NAFPS Forum

Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: Gwaewael on June 19, 2012, 03:37:28 am

Title: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 19, 2012, 03:37:28 am
Do I have this right?  This is an email I just sent to a young man in Guatemala City.  I'm especially uncertain about my comments about Buddhism.  I'm thanking you in advance to avoid making a post that says just, "Thank you".

Hi Luis,

It's good to hear from you again.

The big news in my life right now is that I've joined a forum on the internet.  It's a site for North, Central, and South American Indians and all other native peoples from around the world, like the Australian aborigines, the Hawaiians, the Sami, etc. and their supporters.  Many native people are complaining that non-native people are stealing their sacred ceremonies and ritual objects.  It's as offensive and disrespectful as if traditional Indians broke into a church and held a native ceremony, and later one of their members claimed to be a priest and imitated one, and then they took away the communion wafers for their later use.  Native peoples can be found all around the world and they're very angry that their sacred ways are being profaned by outsiders.

I do like and respect the Dalai Lama, although I don't actually know much about Buddhism.  Since native people are so angry now about people who want to follow their ways, I would be worried about your interest in Buddhism.  Fortunately it's safe to follow the Dalai Lama without offending native peoples, since he's made his teachings public.  There's a monastery near my home town where Americans are living as Tibetan monks under the leadership of the Dalai Lama.  He comes to town and speaks from time to time.  So Tibetan Buddhism is a non-controversial spiritual path to look into, so long as you read the works of real Buddhists and not the works of people pretending to be Buddhists.  Tell me, what do you like about Buddhism?

etc.

Bye for now,
Gwaewael

Do I have this right?
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 19, 2012, 04:06:24 am
My only comment can be that, you should probably learn to be careful on the internet because there
are a lot of predators on the internet. And I don't like to see anyone harmed.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: earthw7 on June 19, 2012, 11:50:28 am
i would wonder why you would think you had the right unless you are Buddhist or native?
In other words the native do have a voice we have many supporter like on
this site but they are respectful they ask our opinion before doing anything
of course i can not speak for people who are buddhist but i think their way is
different from ours they welcome outsider in their beliefs
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: educatedindian on June 19, 2012, 12:01:24 pm
Buddhism is evangelical the same way Christianity is. They want to convert people and are focused on individual belief, where Native traditions are centered on community practice.

There are some exploiters out there who pose as Buddhist spiritual leaders, and some cults that are Buddhist or claim to be. Recall the cult that did the subway poison gas attacks in Japan.

And there are some exploiters of Native traditions who are themselves Buddhists, such as Naropa.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 19, 2012, 02:55:14 pm
Thanks, everyone, that's all very interesting and helpful.  I guess Buddhism isn't off bounds, then.  I'm relieved.

Hi critter!  Thanks for the warning.  It's good to remind people about the dangers of the internet, because people CAN get hurt.  I actually know this person, though.  He's a nephew of mine from a former marriage, and he writes me because he wants to practice English.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 19, 2012, 03:43:58 pm
Buddhism is evangelical the same way Christianity is. They want to convert people and are focused on individual belief, where Native traditions are centered on community practice.

I wouldn't call Buddhism evangelical the same way Christianity is. I live in an evangelical
Christian society, and it is nothing like Buddhism. I know there are "western" (if that's what it's called)
mindsets that influence or mix or mingle with what was Buddhism. But I've never met
a real Buddhist who tried to convert me, or who were focused on individual belief to the extent
of ousting the community. Dalai Lama promotes community responsibility and altruism, without
requirement to be a believer of his religion. Whereas Christian evangelism's purpose is to
convert, and during Hurricane Katrina, they refused to help if they could not also evangelize. It's
far far different.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 19, 2012, 05:11:52 pm
There are many different traditions of Buddhism, just as there are different kinds of Christians. Some reach out for converts, some include evangelism as a core tenet of practice, while others are more quiet.

I have to agree with earth on this one: Since you are neither Buddhist nor Native, why are you dispensing advice about these things? If you know this young man personally, why do you want us to vet your personal emails? If he is a relative, why is it relevant that he's in Guatemala?

Something we have seen over and over here, and with other activist groups, is we often have non-Natives showing up and wanting to be granted some kind of right to speak for Native people. Sometimes we've had appropriators show up with these motives, hoping to fool us. Often these people think that after a few exchanges on this board they now know enough to dispense advice on Native issues. Again, it's white privilege and white people expecting to find a shortcut on a process that in reality takes a very long time.  Respectful people have listened intently to NDNs for years before even trying to speak on these issues, and even then, instead of trying to explain it oneself, it is better to quote respected Natives or give someone a link to read. It's a good thing that you want to learn how to overcome your racial prejudice and white privilege, but you're just getting started here and you still have a lot of learning to do. I don't say that to be mean, just to state the facts. White people are raised with a different mindset. Not all white people are alike, of course; some of us have come up in more traditional cultures that place a higher priority on community and morality than do others. But it's still different from what NDNs have been through. It takes time and patience and humility to even begin to understand.

Please read "The Do's and Don'ts of Being a Good Ally" http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2365.0 and the linked pieces there. We'll be adding more resources to that thread, but that's a good start.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 19, 2012, 06:22:28 pm
Hi Kathryn!  Why shouldn’t I ask you people to vet one of my emails?  Is that a crime?  It’s what I actually said to someone.  I was worried whether I had said anything wrong, and I wanted some help with it.  I wanted you to see the exact words to judge them.  You guys are the experts.  And I was worried about the entire email.  Everyone has been focusing on the part about Buddhism, but I was worried about all of it.  I guess I got the first paragraph right because no one has commented on it.  I didn’t regard that email as personal.  No personal information was included.  I mentioned Guatemala City, since I thought people on this forum might be glad to know that their message had just spread a little bit more.  Was it a crime to tell you where he lives?  I gave him advice on Buddhism because he asked me for advice on Buddhism.

What do you mean by “Since you are neither Buddhist nor Native, why are you dispensing advice about these things?”  I notice that everybody has been dispensing knowledge about Buddhism on this thread, which is a type of advice.  And why are you mentioning Native as a qualification?  Being Native doesn’t qualify you to talk about Buddhism.  The fact is, people just talk among themselves from time to time about religions.  It’s ridiculous to think they’re going to ask Natives or religious specialists for permission every time.  I did much more than what most people do by asking for help here.  If you people told me I had made an error I would have written him again to correct it.

Everybody here is so sour.  I looked at the humor section and it wasn’t funny.  It was mostly anger.


(Yikes!  What I've just said!  I’m going to put on a helmet and head for the hills.)
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: clearwater on June 19, 2012, 08:25:51 pm
Well I suppose I'm a little confused by the initial intent of the thread. Asking if you have a right to dispense advice to another...? Why ask such a question? You are seeking validation of your right to dispense advice? I don't quite get it, but maybe I do.

There is much missing from your OP. I have no clue what question was asked of you, so how therefore can I know if your answer was appropriate or if you have a right to do what ever it is you think you did or did not do. You are a free human being. You can dispense your advice to anyone who asks for it. Why do you need approval for that? What does it matter what I think, or anyone on this board thinks, about you or what you are doing or have done? No one is going to judge you for this, although you asked for opinions and you are getting them. If your advise is followed, or ignored, I see no consequence to anyone, even the person you gave the advice to.

There is something unstated in play here, and it has already displayed itself by you. So here is my opinion, and that's all it is. The opening post is a red herring, an introduction, a foot in the door, for something else unstated. You came asking a question. It's okay if you don't like the answers. But why disparage those who you asked for their opinion? Has the person who asked for your opinion, disparaged you?

The comments about checking out the site, that it's negative, even the humor ... and you're being positive in saying that? Seems to me you brought some negativity here to begin with, asking silly questions. All in my personal opinion, of course. The question you ask is silly to me, you have answered you own question already, and so what more do you seek? To pass judgment? I am confused.

Just asking.

= = == =

I am neither Indian, or Buddhist. But I find a lot of the jokes to be wry humor, but that's just me  ::)
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: clearwater on June 19, 2012, 08:55:01 pm
Hi Kathryn!  Why shouldn’t I ask you people to vet one of my emails?  Is that a crime?  It’s what I actually said to someone.  I was worried whether I had said anything wrong, and I wanted some help with it.  I wanted you to see the exact words to judge them.  You guys are the experts.  And I was worried about the entire email.  Everyone has been focusing on the part about Buddhism, but I was worried about all of it.  I guess I got the first paragraph right because no one has commented on it.  I didn’t regard that email as personal.  No personal information was included.  I mentioned Guatemala City, since I thought people on this forum might be glad to know that their message had just spread a little bit more.  Was it a crime to tell you where he lives?  I gave him advice on Buddhism because he asked me for advice on Buddhism.

What do you mean by “Since you are neither Buddhist nor Native, why are you dispensing advice about these things?”  I notice that everybody has been dispensing knowledge about Buddhism on this thread, which is a type of advice.  And why are you mentioning Native as a qualification?  Being Native doesn’t qualify you to talk about Buddhism.  The fact is, people just talk among themselves from time to time about religions.  It’s ridiculous to think they’re going to ask Natives or religious specialists for permission every time.  I did much more than what most people do by asking for help here.  If you people told me I had made an error I would have written him again to correct it.


I don't mean to pick apart your posts, but there is definitely more going on here. So I will address the things I've bolded above.

No one wants to judge your words. You came here and asked them to pass judgment on what you have done. You assume that Native Americans are the experts. Experts at what? Passing judgment on emails about Buddhism? What makes you think that?

Someone who you know asked you for advise about Buddhism, and you gave it. You then feel guilty I suppose, and come to a Native American forum and asked of folks you don't know, if you did the right thing. That right there does not make much sense to me. Why second guess yourself like this? Honestly, does it really matter? What harm have you done or think you may have done? I see no harm, no foul. What have I missed? You did not dispense grand esoteric spiritual knowledge, did you? I didn't see it. So then, you came here asking for advice (kind of like what someone did to you, asked for advice) and you don't like the answers you are getting. Again, what does it matter? Just accept the answers for what they are.

No one said anything about being Native American being a qualification to answer your questions. Where did that come from? You asked for opinions you got opinions. You asked for judgment, and don't like it when opinions may seem judgmental. You should accept these answers from these folks in the spirit in which the are intended. I am still unclear about the spirit in which they have been asked...

I just assume that you came here in the spirit of learning, or wondering, of having an open heart and an open mind. That being said, life still deals out answers than one doesn't like sometimes. Just part of life.

All in my humble opinion, and that's all it is. My opinion and I speak only for myself. Others may agree with me, I don't know.


Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 20, 2012, 01:22:47 am
Hi clearwater!  The confusion is due to the fact that the name I chose for the thread has an accidental double meaning.  By “Do I have this right?“ I meant, “Did I get this right?”  On this site of course everyone took it differently.

Oh, for crying out loud!  People here have a LOT of issues with the misuse of spiritual traditions.  You’re all OF COURSE creating confusion and guilt in many people.  I suddenly feel on tip-toe in the world, wondering, “Is this OK?  Is that OK?”.  I want to know what the rules are.  You should all be glad that I do and realize this is a natural part of non-natives learning how to respect native ways.  But you seem to want people to change without teaching or helping them.  Why are you going on with wise, reproving comments like, “You are a free human being… What does it matter what I think, or anyone on this board thinks, about you or what you are doing or have done?”  The thing is YOU ALL THINK WHAT I THINK AND DO MATTERS!  AND ALL NON-NATIVE PEOPLE LIKE ME!  THAT’S WHAT THIS FORUM IS ABOUT!”

I’m losing it!  I’ve gotten almost nothing but disparagement since I joined this forum.  That’s what I meant when I said people are sour here.

My questions are not silly.  And I didn’t answer my own question (as though THAT’S a bad thing).  I waited until I got feed back from people on this site.  How dare you accuse me of answering my own question?  YOU’RE silly!  Take that!

Yeah, I know, you’re “Just asking”.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: clearwater on June 20, 2012, 01:30:49 am
No problems.

I wish you well.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Epiphany on June 20, 2012, 01:33:36 am

Everybody here is so sour.  I looked at the humor section and it wasn’t funny.  It was mostly anger.


You are generalizing. I don't think generalizations will serve you well in our conversations here. :)

You experience the humor section as not funny. Okay. Remember that is your experience, and that everyone has the right to their own boundaries and integrity and opinions. I hear the humor section as thought provoking and witty.

Anger? If I think I am hearing anger, I know I might be wrong. I also know that anger is okay. I know I don't have to mess with anyone else's experience, it is not up to me to tell people what to do or how to feel. 

As a person with white privilege I know that I am somewhat clueless. So if I don't understand something, if I feel upset by what I am hearing - I figure that says more about me than about anyone else. I don't insist that someone change their behavior and words so that I can understand. That would be arrogant.

I instead take care of myself. Maybe I'm triggered and need to take a break ( an example of white privilege is that I -can- take a break). I listen, and read, and learn as I can. I understand that there are some things that I may never get. Many things will be mysterious to me, not everyone will like me, I don't get to go everywhere and take everything.

I know I'll make mistakes. Sometimes I will get things right. I do the best I can.

It helps immensely to -not- tell other people how to behave. That would be violating healthy boundaries.

You are experiencing us as attacking. We aren't. :)

Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Epiphany on June 20, 2012, 01:37:08 am
Hi clearwater!  The confusion is due to the fact that the name I chose for the thread has an accidental double meaning.  By “Do I have this right?“ I meant, “Did I get this right?”  On this site of course everyone took it differently.

Oh, for crying out loud!  People here have a LOT of issues with the misuse of spiritual traditions.  You’re all OF COURSE creating confusion and guilt in many people.  I suddenly feel on tip-toe in the world, wondering, “Is this OK?  Is that OK?”.  I want to know what the rules are.  You should all be glad that I do and realize this is a natural part of non-natives learning how to respect native ways.  But you seem to want people to change without teaching or helping them.  Why are you going on with wise, reproving comments like, “You are a free human being… What does it matter what I think, or anyone on this board thinks, about you or what you are doing or have done?”  The thing is YOU ALL THINK WHAT I THINK AND DO MATTERS!  AND ALL NON-NATIVE PEOPLE LIKE ME!  THAT’S WHAT THIS FORUM IS ABOUT!”

I’m losing it!  I’ve gotten almost nothing but disparagement since I joined this forum.  That’s what I meant when I said people are sour here.

My questions are not silly.  And I didn’t answer my own question (as though THAT’S a bad thing).  I waited until I got feed back from people on this site.  How dare you accuse me of answering my own question?  YOU’RE silly!  Take that!

Yeah, I know, you’re “Just asking”.


No need to "lose it", as you say. :) If you believe you are having a bad experience here it is absolutely fine to take a break.

Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 20, 2012, 01:41:55 am
Hi clearwater!  I know “you don’t mean to pick apart my posts”, so go ahead.

No one wants to judge my words?!?  EVERYONE HERE WANTS TO JUDGE MY WORDS!  THAT’S WHAT THIS FORUM IS ABOUT!  No one here wants anyone to falsely claim that they’re Cree, or that their great grandmother was a Cherokee princess, or that they were Ho Chunk in a previous life.  There are so many possible verbal crimes here it makes my head spin.  People care.

I thought you guys were experts with an awareness of world-wide issues relating to native religions (like Tibetan Buddhism.)  I really did.

I don‘t know how to use quotes.  This is the best I can do:  “Someone who you know asked you for advise about Buddhism, and you gave it. You then feel guilty I suppose, (no, worried, uncertain) and come to a Native American forum and asked of folks you don't know, if you did the right thing…  Why second guess yourself like this? (Because you guys have rules.  I don’t know what they are.  I was worried that I might be breaking them.) Honestly, does it really matter? (YES) What harm have you done or think you may have done? I see no harm, no foul. (Thank you.  That‘s nice of you.  I feel reassured.) What have I missed? (That some people need help to learn.  You guys are so ungracious about it I might never ask for it again on this site.)  You did not dispense grand esoteric spiritual knowledge, did you? I didn't see it. So then, you came here asking for advice (kind of like what someone did to you, asked for advice) and you don't like the answers you are getting.  (Many of the responses were unfriendly.) Again, what does it matter? (I have feelings.) Just accept the answers for what they are.  (That's wise, but currently impossible.  Maybe I'll be able to do it in the future.)

No one said anything about being Native American being a qualification to answer your questions. Where did that come from? ( I was attacked by someone who said something like, “If you’re not Buddhist or Native, why do you presume to give advice about Buddhism?”  This person seemed to be saying it would be OK to give such advice if I were Native.  I found that a little pompous, but maybe it was just an oversight?)  You asked for opinions you got opinions. You asked for judgment, and don't like it when opinions may seem judgmental. (I believe I got some judgments, which are useful, and a lot of judgmental comments, which cause harm.”) You should accept these answers from these folks in the spirit in which the are intended. (What spirit?  I don’t like to be abused.)  I am still unclear about the spirit in which they have been asked... (Thank you for saying that.  You may be right.  I’ll give it some thought.)

I just assume that you came here in the spirit of learning, or wondering, of having an open heart and an open mind. (Thank you for seeing who I am.  That's all true.) That being said, life still deals out answers than one doesn't like sometimes. Just part of life.  (Yes, that’s true.  But couldn't people make more of an effort to be helpful?  There's some sort of weird agenda here.  I'm trying to figure it out.)

All in my humble opinion, and that's all it is. My opinion and I speak only for myself. Others may agree with me, I don't know.  (Thank you so much.  That’s very sweet.)

Hi clearwater!  I assume you’re Native?  Hello.  I’m very happy to meet you.  This is exciting.  How would you like to be called?
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Diana on June 20, 2012, 02:26:37 am
Hi clearwater!  The confusion is due to the fact that the name I chose for the thread has an accidental double meaning.  By “Do I have this right?“ I meant, “Did I get this right?”  On this site of course everyone took it differently.

Oh, for crying out loud!  People here have a LOT of issues with the misuse of spiritual traditions.  You’re all OF COURSE creating confusion and guilt in many people.  I suddenly feel on tip-toe in the world, wondering, “Is this OK?  Is that OK?”.  I want to know what the rules are.  You should all be glad that I do and realize this is a natural part of non-natives learning how to respect native ways.  But you seem to want people to change without teaching or helping them.  Why are you going on with wise, reproving comments like, “You are a free human being… What does it matter what I think, or anyone on this board thinks, about you or what you are doing or have done?”  The thing is YOU ALL THINK WHAT I THINK AND DO MATTERS!  AND ALL NON-NATIVE PEOPLE LIKE ME!  THAT’S WHAT THIS FORUM IS ABOUT!”

I’m losing it!  I’ve gotten almost nothing but disparagement since I joined this forum.  That’s what I meant when I said people are sour here.

My questions are not silly.  And I didn’t answer my own question (as though THAT’S a bad thing).  I waited until I got feed back from people on this site.  How dare you accuse me of answering my own question?  YOU’RE silly!  Take that!

Yeah, I know, you’re “Just asking”.



crash and burn...crash and burn. Now who didn't see this coming? :D
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 20, 2012, 02:36:13 am
Hi Kathryn!  Why shouldn’t I ask you people to vet one of my emails?  Is that a crime?  It’s what I actually said to someone.  I was worried whether I had said anything wrong, and I wanted some help with it.  I wanted you to see the exact words to judge them.  You guys are the experts.  And I was worried about the entire email.  Everyone has been focusing on the part about Buddhism, but I was worried about all of it.  I guess I got the first paragraph right because no one has commented on it.  I didn’t regard that email as personal.  No personal information was included.  I mentioned Guatemala City, since I thought people on this forum might be glad to know that their message had just spread a little bit more.  Was it a crime to tell you where he lives?  I gave him advice on Buddhism because he asked me for advice on Buddhism.

What do you mean by “Since you are neither Buddhist nor Native, why are you dispensing advice about these things?”  I notice that everybody has been dispensing knowledge about Buddhism on this thread, which is a type of advice.  And why are you mentioning Native as a qualification?  Being Native doesn’t qualify you to talk about Buddhism.  The fact is, people just talk among themselves from time to time about religions.  It’s ridiculous to think they’re going to ask Natives or religious specialists for permission every time.  I did much more than what most people do by asking for help here.  If you people told me I had made an error I would have written him again to correct it.

Everybody here is so sour.  I looked at the humor section and it wasn’t funny.  It was mostly anger.


(Yikes!  What I've just said!  I’m going to put on a helmet and head for the hills.)


 :o

(emphasis added)
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 20, 2012, 02:41:19 am
Gwaewael, from my perspective, for whatever it's worth, if you're solid with who you are
then there would be no reason to feel guilty or confused unless you are actually doing
something that you are finding out is wrong.

Also, if you had read the board forums you'd have seen one that says "New members start here"
right up at the top in capital letters. Click on that and you can see 3 posts, one that says, "before
you post" Right under that is "DISCLAIMERS: All New People Must Read" and beneath that is
"PURPOSE OF THIS GROUP: All New People Must Read"

It really isn't hard to see/find those posts.

When you jump into a pond without looking, chances are you're not going to land how you
think you will.

Take some time, read some of the threads.

As for the jokes on new age peoples, well, take some time to research what is here about
those new age people, and also do some searching on your own for what is not here. There
are plenty of other blogs, forums, even youtube video's that debunk so many of their claims.
So, jokes are made about them and what they do.

I'm not sure why you say you got nothing but disparagement when even I'm here trying to
give you some guidance on how to deal with the unpleasant things you may see about the
new age people that you are one of. Research, read what has already been researched and
don't be afraid to see the many scams that there are for what they are, scams.

I personally have not found the people here to be judgmental without cause. Meaning, they
research people and if there is reason to make a judgement on what those people are doing,
then they make it. With good reason. No one finds what you think or new age people think
matters, what matters is if they are taking from traditional practices and bastardizing those
items because they have no clue what they are doing. And in the end, are really only harming
their self and others by teaching wrong things to others and passing along the fraud as real,
and hurting the real people who's practices they have stolen.

What good karma can come from hurting thousands of people not to mention, pissing on the
spirits as well?

Anyway, I hope in your time off you will a bit of time each day to actually read the forum. Start
with the beginning that I pointed out above, and then just click and read wherever, that's what
I did when I started.. because as you say, there is SO MUCH info here it can be hard to know
where to start.. so.. start anywhere.. :)

Be well.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: clearwater on June 20, 2012, 02:44:23 am
Hmm. Well all I know is, I rarely post here. This afternoon I clicked the wrong thing on my browser, and it dropped down the newagefraud.org bookmark. I thought, well I haven't been there in a while, so I came here to the forum.

I rarely come here. I post here even less...

So this was the first thread I clicked on. I read what I read, and posted what I did.

So All I know is, something brought me here today, and I'll leave it at that.

As I said before Gwaewael, whatever is troubling you, I wish you well.

That's the best I can do. Hopefully, that's enough.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 20, 2012, 02:54:33 am
One other thing I want to add Gwaewael,

You are a stranger to me, I have no way of knowing what you mean, or don't mean. I
do not know you so I do not know .. sometimes have to realize that people who don't
know you in any way at all, will not know what it is you meant or were trying to do, as
opposed to those who know you well and so therefore, know. :)


So, a quick sentence to clear up a misunderstanding of what you've said/written helps
a lot instead of getting mad at us for misunderstanding.. I often type things that
are read in a way I wasn't expecting. I appreciate it when someone asks wtf did I
mean by that? Otherwise, how would I know that what I said was not clear to them,
although perfectly clear to me?




Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Smart Mule on June 20, 2012, 03:15:30 am
Hi clearwater!  The confusion is due to the fact that the name I chose for the thread has an accidental double meaning.  By “Do I have this right?“ I meant, “Did I get this right?”  On this site of course everyone took it differently.

(yes I know I am not clearwater)I took what you said as "Did I get this right?"

Quote
Oh, for crying out loud!  People here have a LOT of issues with the misuse of spiritual traditions.  You’re all OF COURSE creating confusion and guilt in many people.  I suddenly feel on tip-toe in the world, wondering, “Is this OK?  Is that OK?”.  I want to know what the rules are.

Yep, we sure do have a LOT of issues with the misuse of spiritual traditions!  Indigenous peoples are subjected to genocide every single day.  Did you know that it was illegal for us to practice our traditions until 1978? Did you know the government is still trying to prevent indigenous peoples from practicing our spiritual traditions? Here...in the United States?  Please take the time to check this site out http://www.winnememwintu.us/ (http://www.winnememwintu.us/).  The state of California refuses to protect young women during their coming of age ceremonies.  I understand that it is difficult to know what the right thing to say and do is and that it can be intimidating.

Quote
You should all be glad that I do and realize this is a natural part of non-natives learning how to respect native ways.  But you seem to want people to change without teaching or helping them.  Why are you going on with wise, reproving comments like, “You are a free human being… What does it matter what I think, or anyone on this board thinks, about you or what you are doing or have done?”  The thing is YOU ALL THINK WHAT I THINK AND DO MATTERS!  AND ALL NON-NATIVE PEOPLE LIKE ME!  THAT’S WHAT THIS FORUM IS ABOUT!”

No one expects people to change without teaching or helping them.  However, please understand that different people have different ways of teaching and helping just as different people have different ways of learning.  No one here is obligated to change their teaching and helping methods to suit each person who comes to learn.  That's not how it works :)  If you slow down a bit you can figure out which posters are helpful with your manner of learning.  I am not sure what you mean by all non-native people like you.  

Quote
I’m losing it!  I’ve gotten almost nothing but disparagement since I joined this forum.  That’s what I meant when I said people are sour here.

Gwaelwael I have no idea what your history is and it is none of my business.  You seem to be taking much of what is being said to you as a harsh personal judgement.  There is a difference between taking a person to task when they say or do something inappropriate and disparaging them as a person.  I understand that you might not like the manner in which things are being said.  Please understand that there are people here that in turn do not like the manner in which you are saying things.  I'm sure that when you reacted harshly to earth for example, you did not realize that she is a respected elder and has done considerable work for her community and the ndn community at large. 

sky

Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: clearwater on June 20, 2012, 03:43:05 am
Well I certainly admit I did misinterpret the meaning of the thread title and I apologize for that. But prior to posting, I read this thread, as well as the other thread you began about what name to apply to Indians NDN ndn, etc. Although I misunderstood the title, I don't think the tonality of your posts was really lost on me. So my posts here were within that context.

I guess what comes through to me through all this is a driving need for validation or approval. It seems to me you have come to this forum and assigned it a status within your perception of how it is or what it is.

Quote
I thought you guys were experts with an awareness of world-wide issues relating to native religions (like Tibetan Buddhism.)  I really did.

That's what I mean. This forum is comprised of diverse individuals from diverse cultures and backgrounds. There are a lot of wise folks here, you will find in time, but it's never a wisdom and answers on demand thing. It seems as if you are upset that this place is not meeting up to your expectations of it. Drop your expectations and you won't be disappointed maybe? Just sayin'

As critter said so well, it's hard to know, through written words, all that you mean. Tonality does come through, and to me it just seems, well, negative. But I do see you are receiving back what it seems you're putting out.

I just would suggest that maybe you consider you look at what I have jut pointed out, that from my perspective, I am seeing in you a driving need for this external validation by these folks you have put on a pedestal before you. If you keep doing that, I believe you will continually be disappointed and let down.

I think many of the folks here are willing and patient to meet you eye to eye on many things, but you can't look up to them, nor can you look down to them. I sense a little of both going on here. For example, you are openly here, admiring those who seem to be kind to you, like sky, and mocking those who seem to disagree with you, well, like me. That's what I mean! Just treat everyone the same!

Anyway, in my clumsy attempts to be helpful, I hope my points are still able to come through. Regarding me saying you were answering your own questions, please understand I am not being condescending. My read through this thread is, you answer your own questions in defense of your right to ask the questions. I guess tomorrow when I have more time and energy I can cut and paste quote and all that stuff, to illustrate what I mean, but you need to understand that I was saying that because you already hold the answers to the things you ask. I am not mocking you. I am trying to help you.

I think everyone through both these threads is too. Everyone has a different way about them. When you dig a little deeper past the words on your screen, there is a human being on the other end, and like you they have feelings. And, many of these folks are picking up on your feelings. If you can recirprocate at that level, a lot of the anger would go away, in my opinion.

But then, that's just me. I do wish you well.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 20, 2012, 06:33:48 am
Many of you have just said kind things, and I thank you.  But many of the people on this forum are too rough for me, and the threads I started just keep going and going and going.  I keep thinking, "If I say this, they'll stop."  Then I'm disappointed because there's more posts.  Then I think, "If I say that they'll stop."  But they keep coming.  I can't handle it.  I'm drowning.  Nothing I do is right here.  Please remove my name from your member list.  I can read your posts without being a member.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: clearwater on June 20, 2012, 08:36:13 am
Speaking again for myself, I personally don't have great wisdom to impart to you. Well, none that you would not already know. All I do is try to apply common sense (which is uncommon these days) and see what happens from there.

As one who has launched his own threads on other internet forums that I wish I hadn't, (I can tell you from my own experience) you need to understand that sometime once you launch these boats, these threads, they may take on a life of their own you did not intend. It more or less reflects the realty of humanity, that you can't control or direct the thoughts or feelings of another. You can only control your own thoughts and feelings. And that alone would be enough. The world needs more of this, you agree?

What I have found, when I find myself in these situations, is that an apology can do wonders to heal. If you don't feel that inside you then you probably will respond negatively to what I just said. But when you have, as you say, tried saying this or that -- which you certainly have the right to do I suppose --  I don't see any contrition or any self-reflection on your part. You know, maybe, just maybe, your way of presenting yourself can be perceived as a tad aggressive, can be perceived as demeaning of others, and can be perceived as a bit angry. I'm not saying that you are this way as a human being, in real life, and clearly your participation is causing you stress, so it is what it is. So what are you really like? I don't know the answer to that yet. It's really not for me to decide, but it is for me to witness.

So again, for me, once I learn that I have stepped to some doo doo I didn't mean to, once I see that and understand that, then I always issue an apology if I believe I have been wrong or wronged another. I don't mind admitting if I am wrong, I don't like being wrong, but I am far from perfect and at many levels, I am a baby pooping in diapers. Here in this thread I apologized to you for misunderstanding your thread title. My bad.

Time off may do some good it certainly will not hurt you. May I suggest that during your down time, you consider, maybe, clearing your mind and opening your heart, just a little more, and re-read these threads through the eyes of others instead of only through your own eyes, and you may see them in a different light. My guess is you may just see kindness, and even a paternal kind of frustrated love, behind the harshness. And if you do, you will see the reason for the reception of your perception.  (Wow that sounds like it could be the title to a song or something.)

It's there if you (take another) look.  In my opinion, of course.

= = = = = = =

Quote
Hi clearwater!  I assume you’re Native?  Hello.  I’m very happy to meet you.  This is exciting.  How would you like to be called?

Gwaewael, it's hard for me to tell if you are being facetious here or simply didn't fully read my earlier post when I stated:

Quote
I am neither Indian, or Buddhist. But I find a lot of the jokes to be wry humor, but that's just me

... so I am just repeating it here for your benefit.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: earthw7 on June 20, 2012, 12:55:46 pm
I think for it is a cultural difference when you dont know each person culture a person then makes those mistakes,
Native always have humor when writing of talking, some people get offended by our humor but it is the way we are.
even in our sacred ceremonies we make fun of each other or laugh because we believe that nothing is too sacred for
laughter it is grift from the creator.
each person has lesson to learn and sometime we tend not look at the lesson our brain tells us they are mean to me
so we never learn the lesson, Somewhere people started the myth that all Natives are these peace loving people
when we are warriors first, When fighting for our right to live; our right to pray; our right to exist; we tend to say
things it is not our intent to hurt people feeling it is our intend to save what is ours ;D
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: clearwater on June 20, 2012, 02:56:17 pm

Gwaewael, you stated that...

Quote
 I can't handle it.  I'm drowning.  Nothing I do is right here.

So I'm going to take your metaphor and run with it for a moment...

I am sorry if I may seem flip here. But my read through all these threads is (and I understand your sense of being overwhelmed) it seems to me, you have been thrown a few life preservers along the way. No need to drown.

What I see is, I suppose, you can choose to hold onto hurt feelings and feel like you are drowning, or you can take ahold of a life preserver that's been thrown your way quite a few folks, and be open to the help that's offered. It's just that maybe the help is coming in forms you didn't foresee or expect. Sometime help comes only when you are receptive to it, in forms you could never have predicted...

When it comes to emotional health and well being, the metaphor is not lost. It's kind of like that, sink or swim. Growth happens as you let thing go and open yourself up to something else. And it can be scary as hell. Or not. I've heard that drowning can actually be pretty peaceful... after the freaking out part runs its course ...

To take ahold, you need to let go of a few feelings, and maybe a few notions, that's all. That's kind of what I see going on here, described through your own metaphor. I'm sorry, but that's how I see it. I don't mean to be flip or be speaking with authority or status I may not or don't have.

But then again, I'm a would-be hippie wannabe Indian newage reject so what the hell do I know? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain LOL.

(http://donmillereducation.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/windows-7-life-preserver.jpg)

Anyway, I hope I have mitigated my own harsh words to you. Just tryin' to help...
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 20, 2012, 04:10:55 pm
Hi clearwater!  Thanks for your comforting words.  I now want everyone here to know I'm mentally ill.  I was planning on keeping it a secret, but now I think it might be better to say it.  You guys are really rough.  Scientic tests on people like me show that parts of my brain are smaller than they're supposed to be.  Those functions don't work.  For one thing I have problems with memory.  As an example, I was in a dance group for three years, and I would review everyone's names regularly because I was having problems remembering, but I still had difficulty thinking of some of their names even after THREE YEARS of working at it.  Some people here want me to remember they've said, "I'm Native" or "I'm non-native" in a passing comment.  I've been accused of not reading their posts because I don't remember these comments.  I just don't remember things well.  I literally can't remember what I did yesterday.  I assume you all remember what you did yesterday.  It's also known that people like me keep reacting over and over to the same stimulus, where a normal person would stop reacting and calm down.  Here there's been one critial post after another.  I've just been crying and crying and crying.  I can't stop.  Someone wondered if I was being rude when I said, "Are you Native?  Hello.  I'm happy to meet you."  Yes, that does sound dumb.  No, what I meant was, "Hello.  I'm happy to meet you."  I feel privileged to meet someone Native.  I was imagining that I was meeting them in person and shaking hands.  That's what I would like to do.  And I can't possibly be as horrible, rude, and privileged-thinking as people are saying.  In fact I know I'm not.  The one Indian I have met in person talked to my husband later (they work together) and said, "I just met your wife.  She's a sweet-heart."  If you want to know what tone I'm using when I'm writing, I started out being friendly and sometimes now I’m angry.  By the way, for the person who bolded the words, "you people", it's a mid-western plural "you", like "y'all" in the south.  I also use, "you guys" in the same situations.

So go ahead, everyone.  Attack every word I just said.  I think an easy start would be to refuse to listen to what I'm saying and claim that I'm just making excuses.  Who's first?
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 20, 2012, 04:33:11 pm
Oh, and I'm referring to the only Native I know by the generic word "Indian" because he might think his tribal affiliations are private.  I would need his permission to list them on a public forum.

I wonder, will some creative person figure out how to attack me on THAT comment?
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: snorks on June 20, 2012, 04:45:42 pm
I do have a brain injury (traumatic) and am having problems with following any of this discussion. 

However, I do think that sometimes just stepping back and just letting the thing be is a good thing. 
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: earthw7 on June 20, 2012, 04:46:07 pm
I am sorry but i did not see one person attack you, what is seen is many people trying to explain cultural difference ???
Now we know that you are ill so i will put you in my prayer list for the day for healing,
I will try to explain a little: This is not being mean to you it is explaining:
Correcting a person is not wrong, it is being helpful so i see so many people trying to be helpful
to explain to you the difference in cultural ways,
I think you getting defensive so too fast maybe in your life time you had to be like that
but in our cultural way we usually listen to what is being said to see if their is a lesson in it for us to live better.
When dont read the whole post and get to a part where you feel that someone is condemning you
instead of explaining to you difference you brain shut down and then instead of a lesson it is about how you feel
and you never get to the lesson part because your mind wont let you because your struck in the emotions part
To understand all that is being said here one must take it as a lesson because at times you are talking
about another people's culture in which most people do not understand.  Person can only see the
world from the culture they grew up in unless they open their mind.
Everyone here is constanly put up whether of not they are Native because they understand
that if they are not they can not speak for us and we give thanks to those who do that and
respect us as a people. You will see it is almost all the post no matter who people are communicating with,
if you met a native person they would tell you who they are by their band nation and family it is
a culture thing that happens. You dont have to remember who is native and who is not people will remind you though all the post as a respect thing.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 20, 2012, 04:55:22 pm
I have issues with face recognition. When I watched that tv show Heroes it took half way through before I could tell the three men with dark hair apart.

Anyway, I hope you take some time and re-read when it's not so "present". Maybe in 6 months. You may
see things differently. I haven't seen anyone attacking you. Just asking, communicating.

Maybe take time to think that the people asking don't understand, so they're asking, instead of taking it as an attack.




Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Sad-Old-Druid on June 20, 2012, 05:43:20 pm
Hello Gwaewael

Please stay. This is a good healthy place. I do not think you will find better.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: nemesis on June 20, 2012, 08:11:53 pm
Gwaewael

I hope you don't mind me saying this but the way you are reacting to people in this threads reminds me a lot of how I used to be some years ago after I experienced a series of traumatic losses and traumas.

I don't know if you can relate to this but, at the time when I was extremely vulnerable and traumatised sometimes some days were worse than others and my stress and depression reached unbearable levels.

On an especially bad day when, for example. I had an insane amount of work to do and not enough time to do it in I would start a thread on an internet forum that would kind of go the way this one has gone.  It would make my entire day traumatic and I would spend a lot of time posting frantically and feeling misunderstood by others.  The result was that, while my situation was worse in the long run, in the short term I at least had a massive distraction from all the thoughts and memories that I didn't want to think about or remember.

In retrospect I realise that I was recreating the type of traumatic events (at least in my mind) that I was trying to run away from.

Maybe this makes no sense at all to you and I've got the wrong end of the stick, but I was just wondering whether this might be something you can relate to?

edited to add

I'm a person who makes a lot of mistakes.  I am in some ways very clever and in some very stupid.  I have some unusual fields of knowledge that many people don't know about, but at the same time I do not know all there is to know about my specialist subjects. It took me a long time to learn some basic truths; that it is OK not to know everything, it is OK to make mistakes, even it is OK to be a flawed person who is not good all of the time.  I just do the best I can to do the right thing and learn from my mistakes.

I mention this because I think you come across as someone who is very hard on yourself for making mistakes and I sense that this is why you might feel so attacked when other people ask you stuff. 

People here do not require you to know everything.  On the contrary an attitude of humble interest and respectful curiosity is, IME, welcomed.  All of us here have made mistakes at some point and nobody is perfect. 

I understand that you feel threatened and put down but I do not think that this was anyone's intention.  I hope that you can stick around and get to know people.

my advice would be to not be in a hurry about the process. Take you time to get to know people naturally and with no strain and no big worry about making a mess of things.  If someone corrects you about something they are not telling you off just trying to help you to understand things that you might have misunderstood.

I hope that you feel comfortable to stick around long enough to really know people here as they are generally a knowledgeable, interesting and caring community of people.  :)





Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: clearwater on June 20, 2012, 08:25:11 pm
Hey Gwaewael--

See? There was an ulterior reason for your coming here. That is not a judgment, it's an observation. I appreciate your post, your honesty, and the courage it took to step up and say that, what you said n your last few posts...

It's a little funny because my computer keeps doing things to me. I saw your post much earlier and actually typed in a very lengthy reply, then hit the wrong button and *poof* it was gone. That's the second time that's happened to me in composing replies to you. Seeing how it's my computer that brought me here to begin with, I figure I'll just let all that lead the way LOL. So, I just let it be, figuring someone else would be the first to step up ... and not tear into you ... but offer some comfort, if that's what you want to call it. I think I feel enough about this forum to know that you would be treated fairly.

Mental illness ... I suppose I could print some membership cards, and you and I can be charter members of our own club. I have demons too, and I deal with them how I deal with them. I am a work in progress, and it seems you are too. Truth be told, the entire world is nuts these days, and there are no real excuses.

Remember stuff? Heck, I have issues there too. I literally forget a person's name as soon as the sound of their name leaves their lips, as I 'm still shaking their hand. For some reason, in my life, that part of my brain was never developed. I have come to accept that about myself, and I joke with folks that my brain is made of swiss cheese, because it has all those air pockets in it too!

The only way you can believe that folks here have attacked you, is only because you attack yourself inside. It's simply not possible that you can see this outside of yourself unless it's inside of your self, to be seen. Something is eating you up inside and that's why you are here. I don't think you knew that when you came here. But I think you're getting a sense of this now. It has nothing to do with what Indians are called, or whether you did the right thing in sending an email. Those were your self-prescribed tickets in the door, that's all. I just think you didn't see that yourself.

I too don't see anyone attacking you as a person, I do see a lot of reacting to how you seem to be presenting yourself up to this point. With your last few posts, I see that the dynamic has changed. Healing can begin, but it begins with you. This is a good thing. The wheel in you has turned, just a little, but it has moved. I see that. What you do with that is up to you.

I don't think you are going to be chewed up here, as long as you remain authentic to your self. When you came into these forums, you were cloaked in something else, presenting your questions and feelings as topics when in truth, you were here for another reason, even if you didn't know that at a conscious level. It seems to me, you have taken a step here in this thread, the dynamic has changed, in a good way, and that your true intentions and questions are coming to the front now.

Let me offer to you that Life is benevolent and it's good. The folks here I do feel a part of in a small sort of way, and I think the reasons I feel that way have been expressed very well in this thread by others here. There is a kindness and a love to be found if you're open to it, but only you can do that. I don't need to pontificate anymore than I already have. I feel my participation with you in this thread has helped to crack the shell for you, so to speak. It's all good, no one here wishes you any ill will, I just do not see that. In fact, I see the very opposite. I see folks wishing you well, and good will, in this and the other thread, but you know, if you're thick skulled and thick skinned, it does get kinda old I can only imagine, for the regulars of this forum too.

I too don't wish to see you go, but I don't know you, and all I can offer is that. My feeling is, your journey has just begun. I wish you well. And I mean that literally.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 20, 2012, 09:03:40 pm
Hello earthw7.  Thank you for including me in your prayer list for the day for healing.  I need it.  Thank you for your post.  What you wrote me was very kind.

I’m trying to figure out what the other people are trying to teach me here, but I can’t learn it the way they’re presenting it.  They’re being too harsh with me; I can’t learn.  They have to be gentle.  I’m ill and their methods are hurting me.  If there were a deaf person, they would have to teach them differently than the other people.

I have no past experiences that would make me easily angered.  I’m not considered an angry person.  I’ve never been treated badly like this before.  In my culture being treated this way is considered abusive.  I’ve shown this forum to two other white people, and they agreed with me.  It’s abusive.  What kind of lessons are the people on this forum trying to teach me?  I have no idea.  I read every post very carefully and I have no clue.  What do you even mean by a lesson?  Is there maybe a cultural difference in what types of learning are called lessons?  Before you can teach me any lessons, you may first have to explain what a lesson is.

Thank you for saying I don’t have to remember who is native and who is not, and that people will respect me by reminding me in their posts.  My memory is very bad.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: nemesis on June 20, 2012, 09:26:49 pm
I am genuinely sorry if my post upset you.  I was not attacking you and did not intend to hurt you.

I am white by the way.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 20, 2012, 09:40:34 pm
Hi,

Well, again, I can only speak for myself on what a lesson is. Because really,
these things are quite personal, at least in my opinion (imo).  :)

When I first came to this board, what I found I was being taught was an entirely
different view of the world. One that comes from the eyes of people who have
never known "privilege". In fact, I didn't even know I was privileged or "white
privilege" as it is called.

So, I did some google searches on it and read different accounts from different
people, bloggers, whoever. Because, well, I'm the kind of person who likes to
hear from all sides of the issue in order to grasp from different angles of view point.
Because I can't trust my own view point when it comes to Native issues, such as
"white privlege".. Why?

Well, because I'm not Native. I haven't grown up in their culture or been around
a reservation to know what it is like. My view point is one that looks in from the
outside, and sees only the surface. Which, is not truth. Because the surface is
only a reflection of my own preconceptions, or those of the people around me, or who've
said things to me based on their own view, which again, is from the outside looking
at the surface of something and never seeing anything but a reflection of their
thoughts. Think of it like a pond, and the surface is a reflection of you looking in.
You don't see what anyone it is talking about, all you can see is your own reflection.
So, you get a couple other people who look, and they see what you see, naturally.
Because they too, are only looking at their own reflections and not seeing beyond that.

So, one lesson to think about, or on, is that what is being said to you here, is
coming from beneath the surface of what you have perceived or known thus far
of Native peoples and culture. It is not what you may have thought, or thought
that you knew. So it comes at you as very foreign, and then you feel lost or
attacked because you don't know what it's about. Such as believing it is abusive.

Since you are mingling with people from a culture and view of life that you have
never known before, it's going to take a beating on what you've always known or
believed beforehand. This may seem like an attack by the people here, but it is not.
It is simply knocking through the walls that have been built, through no fault really,
of anyone except that this world is quite f'd up.

So, a lesson may be, possibly, to try and put your view aside. Take the people here
at their word, if they say they are not attacking you, believe them. And realize that
what you are feeling is something else, maybe the reflection will waver a bit and you'll
get a glimpse into the pond and see something you didn't see before.

Also, realize that you are not the first person to be here and not understand. Nor was
I. This forum has been here for years. Many of the people here have been here for years.
They seen this time and again, it is not new for them. It is new for you. No one intends
to treat you badly or abuse you.

Again, perspective is very important and if you cling to only what you see, then that's all
you'll ever see of this forum, and of the world. And believe me, there is so much more in life,
everywhere, than simply what you or I or anyone sees from their own personal view, belief,
mindset.

So.. what is a lesson? A lesson is anything that anyone can learn from. And everything
everyone has posted here has been an opportunity for you to learn something from. It
is not school where you are told what to learn from the lesson. It's not that kind of lesson.
It's a different kind of lesson. No one can tell you what to learn from the lesson, or what
even, the lesson is, again, imo. I'm not trying to be vague or give you riddles, but see,
that's part of the world you grew up in. Where lessons are things that we are given while
being told what it is we are supposed to learn and what the lesson is.

That's part of the reflection I was talking about early. You don't know this kind of lesson,
so all you can see is "lesson" in the way you were taught it, and being presented with this
kind of lesson is lost to you. You don't know what it means, you can't see it. It's frustrating.

So, perhaps just put it in the back of your mind and know that you don't understand it because
the reflection of what you do know, or believe you know is blocking you from seeing beneath
the surface. It's because of your limitations that you don't understand, not anyone else. And
by "limitations" I mean of your view, that of the world you were taught to view. I do not mean
anything about you "personally". 

This is not an attack, or a put down. So please don't take it that way.

I hope this made sense..



Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 20, 2012, 10:10:48 pm
Hi snorks!  I’m sorry to hear about your traumatic brain injury and that you’re having problems following this discussion.  Thanks for sharing this with us.  People with brain problems are often made to feel ashamed.  Are you worried that you have to hide your condition?  I am.  Thanks for speaking up.

Hi critter!  I have the face thing too!  (For those who don’t know, we’re talking about a difficulty in learning or remembering faces.  You run into people you know who look like complete strangers.  Some say, “Hello”  in a tone that implies you know them, and you don’t know what to say.  They look like strangers!  Since you have difficulty recognizing people by their faces, you often recognize them by other features, like their hair color, etc.)

critter, have you ever tried watching Platoon?  It’s a movie about a bunch of people all the same sex (men) mostly all the same age (young), all with identical hair (buzz cut, no apparent hair color), mostly all belonging to the same race (white), all wearing the same clothing (army outfit), and all located in the same setting (a jungle).  You had to get them by their faces alone and there was AN ENTIRE PLATOON of them!  I never learned to spot any character at all, not even the lead.  Now, though, I’ve learned to recognize the faces of the major actors from seeing other movies.

Hi Sad-Old-Druid!  Thanks for asking me to stay!  That's very encouraging.  It's truly sweet.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: clearwater on June 20, 2012, 10:22:33 pm
Oh gee, Gwaewael, you didn't mention me. I suppose I should take that personally. I'm sure it was an honest oversight. I'm a sensitive person. I might get my feelings hurt, you know? I too am mentally ill. In case you missed that point. I suppose I mentioned hippie or something, now you ignore me. Shunned. Should I be offended? It depends on what I choose to follow.

I will offer you a simple but powerful technique that will help considerably with your understanding of what is going on here. You need to take the leap from the word read on paper, to hearing these words aloud. This technique is very simple, powerful and can help you, in my opinion. Take it and use it, or don't.

For this technique, you will need to get the help of someone in your life who you have positive feelings for and can trust to be truthful and honest with you, such as a minister, friend, someone in your life who you know will be truthful with you, even with things you don't wish to hear. The technique I am about to tell you won't work if you find someone who will only agree with you on everything. You don't need more self-validation of your feelings.

Print out these threads, and have that person read them to you, out loud. The spoken word you hear has a very different power and impact that the word you read from a page. The ears are a more direct path to the heart, that the brain is, which has to process the information... Having these words read to you will bypass your brain and the information will go directly to your mind, and filter on to your heart. Then, you will find, I believe, you have been listening to the wrong things.

I am not a practitioner of any medicine or anything like that. As I read through you, this occurred to me as something that will help you to open your heart and stop closing your mind. That is not an attack, or judgment, or anything like that. It is not, because I am the one who wrote these words, and I am telling you it is not.

In making these posts, all I am doing is being true to myself. If that offends, oh well. Sorry about that.

Again, I wish you well.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 21, 2012, 04:17:17 am
Hi clearwater!  I’m not ignoring you!  It’s just that I’m new to posting.  I took so long to write my posts that other people beat me to it.  I didn’t know.  I just answered the few posts I knew about in order, answering earthw7 first.  Now the posts on the thread are all out of order and the thread doesn‘t flow.  It’s kind of jarring to read.

I’ve been losing a lot of my computer messages lately too.  I think it’s synchronicity.  (I’m New Age.)  Maybe you believe in this also.  Now I compose my posts for this forum on a word processing document where they won’t get lost, then I copy them to the forum.  I’m sorry you’ve lost lengthy messages to me.  Thank you for rewriting this one.  (And maybe the other one.)  You’re right.  Your computer led you well.  People have been offering me some comfort, and I’ve been treated fairly.

Thank you for telling me about your mental illness.  I’m bipolar.  Can I ask what you are?  Actually, I think there are excuses.  (We don’t need to discuss it.)

I’m from Wisconsin.  Cheese is our big thing.  I really like your Swiss cheese brain joke.  I can use it.

I joined this forum to defend Starhawk.  That was my agenda.  I thought I’d make a few posts, wait for the comments to come in on her, read them, then leave.  But I got waylaid by the responses on etcetera.  There was nothing deep or mysterious about my coming here on my part, unless it was my destiny?  Well, maybe it was.  I might sometime need to persuade some Ho Chunks that I’ve never met to take a certain unusual action.  If they’re suspicious, I could find myself needing to explain that I’m an eclectic neopagan, but not THAT kind of eclectic neopagan.  (I can proudly state that I’ve never taken part in a sweat lodge, gone on a vision quest, done a pipe ceremony or a sun dance, worked with a medicine wheel, or been to a healing circle.  You name it, I haven’t done it.)

I’m sorry, I disagree with you.  People can hurt each other.  While you can learn to some extent not to be hurt by others, you can’t do it completely.  So people should treat each other well.  I can improve, but I’m not super-human.

How can anyone say no one has attacked me here when I was called a “white bloated pig”?  (It’s OK, critter, I’m laughing.  I’ve been picturing a white bloated pig lately floating over a concert crowd, because I went to a Pink Floyd concert and saw their pink pig doing that.)  But what’s all this about people reacting to how I present myself?  Why did I get that “wow!!”?  I’m truly stumped.   It’s nice of you to say that my wheel has turned a little bit, but really I haven’t changed that I‘ve noticed.  I said I was going to leave (I was) and then I decided to stay and beg for mercy, because people started to treat me better.  I thought there was some hope then.  Everybody else seems to be changing.

My original posts were on topics I care about.  I DID actually want people to stop using “NDN” in favor of “Indian”.  (That’s just weird.  Let it drop.)  I WAS actually worried about my email and wanted help with it.  I guess I’m as strange as I seem.  My one devious reason for posting was to get attention.  And those topics were actually what was on my mind.  That was it.  I didn’t have anything better to say.  Isn’t wanting attention authentic?  I mean, if that’s where you are?  (Go on, have a field day with this one.)

This whole post has been very kind.  Thank you for wanting to crack the shell for me.


Hi clearwater!  (Second post)

Your technique sounds very powerful.  I’m afraid to use it currently.  (I’m afraid of what I would find out about myself.)  I'll continue to give it thought.  I don’t feel attacked or judged that you made this suggestion.  You said everything very well.

I wish you well.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 21, 2012, 04:19:12 am
I'll be answering some other posts later.  There are quite a few.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on June 21, 2012, 05:12:40 am
LOL  it was an attack, at the time I was pretty livid with you and I wanted
to make you open your eyes..  I apologized for it. I'm really not a nasty mean person..

There's nothing wrong with wanting attention as long as your honest about it, and
don't take offense when someone calls on it and asks you to sit down for a bit, imo. :)

Thanks for coming clean and admitting your first motives for being here.

And there is no rush here. If you're overwhelmed, come back and reply in a couple days
no one will care if you don't reply immediately.. or if you reply 3 weeks from now.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: clearwater on June 21, 2012, 06:41:15 am
Well Gwaewael that's all cool. I did not wish to overstep my boundaries with you. I know words have power. For some reason or another, I have the gift of words (blessing and a curse all wrapped up in one), and for some reason or another, I clicked my way into your thread quite by accident. So yeah, there is something to synchronicity.

For what it's worth (FWIW), my ex-wife is from Wisconsin. And, at least one (maybe more) of the folks participating in this thread with you, is from Wisconsin. So it's not like we're aliens from Mars. Well ... *I* might be from Mars, but I can't speak for the rest LOL. But you have to admit, Wisconsin is pretty out there in space (just kidding).

Cheese. And beer. And Root Beer (I drank the real A&W Root Beer in Wisconsin, it's the real deal). And cows, Lots and lots of cows. And all "yous" guys .... eh? I think I got that nailed.

Maybe it's me, Gwaewael, but I detect a change in your tone, and I like it. But again, maybe it's just me.

If it's okay with you, I'll step out of this thread now, and maybe check in now and then. I lurk (just hang out and read without commenting) more than I post here, and I don't come here all that much. I have the highest regard and respect for the folks who make up this forum, and as I said before, I do feel a part of this place in my own small way. Even you have something positive to contribute ultimately to the whole body of understanding. I just hope I am correct in my sense that you are being sincere.

All I would add to this on my way out the door here, is that this forum is primarily about weeding out fraudulent activity, you know, those folks who rob a culture and try to profit from it. It's not really a board for mental and spiritual healing, although no one is going to not let that happen here. Usually, that unfolds itself. And as critter pointed out, there are a lot of folks who come here with hidden agendas, for whatever reason, and sometimes with a chip on their shoulder. Sometimes not. I'm glad you are receptive to all this, or at least seem so to me.

Blessings.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: clearwater on June 21, 2012, 06:59:12 am
Quote
   I said I was going to leave (I was) and then I decided to stay and beg for mercy, because people started to treat me better.  I thought there was some hope then.  Everybody else seems to be changing. 

I would just add, that I respectfully disagree with you. The only change I see here, is in you. But as I say, maybe it's just me seeing that.

Thanks for participating.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: earthw7 on June 21, 2012, 02:04:39 pm
Everyone here is just human beings that care about protection of Cultures,
Human Beings is what we all want to be, as our people say not everyone is
a human being that we must move toward it everyday, A human being is someone
with compassion, understanding and love for the people.
My daughter is Bipolar so i understand
Lesson in life what are they????
1. To be able to listen with a open heart
2. To understand the worlds view is very different in different cultures
3. That you can not speak for another people or nation
4. That some time a person must take two step back and look at themselves
5. Healing is what my culture is about
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 21, 2012, 04:31:17 pm
Thank you, so much everyone.  Kathyrn has just told me that many people want me to leave this forum.  As usual, I don't know what my crime was, so I'll just go (if I can figure out how to end my membership).
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Gwaewael on June 21, 2012, 04:34:22 pm
Hi critter!  I'm sorry to write this message here.  The screen kept saying the private message wasn't going through.

Thanks for being so kind.  That makes me feel much better.

So I'm going to just step down peacefully.  This forum is making me physically sick anyway.  Life will be a lot easier.

I WAS looking forward to answering your post.  I liked your analogy of seeing just a mirror instead of what's real.

Thanks again for your kind message.

Gwaewael
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: snorks on June 21, 2012, 05:41:28 pm
In answer to your question about my brain injury - unfortunately for me, it is most public, since I have seizures a lot.  That makes me fair game for con artists and other "shameons" who want to "heal" me for a price.  This board has helped a lot in steering away from those folks and focus on what is 'doable' such as seeing my MD, etc.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Defend the Sacred on June 21, 2012, 05:56:49 pm
I might sometime need to persuade some Ho Chunks that I’ve never met to take a certain unusual action.  If they’re suspicious, I could find myself needing to explain...

Right. I think that's pretty clear.
Title: Re: Do I have this right?
Post by: Sparks on August 21, 2019, 12:39:11 am
A very confusing thread. If anyone wonders what happened further, a new topic started the next day, and that thread is still, in many ways, a very interesting read:

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3750.0 [APOLOGIES]

I will quote two posts, the last one has references to three other relevant threads:

As some of you may or not know that Gwaewael person has been banned. Because of her racist, insulting and abhorrent behavior she was politely asked to leave and mechanisms have been put in place so she cannot re-register or come back in any capacity. I for one am finally breathing a sigh of relief. But the real reason I'm posting is my utter disgust at all the white people who rallied around that batcrap crazy white woman. I am outraged at your behavior and some of you who haven't even posted here in a couple of years were encouraging that heinous white devil to not go away after she spewed her racist diatribes and had childish melt downs. I won't name names but you know who you are. You callous and entitled white people owe all the Indians on this forum an official apology. I hope all you white people take a long look at your actions these past few days and really think about how you have hurt the Indians on this forum.

Epilogue:

I am bumping this thread and am going to link to it from the "How to be an Ally" post as I think it's instructive.

This was pretty much the last thread in what some of us have come to call, The NAFPS Race War of 2012. It took place over a few threads, most of them linked below. While it was stressful and exasperating, I think we also had some good discussion of white privilege, along with some illustrative examples. Here's how it started:

Member Intros - Gwaewael - http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3739.0

The word "Indian" is much maligned. - http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3741.0

Do I have this right? - http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3744.0