NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: menotomy on January 16, 2012, 12:38:39 am
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Why would anyone give significance to the fact that some group is, or is not, part of a “Federally Recognized Tribe”?
That is a political distinction. It should be ignored in my opnion.
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Perhaps your question may be answered here:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1.0
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In addition to the info linked to by Ingeborg (thanks :) ) we have threads on fake tribes. Fake tribes do a lot of harm when they scam people, promote stereotypes, or participate in cultural genocide by teaching inaccurate things. We also find that many pretendians and shameons ally themselves with the fake tribes, because the real ones won't have them.
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Man I’ve got to get up to speed on names like pretendians and shameons.
I’ve read that link (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1.0) a few times already.
I guess I understand the fake tribe angle, but imposters align themselves with ‘real’ tribes, too.
My point is my discomfort with the number of smaller tribes which are somehow depreciated because they are not ‘recognized’ by some anglo-based political structure.
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Man I’ve got to get up to speed on names like pretendians and shameons.
I’ve read that link (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1.0) a few times already.
I guess I understand the fake tribe angle, but imposters align themselves with ‘real’ tribes, too.
My point is my discomfort with the number of smaller tribes which are somehow depreciated because they are not ‘recognized’ by some anglo-based political structure.
Hi menotomy and welcome to the forum, could you please be a little more specific on the smaller tribes you are talking about? Such as they're names and what area they're from? And who is this "anglo-based" political structure you're talking about?
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
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I have a thought that may be incorrect thinking regarding the fakes and all
the new age creeps who take the wee tiny bit they know and kindle it into
some made up ceremony and call it "Native"..
My thought is this: Although it sucks, and many people are misled, in the
end it is helping true Indian Peoples to keep their real ceremony private
and sacred. They (shameons and pretendians) can play with the fake stuff,
they will harm people unfortunately, but the real ceremonies are not "out there"
in the hands of these people.. and the more they pass on these fake made up
ceremonies, the more the real ceremonies are protected..
I don't condone it, and I feel bad for all the people being duped and of course,
I hate that they use various tribes names to make profit.. but the real ceremonies
are kept with the real people, and no one knows those except the people to who
they belong and who they choose to share them with..
Does any of this make sense or am I just off..
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Why would anyone give significance to the fact that some group is, or is not, part of a “Federally Recognized Tribe”?
That is a political distinction. It should be ignored in my opnion.
A Federally "Recognized Tribe" is one that has a State to State relationship with the Federal Gov. thereby granting them certain benefits. Some examples but not an all inclusive are money, fishing/hunting rights, casino plus inclusion in certain programs not available to non tribal people (Indian Health service) ETC. There are also blood quantum requirements in some descent in others. Example: Lakota require 1/4 blood, correct me if I am incorrect, Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma (CNO) requires only that you can show direct lineal descent from the Dawes Roll. They must also be able to prove that they have been in a certain geographical area from a set time in history as an interrelated community.
State recognized tribes have a State to State relationship with the chartering state but not with the federal Gov. Citizens of a state tribe usually but not all ways can't meet the all the requirements of a Federal Tribe. Example: A man age 30 born full blood Cherokee of Eastern Band if he was not registered before age three or at age eighteen cannot be a citizen. (Not sure this may have been changed) Can't be CNO not descended form Dawes Roll member. Dare anyone call him not Cherokee?
Because of the MONEY angle a Federal Card among some has become a tell all and end all of "Indianess". There are many many people of mixed heritage out there and while I believe it good to recognize one's ancestors one needs to approach this with care, honor, respect and correct knowledge of the culture. If your people didn't do a Lakota Pipe ceremony why in the name of all that's Holy should you feel that it's for you? Written to the best of my knowledge if I am incorrect please correct. Offered with respect and honor "LittleOldMan"
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Hi menotomy and welcome to the forum, could you please be a little more specific on the smaller tribes you are talking about? Such as they're names and what area they're from? And who is this "anglo-based" political structure you're talking about?
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
In my area (Massachusetts) only the Wampanoags are listed (http://www.bia.gov/WhoWeAre/BIA/OIS/TribalGovernmentServices/TribalDirectory/index.htm).
By "anglo-based" political structure, I’m referring to the people and the process by which a group becomes “recognized”.
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Quote from: Diana on January 17, 2012, 02:35:52 am
Hi menotomy and welcome to the forum, could you please be a little more specific on the smaller tribes you are talking about? Such as they're names and what area they're from? And who is this "anglo-based" political structure you're talking about?
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
In my area (Massachusetts) only the Wampanoags are listed (http://www.bia.gov/WhoWeAre/BIA/OIS/TribalGovernmentServices/TribalDirectory/index.htm).
By "anglo-based" political structure, I’m referring to the people and the process by which a group becomes “recognized”.
LOL, thanks for the even more cryptic and vague answers. Funny, it's what you don't say that speaks volumes.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
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Pawtucket, Nipmuc, Wamesit, Musketaquid, Pennacook or even Massachusett.
None “Recognized”. Though these are people who are the seeds of many others, their “recorded” history starts in the 1600s and they fall off the charts after that.
I’m not sure what you are implying by your response but my impression leaves me believing this is some kind of bullshit sandbox.
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Pawtucket, Nipmuc, Wamesit, Musketaquid, Pennacook or even Massachusett.
None “Recognized”. Though these are people who are the seeds of many others, their “recorded” history starts in the 1600s and they fall off the charts after that.
I’m not sure what you are implying by your response but my impression leaves me believing this is some kind of bullshit sandbox.
I'm sorry you feel that way and I wasn't sure what you were implying with your vague and generalized statements. That's why I politely asked you a couple of questions to get a better understanding and we both know you gave me "bullshit" answers. If you don't like being asked questions on an open forum then don't post.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
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As a federal recogized tribal member from a large land base tribal nation
what it means is we have a treaty (1851 Fort Laramie Treaty and 1868 Fort Laramie Treaty)
signed with the United States so we have a nation to nation status, that means we are a nation.
No one made us a nation we just are a nation and have always been.
Some tribe did not sign treaties as nations the US government did not make us
Federally recogized we were recogized by our treaty if you can understand
the way that works, we did not go though a progess to be recogized we just are.
That means we have always had a government structure, language, culture, spirituality
and a way of life that has not been interrupted.
The 590 Federally Recogized Tribe and
The State Redcogized Tribes
Chappquiddick Tribe of the Wampanog Indian Nation
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Pawtucket, Nipmuc, Wamesit, Musketaquid, Pennacook or even Massachusett.
None “Recognized”. Though these are people who are the seeds of many others, their “recorded” history starts in the 1600s and they fall off the charts after that.
I’m not sure what you are implying by your response but my impression leaves me believing this is some kind of bullshit sandbox.
Menotomy, I currently live in Massachusetts. None of the above that you mentioned have continuously operated as a tribal entity. The Nipmuc have state recognition.
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Thank you, earthw7 and sky.
>>None of the above that you mentioned have continuously operated as a tribal entity
In my opinion this is totally random. Or, rather worse than random, it is simply based on when Plague or “Discovery” or Politics decided to start counting. “Federally Recognized” starts counting when this area was “Settled”.
Well before that time there were established groups, trade patterns, currencies, societies and 7,000 years of agreed upon business deals, truths, etc.
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Thank you, earthw7 and sky.
>>None of the above that you mentioned have continuously operated as a tribal entity
In my opinion this is totally random. Or, rather worse than random, it is simply based on when Plague or “Discovery” or Politics decided to start counting. “Federally Recognized” starts counting when this area was “Settled”.
Menotomy, I'm not sure where you're going with this, or where you're coming from.
If I understand what you're saying, I don't think there is anything "random" about what factors have to be present to indicate a cultural group/tribe/nation has survived intact. It's about landbase, spirituality, language, all the things Earthw7 explained.
Do you understand that being part of an intact cultural group is a different experience from being an assimilated person, from an assimilated family, who has only distant ancestry? Did you read those threads about whether BQ and enrollment matter, and what people think makes an NDN, well, NDN?
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my impression leaves me believing this is some kind of bullshit sandbox.
Can you please explain what you mean by this?
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That was in response to a poster’s comment which said:
“LOL, thanks for the even more cryptic and vague answers. Funny, it's what you don't say that speaks volumes.”
I was not giving cryptic or vague answers and I don’t know what the poster believes I’m saying or doing.
I’m still unsure of the poster’s intent though I suspect being a new member here immediately puts me in the crosshairs.
It was an unwarranted and unexpected comment. I’m a big boy, I’m not going to take it personally, but it was a surprise and disappointment.
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Menotomy, I'm not sure where you're going with this, or where you're coming from.
To summarize, I feel the designation is exclusionary, to the detriment of others.
If I understand what you're saying, I don't think there is anything "random" about what factors have to be present to indicate a cultural group/tribe/nation has survived intact. It's about landbase, spirituality, language, all the things Earthw7 explained.
I of course see the importance of being intact for the arbitrary timeframe of the most recent 400 years.
My point is that it is a politically chosen timeframe. If the timeframe was the 400 year period from say the 1200s to the 1600s, a lot more people would have this federally recognized status.
Do you understand that being part of an intact cultural group is a different experience from being an assimilated person, from an assimilated family, who has only distant ancestry? Did you read those threads about whether BQ and enrollment matter, and what people think makes an NDN, well, NDN?
You know, that is a better summary of my problem with this than I gave above.
It gives only two choices: “Federally Recognized” or “Assimilated Person”.
What about the family which retains everything except a physical location recorded in Land Court??? By the government’s decision, they’re out!
I don’t know. I’d do better complaining elsewhere. Maybe I’m not doing a good job of explaining myself. I certainly should not be feeling the need to defend myself here.
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I dont think you need to defend yourself ;D but maybe explain more clearly
what you are trying to say.
This site is not about Federally Recognized tribes, state recognized or
unreconized tribes it is about fraud.
Those who abuse spiritual, cultural identity of people for montary gain.
We have a mixture of people here some enrolled members of Tribes,
some who are not enrolled, some who have Native descent,
some other parts of the world that are concerned about
what is happening in their world.
This is not a site where one has to say
they are from a recognized tribe to speak.
We have people from all over the world who come here because people
are being hurt, misguilded, and downright mislead by people.
We must keep alist tribes because so many of the fraud will give information
that is not true and the tribe can tell what is true to keep that balance.
So for what it matter Welcome and
I am TaMakeaWaste Win enrolled member
of the Standing Rock Sioux Nation Im Ihunktonwana, Pabaska, Sisseton, on my
Father's side and Hunkpapa, Sihasapa and Ogala on my Mother's side or
as they say Im Lakota and Dakota and live on my reservation.
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That was in response to a poster’s comment which said:
“LOL, thanks for the even more cryptic and vague answers. Funny, it's what you don't say that speaks volumes.”
I was not giving cryptic or vague answers and I don’t know what the poster believes I’m saying or doing.
I’m still unsure of the poster’s intent though I suspect being a new member here immediately puts me in the crosshairs.
It was an unwarranted and unexpected comment. I’m a big boy, I’m not going to take it personally, but it was a surprise and disappointment.
Oh pleaaase, don't flatter yourself you were never in any cross hairs, that's not how we operate here. Stop with the victim act. You're right, I don't know what you're saying or doing and I'm also unsure of you're intent. Again, I politely asked you a couple of very very simple and legitimate questions. You chose to give me some vague and irrelevant answers. You basically "chose" not to answer my questions. That in it's self looks a little suspect. Again, if you don't like being asked questions don't post.
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Thank you, earthw7 and sky.
>>None of the above that you mentioned have continuously operated as a tribal entity
In my opinion this is totally random. Or, rather worse than random, it is simply based on when Plague or “Discovery” or Politics decided to start counting. “Federally Recognized” starts counting when this area was “Settled”.
Well before that time there were established groups, trade patterns, currencies, societies and 7,000 years of agreed upon business deals, truths, etc.
Please don't think I'm trying to attack you, I'm trying to understand your point and explain mine.
I am sure that some where out here in western Massachusetts there are people with Pocumtuc ancestry way back in their family history. Maybe there's a whole bunch of them. How would they operate in a tribal manner? They do not know the language of their ancestors (we do know it was Algonquin R dialect), they don't know traditions, they don't know how their tribal governments operated, they don't know their traditional stories, they don't know very much at all except for what was recorded by settlers. It's not the fault of the descendants that this occurred but it did. There are several extenuating circumstances as to why they are no longer a viable tribe. Some were absorbed by other Nations. How would it be respectful to their ancestors to call themselves members of the Pocumtuc tribe when they don't even know how to honor their ancestors?
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Thank you, earthw7 and sky.
>>None of the above that you mentioned have continuously operated as a tribal entity
In my opinion this is totally random. Or, rather worse than random, it is simply based on when Plague or “Discovery” or Politics decided to start counting. “Federally Recognized” starts counting when this area was “Settled”.
Well before that time there were established groups, trade patterns, currencies, societies and 7,000 years of agreed upon business deals, truths, etc.
so true Sky
Please don't think I'm trying to attack you, I'm trying to understand your point and explain mine.
I am sure that some where out here in western Massachusetts there are people with Pocumtuc ancestry way back in their family history. Maybe there's a whole bunch of them. How would they operate in a tribal manner? They do not know the language of their ancestors (we do know it was Algonquin R dialect), they don't know traditions, they don't know how their tribal governments operated, they don't know their traditional stories, they don't know very much at all except for what was recorded by settlers. It's not the fault of the descendants that this occurred but it did. There are several extenuating circumstances as to why they are no longer a viable tribe. Some were absorbed by other Nations. How would it be respectful to their ancestors to call themselves members of the Pocumtuc tribe when they don't even know how to honor their ancestors?