the new age

[RedRightHand]

qirin, the "New Age" movement is, above all, an incoherent conglomeration of myriad strands and philosophies. If you have found cohesion, I suspect it is your imposition of order upon particular and specific parts it rather than an inherent relationship among them.

Almost all the elements and practices you put forth as organically European can also be found in other cultures, and often predating European usage.

In many ways, you yourself prove the point: Your very eclecticism seems to be a point of honor for you, the individual expression of the search for meaning amongst various philosophic threads. In other words, whatever works.

The idea of traditional cultural matrix and communities which seek to protect themselves from theft and sacrilegious usage of their traditions seems to be beyond you. I suspect you think you should be the arbiter, the chooser of whether traditions should or shouldn't be protected from exploitation.

I'm reminded of the capitalist "Globalization" movement which also seeks to invade communities and force them to participate whether they want to or not. The inequality of power is similar to those who appropriate from traditional cultures.

You make a distinction between the bad "frauds" and you, a sincere seeker who professes respect for these cultures. But your words also reflect your denial of self-determination for these peoples. I can't read your mind but I also suspect you are baffled why anyone would deny you access to these cultural practices or condemn your sincerity. And that, in a nutshell, is the crux: it's not your decision.

As to why people here dwell on the "bad" and combating frauds rather than focusing on the positive, this is a regrettable "New Age" attitude as well. I've observed that many "New Agers" are very adverse to "negative" emotions like anger. Sometimes people must protect themselves. Sometimes people must fight to protect themselves. This is not a perspective that gets much play in the "New Age" communities. It's considered spiritually unevolved by "New Agers" in my experience.

Yet loving the people who oppress and steal from you isn't always the best answer. If there seems to be a disparaging tone here about "Nuage" practices, this is because our experience has shown that the Nuage has a voracious appetite for appropriation of other cultures despite your assertion of a fantastically pristine European core. And while the "plastic shamans" are obvious targets here, they are often only the commercial outcropping of attitudes embedded deep in the "New Age" communities.

So you stumble in here during your searches, all paternalistic in wanting to show us the deep errors of our efforts, all earnest in presenting us with the real New Age philosophy as you understand it. Unsurprisingly, you remain ignorant of the beam in your eye, the arrogance of your attitude and the smug sense of superiority radiating from your posts. As you try to help us understand how flawed we are here, you condescend to inform us that "...you are attacking the people closest to you and not the actual root of the problem, which is the global corporate state and the plastic shamans themselves.  in fact, you are attacking the very people who are most likely to actually listen to and help you."

And so blame is neatly turned around by you onto the participants in this forum: The problem is we don't make allies of the people who exploit these communities. This is always the message from oppressors and exploiters: "We know what's best for you. We can help you. Stop fighting and be our friends as we absorb and destroy you. We promise we'll respect you in the morning." Of course you don't see the "New Age" in general as an exploiter of Native cultures but such exploitation is a deep and intrinsic part of the "New Age movement."

So be a dear and run along.

[qirin]

Almost all the elements and practices you put forth as organically European can also be found in other cultures, and often predating European usage.

that doesn't make them not an intrinsic part of european traditions.

In many ways, you yourself prove the point: Your very eclecticism seems to be a point of honor for you, the individual expression of the search for meaning amongst various philosophic threads. In other words, whatever works.

no it is my scholarship that is a point of honor to me.  in practice I am not eclectic at all.

The idea of traditional cultural matrix and communities which seek to protect themselves from theft and sacrilegious usage of their traditions seems to be beyond you.

that idea is not at all beyond me, I appreciate it very deeply.  however, I think that if you look at the structure of the world around you you will see its something of a doomed project.

I suspect you think you should be the arbiter, the chooser of whether traditions should or shouldn't be protected from exploitation.

again, you have totally missed the mark.  I don't think I am the arbiter of anything, I am just voicing my observations.

I'm reminded of the capitalist "Globalization" movement which also seeks to invade communities and force them to participate whether they want to or not. The inequality of power is similar to those who appropriate from traditional cultures.

my feelings about globalization are the same as my feelings about cultural appropriation: I do not support it, but it has become so inexorably a part of our world that we have been forced to find ways to come to terms with it.

You make a distinction between the bad "frauds" and you, a sincere seeker who professes respect for these cultures.

only for the purpose of argument.

But your words also reflect your denial of self-determination for these peoples.

now that's really a stretch.

I can't read your mind

clearly

but I also suspect you are baffled why anyone would deny you access to these cultural practices or condemn your sincerity.

actually that doesn't baffle me at all.

And that, in a nutshell, is the crux: it's not your decision.

I am aware of that.  I am still, however, entitled to voice my opinion.

Sometimes people must protect themselves. Sometimes people must fight to protect themselves.

that is what I am doing.  I am defending the new age and other varieties of postmodern experience as an intrinsic part of my culture, which is in some sense also an oppressed culture, in that we were born the heirs of a huge legacy of hatred and villainy and are now expected to put up with being blamed and talked down to because of the actions of our ancestors and our flawed education.

Unsurprisingly, you remain ignorant of the beam in your eye, the arrogance of your attitude and the smug sense of superiority radiating from your posts.

no I am not ignorant of the beam in my eye, nor of my air of superiority, nor of the fact that I glaringly omitted any discussion of the white oppression of Native Americans from my original post.  the truth is, I read a bunch of stuff here and it bugged me and I figured I would go ahead and try and commit those thoughts to paper.  I am not expecting anyone to agree with me or change their mind, and I understand why the people on here feel the way they do, why they would be angry, why my attitude would piss them off and so on.

but that doesn't mean that I don't have the right to be irritated by what I have read on here, and to think that the presentation is somewhat biased and overzealous.

And so blame is neatly turned around by you onto the participants in this forum: The problem is we don't make allies of the people who exploit these communities.

I'm not blaming you or trying to turn anything around.  I am just pointing out that this kind of oppositional stance, like activist neo-marxism and fundamentalist christianity, just alienates you from everyone except those whom you deem to be members of your in group.

So be a dear and run along.

cute.  I'll wait for the moderators to decide on that.

[taraverti]

I'm not blaming you or trying to turn anything around.  I am just pointing out that this kind of oppositional stance, like activist neo-marxism and fundamentalist christianity, just alienates you from everyone exc ept those whom you deem to be members of your in group.

Oppositional to what? That's mighty white of you. Please. Can't you see the arrogance in your words?

There are folks here who are better with words than I am, but really, you are very eurocentric, those "poppets" you talk of DO have roots in African diasporic religions, the things you are claiming are European do also exist in other traditions. There is a strong African-American Folk magic presence, which is NOT new age, which you have dismissed in one sentence. Again, how mighty white of you. And now you say that the Indigenous people should just not be so oppositional. How dare people of color make you uncomfortable. I'm a little dumbfounded.

Why don't you go to your own people and tell them the error of their ways? Tell them to stop labeling things Native that aren't.  You clearly have acknowledged that you see what is happening. The answer is not for the injured parties to be nicer about it or share more. How about the people who are doing the offensive things stop? How about that as a solution?

Taraverti

[educatedindian]

...I run the risk of being ignored and accused of being a troll, because I think what I have to say is valid.  I say what I have to say out of a genuine desire for mutual understanding, not to provoke anger.

Let me begin by saying that I am not defending people like Carlos Castaneda, Alberto Villoldo, Maria Yraceburu et al. who misrepresent themselves as emissaries of cultures they have no connection to.  I do not support cultural imperialism, the selling of other people's cultures, charlatanry and the exploitation of people's naivety, depression and desire for meaning.

What I am is a "New Ager??? who finds a lot of things on this site and in these discussions extremely troubling.  I haven't read the entire contents of the board, and so some of what I say here may have been answered in other places....

I wouldn't call you a troll, but I do think most of us in here will ignore you, and we all definitely should, at least until you take time enough to actually read what we've been saying, which you admit you haven't done.

If you had done that instead of wasting our time, you'd have seen a few others have said things before very similar to what you're saying. In other words, they also came in here and very arrogantly presumed to lecture what they think NDNs should be like, and how NDNs should behave, say, think, and act. They also presumed they knew far more than anyone in here just what (dramatic music, please) THE TRUTH is.

If you find what we say and how we defend our traditions "troubling" but are not far more troubled by millions being  harmed by the lies of Castaneda, for example, or the many sexually abused and exploited by the likes of the Deer Tribe and the Nuwaubians...

...just about everyone would say there's something deeply wrong with you. Namely your concern for your own hurt feelings over imaginary insults we've never said vs failing to see the real world around you, and be concerned with real issues and real harm being done.

For example, your extended sidetrack has caused people in here to ignore ACTUAL news. Where did you get the idea one person's complaint belonged under "News"? That was very arrogant of you, and again shows you don't even bother to read before you begin to presume to lecture us.

Meanwhile, Wolfhawaii's post of a call to protest a very poor misrepresentation of the Haudenosaunee on the Discovery Channel was ignored.

And that's very typical of so many Nuagers, believing their little woes in their sheltered lives matter more than real harm and real issues.

Others may speak with you if they wish. I won't, unless you become abusive or deliberately insulting (as distinct from your UNintentional insults so far, brought on by your own cluelessness.)

For myself, I'd rather spend my time looking at cases of real fraud that have been brought to our attention.

[qirin]

...just about everyone would say there's something deeply wrong with you. Namely your concern for your own hurt feelings over imaginary insults we've never said vs failing to see the real world around you, and be concerned with real issues and real harm being done.

there are real insults strewn all throughout these boards, and also on the main newagefraud.org site, primarily in that you call "new age," an umbrella term that encapsulates a lot of modern spiritual practices which have brought a lot of good into a lot of people's lives, fraudulent and incoherent.

a few years back, a friend of mine saved another friend of his from a car-accident induced coma through repeated applications of reiki.  american reiki is clearly a form of cultural imperialism, but it still saved someone's life.  likewise "tribal" bellydance has been a very transformative practice for my girlfriend and for countless other women who find in it a liberating form of self-expression and connection with their bodies.

our lives and realities are deeply bound up with these appropriated practices and can't wash our hands of them as easily as you all would probably like.  the point of view on these boards is what is detached from reality, in that your use of a binary opposition of genuine versus fraudulent as the basis for attacks on various cultural practices fails to really take into account the complexity of modern culture.  the problem with the attitude that you are taking is that you don't present a workable alternative.

Where did you get the idea one person's complaint belonged under "News"? That was very arrogant of you

I didn't know exactly where to put it but the title of that forum said "new users start here."  also it says "welcome and news," not just "news."  anyway, it succeeding in getting people's attention.

And that's very typical of so many Nuagers, believing their little woes in their sheltered lives matter more than real harm and real issues.

this is sort of a non sequitur argument, since it implies that I intentionly distracted people from Wolfhawaii's post, but you do have a point.  however, I don't believe my little woes matter MORE than "real harm" and "real issues," I just think they do matter.

(as distinct from your UNintentional insults so far, brought on by your own cluelessness.)

as opposed to your very intentional one right there.

For myself, I'd rather spend my time looking at cases of real fraud that have been brought to our attention.

there's something deeply wrong with me? maybe there is, but the fact that "everyone on this board would agree" doesn't make it so.

I do care about the reality of what's going on.  I have been shocked as, over the years and bit by bit, I have learned about castaneda and the others.  I have tried to be a strong advocate against exploitation, for the right of indigenous people to their own cultural traditions, against exploitation from within the new age community, against colonialism, against whiteness as a whole.  not that that makes me deserve some kind of special credit but I do try to do what is right by other people, even if I have failed.  not that I am not still dealing with my own issues of whiteness on a daily basis.

but here I dared, for what is probably the only time in my life, to defend one aspect of my culture.  I understand your side of the story and sympathize with it.  I support the right of Native Americans to try to keep people from ripping off their culture.  I just think all the attacks and belittling of what is in essence the dominant religious tradition in the US is a little over the top.

naive and white?  fine.  but the fact is that no matter what you or I say, you guys are losing.  new age commercialism is coming out on top.  real native american traditions are being erased.  you can say "ultimately its not my choice," but it's not your choice either.  yeah it's arrogant of me to say this, but it's also the truth: if you want this project to succeed, you will have to change your tactics.

at least until you take time enough to actually read what we've been saying, which you admit you haven't done.

I admitted I hadn't read EVERYTHING.  am I supposed to read every post on this board before feeling offended by it?

[qirin]

Oppositional to what?

oppositional to mainstream culture.

That's mighty white of you. Please. Can't you see the arrogance in your words?

I think you just misunderstood what I was saying.

but really, you are very eurocentric

that was the point, I was trying to show how a lot of the elements of new age-ism are in fact european.  I could have written another essay abotu all the parts that are borrowed or stolen from other cultures but that wasn't the point.

those "poppets" you talk of DO have roots in African diasporic religions, the things you are claiming are European do also exist in other traditions.

that's true, sympathetic magic exists in every tradition.  the point is that it was independently a part of european traditions before they ever came into contact with other cultures.  and alchemy and hermetics are uniquely european, although they do descend from older rabbinical and greek traditions, but that's going back thousands of years.

And now you say that the Indigenous people should just not be so oppositional. How dare people of color make you uncomfortable. I'm a little dumbfounded.

the chinese, east indians, tibetans, japanese, africans, etc. have generally not responded to cultural appropriation in the ways you guys do.

Why don't you go to your own people and tell them the error of their ways? Tell them to stop labeling things Native that aren't.  You clearly have acknowledged that you see what is happening. The answer is not for the injured parties to be nicer about it or share more. How about the people who are doing the offensive things stop? How about that as a solution?

I do those things all the time in the real world.  I am just also saying that you guys should be a little more careful with your use of the word new age because it applies to other things besides just white appropriations of native american culture.  it is paradoxical for you to ask us to respect your culture while at the same time you criticize us in the ways that appear elsewhere in this thread.

I am not saying you should be nice or share.  I am just saying that self-documentation, i.e. publishing art books, histories and so on, would be a better way of preventing your culture from being erased than just yelling at people for playing indian.

[qirin]

well this has all been very fun but I think we've made ourselves clear.  I would like to thank you all for taking the time to respond to me, and to say that as I go on in life I will try to learn from the things I have read on this site and here today.

I hope that there was some truth in the things I said today, and that someone will read them and derivve benefit from them.  if not, then I apologize for wasting everyone's time.

I will come back at some point and see if anyone has anything they would like to add, but it doesn't seem like there's much left for me to say on the subject.

[educatedindian]

1. there are real insults strewn all throughout these boards, and also on the main newagefraud.org site, primarily in that you call "new age....

2. our lives and realities are deeply bound up with these appropriated practices and can't wash our hands of them as easily as you all would probably like.

3.

Where did you get the idea one person's complaint belonged under "News"? That was very arrogant of you

.....anyway, it succeeding in getting people's attention.

4.

(as distinct from your UNintentional insults so far, brought on by your own cluelessness.)

as opposed to your very intentional one right there.

5....the fact is that no matter what you or I say, you guys are losing.  new age commercialism is coming out on top.  real native american traditions are being erased.  you can say "ultimately its not my choice," but it's not your choice either.  yeah it's arrogant of me to say this, but it's also the truth: if you want this project to succeed, you will have to change your tactics.

6....am I supposed to read every post on this board before feeling offended by it?

1. If the phrase "new age" is insulting to you, get mad at other Nuagers. They invented it. We didn't. Again, quit wasting our time. Anything further on that non-issue is spam and will be deleted.

2. Yes you can. Walk away from the lies, admit you've done harm and done wrong, and do no more harm. Very simple. If cult survivors can do it, why can't you?

3. We have no time to waste on someone who just wants attention and doesn't care how they get it.

4. That's not an insult. It's pointing out the obvious.

5. That's not an easy thing to judge. But by most measures we are winning.

Nuage books still sell a lot, but far less than they used to. And it's because of Natives speaking out and pointing out the lies and abuse.

New frauds still come out all the time, but they generally make far less profit and have far few followers than the first ones did. Castaneda sold tens of millions of books and was extremely wealthy, while the new frauds sometimes have to self publish and make enough to get by doing the workshop circuit.

And as far as Native traditions dying, again you clearly have no clue about what you're talking about. The traditions are stronger than ever.

6. No, just enough to know what you're talking about.

What you said elsewhere is that you are in support of our central purpose in here, warning the public about frauds and abusers.

So how about doing something useful towards that end? Perhaps you could introduce yourself, tell us your own experience of being abused, or lied to by exploiters, etc. Name names if you can.

Of course we don't ask anyone to tell us anything they are uncomfortable saying, and esp not anything which could bring them harm, such as harassment by exploiters and their followers.

BTW, an intro would go under Intro, not here. Plus it's just simple politeness.

[qirin]

1. If the phrase "new age" is insulting to you, get mad at other Nuagers. They invented it. We didn't. Again, quit wasting our time. Anything further on that non-issue is spam and will be deleted.

well I guess I won't comment on that then

2. Yes you can. Walk away from the lies, admit you've done harm and done wrong, and do no more harm. Very simple. If cult survivors can do it, why can't you?

my point is that even if I did, it wouldnt change the nature of our whole culture.

3. We have no time to waste on someone who just wants attention and doesn't care how they get it.

that is an intentional misrepresentation of what I said.

4. That's not an insult. It's pointing out the obvious.

in a highly insulting way.

5. That's not an easy thing to judge. But by most measures we are winning.

Nuage books still sell a lot, but far less than they used to. And it's because of Natives speaking out and pointing out the lies and abuse.

yet the new age industry as whole, not the part that exploits Native Americans but the part the publishes stuff like the secret and what the bleep, is doing better than ever.

And as far as Native traditions dying, again you clearly have no clue about what you're talking about. The traditions are stronger than ever.

I didn't say they were dying.  you are again misrepresenting what I said.  I said that the best way to prevent native traditons from being eclipsed by commercial culture (as in the case of this objectionable discovery channel episode or for instance the medicine shield issue discussed extensively elsewhere on this site) would be self-documentation.

So how about doing something useful towards that end? Perhaps you could introduce yourself, tell us your own experience of being abused, or lied to by exploiters, etc. Name names if you can.

I don't think that's useful, although I did already name maria yraceburu.  and if you had made this suggestion at the beginning, before you and [Insult removed] deluged me with insults, I might have taken you up.

Plus it's just simple politeness.

something [Insult removed].

I tried to behave in a civil way.  [Insult removed]

thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.  they were edifying, and I will definitely try to understand and be respectful of these things in the future.  I realize the negative reactions I received were due to the cavalier nature of my original post, and so I dont expect appologies from anyone.  however, if I may be so bold, I think your reactions indicate [Insult removed].

now goodnight.  rejoice! this time I won't be coming back.

[LittleOldMan]

  Girin:  When I discovered your Epistle last night I could not get my mind wrapped around your thoughts.  Since everyone else has seen fit to answer you in ways that I can only aspire to.  It seems unrealistic to me that my comments would be beneficial to the conversation.  That being said I thought that I might as well as add a comment or three.  It is evident from the way that you present your thoughts that you have the benefit of some higher education and posses some skills in both research as well as the use of the language.  Here are a couple of concepts (ideas,facts) that may be of interest to you.  First this board is, or tries to be, both a clearing house as well as a place where a call to action can be put forth to warn others of those people who would violate the cultural sanctity of Native American  Culture/Spirituality.  Many of us have a foot planted in both the Native world as well as the dominant  European cultural model.  We therefore quite well understand the problems that the threats of unauthorized appropriation of Native American Culture/Spirituality can cause.  This is the reason that we are somewhat sensitive to any perceived threat ,criticism.  When one has been hit as much as we have sometimes the fist starts moving before the totality of thought engages.  You asked us to share knowledge this cannot be done in the way that you might want it to be.  Traditional Elders hand out knowledge only as fast as the receiving person can assimilate it in a proper manner.  I am sorry but this is another continent  We come at things usually from a whole different direction using some entirely different concepts and views of our place in relation the land and Spirit.  Succinctly said it is against our nature to share this knowledge in a nontraditional way.  We understand that some people are wandering and lost and they search for a place  where they can find some spiritual ease.  We also understand that these people are vulnerable to the unscrupulous charlatan.  We seek to prevent this happening if we can.  We also seek to protect the purity, if you will, of our culture.  Go to a powwow look, at all the Wannabe tribe members, maybe then you will understand our concerns and caution..   My comments are offered with respect to this board as well as yourself.  I am "LittleOldMan"       

[qirin]

well since he continued after I tried to kill the thread, I will answer him.

First this board is, or tries to be, both a clearing house as well as a place where a call to action can be put forth to warn others of those people who would violate the cultural sanctity of Native American  Culture/Spirituality.  Many of us have a foot planted in both the Native world as well as the dominant  European cultural model.  We therefore quite well understand the problems that the threats of unauthorized appropriation of Native American Culture/Spirituality can cause.

and I do applaud that.  I am very grateful to have read the things that I did.  I am glad that my suspicions about maria yraceburu were confirmed, and that I was saved the heartache of being involved with those people.

This is the reason that we are somewhat sensitive to any perceived threat ,criticism.  When one has been hit as much as we have sometimes the fist starts moving before the totality of thought engages.

believe it or not, I really do "get" that.  I mean, in part it is apparent from all the things they accused me of, all the different types of racism and the various characterizations that they made, how many time this has happened before.

but the fact is, this site maintains a high profile, and it contains a great deal of negative talk about new age people who are not directly involved in cultural appropriation.  various characterizations of the "new age" mindset and so on.  you can find plenty of them further up in this thread ("we've heard this all before" etc.).  maybe by new agers they specifically mean people who are involved in cultural appropriation, but it does not at all seem that way and I have not seen that distinction made.

and I used the word "new age" on purpose.  I didn't have to.  I don't happily identify with that word, and if I had come on here and used a different word, say european occultism, I may have gotten a very different reaction.  we'll never know.  but that was my point.  these people are so enraged by those two words that anything that comes after it has to be attacked and dismantled.

You asked us to share knowledge this cannot be done in the way that you might want it to be.  Traditional Elders hand out knowledge only as fast as the receiving person can assimilate it in a proper manner.  I am sorry but this is another continent  We come at things usually from a whole different direction using some entirely different concepts and views of our place in relation the land and Spirit.  Succinctly said it is against our nature to share this knowledge in a nontraditional way.

again, I think everyone took my statement the wrong way.  I was not saying that Native people should under any circumstance share medicine ways, as I guess you call them, or any aspect of your spiritual traditions.  I simply meant that devoting some energy to educating people about your languages and histories and artistic traditions in a very superficial way, just what things are what and not the why or the how, could go a long way.  I can tell fake tibetan stuff from real tibetan stuff a lot of the time because, even though I don't speak tibetan, I can recognize words that are real tibetan and words that aren't.

maybe that's too much to ask.  it's just an idea.  I guess I said everything in the wrong ways, but I am not sure that excuses the way they behaved towards me.  of course I sort of expected that, [Insults removed] but I thought maybe someone else would want to talk.

in any case, I am glad they are keeping this here [Insults removed} is preserved for visitors to stumble upon.

Go to a powwow look, at all the Wannabe tribe members, maybe then you will understand our concerns and caution

I went to one awhile back at mission san luis rey, which is down the street from my house.  I didn't see any wannabes, but maybe I just dont know how to look.

this site maintains a fairly high profile, and there is a lot of bad mouthing of various groups of people on here.  deserved or otherwise, you are going to provoke a reaction.  if people keep coming here and saying the same things, maybe there's a reason.  whether they are right or wrong, they keep coming here because you are consistently offending people.

you guys talk about the need to defend your culture, and your willingness to fight to do so.  so your jaws shouldn't drop when other people follow suit.  the plastic shamans will keep coming, and people like me, who hope to find some kind of middle ground, will keep coming too.  deal with it.

one of the "fraud" "shamans" who was in fact NDN, a friend of yraceburu's who taught a massage class I took, said over and over to us "you dishonor no one by honoring yourself."

that's all I tried to do here, honor myself and my experience.  I am sorry that [Insult removed]
god be with you

[taraverti]

again, I think everyone took my statement the wrong way.  I was not saying that Native people should under any circumstance share medicine ways, as I guess you call them, or any aspect of your spiritual traditions.  I simply meant that devoting some energy to educating people about your languages and histories and artistic traditions in a very superficial way, just what things are what and not the why or the how, could go a long way.  I can tell fake tibetan stuff from real tibetan stuff a lot of the time because, even though I don't speak tibetan, I can recognize words that are real tibetan and words that aren't.

god be with you

Your assumption that this is not happening is erroneous. AND there you go again, suggesting to Indians how they should behave.  They really do know what they are doing and don't need to be told by you, which you would know if you educated yourself. Just because YOU are not aware of the education that is going on, does not mean it does not exist. In fact there's this big building in Washington DC ..... and lots of powwows open to the public. Hopefully I have said that in a way you can hear and not take offense at.

By the way, I'm not Indian.

I'm wondering if this metaphore approximates what you are saying:

You are suggesting we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. To which I reply "Get that precious child out of that stinky rotten filty bathwater! It's stinking so bad that the neighbors are going to come over and dump it!"

I get that there are things of value in the "new age" movement, along with the awful stuff.  However, that's not the concern of this forum.  I again suggest your energy is better spent in cleaning up the mess in your own house than in suggesting to Indians what they should do.

God be with you too.

Taraverti

[qirin]

AND there you go again, suggesting to Indians how they should behave. 

it said right at the beginning of that paragraph that I was reiterating a point I had made previously, so it's not really AGAIN.  I dared one time to make one statement.  well maybe two, since I also suggested they not use the word new ager as loosely as they do.

They really do know what they are doing and don't need to be told by you, which you would know if you educated yourself. Just because YOU are not aware of the education that is going on, does not mean it does not exist. In fact there's this big building in Washington DC ..... and lots of powwows open to the public. Hopefully I have said that in a way you can hear and not take offense at.

that sounds kind of funny, implying that I am easily offended, since you have taken offense to pretty much everything I have said.

By the way, I'm not Indian.

I never assumed that anyone was, other than those who identified as such.

You are suggesting we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. To which I reply "Get that precious child out of that stinky rotten filty bathwater! It's stinking so bad that the neighbors are going to come over and dump it!"

look, you said you think there's this whole new age aversion to negativity and that's why I am saying they should be nice and share.  that's not what I am saying.  all I was saying is that a lot of times taking an offensive stance can hurt your own cause, and sometimes you can out compete people just by being more proactive.  I realize that I don't know everything there is to know about indians educating people and maybe it was wrong of me to say it, but it was actually not my main point.

I get that there are things of value in the "new age" movement, along with the awful stuff.  However, that's not the concern of this forum.

that wasn't really my point either.  my point was that the abusive language that a lot of people on this board use to talk about white spiritual seekers, a.k.a. "new agers," is hypocritical and in poor taste.

case in point:

today I was reading an article in Time magazine about the election, and there was a part where the writer said (and I paraphrase):

"It's time for the Republican party to sit in a circle, light some incense, hold hands and figure out what their supporters really believe in."

the new age is now an integral part of American culture, to the point that a writer can make a casual remark like that and no one will even bat an eye.  the rate of cultural "appropriation" has accelerated astronomically as a consequence of technology, not just because of white people.  the world is changing, and the fact is that this board is part of the global internet house.

so if you want to go for metaphors, how's this.  it's a reflection of the kind of neighborhood I live in:

if you're gonna talk trash about your neighbors, you better do it where they can't hear or you are gonna get a knock on your door.

[taraverti]

qirin, I did not say half of the things you just attributed to me. You seem to have lumped everyone here into a generic "you".

[qirin]

you're right, one of the things I said you said (new age aversion to negativity) was actually RedRightHand.  I apologize.