I'm asked, "what is your religion?" I answer "There is no name for it." ? Of course I get puzzled looks. ? I have been asked not to use the terms "Shaman" or "Shamanism" here and from my point of view it is just a matter of semantics. ? I have no idea what to call the belief system of any indigenous peoples from any part of the world when it is not mainstream religion. ? I have read that Native Americans, for example, do not practice religions but practice rituals associated with deep spiritual meaning. ? Again, from my perspective, those portions of spiritual rituals associated with healing can be best understood by and articulated by me by referring to them as shamanic practices. ? Regardless of the names associated, it is known that most cultures have healing practices thousands of years old that would, today, not be considered mainstream medicine. ? I do think you do yourselves a disservice here by focusing on terminology and not on the crux of the problem. ?

That being said let me share some additional thoughts with you. ? I have taken into account everything addressed to me here and much more. ? I can fully sympathize with you when people “Indianize??? themselves with made-up names and rituals. ? What little can be said in the way of imitation being flattery is far outweighed by the disrespect. ? Now I would like you to consider another possibility. ? Suppose these people completely removed the Native Peoples’ persona from what they do. ? Suppose they called themselves “ Spirit Healers??? or “Soul Fixers??? or any one of a number of made up names that had nothing to do with native peoples? ? Would they then be still the problem they are today? ? Now, as to why they might do this and why they might even have some use? ? The mind is a fantastic tool for healing the human body. ? Psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, and others utilize people’s minds to help them heal every day. ? Couple that with the spiritual force in everything and being able to help direct or magnify that force, and you have a very powerful tool for healing. ? Even the US Congress has recognized that alternative healing methods deserve research. ? To put it more basic, the “power of prayer. ? Prayer is not for any one culture. ? Anyone who learns how to focus the energies (spirits) in all things on healing has mastered a fantastic tool for the community of Man. ? All rituals, regardless of culture, are just methods for harnessing these energies. ? The challenge is to keep counterfeiters and charlatans away from these practices and make sure those that practice these arts have the knowledge and skill to prevent harm to others. ? This is one of the key dangers to many of the New Age practices, they offer up potential physical and psychological harm to the patient or follower. ? As an example, one of the teachings is a person can take charge of his own prosperity by being positive and expecting prosperity in his life. ? By praying for prosperity or conducting certain cleansing rituals they can become prosperous. ? Sounds great and harmless enough. ? Consider this; if a person is made to believe they are responsible for everything positive that happens to them, then they must surely think that they are responsible for everything bad that happens to them. ? If a person thinks he is responsible for everything bad that befalls him, then his self-esteem is shattered opening the person up to the onset of depression and a host of other issues. ?

So, in conclusion, I would like to say that spirituality is not the copyrighted property of any peoples. ? Some parts of spirituality, especially the healing parts, are universal and belong to mankind. ? Some rituals, on the other hand, are sacred to a people and have no business being on show for entertainment or misrepresented purposes.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Again, from my perspective, those portions of spiritual rituals associated with healing can be best understood by and articulated by me by referring to them as shamanic practices.

Once again, I urge you to read some of those books. There's a whole other perspective there which I think might change your understanding significantly.

I do think you do yourselves a disservice here by focusing on terminology and not on the crux of the problem.

I've been focusing on the wrong and just plain racist thinking behind the terminology of 'shamanism'. From my point of view that is the crux of the problem. I don't see how I can make that clearer.

I can fully sympathize with you when people “Indianize??? themselves with made-up names and rituals [...] Suppose these people completely removed the Native Peoples’ persona from what they do.

There'd be nothing left of what they do, would there?

So, in conclusion, I would like to say that spirituality is not the copyrighted property of any peoples.

That's a very common objection of newagers to Indian protests: it misunderstands a lot, which many people here are better able to explain than me.

Some parts of spirituality, especially the healing parts, are universal and belong to mankind.  Some rituals, on the other hand, are sacred to a people and have no business being on show for entertainment or misrepresented purposes.

This is contradictory: what about a specific people's healing rituals? Are you saying that they must be shared?

[Ken]

This is contradictory: what about a specific people's healing rituals? Are you saying that they must be shared?

Absolutely not.  I am of the opinion that rituals, healing or not, that are sacred to any peoples that they wish to remain private in their culture should be kept that way and not shared.  What I was trying to say is there are many ways to achieve the same healing results without trespassing on a people's rituals.

[raven]

Ken,
I would like to address a couple things, I don't want to be long winded.
I believe people's prayers are heard from all religions, I believe the Creator looks within all our hearts.
One thing posted. "When asked about people calling themselves"Spirit Healers" or "Soul fixers". Would they still be a problem they are today?"
The answer to that is yes, to give an example, look at all the tv evangelist that claim to have the power to heal, they themselves on the most part live in luxury, have their own tv stations, and there are people out there watching them that live on fixed incomes sending these people money in hopes of a healing. These people are guilty of fraud in the Christian belief.
However in Native it is more than rituals, it is a culture rape. Much of it comes down to the actual wateringdown of traditions. This goes way beyond the rituals, it takes away the oral traditions that have survived for generations. These people in doing what they call Native beliefs, are stripping away from future generations our traditions.
I do believe there is a difference between spirituality and religion.
To give an example using Christian belief, Jesus was the son of God, however it was his apostles that formed the Christian churches. He was God in human form, that is spiritual not religion.
When my grandfather checked into the hospital they asked him what religion was he, he answered I am Native.
I have more of a belief in spirituality than religion, mainly based on my upbringing.
Just a suggestion if you feel you need to give a specific answer to what religion you are, how about non denominational?
Many people are accepting of that answer.
No spirituality is not owned by anyone, that is within, however the selling of a culture, or belief is not right regardless of what race, religion or culture.

[Ken]

[Quote Ken:]So, in conclusion, I would like to say that spirituality is not the copyrighted property of any peoples.  
 

That's a very common objection of newagers to Indian protests: it misunderstands a lot, which many people here are better able to explain than me.

I am not suggesting the specific spiritual rituals of a people are open to everyone, just that spirituality in general is open to everyone.  Different cultures will, I'm sure, deal differently with their spirituality but the spirituality in some form is universal.

[Ken]

One thing posted. "When asked about people calling themselves"Spirit Healers" or "Soul fixers". Would they still be a problem they are today?"
The answer to that is yes, to give an example, look at all the tv evangelist that claim to have the power to heal, they themselves on the most part live in luxury, have their own tv stations, and there are people out there watching them that live on fixed incomes sending these people money in hopes of a healing. These people are guilty of fraud in the Christian belief.
However in Native it is more than rituals, it is a culture rape. Much of it comes down to the actual wateringdown of traditions. This goes way beyond the rituals, it takes away the oral traditions that have survived for generations. These people in doing what they call Native beliefs, are stripping away from future generations our traditions.

Let me suggest (and I hope I'm not treading on anyone's rituals here) that these "new healers"  instead of sweat lodges have people make little pointed hats out of tin foil and link them all together with yarn to create an "energy field" within the circle to search for spiritual awaking as a group!  Do you feel that still crosses too close to the spirit of traditions?

Of course this isn't too far removed from some of the cults out there but that's another story!!

[yellowthunder_bolt]

Ken, My you are coming across a lot different than when this discussion began. Your little story about the tin hats is rediculous.

If you came on this site to get validation and hear us say, yes thats great, you need to go be a shaman than you have come to the wrong site. No one said you can not use the word shaman. If that is true please point it out.

Your mind is closed and set on going down a path of your choosing. We have simply tried to give you some guidance. Which appeared that is what you wanted. Many Natives here have done that. You are not listening. It seems our words mean nothing and we are wasting our time. Our words to you are like sand blown away by the wind.

I'll not waste my time anymore but I will pray to Creator for you. Remember all things come full circle.
                                            Wado Thomas
                                   

[Ken]

If you came on this site to get validation and hear us say, yes thats great, you need to go be a shaman than you have come to the wrong site. No one said you can not use the word shaman. If that is true please point it out.

 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?

I believe that was you in the Hello thread?

 Hi Ken,

I am very concerned about all the info you are sharing. My concern lies in the fact that there are so many, frauds and sleezy people who watch these boards waiting for someone who may be confused as to what is going on in there life and will trie to pull you into a dangerous situation.  
BE VER CAUTIOUS MY FRIEND..

What walking-soft said is very wise. Helping others with healing can come in many forms. Anyone calling themselves a shaman is a phoney nor will you hear a Holy Man, Medicine man ever tell you they are one. You say you came up with the word shaman, please take that out of your vocabulary that in its self is the wrong path.
                                            Wado Thomas

[fraudchaser]

Kola,
Not sure where are you going with this. What do you want, to have a spiritual debate over NDN rituals?
What the heck! Where did that tin hat and yarn come from? What does it really have to do with what was said? When it comes down to it, go do what you gotta do, it's that simple. Want to be a shaman, go for it, that's what I say. Hey guess we could use a few more out there.
You got some good advice here, xcept it isn't serving a purpose, cause you got your ears closed.
Take a break and I will go dust off my tin hat.

Hey the movie "Signs" was on last night, was it being shown in your part of the country?

[Ken]

Ken, My you are coming across a lot different than when this discussion began. Your little story about the tin hats is rediculous.
 ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?  ?

I agree the tin hat story was ridiculous, it was intended to be.  Some of the New Age stuff is that far-fetched.  What I was trying to decern was whether someone practicing non-medical healing methods not using any Native People rituals or methods is still considered an affront simply because it is non-medical.  I really do pay attention and that is why I ask the questions.

[fraudchaser]

You already know the answer bro.

[Ganieda]

Suppose they called themselves “ Spirit Healers??? or “Soul Fixers???

It doesn't matter what they call themselves. ? People here simply toss them in the "nuage" category and the bashing continues. ?

As to the use of "Shaman" and related words....

"Native people DO NOT use the label Shaman".. http://users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/nafps/index.htm

so, if Native people do not use the label Shaman, then why are they so upset with those who DO use? ?


Quote from "Dancing with a Ghost" ? pg. ? 116

Ojibway, [snip]...more recently, he has begun filling out that little box on forms that request information about one's religion with the initials B.A.P., for Born Again Pagan. ?