Cross cultural CATCH-22

[Moma_porcupine]

AH
I don't support ayahuasca tourism or ceremonial tourism, and if you read the information in that link I posted it should help you understand why, but it also sounds like the Amazon Elders feel this is something that can be shared, sometimes under some circumstances, but only if the people their culture recognizes as knowledgable are allowed to protect and manage how this is used.

I didn't feel you were asking what you asked from a trivial or disrespectful place, just that some of the unconscious assumptions behind your questions are the attitudes that created the emptyness you feel in your culture in the first place. I tend to believe that if these false assumptions are discredited, with a bit of effort in your own community, everything else would probably start to fall into place. 

AH

The part of getting rid of individual self-importance is the most difficult in our society. It is competitive, materialistic and the whole setting is of perpetual grasping for more more more and always progress progress and new new...
I don't feel at home in this. I don't think like this. But I still separate myself from the society and see myself as an individual - maybe even more because of all that.

I think that is something that happens to many people. Maybe instead of pulling away it would be better to try and change things from within your own community. That way the people who come after you will have more to feel connected with, and will be more able to be proud and feel norished by what the people before them left behind ? A problem that took generations to create probably is going to take generations to fix, but not doing anything about that, and wanting to take refuge in a trivialized version of another culture is probably not going to solve the problem . Maybe part of getting over self importance is being willing to work for something that you may not benefit from in your own life time?

Again this is just my own thoughts and opinions and I am also just somebody wondering what the answers are. I see a lot of people hurting and I like to think solutions are possible on all sides.

Take care.

[Leonard]

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Leonard.

[Leonard]

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Leonard.

[A.H.]

Do you like to hate so much Leonard?

Enjoy yourself.


Thank you everybody for constructive answers you gave... Moma_porcupine - great respect to you.

best

[Leonard]

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Leonard.

[Defend the Sacred]

I don't want you no harm really. Not you, not anybody. What you do with all this corespondence is now really strange to me. So much misunderstanding...

Hi A.H.

I've been hesitant to respond to you, as you've said much that has made me angry. Also, at this point others (Notably Moma and Earth) have said what needs to be said, and probably better than I could have.

I would only add that if you really want to understand where people are coming from, you need to first listen respectfully, then listen some more. 

And you need to be patient. You also need to stop being so defensive and accept that you may have some things wrong. It's not just you, really, pretty much everyone from outside indigenous cultures has been given false information.  Some of what people honestly have to say in response to the issues you raise may not be easy for you to hear. That is ok. You won't die from hearing things that clash with what you've been led to believe by outsiders. It may hurt, but it won't kill you.

You have a lot of misconceptions about Indigenous peoples, cultures and practices. I'm not saying that to be mean, just observing what's been going on. Read the main website pages here: http://www.newagefraud.org/ . Read a lot of other threads. This thread in particular has some advice: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1048.msg8916 . Be quiet for a while and attempt to understand. Don't expect everyone here to spend time educating you (though some have been very kind to do so), and don't expect that people are interested in arguing/debating with you.

This site, this group, is for fighting cultural appropriation, not for making white people feel better about themselves.

[Leonard]

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Leonard.

[Leonard]

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Leonard.

[Moma_porcupine]

Leonard, maybe I'm misunderstanding something but there is something I need to say;

While I think it's always OK to say what is true the best we can, my own belief is if we want people to be able to hear what is being said, it is important to do this in as kind and respectful way as possible. For Native people or others who have been adversely affected by exploiters, part of this can be letting an exploiter know how they affected you, and that isn't always nice or soft. But making constant short sarcastic and inflamatory comments, that aren't clearly related to any bad personal experience you may have had with an exploiter of Native culture, makes me a bit uncomfortable .

I tend to think this sort of communication does not help build understanding or cooperation. Especially if the person appears to be listening or trying to and is trying to engage in a respectful dialog . 

Just my opinion

[earthw7]

Leonard, maybe I'm misunderstanding something but there is something I need to say;

While I think it's always OK to say what is true the best we can, my own belief is if we want people to be able to hear what is being said, it is important to do this in as kind and respectful way as possible. For Native people or others who have been adversely affected by exploiters, part of this can be letting an exploiter know how they affected you, and that isn't always nice or soft. But making constant short sarcastic and inflamatory comments, that aren't clearly related to any bad personal experience you may have had with an exploiter of Native culture, makes me a bit uncomfortable .

I tend to think this sort of communication does not help build understanding or cooperation. Especially if the person appears to be listening or trying to and is trying to engage in a respectful dialog . 

Just my opinion

Thank you moma,
I have a hard time listening to people who want to badger instead of trying to teach.
Thing need tyo change but we must do it with respect

[frederica]

Leonard, There is a way to say things and a way not to say them. Too much drama takes away from whatever you are talking about. Just my opinion, but I have a hard time following your train of thought.

[Leonard]

Thank you - yes, I do too sometimes when emotions of the past are involved - I shall try to be more focased in the future.

Leonard.

[A.H.]

Yes, internet is a "trickster" as I read somewhere on this forum.  And it is hard sometimes to understand that although someone has ideas and wishes that might be astray or at least look that way to us / you - they could actually be sincerely seeking out some answers...

I tried really hard not to be offended by your attacks Leonard. I haven't attacked you I just expressed what I belive and am thinking about. I accept new facts that prove to be more meaningful and overrule my mistakes very quickly.

No harm done. I'm o.k. with you altough you are obviously not with me.

And I will only occasionally read this forum from now on - or post if I discover some blatant fraud.  So don't be afraid of any more "spam".



bet regards

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Iktomi, I deleted your last message. It made no sense.

[Kevin]

my .02 worth -

My Dad was what they call a water witch - he could find where water was using a willow branch and I saw him find several wells in this way. Is that power in me or my brother? We will never know because there is no need to find out, no call from any people to find water for them so it will be dead soon.

At a family funeral recently, I learned that a sister in law, now passed for 5-6 years or so, was what they call a fire-puller, meaning with some whispered words and her spit, she could take the pain and sting of a burn away and there would fast healing with no scar. Her own daughters told me this and one had been herself burned by a motorcycle exhuast pipe and healed by her mother. They told of many kids being brought to her for this service. This power could be passed on by rotating gender to non  immediate family members only, in other words, no child of hers could be given the power, but a son-in-law could who in turn could pass it on to one daughter-in-law. She did not pass the power on and it is gone. There were no more calls from people to have the fire pulled from burns. The power died, just like a great tree will die.

This power was brought over from some place in Europe as we are caucasion people. It did not originate here on this land but it is gone now from amongst us. This is what happens when people travel, though I am told in the appalachian mountains in different places there are still what they call old yarb women who retain some of the old European power and are keeping it alive but they say it too is dying out fast.

All the rhetoric and wishful thinking and fancily worded rationales and longing and sincere interest and natural chemicals are of no avail. The power of the red people of this land is genetically, biologically and culturally locked and bound to them alone. Play Indian all you want and read all the books you can and sincerely talk to all the traditionals you want but it will avail you nothing. That does not mean one cannot benefit from the power of this land and obtain healing and help but non-Indians can never wield the power. It is not that difficult to accpet this reality.