Author Topic: Do I have this right?  (Read 28943 times)

Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2012, 04:55:22 pm »
I have issues with face recognition. When I watched that tv show Heroes it took half way through before I could tell the three men with dark hair apart.

Anyway, I hope you take some time and re-read when it's not so "present". Maybe in 6 months. You may
see things differently. I haven't seen anyone attacking you. Just asking, communicating.

Maybe take time to think that the people asking don't understand, so they're asking, instead of taking it as an attack.

press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet


  • Guest
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2012, 05:43:20 pm »
Hello Gwaewael

Please stay. This is a good healthy place. I do not think you will find better.

Offline nemesis

  • Posts: 526
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2012, 08:11:53 pm »

I hope you don't mind me saying this but the way you are reacting to people in this threads reminds me a lot of how I used to be some years ago after I experienced a series of traumatic losses and traumas.

I don't know if you can relate to this but, at the time when I was extremely vulnerable and traumatised sometimes some days were worse than others and my stress and depression reached unbearable levels.

On an especially bad day when, for example. I had an insane amount of work to do and not enough time to do it in I would start a thread on an internet forum that would kind of go the way this one has gone.  It would make my entire day traumatic and I would spend a lot of time posting frantically and feeling misunderstood by others.  The result was that, while my situation was worse in the long run, in the short term I at least had a massive distraction from all the thoughts and memories that I didn't want to think about or remember.

In retrospect I realise that I was recreating the type of traumatic events (at least in my mind) that I was trying to run away from.

Maybe this makes no sense at all to you and I've got the wrong end of the stick, but I was just wondering whether this might be something you can relate to?

edited to add

I'm a person who makes a lot of mistakes.  I am in some ways very clever and in some very stupid.  I have some unusual fields of knowledge that many people don't know about, but at the same time I do not know all there is to know about my specialist subjects. It took me a long time to learn some basic truths; that it is OK not to know everything, it is OK to make mistakes, even it is OK to be a flawed person who is not good all of the time.  I just do the best I can to do the right thing and learn from my mistakes.

I mention this because I think you come across as someone who is very hard on yourself for making mistakes and I sense that this is why you might feel so attacked when other people ask you stuff. 

People here do not require you to know everything.  On the contrary an attitude of humble interest and respectful curiosity is, IME, welcomed.  All of us here have made mistakes at some point and nobody is perfect. 

I understand that you feel threatened and put down but I do not think that this was anyone's intention.  I hope that you can stick around and get to know people.

my advice would be to not be in a hurry about the process. Take you time to get to know people naturally and with no strain and no big worry about making a mess of things.  If someone corrects you about something they are not telling you off just trying to help you to understand things that you might have misunderstood.

I hope that you feel comfortable to stick around long enough to really know people here as they are generally a knowledgeable, interesting and caring community of people.  :)

« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 08:24:29 pm by nemesis »

Offline clearwater

  • Posts: 105
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2012, 08:25:11 pm »
Hey Gwaewael--

See? There was an ulterior reason for your coming here. That is not a judgment, it's an observation. I appreciate your post, your honesty, and the courage it took to step up and say that, what you said n your last few posts...

It's a little funny because my computer keeps doing things to me. I saw your post much earlier and actually typed in a very lengthy reply, then hit the wrong button and *poof* it was gone. That's the second time that's happened to me in composing replies to you. Seeing how it's my computer that brought me here to begin with, I figure I'll just let all that lead the way LOL. So, I just let it be, figuring someone else would be the first to step up ... and not tear into you ... but offer some comfort, if that's what you want to call it. I think I feel enough about this forum to know that you would be treated fairly.

Mental illness ... I suppose I could print some membership cards, and you and I can be charter members of our own club. I have demons too, and I deal with them how I deal with them. I am a work in progress, and it seems you are too. Truth be told, the entire world is nuts these days, and there are no real excuses.

Remember stuff? Heck, I have issues there too. I literally forget a person's name as soon as the sound of their name leaves their lips, as I 'm still shaking their hand. For some reason, in my life, that part of my brain was never developed. I have come to accept that about myself, and I joke with folks that my brain is made of swiss cheese, because it has all those air pockets in it too!

The only way you can believe that folks here have attacked you, is only because you attack yourself inside. It's simply not possible that you can see this outside of yourself unless it's inside of your self, to be seen. Something is eating you up inside and that's why you are here. I don't think you knew that when you came here. But I think you're getting a sense of this now. It has nothing to do with what Indians are called, or whether you did the right thing in sending an email. Those were your self-prescribed tickets in the door, that's all. I just think you didn't see that yourself.

I too don't see anyone attacking you as a person, I do see a lot of reacting to how you seem to be presenting yourself up to this point. With your last few posts, I see that the dynamic has changed. Healing can begin, but it begins with you. This is a good thing. The wheel in you has turned, just a little, but it has moved. I see that. What you do with that is up to you.

I don't think you are going to be chewed up here, as long as you remain authentic to your self. When you came into these forums, you were cloaked in something else, presenting your questions and feelings as topics when in truth, you were here for another reason, even if you didn't know that at a conscious level. It seems to me, you have taken a step here in this thread, the dynamic has changed, in a good way, and that your true intentions and questions are coming to the front now.

Let me offer to you that Life is benevolent and it's good. The folks here I do feel a part of in a small sort of way, and I think the reasons I feel that way have been expressed very well in this thread by others here. There is a kindness and a love to be found if you're open to it, but only you can do that. I don't need to pontificate anymore than I already have. I feel my participation with you in this thread has helped to crack the shell for you, so to speak. It's all good, no one here wishes you any ill will, I just do not see that. In fact, I see the very opposite. I see folks wishing you well, and good will, in this and the other thread, but you know, if you're thick skulled and thick skinned, it does get kinda old I can only imagine, for the regulars of this forum too.

I too don't wish to see you go, but I don't know you, and all I can offer is that. My feeling is, your journey has just begun. I wish you well. And I mean that literally.


  • Guest
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2012, 09:03:40 pm »
Hello earthw7.  Thank you for including me in your prayer list for the day for healing.  I need it.  Thank you for your post.  What you wrote me was very kind.

I’m trying to figure out what the other people are trying to teach me here, but I can’t learn it the way they’re presenting it.  They’re being too harsh with me; I can’t learn.  They have to be gentle.  I’m ill and their methods are hurting me.  If there were a deaf person, they would have to teach them differently than the other people.

I have no past experiences that would make me easily angered.  I’m not considered an angry person.  I’ve never been treated badly like this before.  In my culture being treated this way is considered abusive.  I’ve shown this forum to two other white people, and they agreed with me.  It’s abusive.  What kind of lessons are the people on this forum trying to teach me?  I have no idea.  I read every post very carefully and I have no clue.  What do you even mean by a lesson?  Is there maybe a cultural difference in what types of learning are called lessons?  Before you can teach me any lessons, you may first have to explain what a lesson is.

Thank you for saying I don’t have to remember who is native and who is not, and that people will respect me by reminding me in their posts.  My memory is very bad.

Offline nemesis

  • Posts: 526
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2012, 09:26:49 pm »
I am genuinely sorry if my post upset you.  I was not attacking you and did not intend to hurt you.

I am white by the way.

Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2012, 09:40:34 pm »

Well, again, I can only speak for myself on what a lesson is. Because really,
these things are quite personal, at least in my opinion (imo).  :)

When I first came to this board, what I found I was being taught was an entirely
different view of the world. One that comes from the eyes of people who have
never known "privilege". In fact, I didn't even know I was privileged or "white
privilege" as it is called.

So, I did some google searches on it and read different accounts from different
people, bloggers, whoever. Because, well, I'm the kind of person who likes to
hear from all sides of the issue in order to grasp from different angles of view point.
Because I can't trust my own view point when it comes to Native issues, such as
"white privlege".. Why?

Well, because I'm not Native. I haven't grown up in their culture or been around
a reservation to know what it is like. My view point is one that looks in from the
outside, and sees only the surface. Which, is not truth. Because the surface is
only a reflection of my own preconceptions, or those of the people around me, or who've
said things to me based on their own view, which again, is from the outside looking
at the surface of something and never seeing anything but a reflection of their
thoughts. Think of it like a pond, and the surface is a reflection of you looking in.
You don't see what anyone it is talking about, all you can see is your own reflection.
So, you get a couple other people who look, and they see what you see, naturally.
Because they too, are only looking at their own reflections and not seeing beyond that.

So, one lesson to think about, or on, is that what is being said to you here, is
coming from beneath the surface of what you have perceived or known thus far
of Native peoples and culture. It is not what you may have thought, or thought
that you knew. So it comes at you as very foreign, and then you feel lost or
attacked because you don't know what it's about. Such as believing it is abusive.

Since you are mingling with people from a culture and view of life that you have
never known before, it's going to take a beating on what you've always known or
believed beforehand. This may seem like an attack by the people here, but it is not.
It is simply knocking through the walls that have been built, through no fault really,
of anyone except that this world is quite f'd up.

So, a lesson may be, possibly, to try and put your view aside. Take the people here
at their word, if they say they are not attacking you, believe them. And realize that
what you are feeling is something else, maybe the reflection will waver a bit and you'll
get a glimpse into the pond and see something you didn't see before.

Also, realize that you are not the first person to be here and not understand. Nor was
I. This forum has been here for years. Many of the people here have been here for years.
They seen this time and again, it is not new for them. It is new for you. No one intends
to treat you badly or abuse you.

Again, perspective is very important and if you cling to only what you see, then that's all
you'll ever see of this forum, and of the world. And believe me, there is so much more in life,
everywhere, than simply what you or I or anyone sees from their own personal view, belief,

So.. what is a lesson? A lesson is anything that anyone can learn from. And everything
everyone has posted here has been an opportunity for you to learn something from. It
is not school where you are told what to learn from the lesson. It's not that kind of lesson.
It's a different kind of lesson. No one can tell you what to learn from the lesson, or what
even, the lesson is, again, imo. I'm not trying to be vague or give you riddles, but see,
that's part of the world you grew up in. Where lessons are things that we are given while
being told what it is we are supposed to learn and what the lesson is.

That's part of the reflection I was talking about early. You don't know this kind of lesson,
so all you can see is "lesson" in the way you were taught it, and being presented with this
kind of lesson is lost to you. You don't know what it means, you can't see it. It's frustrating.

So, perhaps just put it in the back of your mind and know that you don't understand it because
the reflection of what you do know, or believe you know is blocking you from seeing beneath
the surface. It's because of your limitations that you don't understand, not anyone else. And
by "limitations" I mean of your view, that of the world you were taught to view. I do not mean
anything about you "personally". 

This is not an attack, or a put down. So please don't take it that way.

I hope this made sense..

« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 09:55:30 pm by critter - a white non-ndn person »
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet


  • Guest
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2012, 10:10:48 pm »
Hi snorks!  I’m sorry to hear about your traumatic brain injury and that you’re having problems following this discussion.  Thanks for sharing this with us.  People with brain problems are often made to feel ashamed.  Are you worried that you have to hide your condition?  I am.  Thanks for speaking up.

Hi critter!  I have the face thing too!  (For those who don’t know, we’re talking about a difficulty in learning or remembering faces.  You run into people you know who look like complete strangers.  Some say, “Hello”  in a tone that implies you know them, and you don’t know what to say.  They look like strangers!  Since you have difficulty recognizing people by their faces, you often recognize them by other features, like their hair color, etc.)

critter, have you ever tried watching Platoon?  It’s a movie about a bunch of people all the same sex (men) mostly all the same age (young), all with identical hair (buzz cut, no apparent hair color), mostly all belonging to the same race (white), all wearing the same clothing (army outfit), and all located in the same setting (a jungle).  You had to get them by their faces alone and there was AN ENTIRE PLATOON of them!  I never learned to spot any character at all, not even the lead.  Now, though, I’ve learned to recognize the faces of the major actors from seeing other movies.

Hi Sad-Old-Druid!  Thanks for asking me to stay!  That's very encouraging.  It's truly sweet.

Offline clearwater

  • Posts: 105
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2012, 10:22:33 pm »
Oh gee, Gwaewael, you didn't mention me. I suppose I should take that personally. I'm sure it was an honest oversight. I'm a sensitive person. I might get my feelings hurt, you know? I too am mentally ill. In case you missed that point. I suppose I mentioned hippie or something, now you ignore me. Shunned. Should I be offended? It depends on what I choose to follow.

I will offer you a simple but powerful technique that will help considerably with your understanding of what is going on here. You need to take the leap from the word read on paper, to hearing these words aloud. This technique is very simple, powerful and can help you, in my opinion. Take it and use it, or don't.

For this technique, you will need to get the help of someone in your life who you have positive feelings for and can trust to be truthful and honest with you, such as a minister, friend, someone in your life who you know will be truthful with you, even with things you don't wish to hear. The technique I am about to tell you won't work if you find someone who will only agree with you on everything. You don't need more self-validation of your feelings.

Print out these threads, and have that person read them to you, out loud. The spoken word you hear has a very different power and impact that the word you read from a page. The ears are a more direct path to the heart, that the brain is, which has to process the information... Having these words read to you will bypass your brain and the information will go directly to your mind, and filter on to your heart. Then, you will find, I believe, you have been listening to the wrong things.

I am not a practitioner of any medicine or anything like that. As I read through you, this occurred to me as something that will help you to open your heart and stop closing your mind. That is not an attack, or judgment, or anything like that. It is not, because I am the one who wrote these words, and I am telling you it is not.

In making these posts, all I am doing is being true to myself. If that offends, oh well. Sorry about that.

Again, I wish you well.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 10:26:46 pm by clearwater »


  • Guest
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2012, 04:17:17 am »
Hi clearwater!  I’m not ignoring you!  It’s just that I’m new to posting.  I took so long to write my posts that other people beat me to it.  I didn’t know.  I just answered the few posts I knew about in order, answering earthw7 first.  Now the posts on the thread are all out of order and the thread doesn‘t flow.  It’s kind of jarring to read.

I’ve been losing a lot of my computer messages lately too.  I think it’s synchronicity.  (I’m New Age.)  Maybe you believe in this also.  Now I compose my posts for this forum on a word processing document where they won’t get lost, then I copy them to the forum.  I’m sorry you’ve lost lengthy messages to me.  Thank you for rewriting this one.  (And maybe the other one.)  You’re right.  Your computer led you well.  People have been offering me some comfort, and I’ve been treated fairly.

Thank you for telling me about your mental illness.  I’m bipolar.  Can I ask what you are?  Actually, I think there are excuses.  (We don’t need to discuss it.)

I’m from Wisconsin.  Cheese is our big thing.  I really like your Swiss cheese brain joke.  I can use it.

I joined this forum to defend Starhawk.  That was my agenda.  I thought I’d make a few posts, wait for the comments to come in on her, read them, then leave.  But I got waylaid by the responses on etcetera.  There was nothing deep or mysterious about my coming here on my part, unless it was my destiny?  Well, maybe it was.  I might sometime need to persuade some Ho Chunks that I’ve never met to take a certain unusual action.  If they’re suspicious, I could find myself needing to explain that I’m an eclectic neopagan, but not THAT kind of eclectic neopagan.  (I can proudly state that I’ve never taken part in a sweat lodge, gone on a vision quest, done a pipe ceremony or a sun dance, worked with a medicine wheel, or been to a healing circle.  You name it, I haven’t done it.)

I’m sorry, I disagree with you.  People can hurt each other.  While you can learn to some extent not to be hurt by others, you can’t do it completely.  So people should treat each other well.  I can improve, but I’m not super-human.

How can anyone say no one has attacked me here when I was called a “white bloated pig”?  (It’s OK, critter, I’m laughing.  I’ve been picturing a white bloated pig lately floating over a concert crowd, because I went to a Pink Floyd concert and saw their pink pig doing that.)  But what’s all this about people reacting to how I present myself?  Why did I get that “wow!!”?  I’m truly stumped.   It’s nice of you to say that my wheel has turned a little bit, but really I haven’t changed that I‘ve noticed.  I said I was going to leave (I was) and then I decided to stay and beg for mercy, because people started to treat me better.  I thought there was some hope then.  Everybody else seems to be changing.

My original posts were on topics I care about.  I DID actually want people to stop using “NDN” in favor of “Indian”.  (That’s just weird.  Let it drop.)  I WAS actually worried about my email and wanted help with it.  I guess I’m as strange as I seem.  My one devious reason for posting was to get attention.  And those topics were actually what was on my mind.  That was it.  I didn’t have anything better to say.  Isn’t wanting attention authentic?  I mean, if that’s where you are?  (Go on, have a field day with this one.)

This whole post has been very kind.  Thank you for wanting to crack the shell for me.

Hi clearwater!  (Second post)

Your technique sounds very powerful.  I’m afraid to use it currently.  (I’m afraid of what I would find out about myself.)  I'll continue to give it thought.  I don’t feel attacked or judged that you made this suggestion.  You said everything very well.

I wish you well.


  • Guest
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2012, 04:19:12 am »
I'll be answering some other posts later.  There are quite a few.

Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2012, 05:12:40 am »
LOL  it was an attack, at the time I was pretty livid with you and I wanted
to make you open your eyes..  I apologized for it. I'm really not a nasty mean person..

There's nothing wrong with wanting attention as long as your honest about it, and
don't take offense when someone calls on it and asks you to sit down for a bit, imo. :)

Thanks for coming clean and admitting your first motives for being here.

And there is no rush here. If you're overwhelmed, come back and reply in a couple days
no one will care if you don't reply immediately.. or if you reply 3 weeks from now.
press the little black on silver arrow Music, 1) Bob Pietkivitch Buddha Feet

Offline clearwater

  • Posts: 105
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2012, 06:41:15 am »
Well Gwaewael that's all cool. I did not wish to overstep my boundaries with you. I know words have power. For some reason or another, I have the gift of words (blessing and a curse all wrapped up in one), and for some reason or another, I clicked my way into your thread quite by accident. So yeah, there is something to synchronicity.

For what it's worth (FWIW), my ex-wife is from Wisconsin. And, at least one (maybe more) of the folks participating in this thread with you, is from Wisconsin. So it's not like we're aliens from Mars. Well ... *I* might be from Mars, but I can't speak for the rest LOL. But you have to admit, Wisconsin is pretty out there in space (just kidding).

Cheese. And beer. And Root Beer (I drank the real A&W Root Beer in Wisconsin, it's the real deal). And cows, Lots and lots of cows. And all "yous" guys .... eh? I think I got that nailed.

Maybe it's me, Gwaewael, but I detect a change in your tone, and I like it. But again, maybe it's just me.

If it's okay with you, I'll step out of this thread now, and maybe check in now and then. I lurk (just hang out and read without commenting) more than I post here, and I don't come here all that much. I have the highest regard and respect for the folks who make up this forum, and as I said before, I do feel a part of this place in my own small way. Even you have something positive to contribute ultimately to the whole body of understanding. I just hope I am correct in my sense that you are being sincere.

All I would add to this on my way out the door here, is that this forum is primarily about weeding out fraudulent activity, you know, those folks who rob a culture and try to profit from it. It's not really a board for mental and spiritual healing, although no one is going to not let that happen here. Usually, that unfolds itself. And as critter pointed out, there are a lot of folks who come here with hidden agendas, for whatever reason, and sometimes with a chip on their shoulder. Sometimes not. I'm glad you are receptive to all this, or at least seem so to me.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 06:45:15 am by clearwater »

Offline clearwater

  • Posts: 105
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2012, 06:59:12 am »
   I said I was going to leave (I was) and then I decided to stay and beg for mercy, because people started to treat me better.  I thought there was some hope then.  Everybody else seems to be changing. 

I would just add, that I respectfully disagree with you. The only change I see here, is in you. But as I say, maybe it's just me seeing that.

Thanks for participating.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 07:01:29 am by clearwater »

Offline earthw7

  • Posts: 1415
    • Standing Rock Tourism
Re: Do I have this right?
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2012, 02:04:39 pm »
Everyone here is just human beings that care about protection of Cultures,
Human Beings is what we all want to be, as our people say not everyone is
a human being that we must move toward it everyday, A human being is someone
with compassion, understanding and love for the people.
My daughter is Bipolar so i understand
Lesson in life what are they????
1. To be able to listen with a open heart
2. To understand the worlds view is very different in different cultures
3. That you can not speak for another people or nation
4. That some time a person must take two step back and look at themselves
5. Healing is what my culture is about
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 04:16:12 pm by earthw7 »
In Spirit