Author Topic: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it  (Read 12059 times)

Offline catbus

  • Posts: 60
posts deleted because apparently my terminology was offensive
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 05:40:46 am by catbus »

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1415
    • Standing Rock Tourism
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 01:51:32 pm »
as a Lakota-Dakota woman i hear what you are saying some of the things that are said to us when we
tell people that what they are doing is not right, they say:
  • Oh i understand your people lost their culture! :o
You dont know your culture and i am preserving it for you ???
  • We are only trying to save your people's ways >:(
We are only doing what belongs to the world :o
[/list]
In Spirit

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1415
    • Standing Rock Tourism
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2013, 01:53:20 pm »
The problem is they take a little part of the culture and change it to what they want
making short cut, they dont understand the reason for doing things
In Spirit

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3288
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2013, 08:10:19 pm »
And...

* If we're doing it wrong, tell us how to do it the right way!

(translation: "We promise we won't kill people if you'll let us come to all your ceremonies even though we've shown we're totally disrespectful!  We don't respect your community and it's standards, we just want to steal the bits we like. We're better than you so we don't have to earn the right to do ceremony, or be told we aren't the right person to do the ceremony.  We'll decide what's right and wrong so STFU about your opinions and just give us the seekrits!"

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1415
    • Standing Rock Tourism
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2013, 09:00:31 pm »
It is like they want to take the last of who we are with little regard for the truth.
Our ceremonial ways about healing and I believe that all culture have those ways
they need to look in themselves not out of the themselves to the peace inside.

Just like the many people on this site who continue to do things even though our people object,
I seen where one person said those people at NAFPS are all non Native who want to tell people
That is not what i see---I see a great partnership with people who are doing their best to keep
people from hurting other by stoppping the frauds.
In Spirit

Offline Odelle

  • Posts: 62
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 12:15:21 am »
I hate to say it, but because I know that criticisms like this are most likely to perceived as a personal attack, I usually don't say anything, which can actually be even more offensive to the person! I have a friend who was once pretty close, but then one day he was telling me about Burning Man and paying however much money for a Shaman class and learning how to communicate with his spirit animal and all of this stuff and I didn't say anything, but he somehow got the message that I didn't approve and since then we haven't really been friends. I wish I'd known how to let him know that the whole business is racist and also a scam--without making it sound like I think he's a racist and a fool. I just don't know how to do that, though, and because I am white, myself, I think it makes it harder to talk to other white people about this stuff. So I usually just say nothing. In the case of my friend, I really didn't want to hurt his feelings, but in the case of people who aren't my friends, I just don't want to waste my energy saying stuff to someone who isn't going to listen, anyway.

For those of you on this forum who are ex-pretendians or New Age followers, do you have any ideas how to talk to someone about this kind of thing in a way that will make people listen when you are white or just non-Indian?
:>

Offline catbus

  • Posts: 60
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2013, 03:56:37 pm »
posts deleted because apparently my terminology was offensive
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 05:41:57 am by catbus »

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1415
    • Standing Rock Tourism
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2013, 06:05:01 pm »
I love the honesty ;)
Sometimes it is hard to explain to white people that something just dont belong to them.
I havwe been called a racist and that i hate white people but that is far from the truth,
i respect people who are respectful
In Spirit

Offline Odelle

  • Posts: 62
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2013, 08:34:47 pm »
Catbus:
Quote
Perhaps white people may actually be more open to other whites informing them about racism. Because I'm not white, what gets tossed back at me is that I am racist, and being judgemental because I hate white people. Well, yeah, I do hate a majority white people, can't help it, but that's not why I hate newagers. I confront the newagers because they are racist, offensive, culture vultures who hurt traditional communities.

I hope this doesn't seem like a rant, and offers some helpful insight.

It's not a rant, or if it is, it's one that needs to be said. It's always helpful to hear other people's perspective. I don't know if white people are more open to other white people informing them about racism. It probably hurts less to hear it from the same kind of person, but it's also easier to just dismiss the message because of the messenger. The attitude people sometimes have is, "you're a white person, too. You're trying to represent this other culture, and that's racist against people of that culture. Let them speak for themselves. Also, stop acting like you think you're better than other white people." This kind of attitude makes me back off, usually. But I'm also not victimized by the Nuage attitude the way that you and other people on this forum are: it's not my culture that's getting threatened by this kind of thing. In a sense, this whole thing *is* personal--for the people in communities who are victimized by Nuagers. Cultural survival is very, very personal and culture misappropriation and mockery is personally offensive to the people whose culture is being misappropriated and mocked.

You said, you hate most white people, and that's useful to hear because you explained why you feel that way. As a white person, hearing that is useful. Otherwise, how would I know? I think a lot of Nuagers only interact with other Nuagers. Their experience of the cultures they are stealing from is totally controlled by Nuage books and Nuage leaders. I'm sure it's painful for a Nuager to hear that their actions are offensive. I know it is, actually, just from reading posts on this forum. But they need to hear what you have to say and how you feel, because otherwise they will continue to be ignorant. And if your words hurt their feelings, so what?

earth:

Quote
Sometimes it is hard to explain to white people that something just dont belong to them.
I havwe been called a racist and that i hate white people but that is far from the truth,
i respect people who are respectful

I'm sorry you have to deal with people like that, especially when you're actually doing them a favor letting them know that they are doing wrong, but I suspect that even though some of them say this kind of thing, in their hearts they hear what you're saying and they realize their actions are wrong. Hopefully they eventually stop and change their ways.
:>

Offline catbus

  • Posts: 60
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2013, 02:19:34 am »
Posts in this thread deleted because my terminology was offensive to some.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 05:38:39 am by catbus »

Offline catbus

  • Posts: 60
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 05:40:03 am »
posts deleted because apparently my terminology was offensive

used2bnaf

  • Guest
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 05:28:36 pm »

For those of you on this forum who are ex-pretendians or New Age followers, do you have any ideas how to talk to someone about this kind of thing in a way that will make people listen when you are white or just non-Indian?

Nope.  When I left the group I had belonged to for 10 years, I was clear on the reasons I was leaving.  Racism, cultural appropriation, etc....
Though these groups are not "cults" they are controlling.  It truly is like trying to talk to a wall.  I understand though.  I had to do my own heavy lifting, prayer, and reasoning with myself before I had the courage to walk away.  Anything from the outside that challenges what the group believes or does is automatically circumspect.  I have no real contact with anyone from the group I belonged to.  I still see a few on FB.  There is no real communication though.  There is 1 other person that I know of that left.  We talk some from time to time and compare notes on our experiences.  She still has a bit more contact than I do.

Offline catbus

  • Posts: 60
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2013, 06:18:25 pm »


Though these groups are not "cults" they are controlling.  It truly is like trying to talk to a wall.  I understand though.  I had to do my own heavy lifting, prayer, and reasoning with myself before I had the courage to walk away.  Anything from the outside that challenges what the group believes or does is automatically circumspect

I find this can be true w/ almost any group. Humans can tend to be intolerant to ways of seeing things that differ from their own, and I don't think in this modern age that has changed as much as other may think. Perhaps it is natural, humans build their common rhetoric and ways of thinking so they can accomplish a common goal, even if that common goal is just perpetuating a power-hungry new age lineage full of illusion.

I once studied w/ some very manipulative teachers who represent very respected lineages in China. Luckily, I got away from them before they managed to brainwash me (as if I'm even brainwashable, lol), but they were sure tricky with their clever responses to any criticisms. When you try to point out that they are being arrogant, egotistic, manipulative, and just putting on the big fake charitable, humble monk facade, they come back at you with stuff like "you have a chi blockage and this anger you have towards me is really just the blockage coming out. Just lay down because you aren't thinking well". Or they say, you are unhappy because of you 'karmic past'. And ofcourse the way they want to heal the 'problem', is try to get you to have sex w/ them in some ancient way, or something else manipulative and for personal gain.

I couldn't deal with that kinda BS, I called my parents at a certain point and they told me to leave the place, so I left, and I  still simply refuse to listen to any teachers who can't be humble in the least, or who think they got all the answers to the Universe. Masters, shamans, gurus, coven-leaders, so much arrogance and silliness among so many of them I have talked to, that I'd say it's a good idea to be skeptical of anything anyone says. I don't care if they are a traditional lineage, or a new age one, people are so damn full of vanity, ego, and arrogance, that you always gotta be on your guard when people start claiming they represent any kind of wisdom or sacred teachings. I've even been warned by NDN's of certain elders that I shouldn't talk to, because certain people have reputation of using their culture/ancestry to try to get sex, money, or just brainwashed, devoted followers who will eat up any garbage they say.

So, its always good to be skeptical. The 'teachers' will have a clever answer for everything, but if people learn to think for themselves at all times and do what they know is right, they can't be harmed by shady teachers.

Offline milehighsalute

  • Posts: 357
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2013, 01:13:46 am »
wish i coulda saw the juicy stuff before it was deleted...........regardless of if it was offensive or not......now is the timke where maybe people NEED to start getting offended

Offline catbus

  • Posts: 60
Re: 'for the last time, it isn't personal' - new-agers just don't get it
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2013, 04:25:15 am »
wish i coulda saw the juicy stuff before it was deleted...........regardless of if it was offensive or not......now is the timke where maybe people NEED to start getting offended

milehighsalute: I may try to re-do the most important thoughts expressed in the original writings, and if I do, I shall post them here again. While I certainly agree it's time people probably started getting offended, it was not a white new ager who was offended by the terminology I used, but a fellow person who fights new-agers. Therefore, I may not express certain ideas on this forum, but overall, the idea of the writings is this:

When the new agers get attacked for being culture vultures, they come back with personal attacks. And they just don't get it, it's isn't personal, it's about respect for people and cultures, things that are not even truly important in the hearts of colonial-minded folks. I have read some attacks of NAFPS online, attacking individual moderators/members, both white and NDN, but I see these attacks as irrelevant also, as also making cultural issues into personal attacks. The truth is the truth no matter what, and there needs to be as many people to spread the truth and be militant/insistent about it as possible. Because it is plain to see ignorance and illusion, racist vanity and colonialistic invasion, abound in this modern consumeristic and colonialistic world's cultural ideals. If nobody fights the newagers, they will continue their culture raping and it will spread into more and more popular trends. Just like all of these hipster douches at the music festivals running around in feather headdresses. Culture raping is catching on as trendy and cool, whether it is in the art, fashion, or spiritual traditions, most all aspects of white Amerikan culture are appraoched from a colonialistic, euro-centric, or consumeristic way of thinking.