Author Topic: Sizzle Flambé says Hello  (Read 57050 times)

Offline Sizzle Flambé

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Re: Sizzle Flambé says Hello
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2009, 11:36:32 pm »
What it boils down for me is that I don't care if he's enrolled somewhere or not, enrollment doesn't define a person's culture.  [...]  He gets it right when it comes to Indian humor, he writes articles that are very knowledgeable of his subjects.  He's a little out there with the alien abduction stuff, but a person can make a healthy career out of that kind of writing...ask Whitley Strieber.

So as long as he's entertaining (popular) and persuasive, being actually genuine isn't important?

By this standard, Carlos Castaneda and Lynn Andrews have it made. Why are THEY on fraud lists?

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So again, (one more time) it seems this is more of a battle on a personal level between the two of you (in fact it's obvious).

Then are all the people on <http://www.geocities.com/dontpay2pray> there because of someone's "personal" dislike -- not because of principled objections to their false representations?

Well, I suppose there's a gaping loophole to let in every fake "Indian" on that list: get adopted by an enrolled Indian in Canada -- it instantly qualifies you to register as "Indian" yourself under Canadian law, even if you have not a drop of Indian ancestry and never learned anything about any tribe's culture:

<http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/br/is/scs/faq-eng.asp#q23>: "Canadian law is different in that registration as an Indian under the provisions of the Indian Act is not based on percentage of Indian blood quantum. Under previous Indian Acts, it was possible for non-Indians to gain Indian status through marriage. Under the current Act, non-Indians can gain status through adoption by registered Indians."

Offline Cetan

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Re: Sizzle Flambé says Hello
« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2009, 01:47:06 am »
Adoption is not something done lightly, read Earth7's thread  on adoption ceremonies

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: Sizzle Flambé says Hello
« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2009, 03:08:59 am »
Gee Sizzle...You really don't seem to understand the principles underlaying what people here target and what people here DON'T target, and WHY .

This is just how I understand this, but after participating here for a few years this is what I have noticed...

People who post here don't usually target peoples claims to be of Native descent if this is the only questionable thing they are doing.

First off, as has already been explained to you, as long as people aren't claiming a political identity , whether or not they are enrolled may not be that important in decideing if a person is somehow legitimately connected with a Native community.

While it may be possible to prove whether or not a person is enrolled, even that can be difficult and both sides of a debate on this subject can post scans of letters and documents , but the other side can make equally compelling arguments that all this is fake. Unless you know the people involved, this can be almost impossible to verify one way or another and the fights over this can rage on for years , never getting resolved.

If a person isn't enrolled and claims some Native descent, proving this is non existent can be next to impossible , as the person can always claim their ancestor was wrongly recorded and occaisionally this may be true.

If you want to go after people purely because they claim some unverifiable Native descent , i gotta tell you , even if you could recruit hundreds of people to help you, and you made this your full time job for the next 20 years. and the only progress you are likely to make is creating a lot of angry people and disagreement.     

The next problem is that even if someone claims to be of native descent and you do the very intensive and time consuming genealogical research to prove beyond all reasonable doubt the person can not possibly have any substantial amount of native blood, you still haven't proven they are a liar or a bad person because many people were told this by their families, just believed it to be true and were accepted into a native community for decades on this basis. Not everyone who mistakenly claims Native ancestry is a deceptive person.

As I understand it, it is for all these reasosn people who post in NAFPS don't generally worry about validating peoples ancestry unless this is being used to gain public trust.

The works of fiction you have cited in this thread , by David Seals, are works of fiction, and don't really involve "public trust"   

The books written by Lynn Andres and carlos Castenada were not presented as works of fiction and both these people also gave workshops based on the allegedly real spiritual teachings presented in these books. That is the difference. it is a subtle distinction, but it is a distinction it would really help you to be able to make.

People who post in NAFPS generally target people who are advertising and charging for Ceremonies , or Spiritual or cultural teachings which the Spiritual authorities of the tribe these cultural practices are maintained by , say should not be commercialized.

Books sold as fiction would not fall in this catagory.

People who post in NAFPS generally target situations where what is being taught as a Native tradition isn't, and the person teaching this just made this up , or has partly made this up.

Books sold as fiction might be offensive but would not usually fall in this catagory.

People who post in NAFPS also target people claiming some sort of position of authority , when this authority is not recognized by the persons claimed Native community.

Writing a book marketed as fiction is not claiming a position of authority.

Also using knowledge of Native ways to obtain sexual favors will get someone criticized here.

People who claim to be a charity serving Native people who may be  using too large a portion the funds for personal use , will also sometimes get discussed here.

Peoples personal claims of ancestry , just in themselves, usually aren't questioned unless this is being used to prop up other claims which involve the public trust.

being an author of fictional books does not.

Or would you also go after authors like Tony Hillerman, who's books contain Navajo characters and a fictionalized Navajo culture?

I hope this helps you understand why people here aren't supporting you.

I think there is usually some well thought out reasons and principles behind what we choose to target and what we don't choose to target.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 04:13:02 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline Sizzle Flambé

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Re: Sizzle Flambé says Hello
« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2009, 04:37:27 am »
People who post here don't usually target peoples claims to be of Native descent if this is the only questionable thing they are doing.

Oh my, it hasn't been. More from Colorado AIM's "why" page, footnote #11:
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In fact, a Black Hills Alliance investigation of Seals was convened in 1982 after he "accidentally" bankrupted the organization's newspaper, Paha Sapa Report, by causing the wrong front page to be printed. He then wandered up the street to volunteer his services to the Leonard Peltier Defense Committee, located in Rapid City in those days, later disappearing with about $1500 in donations. Reemerging in Denver, he began his ongoing campaign to undermine the credibility of Churchill, Glenn Morris and Colorado AIM more generally, while writing his initially selfpublished parody of the movement, Pow Wow Highway (made into a movie by exBeatle George Harrison over the strenuous objections of the Northern Cheyenne).

And he keeps leveraging his "Native American author" claim for more and more influence.

First off, as has already been explained to you, as long as people aren't claiming a position of political leadership, [....]

In big glaring green letters?

David Seals
Secretary and Ambassador, Bear Butte Council
(44 hereditary chiefs, of the many Confederacies and leagues formed in the Louisiana Purchase lands)


<http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/2691/tribunal.htm>

("David Seals, born in Denver in 1947, was a member of the American Indian movement, and is founder of the Bear Butte Council. He has worked as a reporter and a professional actor.") <http://www.penguin.ca/nf/Author/AuthorPage/0,,1000029297,00.html>

David Seals himself writes: "I only ran into David Hill a few times, in 1991, when the Lakota Sovereignty Committee was helping the Bear Butte Council declare independence from the US and Canada, according to the great 1851 Fort Laramie Treaty." <http://www.grahamdefense.org/20040110seals.htm>

Yah, the group he founded declared "independence from the US and Canada". You want a claim of political leadership?

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The works of fiction you have cited in this thread , by David Seals, are works of fiction, and don't really involve "public trust". [....]

Books sold as fiction [....]

Books sold as fiction [....]

Writing a book marketed as fiction [....]

being an author of fictional books [....]

Not everything he writes is presented as "fiction": but even on those books, "by a Native American author" is a statement presumed to be true, non-fictional, something readers can rely on when deciding whether to buy the books.

As that helps sell books (both his "fiction" and his "non-fiction"), it makes him money.

And if it's false... taking people's money under false pretenses is fraud.

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Or would you also go after authors like Tony Hillerman, who's books contain Navajo characters and a fictionalized Navajo culture?

Hillerman's books were never falsely flacked as "by Native American author Tony Hillerman".

You're getting hung up on whether the content of the books is fiction.

I'm talking about whether the author's own ethnicity (in the real world; not that of his narrative voice in the books) is a lie used to market those books... and, as above, leverage the author into greater influence.

Offline wolfhawaii

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Re: Sizzle Flambé says Hello
« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2009, 06:16:39 am »
I think the introduction and the Seals discussion should be separated into appropriate threads.

Offline earthw7

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Re: Sizzle Flambé says Hello
« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2009, 11:04:03 pm »
I think I was trying to say that but following on deaf ear :(
In Spirit