Author Topic: Lizwilldoit - non-Native banned for personal attacks, lies & hate speech  (Read 8159 times)

Offline Lizwilldoit

  • Posts: 5
Hello, my name is Liz.
Living in Arizona, Apache country. I am really sad to see some of the posts here…………..

Offline Lizwilldoit

  • Posts: 5
Use of the term shaman, charging for ceremony
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2016, 07:28:44 pm »
Dear ones:

When I announced that I was going to nursing school, my grandmother was sooooo excited and began to tell me about the healing work her grandfather did. My family has been off the rez for 2 generations and I was not raised with obvious cultural traditions. I have to admit it, in this last generation my family members have pretty much become "apples." I dismissed  my grandmothers stories as unscientific, and silly and eventually she stopped talking about it. What a loss to me now as I am following that tradition.

I was a nurse for 20 years, did a BA in psychology, taught public school for 15 years (another degree) and am now getting a masters in folk healing remedies from around the world. I was also the minority representative on my union board.

I do take instruction from a variety of sources, Indian and not …. but they must work. I once had an interesting conversation with a Cherokee fellow who stated he was the 7th son of a 7th son and member of a great medicine society. I asked my aunt about that and she laughed and said the last time anyone said that to her (an indian man) he just wanted to get in her pants. "Watch out!" was her advice. But I digress….. He was concerned about my use of ceremony…. I told him that I never say, this ceremony comes from the ____people or the ____ people. I don't have the knowledge, skill or permission to perform the ceremonies of other people.

So he asked me, "Where do your ceremonies come from, then?" I responded, "Where did your people get their ceremonies?" "From spirit," he said. "Well that is where I get mine too…" This left him scratching his head for a bit……. I had to laugh at this point. ""What? Does God only talk to the Cherokees?"

In truth I have been observing the ceremonies of several tribes in the area where I grew up, for many years. I have read the works of several famous anthropologists who have observed ceremonies around the world and been able to talk about what they have in common. Most ceremonies have a beginning, middle and an end, right? But the purpose of most of them is to bring us to a place of focus, of leaving the outside world, our worries, cares and being fully present, fully focused on the purpose of the ceremony. The middle is about having a transforming experience. One that heals, honors, celebrates, gives thanks or creates renewal. The end is to thank and honor Spirit and or others, to bless to express hope and to finally send people on their way.

All of this can be done in a cultural or non-cultural way. Sometimes it does not involve Spirit at all. There are plenty of humanist "ceremonies" that attempt to obtain the same results.

Also in the documentary film that the Cahuilla Indians made about themselves, their Chief, Katherine Siva referred to the ceremonial leaders of her tribe as "shamans." You don't have to believe me, see the film.

I have been asked to perform public ceremony and have done so a few times….  I did not charge and I did not mention anything about my ethnic background. (My father is 1/2 Chircauhua and my mother is Iriquois). I did not wear a "costume." But I did say that I was a student of many years of studying healing methods, ceremony and conscious contact from spirit. In other words, these are the tasks that these newer "shamans" must accomplish to be effective.

People ofter ask me about using the term "shaman." Here's my take on it. I could not call myself a nurse, if I didn't have license, the same goes for being a public school teacher. But traditionally one does not become recognized as a medicine woman, holy person or what ever you want to call them until they prove to a great many people that they are competent and trust worthy. THAT becomes the "licensing exam" for a traditional practitioner. Many people in my area, now refer to me as the local "shaman" and I did not start calling myself that, until they did.

As a three time college student, I have to say I have great respect for the anthropologists who have worked hard at understanding culture and artifacts. This is not to say that they always got it right or that there were not some who were exploitative. But a bad apple or two does not spoil them all…..

I have thought about charging for ceremonies…. but not as a representative from a specific tribe. I would never do that. But rather as a person who is highly connected to spirit that can help heal someone through the use of ceremony. Often times during a ceremony a person gets in touch with parts of himself that remain hidden in our everyday, busy life. And, hey, shamans have bill to pay, ya know???

Also, i offered a one semester course at a local college last year on the basics of shamanism and a retired chief from an Alaskan tribe was one of my students. He was very pleased with the class.

So on the topic of shamanism, which i have been studying for 10+ years, I can say this….. shamanism is not just about indians, and according to Katherine Siva some Indians were shamans in her opinion, and of course many are not, or have different titles or do different work, or do the same work with different methods, and so on.

The word shaman according to most anthropologists comes from Siberia and means "to see in the dark." It refers to "holy people." If there is anything, I am totally certain of it is this, no single Indian person speaks for us all. We are as unique and eclectic as the day is long and it very narrow minded to begin any statement with "All Indians do, never did, etc…." That is, unless one of us on here is a total expert on the history and evolution of ALL tribes.

I have spoken to young Apaches about things that were done in my grandmother's time and I get some curious looks. Not all of the old ways are still practiced. I must say one thing about some of these new age practitioners, in their defense, ceremony is the physical expression of an attempt to contact the divine, to create a meaningful spirituality that goes beyond religion and I as a person, a woman and an Indian have no issue with that.

If they are ignorant, about certain facts of Indian culture, I simply, gently correct them and show them a more politically correct way. I have no need to list their names here and shame them. On the other hand there are a few who are terrible, but not too many. Most are just ignorant. And c'mon guys there are plenty of ignorant indians too. We are not superior to anyone else.
Liz

Offline Laurel

  • Posts: 150
Re: Use of the term shaman, charging for ceremony
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2016, 08:18:33 pm »
You're going to be very popular around here, Lizwilldoit.


Offline Lizwilldoit

  • Posts: 5
Use of the word shaman
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2016, 09:57:35 pm »
I'm concerned about the use of the word shaman on this site. Most anthropologist believe the word "shaman" comes from Siberia and means "one who sees in the dark" or "holy person." (There some slightly different interpretations)

Not everyone who wants to be a healer, a ceremony leader, a wise advisor (functions of shamans) want to mimic Indian traditions. In N. America our primary, however inaccurate, depiction of an indigenous people who practice traditional ways are Indians. In other words we are the familiar role model.

Dr. Christa Mackinnon states that interest in shamanism is a direct response to the fact that most people are starved of a real spiritual experience. As a former Christian, I can say that I did not find satisfaction in religion. And religion focuses mostly on beliefs whereas shamanism (as well as Indian tradition) focuses more on practices. The goals of a good program of shamanism are #1 to respect the traditional practices of indigeious people, live ethically, refine awareness, cultivate wisdom and serve others. Other reasons that this resurgence is occurring is that if we are to survive as a species, we need to think globally and holistically. Also because we need some form of spiritually to develop into mature, well-rounded people, who can walk the walk not just talk about it, and a life based on shamanic principles is necessary for good mental health.

What is it they say? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Ok, so ignorant students are imitating us. I just show them a way that is more politically correct and gets the job done. Also Katherine Siva, former chief of the Cahuilla Indians of California was interviewed for a documentary film made by her tribe. In the film she refers to the holy people of her tribe as "Shamans." Don't take my word for it, see the film. I was at the primere.  I think she used this word because, it is the best word to describe the duties of these people in her tribe. It is also not true that "real indians" do not charge for ceremony. It may not be well thought of, but it does happen. I know a man in my area who makes a living that way. He is well known and respected among non-indians. I hear that some people in his tribe are not happy with what he's doing but I know his heart is in the right place. People come to him to be transformed, and he's good at it…. using both traditional and nontraditional methods.

All this being said, there are few, if any, programs of shamanism that are good, complete, or refrain from stepping on some toes. I think I got lucky with my teachers, there have been several over a period of 10 years. I agree that you can't be a shaman in one weekend, but I think you can learn a few practices for your personal life in 3 days that can be very valuable. Also, in the western world we can complete a degree program in 4 yrs when there is a teacher, textbooks, video etc available. It does not "have to" take decades to learn to be a shaman, but we don't really have textbooks or many really qualified teachers at the local college either. And even when you graduate you might be knowledgable about your craft, but are you come tent and trustworthy? This is the challenge faced by those with sincere intent, who wish to be shamans.

When I first decided, it was time to leave the field of medicine and start a healing practice involving more personal, more earthy, spiritual based practices, I read a book called "Coyote Council" in it several well educated indians weighed in on their thoughts about non-indians doing any sort of shamanic work. There was no general consensus.  Shamanic work does have some Indian like elements, like "sage-ing". A recent scientific study on this process,  found that sage prohibits the growth of molds and trust me, if you ever lived in a house with bad mold you'd say it was full of evil spirits.  So using sage has value to Indians and non-indians as well.

My bottom line here is this: there are, in fact, MANY new age frauds. And while not all indians are shamans, and not all shamans are frauds. Shamanism really does not have that much to do with indians at all. it is not an a fraudulent movement whose specific aim is to mock or misappropriate Indian ceremonies. Many people in the new age movement want what we got, spiritually speaking, and I don't blame them.

If you want to learn more about me and the work i am doing please see my introduction in the new members section.
Liz

Offline debbieredbear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1458
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Use of the word shaman
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 10:20:55 pm »
These people were listed as part of conversation in the book you cited:

Brooke Medicine Eagle, Grey Wolf, Jamie Sams, and Ed “Eagle Man” McGaa

Out of all of them, ONE is a Native and his people have denounced what he does. He pretty much just promotes "rainbow people" and has white followers. We have threads on all of them. Maybe you ought to read the threads before you tout them. For instance, Ol Brooke has been accused by many of taking advantage of her followers. She is NOT enrolled, the supposed tribal id she has on her webpage is faked.

Offline Lizwilldoit

  • Posts: 5
Re: Use of the word shaman
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2016, 11:26:27 pm »
Jaimie Sams claims to be of iroquois and Choctaw descent, not a card carrying tribal member. She says she is a member of the Wolf Clan of the Senecca nation, which seems to be the real deal. I have a friend who is 1/16 and has a card and he's whiter than snow; so what? Both Lewis Sawaquat, Ed McGaa, claim to be tribal members also; they felt that it was ok to be in the book and their ideas, did not vary dramatically for the non-Indian people in the book.

I am not a tribal member and as far as I know i was not on here talking about what qualifies one to be a tribal member. That is a different thread entirely and if you want to talk about that, hen start that thread. But before you do you might want to read what Wilma Mankiller said about tribal membership. Further, over 50% of all people of definite Indian descent in the US are not tribal members for the same reasons I am not a tribal member. My father was a Chiricahua, whose family left Fort Sills to fend for themselves when they had the opportunity (Before formal tribal recognition). The other side of my family was taken to  NYC with the promise of jobs. They were kicked off the bus and told "Good Luck." I believe that being an Indian is as much a culture as a race. I don't believe that having a card or growing up on a rez qualifies as "culture", unless you want to talk about the culture of violence, poverty and all the other negative things impacting how our people live and see themselves.
Further, there are more important things going on than misappropriation of mascot images or ceremony. Like native women who are just disappearing or the fact that in some places there is no water, still, or uranium mining. In closing I did not "tout" the book. I only said i read it.

Offline Lizwilldoit

  • Posts: 5
Re: Use of the word shaman
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2016, 11:30:35 pm »
And did you really read, and really try to understand anything I said?
Being an Indian does not make any of us above racism or bigotry.
Ceremony has a purpose… one that EVERYONE needs. Black white red or yellow. Maybe your anger isn't about this issue.
Liz

Offline debbieredbear

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1458
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: Use of the word shaman
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2016, 11:46:15 pm »
Jaimie Sams claims to be of iroquois and Choctaw descent, not a card carrying tribal member. She says she is a member of the Wolf Clan of the Senecca nation, which seems to be the real deal. I have a friend who is 1/16 and has a card and he's whiter than snow; so what? Both Lewis Sawaquat, Ed McGaa, claim to be tribal members also; they felt that it was ok to be in the book and their ideas, did not vary dramatically for the non-Indian people in the book.

I am not a tribal member and as far as I know i was not on here talking about what qualifies one to be a tribal member. That is a different thread entirely and if you want to talk about that, hen start that thread. But before you do you might want to read what Wilma Mankiller said about tribal membership. Further, over 50% of all people of definite Indian descent in the US are not tribal members for the same reasons I am not a tribal member. My father was a Chiricahua, whose family left Fort Sills to fend for themselves when they had the opportunity (Before formal tribal recognition). The other side of my family was taken to  NYC with the promise of jobs. They were kicked off the bus and told "Good Luck." I believe that being an Indian is as much a culture as a race. I don't believe that having a card or growing up on a rez qualifies as "culture", unless you want to talk about the culture of violence, poverty and all the other negative things impacting how our people live and see themselves.
Further, there are more important things going on than misappropriation of mascot images or ceremony. Like native women who are just disappearing or the fact that in some places there is no water, still, or uranium mining. In closing I did not "tout" the book. I only said i read it.

Jamie Sams has also claimed Kiowa and Cherokee at times. Read the thread on her. Also, the Seneca Wolf Clan was started by the late Twylah Nitsch and is NOT legit. Again, READ the threads on them.

And I am perfectly capable of reading and understanding the written word. I am not stupid nor uneducated. In fact, I have a Bachelor's degree from a legit university. I read what you wrote and it's all the same stuff I have read from nuagers. Nothing new.


Offline RedRightHand

  • Posts: 177
Re: Lizwilldoit - non-Native banned for personal attacks, lies & hate speech
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2016, 01:17:37 am »
"Lizwilldoit" has a bunch of porn profiles online. In all of the ones I saw (pass the eye bleach) she says she's caucasian. I'd support moving this thread to frauds.

Offline AClockworkWhite

  • Posts: 194
Re: Lizwilldoit - non-Native banned for personal attacks, lies & hate speech
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 01:38:29 am »
Are there any tribes Jamie Sams hasn't claimed yet?
I came here for the popcorn and stayed for the slaying of pretenders.

Offline AClockworkWhite

  • Posts: 194
Re: Lizwilldoit - non-Native banned for personal attacks, lies & hate speech
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2016, 02:02:16 am »
Okay...
 Lizwilldoit as a username is most likely an egregious understatement.
WHYYYYYYY do so many of these fakers end up being sex freaks?
What is it about this shamanism BS?
I came here for the popcorn and stayed for the slaying of pretenders.

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1415
    • Standing Rock Tourism
Re: Lizwilldoit - non-Native banned for personal attacks, lies & hate speech
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2016, 12:56:49 pm »
i am sorry to say but if this woman had any native blood why not be enrolled? Then because Iroquois Nation is a confederation of tribes which tribe is she claiming? Plus she forgets YES AS NATIVE PEOPLE I DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL HER NO! If she is from a nation which family and who are her relatives? A very common question among native people
In Spirit