Author Topic: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)  (Read 89428 times)

Offline AlaskaGrl

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2007, 04:45:04 pm »
Ya did good Barnaby. 

Some people can't take quiet line by line debate or conversation like this (we all know this) they prefer to label such discussion as "attacks"  and then sometimes leave with the door swinging after having checked you out (the stalking referance).  The part about the spell really cracked me up....   You know I totally agree with you, I have certainly done my share of rants.  Not meaning to slight these things that they don't work or exist... heh they do and are real but generally not employed by the common garden variety Wannabe whatever who gets it from a book..  Good thing too.  I have found quite a few Pagans don't believe they have a personal power for such things or that they can tap into it -good thing again.  One of the shortfalls, too many believe they can be a Witch from a book. 

I have been here forever in my state people know me and either like me or hate me, my views on mix and match spirituality and frauds and most know I am a Witch or have figured it out by now.  It's not been easy, not following other lemmings, on occasion i've been embroiled in my share of knock down verbal in the face and online drag outs and the not forgotten Witch wars/Spiritual wars that can and have erupted around and on other Witches I know who along with me in tow, took very unpopular views regarding newage frauds which is how I wound up here way back when, when this was in a Yahoo Group.  -Pagans actually hired some Voodoo people to get even through voodoo but it didn't work... backfired, it all backfired not because the Voodoo people were not necesarilly good or diligent...  Pagans hiring someone else to do work ... What does that say about "ability" we were left wondering.... scary we are reduced to this.  This went on for several *years* people, this, "i'll get you mentality" this "drop dead" mentality because you won't follow suite or you question too much of the "leaders" It's another illustration to what some will go through to remove people from the scene.   Needless to say not all Witches practise the ridiculous "harm none" If you smack some of us, you will be smacked back. 

What do I want to say.... I guess I want to say to the dis-believing Pagans and others that have not had crap happen to them that not all of these types of people the like minded "apearing" people you might want to hang out with around a fire or go drumming with as they goddess worship or maybe jump in a circle with to do whatever (pls don't circle with just anyone you don't know) are all so simple appearing.. Some are actually predators out to abuse others or cause other forms of havoc within their sometimes closed communities that they sometimes create for the control of said community.  They want to get their hooks into it for whatever reason, sometimes political sometimes just for the control aspect of the other lemmings.. and sometimes into you.  Set themselves up as the high and mighty poobah not to be  questioned...   

Havoc if you question them not limited to: Threatening bodily harm, legal threats or other unseen means to try to destroy you.  Believe me I say this Candle only because I have experienced and seen it happen to others and you can read about similar tactics happening to others here at this site regarding Newagefrauds.  The anonymous letters.. the inquiries on this person and that person are they real or not?  ALL VALID QUESTIONS..  It's why this site exists to warn and educate.  If it was a non issue do you really think we'd be here?  noooo we'd all be doing something else.    YOU said you are a Pagan 4Candles, maybe you don't want to listen to Indians about this issue? I mean what do they know you might be wondering.. about Pagan New Age issues  LOL Maybe you want to stick your head in the sand?  Be unknowing and unseeing?  Is that a smart way to be these days? is that intelligent to do? Take it from an opionated Witch then.   Be sure you know who you are with and their intentions, question everything don't be ignorant.  Ignorance may be bliss but it can also be painful.  Be a smart person and protect yourself.  I don't mean to make it sound like everyone is out to get you  nooo, most people are very nice but it only takes ONE to ruin your day or your life or someone elses.  Educate others to the possibility of it and what to do if it happens like reporting it to authorities - often not done because parties involved are too embarased to report it.  At least there are Pagan counselors they can talk to now...   


On a addendum rant here...Please check out the links 
Just because you Candle or "The Pagan Federation" (is that like Starfleet?)  you claim may not acknowledge abuse within the Pagan community here or where you are the UK does not mean it does not exist period end of sentance.  I find that outlook full of denial and rather fluffy.  I did visit the Pagan Federation page... it did not sound interesting to me, not something I would belong too but then I am hard to impress over these things I guess I just question so much LOL.  Do you work for them? do you write for them?  I am surprised they don't have anything on abuse or the possibility of it on their site.  So it really does not exist then ? 

Anyone can do a google and locate instances of abuse within the Pagan community.  Its not hidden,
there are articles discussing it and attempting to address it and pose suggestions as to what to do when and if it happens including educating members of Covens and other groups.  Here, I posted a few links:

  http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usca&c=words&id=9220
"" think many times abuse within our community is swept under the rug because there is no place where reports of abuse can be given. As a result many covens and groups disband within two years of working together and many people are pulled into abusive or unhealthy coven or leadership situations. """

http://fullcirclenews.blogspot.com/2005_03_02_fullcirclenews_archive.html
"""The Pagan community needs a wake-up call in this regard. The sexual freedom that we espouse does not include irresponsible behavior in the age of Aids, or the abuse of partners. In particular, it does not support the abuse of children. Ever. """""""

Dealing with abuse in Covens
http://healing.about.com/od/selfpower/a/covenabuse.htm


You Candle, are sticking your head in the sand.  That is your choice for the denial.


Ok a disclaimer: I do not believe all Pagans/Wiccans are bad or don't know what they are doing or are this or that.  I am eternally optimistic that only a few bad apples exist to make all the others look like bad.   Gosh I feel so warm and fuzzy right now...  is that a good thing or a bad thing  ?   I'm sure though no matter what I say Candle will only attack me as Barnaby for "bashing Pagans" and others when hey, I'm a Witch these are my experiences and views on a touchy complicated matter.  I just don't approve of abuse or manipulation by poobahs. 


   
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 04:56:59 pm by Spiral Walk »

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2007, 11:11:23 pm »
I'm not too impressed by that law. It didn't stop the airing of a racist anti Native commercial in Britain when we filed complaints against it.

4Candles is confused about this too. I think s/he means the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 which is not yet in force as far as I know, and which will specifically protect freedom of expression when it is:

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29J   Protection of freedom of expression

Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system.

Looks like s/he'll have to settle for casting a spell. I'll let you know if my typing finger falls off or turns into a carrot or something.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 12:26:19 am by Barnaby_McEwan »

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2007, 11:53:43 pm »
Ya did good Barnaby.

Thanks, and thanks also for the links you posted: it's heartening to see this problem being addressed by pagans. The more they do it, the less people like us have to, and the more their public image improves. The last one is particularly good.

[later edit] A couple more articles by one of the authors Lindaa found. Pity about the pretentious use of the word 'tribe', but then you can't have everything (emphases mine).

It's a Mystery: Dysfunctional Behaviour and the Pagan Scene.

Part One
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A large number of Pagans who were once active in our community have recently gone back underground. They tell us that they have stopped going to events or have left established groups because they are tired of the drama and trauma they find there.

Part Two
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They come to us with a hole in their soul because they are lacking the unconditional love, guidance, and stability they deserved but never got as children, and we give them Witch Wars and yet more dysfunction. Very often they will try to fill this hole with alcohol, drugs, unhappy sexual encounters, food, and whatever else comes to hand, and we offer them no understanding of what the hole really is or how to heal it. They come to us seeking acceptance and a safe place to practice their path, and we allow predators and abusers into their circles. Some day, we will answer for this.


Lindaa:
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Be sure you know who you are with and their intentions, question everything don't be ignorant.  Ignorance may be bliss but it can also be painful.  Be a smart person and protect yourself.  I don't mean to make it sound like everyone is out to get you  nooo, most people are very nice but it only takes ONE to ruin your day or your life or someone elses.

Or even kill you. I'll just preface this by saying I'm not trying to scare people away from paganism. These sad events are of course extremely atypical of neo-pagan behaviour: the point is that pagans are no less likely to destroy people than non-pagans.

In 2004 the body of a Cornish pagan, Peter Solheim, was found by fishermen. He had been drugged and tortured before being thrown dead, or almost dead, into the sea. By all accounts he was a deeply sordid character who had made large amounts of money dealing in collectable firearms and pornography, as well as making many enemies in the Cornish pagan community. He was obsessed with sex and power - boasting of his sexual charisma and threatening to magically harm people who annoyed him. Other pagans eventually tired of him, banning him from some social meetings ('moots').

His lover of nine years, Margaret James, is now serving twenty years for conspiracy to murder. James was just as involved in paganism as Solheim but no one in the scene suspected she was capable of such a horrific crime: they felt sorry for her, believing Solheim was the problem. The motives were jealously and greed: her accomplices remain at large.

Court told of 'sex and pills'

Pagan Peter liked talking about sex

Plot to mutilate and murder pagan lover

Pagan drowned in lover's murder plot

Occult secrets of dead councillor

Grandmother guilty of murder plot

PS: I gather a documentary has been made about this crime and is to be shown on Channel 4 in Britain this year.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 11:18:41 pm by Barnaby_McEwan »

Offline AlaskaGrl

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2007, 03:50:24 am »
Looks like s/he'll have to settle for casting a spell. I'll let you know if my typing finger falls off or turns into a carrot or something.

ROFL  reminds me of the following Monty Python lyrics regarding carrots
http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/carrotju.htm

Just thought i'd throw that in sideways... kinda fits...  ;D


Lindaa

Leonard

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2008, 05:57:21 pm »
Thank you for 'jogging' my memory and helping me clear and resolve some items from my past here also.

I moved from Oklahoma to New Hampshire in 1995 as a 'seeker' and was  member of the 'coven' of 'Lady Sabrina - Our Lady of Enchantment' for the year 1995 and she was located in Nashua, New Hampshire. The reason for to move across the country is that I took 'mail order' lessons in 'witchcraft' while living in Guthrie, Oklahoma in 1994 and decided to go to this 'source' in person to research it further because I felt that 'mail order' would not do and I needed to be there 'in person' and see things with my 'own eyes'.

My 'gut feeling' is that this web-site here and your organization, NAFPS, should stay as neutral as possible and maybe not even help the 'wicca/pagan' establish a 'fraud site' because I observed a lot of 'bickering' and 'in-fighting' and think a 'fraud' site they might construct would be more a weapon than an instrument of 'truth' and 'orthodoxy'.

I think the 'wicca/pagan' is more some sort of 'western culture' social movement or phenomena and a lot of people are struggling to establish position and dominance and it could be dangerous to find yourself in the middle of their fighting, even if innocent.

Leonard.

Offline TelGega

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2008, 07:44:43 pm »
I support the idea of having any pagan/wicca, hindu, Christain version of the NAFPS. The fact is, there are people who get taken advantage of and have their lives destroied by the Cult like factions.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2008, 10:10:30 pm »
Well, as many problems as I have with the Neopagan communities (and believe me, after dealing with them on and off since the early eighties, I've seen all kinds of awful things) the fact is that there are groups of Pagans or Neopagans who are more intelligent, politically aware and ethical than others. Among those with experience, maturity and intelligence, people like 'Lady Sabrina', with her mail-order courses and odd beliefs, are not respected.

Among the more traditional, ethnic Pagans, heck, even among the more "traditional" Wiccans, there is the shared belief/principle that you need to learn in person, not through mail order or the Internet. And while some ethnic communities, such as the urban Afro-Diasporic traditions, do have a traditional way that money/recompense is handled in their communities, the traditions that came out of England (for example) have prohibitions on accepting money for teaching.

With the Internet and all the crappy, mass-market books out there, a lot of the traditional structures have broken down, and there are more frauds now, as well as a larger pool of seekers for them to prey on. I think every spiritual community needs to be aware that there are predators out there, and stand firm against them.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 01:25:40 am by Yells At Pretendians »

Laurel

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2008, 09:27:08 pm »
Well said. 

Well, as many problems as I have with the Neopagan communities (and believe me, after dealing with them on and off since the early eighties, I've seen all kinds of awful things) the fact is that there are groups of Pagans or Neopagans who are more intelligent, politically aware and ethical than others. Among those with experience, maturity and intelligence, people like 'Lady Sabrina', with her mail-order courses and odd beliefs, are not respected.

Among the more traditional, ethnic Pagans, heck, even among the more "traditional" Wiccans, there is the shared belief/principle that you need to learn in person, not through mail order or the Internet. And while some ethnic communities, such as the urban Afro-Diasporic traditions, do have a traditional way that money/recompense is handled in their communities, the traditions that came out of England (for example) have prohibitions on accepting money for teaching.

With the Internet and all the crappy, mass-market books out there, a lot of the traditional structures have broken down, and there are more frauds now, as well as a larger pool of seekers for them to prey on. I think every spiritual community needs to be aware that there are predators out there, and stand firm against them.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 07:33:31 pm by Yells At Pretendians »

Offline Ganieda

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2008, 08:33:53 am »
Good, come on over...

Pagans Against Sexual, Emotional & Financial Abuse

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PagansAgainstSexualEmotionalFinancialAbuse/

Mr. McEwan, thank you for the info and links on Peter Solheim.  This will be posted on the site as soon as I get them somewhat organized.  May I use the words you posted from...  "In 2004"...[snip] to "at large.", as an introduction to the topic? 

*May the Sun warm your Heart, The Moon light your Path and Sacred Mother Earth embrace and protect you always.*

Offline Ganieda

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2008, 09:07:56 am »
Ah, Mr. McEwan....

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This is common knowledge. Due to the sexual predilections of its inventor, Gerald Gardner, many "Traditional" Wiccan ceremonies involve ritual nudity, blindfolding, binding, flagellation and sexual intercourse, do they not?
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sexual predators abound

Yanno, you just can't paint all Pagans with the same brush. 

Lots of "words" and "meanings" being thrown around on this thread.  Most of them wrong.  Wicca did NOT pre-date New-Age as that is used to describe the Age of Aquarius which we have (or are still moving) into.  The last age was that of Pisces, hence the symbolic fish used by Christians... and you can go back in history and find all the "ages" connected in some way or another with the signs.  Now, if you mean (the somewhat disrespectful) tern "Nuage", then you are probably correct. 

However, New-Age does not mean Nuage does not mean Pagan does not mean Wicca.  You cannot use the terms Nuage/Pagan/Wicca etc all in the same breath.  No more than you can generalize "all Indians".  It's not so.  I am Pagan.  This simply means that I do not subscribe to any beliefs "of the book", for instance "The Christian Bible", "The Muslim Qur'an" etc.  Wicca comes under the umbrella term Pagan although it often does have some form of liturgy.  Many also place Buddhism in this category. 

And then there are the smaller, lesser known groups of Asatru, Goth, etc etc.  Some may fall under your brush, but not all.

And just FYI... I personally think that Gerald Gardiner was a certifiable nutcase.
*May the Sun warm your Heart, The Moon light your Path and Sacred Mother Earth embrace and protect you always.*

Leonard

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2008, 06:06:46 pm »
I am curious to learn more. Is this accurate information about the category 'Pagan' ?

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

Leonard.

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2008, 07:01:05 pm »
Mr. McEwan, thank you for the info and links on Peter Solheim.  This will be posted on the site as soon as I get them somewhat organized.  May I use the words you posted from...  "In 2004"...[snip] to "at large.", as an introduction to the topic?

No, but if you write your own summary you'll have the pleasure of knowing it's your own work.

Ah, Mr. McEwan....Yanno, you just can't paint all Pagans with the same brush...

You cannot use the terms Nuage/Pagan/Wicca etc all in the same breath.  No more than you can generalize "all Indians".  It's not so.  I am Pagan.  This simply means that I do not subscribe to any beliefs "of the book", for instance "The Christian Bible", "The Muslim Qur'an" etc.

You seem to be implying that all atheists are pagans. I'm sorry but the rest of those two paragraphs don't make much sense to me either. Can you point out more specifically what I'm wrong about in this thread?


Is this accurate information about the category 'Pagan' ?

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

Without even looking I'd say no. I think wikipedia is useless for learning about any even mildly controversial subject. If you want articles on mathematics or the physical sciences you'll probably be alright but otherwise forget it. Knowledgeable contributors making an effort to present neutral views seem to be vastly outnumbered by teenagers and people with an axe to grind on a particular topic.

Take a look at this article, and the rest of that site, to learn more about wikipedia's many problems.

Leonard

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2008, 07:43:45 pm »
I think you are probably right, particularly in the area of 'controversial' topics. The difficulty that I am having is finding reputable 'primary sources' against which to research the claims made by the proponents of 'neo-paganism' as I shall refer to this category (for lack of a better term).

As near as I can tell: " Neopaganism covers a wide range of belief systems which have emerged in the past 50 years, primarily in the UK, Europe, and the United States. This includes the better known Wicca, which is a synthesis of traditions from the British Isles, as well as many less visible groups which draw inspiration from other parts of the world. Based on folk-lore, traditional spiritual practices, anthropology, and a synthesis of esoteric systems, Neopaganism does not have any sacred texts of the same vintage as other religions, although unverifiable claims have been made in a couple of cases (e.g. Aradia, and The Gardnerian Book of Shadows). "

and:

" Although little is actually known about the Druids, that didn't stop 18th and 19th century intellectuals from building a romantic mythology around them. This was closely associated with the rebirth of Celtic nationalism, as well as the Romantic and Gothic movements. This body of fact and speculation later became a central source of modern Wicca and Neo-Pagan belief and practice. "

and:

" The New Thought movement, which originated in the late 19th and early 20th century, has at its core a belief that a higher power pervades all existence, and that individuals can create their own reality via affirmations, meditation and prayer. Early New Thought groups emerged from a Christian Science background, and many New Thought writers refer back to the Bible as their foundation text. New Thought resembles in some respects New Age philosophy, although some New Thought groups dismiss a connection. "

source = http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/index.htm

Leonard.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 11:50:35 pm by Leonard »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2008, 10:24:18 pm »
Lots of "words" and "meanings" being thrown around on this thread. 

Well, it's a verbal medium. That's what we have to work with here. ;-)

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New-Age does not mean Nuage...

For the most part, I have to disagree with you here. I think in common parlance, when people use the term "New Age" (or "Nuage" or "Newage (rhymes with sewage)"), they are not thinking solely in terms of pop-culture astrological "eras" (which only some people even find credible astrologically speaking), but using it as a descriptor of the modern, highly eclectic, capitalist, personal "spirituality" that is an outgrowth of Christian Science, Spiritualism and misunderstood Eastern philosophies, but has picked up bits and pieces of just about any and every belief system along the way.

The Newage system/attitude is inherently consumerist and racist at its core, and I have yet to meet anyone involved in it that hasn't been tainted by those values to one extent or another (though some people manage to leave and regain their sanity). I say this as someone who explored the Rebirthing cults and similar groups in the 1980s, and since the '70s have watched th Newage plagues creep further and further into both the mainstream as well as corrupting and damaging other, more traditional communities.

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...does not mean Pagan does not mean Wicca.

The post-Internet Neopagan milieu has been heavily influenced by Newage trends and assumptions. And aspects of Paganism and Wicca have been incorporated into many Newage groups and scams (as we all know they also attempt to rip off and incorporate First Nations ones).

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You cannot use the terms Nuage/Pagan/Wicca etc all in the same breath. 

No, these words don't actually mean the same thing to those of us who've been around for a long time and know their origins. However, as some people have more recently muddied the boundaries extensively, and have sometimes used them interchangeably, I do think its understandable when someone assumes otherwise. There are certainly frauds out there making it seem that it's all the same thing. For some people, it is.

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I am Pagan.

If it's not too personal a question, may I ask which culture/community/tradition?

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This simply means that I do not subscribe to any beliefs "of the book", for instance "The Christian Bible", "The Muslim Qur'an" etc.

Um, well, we have two definitions at work here. Small "p" "pagan" means "non-Abhramic", and also incorporates all "non-religious persons". But in modern usage, capital "P" "Pagan" or "Neopagan" is also used to refer to those who follow some sort of, usually European, Pre-Christian tradition (or, as in the case of some Wiccans, those who *believe* their tradition is Pre-Christian, whether or not it actually is). (See Adler for more on the terminolgy issues. Hutton may cover it as well, iirc.)

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Wicca comes under the umbrella term Pagan although it often does have some form of liturgy.  Many also place Buddhism in this category. 

Wicca is considered a form of Neopaganism, but your point about liturgy confuses me. Ethnic Pagan traditions have liturgy. Wicca has liturgy. Properly, I think only BritTrad Wicca, which is very heavy on liturgy, should even be considered Wicca, as the Neo-Wiccan traditions have departed from it heavily. (Not expressing a preference here, just historical fact. I'm not a Wiccan, and consider all forms of Wicca eclectic and mostly made-up, however I think the traditions who coined the term should have the right to define it.) If by the lack of liturgy you're referring to eclectic Neopagans who make it up as they go along but call themselves Wiccans (or people who got the word from Buffy the Vampire Slayer), but have never trained in a traditional, lineaged group, I don't think they should really be called Wiccans. But I don't really care what those folks are called *shrugs*

What really confuses me is your calling Buddhism "Pagan". Um, no. There are eclectic Neopagans who dabble in Buddhism, and call themselves "Buddheo-Pagans", but that doesn't make Buddhism itself Pagan or Neopagan. And calling Buddhism (small "p") "pagan" is an insult, imho.

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And then there are the smaller, lesser known groups of Asatru, Goth, etc etc. 

??satrú is a Germanic/Norse stream of Polytheistic Reconstructionism. With the Eddas, a good deal of surviving folklore, and at least one priest of the old traditions surviving in Iceland into my lifetime, they've had a lot to build on. While there has been the serious problem of racists being attracted to it, as well as some who don't consider themselves racist still using source materials written by racists, for those who actually adhere to its better principles, it is an ethnic tradition with about as much validity and heft to it as you'll find among white folks. However, "Goth" is a musical/fashion style affected by some of the younger Neopagans, not an historical magical tradition. (Unless you're speaking about some spiritual traditions of the real, historical Goths... which afaik have nothing to do with the sort of "spooky Neo-Wicca" that some young people are calling "Gothic".)

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And just FYI... I personally think that Gerald Gardiner was a certifiable nutcase.

I don't agree that Gardner was "certifiable". Like many men of his time and background, he had some ugly sexual issues that found their way into his work. His particular neuroses have never appealed to me, and I find many of them gross, laughable, or even psychologically harmful.  His work has even sowed the seeds for physical and sexual harm, as his interest in bondage and whipping, even if described in his writings as not being done to injure people, have been used by some as an excuse to tie women up and rape and beat them (and then tell them to shut up about it because it's a secret religious ritual).  He has a lot to answer for.

I hate that Gardner insisted that his sexual problems and other lies were somehow a part of Celtic culture or religion. Gardner didn't know shit about the Celts, he was a Brit. I will never support the fact that he lied, and tried to tell people that his eclectic mishmash, which also ripped off his ideas of First Nations practices, was Celtic. I'm still dealing every day with people that bought that line.

So, no, I personally have no respect for Gardner, but I do think that anyone who's using Wiccan ideas or structures as part of their practice (as are most Neopagans) does owe him honest treatment by being aware of what parts of their practice were created by him. What decisions they make from there on in are on their heads, but I don't think they can both criticize his obvious, serious problems while also using what he wrote.

Barnaby wrote:
Quote
Due to the sexual predilections of its inventor, Gerald Gardner, many "Traditional" Wiccan ceremonies involve ritual nudity, blindfolding, binding, flagellation and sexual intercourse, do they not?

I am not a Gardnerian or Alexandrian initiate, but as far as I know from acquaintance who are, yes, the rituals regularly involve nudity. Most of it sounds pretty tame and non-sexual, if at times silly, and the few rituals I've attended with BritTrad people did not involve any sexual activity, coercion or manipulation. However, "scourging", blindfolding, binding and sometimes intercourse are part of some of the initiation rituals of BritTrad covens. It's in their official materials. The rituals are supposed to be secret, but people do talk. 

Whether the sexual stuff is kept as just symbolism or actually engaged in varies among groups. Most I've heard of just keep it symbolic. While I know of covens that have never done anything untoward, I also know of situations where women were raped and battered, and the "tradition" used as the excuse. In those cases I was involved in trying to get the abusers banished from Neopagan gatherings. Sometimes we succeeded, but in other cases some prominent Neopagan event organizers refused to believe the rape survivors and defended the abusers.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2008, 02:54:26 am »
Good, come on over...

Pagans Against Sexual, Emotional & Financial Abuse

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PagansAgainstSexualEmotionalFinancialAbuse/

Ganieda, I followed the link on your profile at the above link to your Yahoo360 page. Is this your blog? http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=784

and this?
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=136
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Warrior, Shaman and Teacher I am.
© *Ganieda* 2004

Which is also reproduced here: http://www.wordswordswords.4t.com/thiswoman.html with this addenda:
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Ganieda currently manages and writes for several e-groups relating to the topic of Shamanism.

And I'll add: http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=537
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 05:51:59 pm by Defend the Sacred »