NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: Barnaby_McEwan on May 22, 2006, 09:05:11 am
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While looking for the elusive 'Wa-Na-Nee-Che' on UK websites I found this (http://www2.thny.bbc.co.uk/nottingham/content/articles/2006/03/30/male_witch_person_profile.shtml), which got me thinking. I don't think neo-pagans would want frauds hanging around their events hoping to pick up trade. The conference mentioned in the BBC article was run by the biggest neo-pagan organisation in the UK, the Pagan Federation (http://www.paganfed.org/).
If we could educate their organisers, they could educate their members. What do people think?
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I'd be happy to talk with them. Give them my email if they ask. And of course they're welcome here.
You might also bring up the earlier suggestion of a pagan version of NAFPS, point them towards the thread. They'd also be welcome to use us as a resource. And maybe we should talk with them about a code of ethics, simple things like:
Listen to Native objections
Respect Native wishes
Cease hosting anyone identified as a fraud
Post warnings on the dangers of phony sweatlodges
Post warnings on frauds known to sexually abuse followers, use or threaten violence, promote racism, etc.
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I've emailed the PF's Interfaith Manager, and invited her here.
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Hello Barnaby
I am privy to correspondence forwarded to the PF's Interfaith Manager in which you often refer to people associated with Native American spirituality as "Indians".
You stated in your correspondence, "As you can imagine, Indians generally take a very dim view of the frauds and those people who insist on buying what they sell: many Indian activists consider the commodification of Indian religious ceremonies to be a continuation of genocide...".
I do appreciate the sentiment.
Do you not think that perpetuating the 'Indian in America' myth you are not yourself doing Native American spirituality and peoples an even greater dis-service?
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Huh? :-?
Do you not think that perpetuating the 'Indian in America' myth you are not yourself doing Native American spirituality and peoples an even greater dis-service?
Which myth would that be that Barnaby is perpetuating? :-? What exactly is "Native American Spirituality"? Because the only ones I hear using that term are those who know little about American Indians. Yes, I use that term, Indian. You do realize there was no "India" when the murderous Columbus found himself on our shores, do you not?
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'Siyo Arie,
I am cherokee and am not understanding your term "American Indian myth". :-/Are you saying we The First Peoples" are a myth?? Barnaby is far from exploting our Spirituality and that is what this site is about. Please would you clarify that statement. WE ARE HERE AND NOT A MYTH!!
WADO THOMAS
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I am privy to correspondence forwarded to the PF's Interfaith Manager in which you often refer to people associated with Native American spirituality as "Indians".
She mentioned that she'd forwarded my email to the Pagan Federation's president and asked permission to forward it to 'some other groups', which I hadn't yet given because I was concerned about random nutters turning up here and posting nonsense. Are you Amergin Og, the PF's current president? (http://www.paganfed.org/mugshots/amergin-og.jpg) I'd like to think not, because the rest of your post doesn't make any sense to me. This is not a good start: pagans of alll stripes tend not to be terribly popular with Indians and you're not helping.
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Anthropologists refer to 'Native American spirituality' when speaking of the indigenous religious traditions of the peoples who already inhabited the Americas prior to contact with Europeans.
A casual google search on the term will bring you to the following informative sites on the subject:
http://www.csp.org/communities/native_american.html
http://members.aol.com/porchfour/religion/nativeam.htm
http://www.greenspirit.org.uk/Resources/NatAmerSpirit.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/naspirit.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nataspir.htm
I am not claiming to be a practitioner of your indigenous traditions. I believe it would be disrespectful of me to pretend to understand what those traditions are.
"...no "India" when the murderous Columbus found himself on our shores..."? ;D
India's historic existence is older than 9 thousand years, including the Indus Valley, Vedic and Indo-Aryan civilizations.
Historians tell us Columbus arrived in what he thought was Asia (searching for India), but turned out to be the Americas, in 1492 (?).
I note that in most of the articles on native / indigenous American spirituality the peoples themselves are refered to as Indians. The myth to which I refered was that of Columbus in having believed he had discovered India.
I meant no disrespect to your indigenous culture or peoples.
Please respond to my sincere questioning without attacking my person as a Pagan. I mean no harm, so why the long knives :D
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The country that Columbis was suppsedly seeking was called "Hindustan" at the time. It has only been called "India" in more modern times. "Native American Spirituality" ignores the fact that there are more than 500 nations each haveing it's ony spiritual/religious beliefs. There is not one monolithic "Native American Spirituality. My Plains tribe is vastly different then my husand's Coastal tribe in beliefs.
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I forgot to mention that all your links seem to have been written by non-Indians.
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I respect the fact that the term itself does not truly represent the ancestral indigenous traditions you have inherited as First Americans. Obviously I am incorrect in assuming that the use of the word Indian was disrespectful. Obviously you feel it is not. Thank you for explaining why you feel it is not inappropriate.
I am a member of one of the forums to which Barnaby's invitation to collaborate was forwarded in anticipation of permission. I am not a member of the UK Pagan Federation. I am a South African. The correspondence was posted in good faith to the South African Pagan Rights Alliance yahoo forum at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sapra/
Please forgive the unwanted intrusion.
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[edit]This thread's title is not "etymological origin of the word India..."[/edit]
[Barnaby]
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Anthropologists refer to 'Native American spirituality'
Yes, and they are often not popular with Indians either.
A casual google search...
Thanks, I know how to use Google: that's how I now know that you're not Amergin Og but a South African pagan activist (http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=236735&area=/columnist_franz_kruger/). Of course you could have saved me the trouble by just answering my question. Also I know that relying on casual searches leads to superficial understanding. I'm sure you'd agree that a casual Google search for "pagan spirituality" would not be a good way to learn more than casually about paganism. The 'long knives' you complain about are presumably out because you presume to lecture Indians about their own beliefs despite obviously knowing nothing. It is precisely this kind of behaviour which gives pagans a bad name.
The myth to which I refered was that of Columbus in having believed he had discovered India.
I used the word 'Indian' because that's how most Indians refer to themselves unless they're talking about the specific nation they're from. Now we've finished dealing with your display of cleverness, do you have anything at all to say on collaborating with us in preventing harm to pagans at the hands of ceremony-peddlers? Before you post about any other subject I suggest you set your listen/talk ratio to a value much larger than one for a long while. If you'd done that earlier, you might have read this thread (http://www.newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1144622724) and not made a fool of yourself.
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Ariel,
No one said you had to leave. But before you lecture someone on what to call themselves, and about their spiritual beliefs, maybe you need to stop and consider who you are posting to. The majority of us on this board are First Nations people. Most of us call ourselves Indian, or by the tribe we come from. I do not practice "Native American Spirituality". I live the ways of my ancestors. I live in the culture of my ancestors. It is not a religion, it is a lifeway. It is not something some one can teach you to be in a series of classes for a few weeks. It is not something that seks converts. There are non-Natuve people in the community. They are usually married to someone who is a tribal member.
Stick around. Maybe we will each learn something. For me, I would like to learn how to make my pagan friends understand how harmful it is to take bits and pieces of my culture and drop it into the middle of a pagan ceremony. There religion tells them "If it feels good do it unless it harms someone." Well, it DOES harm someone. But they do not wish to hear that. It interferes with their wanting to do whatever strikes their fancy.
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Indeed :)
Thank you for the informative referal.
I do not feel like a fool, no, as I have learned something from you.
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Ariel,
I, too, am an "Indian". Specifically, I am of the Puyallup Nation, which is Coast Salish. I don't have a problem with the word "indian" simply because of its common usage. However, in a formal introduction I would introduce myself by name, nation and family lineage.
I appreciate you not wishing to sound disrepectful by using the word "Indian" and in fact, there are those who do have valid, strong objections to the word. I prefer the generic term 'native peoples'. In truth, speaking for self only, whatever slang is used doesn't matter much, because I am Puyallup, and nothing else.
I think this misunderstanding, though, points out exactly the issues that you were invited here to learn about. There is concern that Pagan folks are being misled by those who pretend a high degree of knowledge or expertise of traditional native spiritual practices. It creates a dangerous situation for the pagan as they are being taught at best a lie and at worse physica and spiritual damage. "Traditional' native spiritual practices are defined by culture; simply meaning that I as a Puyallup follow a spiritual/cultural path different than a Lakota, a Haida, a Crow or any of the over 500 nations. Spiritual is part of the cultural and cultural is part of the spiritual.
Words have power..as we've already seen in this discussion. Please feel free to ask questions, but please hear the words spoken in response without making judgements based on incomplete information. Thank you.
Storm
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Ariel,
I'm Indian, or NDN, or American Indian, or Native. Makes no difference to me, or to most other NDNs, who generally prefer to call themselves Indian. What anthros or any other profession or outsiders say is of lesser importance, since there are far more important issues.
Hope you stick around, because we've heard before about exploiters making their way to S Africa, the most notorious probably being Roy "Littlesun" and his phony cure for AIDs and working with Credo Mutwa. We've actually talked before about doing a sepaking tour of S Africa to counter the frauds going down there.
I'd also like to hear from you about how popular Nuage is down there, esp ones posing as Native medicine people, and why that would appeal to S Africans.
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i guess if you want to object to the name indian because this is not now nor ever was india then its equally wrong to call us native americans since our respective nations all predate america. when in doubt ask what someone prefers. ok, back to the matter at hand.....
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I am a member of the Pagan Fed, in fact i am on the council for our district Mid-West and Wales, but i am only one voice and if the other council members want a fraud at one of our conferences, then i can only voice my opinion.
It was pointed out to me by a long time member of the PF that it is a networking group not a police force, as we were discussing certain peoples in the area who were charging large sums for courses and how we could deal with them.
I will still do what i can for the exposer of fakes fraudsters and the like but i think it going to be a long up hill battle
Graham
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It was pointed out to me by a long time member of the PF that it is a networking group not a police force
I think that's a cop-out. The Pagan Federation engages in more than networking amongst believers: it's made itself the main public face of British neo-paganism and seeks to represent it in dealing with various public bodies. If it has a duty to educate the non-pagan public, then it also has a similar duty to its own members.
It would be handy if PF officials would spend a bit of time networking with us: then a few of their members might avoid getting burned, perhaps literally in a phony sweatlodge. Thanks for your efforts in this regard.
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Graham, just how far would they take this "we're not police" attitude? Would they seriously stand by and still invite someone who assaulted women under the guise of a ceremony, for example?
Not wanting to seem to be criticizing you, because your own stance is quite different. Just hope you'll pass along to them what we say. I'd like to see pagan groups adopt codes of ethics that specifically bar all abusers, spiritual and otherwise. After all, many of them hold their faiths to be somehow better than, for example, most Christian churches in how they treat people, and I'd see them live up to that.
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I totally agree with you
but what can you expect from a group that is at this moment taiking about lowering the age of membership, at the moment you have to be 18 or over to join but there are a few who want it lowering to 16 which could drop us into all sorts of trouble as most moots are held in pubs
we get enough bad press as it is
will just have to do my best and pass on the good info you guys are posting
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there was a meeting of district managers and regional co-ordinaters in Leeds the other week out of a possible 60 plus people less then 12 turned up and most of them where from the north
first time it has been held outside of London
shows were peoples priorites lay