Author Topic: using postings in my class  (Read 8972 times)

Offline rob

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using postings in my class
« on: March 21, 2007, 12:40:44 pm »
I am not sure where to post this. I would like to use some of the posting of nahalquo in my class. He has a way of explaining things well in a respectful way, f.e. the posting about feeding the ancesters.
I teach 12-15years olds. They are not much into new age, but a lot of the parents are.
Is that OK ?

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2007, 05:58:25 pm »
Hhhm, there are several questions going through my head.

Do you teach at a Waldorf school, or a Waldorf-influenced charter school? If so, you should be aware that Waldorf's founder, Rudolf Steiner, believed that Indians are a "senile race" which was doomed to disappear, after handing over everything of value to the invaders.

By all means go ahead and ask nahualqo for permission to reproduce her/his postings. If you want to teach your students about Indians, why not approach a local tribal government or urban Indian association? No disrespect to nahualqo but a real live speaker the kids can ask questions of would be much more interesting than any of our words on paper or a screen. However there are fake tribal associations looking to vacuum up people of distant Indian ancestry. If you have any doubts about a particular group, feel free to ask here.

Offline rob

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Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2007, 10:59:58 pm »
The only thing I heard about Steiner is that he says every ancient race is doomed to disappear. So what happened to indians, maya, inca etc... was in the order of things. Shamanism  is considered also as being part of a development of manking that is completely of the past and should never be encouraged. But I teach in a regular school.
The idea was just to use the posting  when a discussion about neo shamanism should come up. But after considering I can tell the ideas of the forum in general.
So with this I withdraw the question.

Offline nahualqo

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Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2007, 12:34:02 am »
Rob, I used to be a guest speaker at the Los Angeles Unfied school district teaching about Native Americans. You are free to use anything that I have spoken if it helps you. I generally am speaking for the Native American audience here as an interested Native American. I have earned no special tribal authority.

Offline educatedindian

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Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2007, 03:21:39 am »
Rob, I'm glad you chose to ask first. That's a good sign. The general policy for this board is that we ask that you ask any individual board member for the right to repost their posts or use them elsewhere. Each person has (or should, in an ideal world) the final say in where their words wind up. A few like myself have said many times that anyone is welcome to use their words anywhere it will do any good.

But I really have to wonder.... It seems your hope is to try to get through to the parents through what their kids learn and pass along. A lot of Nuagers see only what they wish to see, and often filter out or worse, misuse what they've learned, learn in effect to be more subtle or effective exploiters.

I'm not trying to discourage you, only prepare you for a different outcome than what you might expect. Don't be surprised, for example, to hear "He's only one Indian, the rest are different, he's an extremist, an outcast, a racist, I bet he's not fullblood, not a pipecarrier, not a REAL one you know", etc. Quoting from a wide variety of speakers might get you better results.

Where is this, I wonder, where "a lot" are into neo/pseudo shamanism?

I know Trish's site used to have a list of quotes from many NDN leaders about Nuage, from Deloria, Oren Lyons, Wendy Rose, etc. Does anyone have a link to it?

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2007, 01:50:31 pm »

Offline nahualqo

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Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2007, 02:16:34 pm »
Great source! I was unaware the problem had become so prevelant!

Here is the link educatedindian mentioned ;  :)

http://web.archive.org/web/20051215184610/users.pandora.be/gohiyuhi/articles/index.htm

Offline debbieredbear

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Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2007, 04:50:58 pm »
You didn't know it was so prevalent, but you have criticized us for putting up this board??   ???

You need to take a trip to yopur local "metaphysical" or "new age" bookstore. Pick up some of their freebee newspapers and look at their "shamanism" or "Native American" sections. Then maybe, you will get an understanding of why we are so against these frauds. The elders are busy trying to lead their lives, survive, and you think they have time for all these frauds? Mostly we are dealing with the ines who have a web presence. There are many that don't have a website, or a book, and they are as bad or worse. The one I would most like to deal with, would require me to have contact with people from the nation he claims and as many NDNS as I know, I do not know anyone who is Caddo. Which the fraud can't even pronounce correctly.

Offline nahualqo

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Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2007, 03:24:26 am »
I never criticized you for putting up this board because I support your overall efforts.The more I see the more I know how important it is right now. I would like to see which wording I used that told you I don't support this board. I would not have known of the problem had you not put up this board. I believe that you need to include elders from the tribe of the offender to discipline those that are exploiting our beliefs. Why is this getting lost. It is a simple thing. The only person that properly responded to my concerns was educated_indian. If you have problems with getting in touch with elders after having tried then you have acted properly. I do have the rights to respectfully post on this board how I feel. That is the whole point with a bbs.


You didn't know it was so prevalent, but you have criticized us for putting up this board??   ???

You need to take a trip to yopur local "metaphysical" or "new age" bookstore. Pick up some of their freebee newspapers and look at their "shamanism" or "Native American" sections. Then maybe, you will get an understanding of why we are so against these frauds. The elders are busy trying to lead their lives, survive, and you think they have time for all these frauds? Mostly we are dealing with the ines who have a web presence. There are many that don't have a website, or a book, and they are as bad or worse. The one I would most like to deal with, would require me to have contact with people from the nation he claims and as many NDNS as I know, I do not know anyone who is Caddo. Which the fraud can't even pronounce correctly.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 03:00:58 pm by nahualqo »

Offline nahualqo

  • Posts: 57
Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2007, 02:55:51 pm »
I haven't had the chance to go to the book store to look up new age stuff, but I will look it up and see what you are talking about. On another post frederica described how she dealt with people selling vision quests for a $1000+ and she contacted the Nations involved and acted in concert. Bravo!

You didn't know it was so prevalent, but you have criticized us for putting up this board??   ???

You need to take a trip to yopur local "metaphysical" or "new age" bookstore. Pick up some of their freebee newspapers and look at their "shamanism" or "Native American" sections. Then maybe, you will get an understanding of why we are so against these frauds. The elders are busy trying to lead their lives, survive, and you think they have time for all these frauds? Mostly we are dealing with the ines who have a web presence. There are many that don't have a website, or a book, and they are as bad or worse. The one I would most like to deal with, would require me to have contact with people from the nation he claims and as many NDNS as I know, I do not know anyone who is Caddo. Which the fraud can't even pronounce correctly.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 02:59:21 pm by nahualqo »

frederica

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Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2007, 04:28:38 pm »
I appreciate the credit, but I didn't do that. The Council was made aware of what was being sold by others. I sorta understand what you are talking about. But I wonder where exactly do you draw the line. I've seen people have their kids sell junk in the Border towns to tourist. Sold as NDN made and more than likely made in Taiwan. But they need gas or grocery money. It's the same with the Sweats. You can't call it an American Indian Sauna, that wouldn't appeal to the nuagers. I have know Medicine people that would never deal with non-Indians.  The reason being is "they don't believe in it". It's simply a novelty or experience. If it's changed to meet their needs or whatever, it becomes corrupted. Anyway you go, it is a dilemma. I don't think any disrespect is meant when it is just being checked to exactly what is being done. You need good information before it can be directed to where it needs to go. Al runs a good list. He was gathering a list of Nation's or Tribal Information. Phone numbers and so on, but it is not up right now. Most Nation's have a listing on the Internet.                        For some reason, Sweats are the most controversial. Many just do not have group Sweats, individual yes. So if a person from a Nation that does not have group Sweats is selling them, makes me wonder whose he is selling. As long as there is a market for it, there is going to be some exploiters, NDN or not. It's a fact of life. frederica

Offline nahualqo

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Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2007, 04:33:04 am »
I don't believe selling sweats is just not a part of any Native American culture. The minute you sell the Sweat you have already abrogated any traditional covenant. What then does the Sweat become? It has already gone beyond propriety?

I appreciate the credit, but I didn't do that. The Council was made aware of what was being sold by others. I sorta understand what you are talking about. But I wonder where exactly do you draw the line. I've seen people have their kids sell junk in the Border towns to tourist. Sold as NDN made and more than likely made in Taiwan. But they need gas or grocery money. It's the same with the Sweats. You can't call it an American Indian Sauna, that wouldn't appeal to the nuagers. I have know Medicine people that would never deal with non-Indians.  The reason being is "they don't believe in it". It's simply a novelty or experience. If it's changed to meet their needs or whatever, it becomes corrupted. Anyway you go, it is a dilemma. I don't think any disrespect is meant when it is just being checked to exactly what is being done. You need good information before it can be directed to where it needs to go. Al runs a good list. He was gathering a list of Nation's or Tribal Information. Phone numbers and so on, but it is not up right now. Most Nation's have a listing on the Internet.                        For some reason, Sweats are the most controversial. Many just do not have group Sweats, individual yes. So if a person from a Nation that does not have group Sweats is selling them, makes me wonder whose he is selling. As long as there is a market for it, there is going to be some exploiters, NDN or not. It's a fact of life. frederica


Offline rob

  • Posts: 8
Re: using postings in my class
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2007, 08:43:17 pm »
I read the thread. Thank you.
The  issue probably will never come up in class ( unless they make a computergame on the subject). But thanks everybody for helping.