NAFPS Forum

Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: Eccentric Lady on January 09, 2011, 06:22:25 pm

Title: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: Eccentric Lady on January 09, 2011, 06:22:25 pm: I pose this question regarding potential fraud site about American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines..seems strange to me considering the feelings on the gemstones and crystals shared on my introduction page.

I do not post this to defend myself nor to be argumentative regarding the gemstones and crystals that I happen to have but honestly wish to find out if this site is a fraud.

here is a link:

American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
http://www.native-languages.org/sculpture.htm

The main page of this site has this to say, in part,
"As with many American Indian arts, there were originally many different native sculpture traditions in North America. In the Southwest, Indian sculptors carved small stone figurines in animal, human, and supernatural shapes, usually known as "storytellers" or "fetishes." Some, like Zuni fetishes, were totemic and featured inlaid eyes and heart lines; others, like Navajo storytellers, were strung together into 'fetish necklaces' that served as mnemonics for traditional stories. Pueblo artists carved figurines from clay and fired them in their pottery kilns, and the Hopi carved elaborate kachina dolls from whole cottonwood roots. In the Northwest, Indian woodcarvers are best known for their impressive totem poles and intricate bentwood boxes. The Ojibway and other northern Plains Indians carved pipes and ceremonial objects out of catlinite clay (known as pipestone). The Iroquois tribes and their distant relatives the Cherokee were known for their elaborate wooden masks, and the Algonquian peoples of the east carved staffs and bowls primarily out of tree roots. Further to the north, the Inuit ("Eskimos") carved ceremonial dance masks from wood and figurines from ivory and soapstone. Of course, since there were lively trade routes throughout native North America, even in ancient times different American Indian sculpture styles spread beyond a single tribe or culture group, and after colonization, displacement from their native lands made it hard for Indian sculptors to find their traditional materials, so fusion styles of sculpture arose. Today many contemporary Indian sculptors also use Western materials and techniques to depict native people, experiences, and themes.

If you are looking to buy sculpture, figurines, or carvings that were actually made by Native Americans--either because it's important to you to have the real thing or because you want to support native people with your purchase--then here is our list of American Indian sculptors whose carvings are available online."

Is this for real? Like I said, sounds very strange to me.

Oh, sorry if already discussed. I have to leave for work now and so will stop in later and read and read through site more when more time.
Thank you for directing me to area of discussion if already posted.
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: earthw7 on January 09, 2011, 07:34:01 pm: I guess I don't understand ??? ???

These are native artist who made the art work!
It is against the law to sell Native Art work unless you are an enrolled member
of the tribe.
Just check out the artist on the site.
This is not selling ceremonies as far as i can see.
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: earthw7 on January 09, 2011, 07:46:06 pm: Thank u for moving the site
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: Defend the Sacred on January 09, 2011, 07:47:52 pm: Native artists making traditional artwork, including carvings from wood, stone and bone, have nothing to do with the consumerist newagers who strip mine the earth for crystals.

The site contains important information for avoiding fraudulent operators, such as information on The Indian Arts and Crafts Act.

(No problem, LaDonna. Thank you for your patience in explaining things to our new members.)
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: nemesis on January 09, 2011, 07:51:06 pm: I don't understand either

???

There is a huge difference between native artists creating sculptures and other art and newage crystal skulls and various other crystal related stuff.

I cannot even find the word "crystal" on the page in your link

Why did you think that the feelings about crystals in your intro thread bore any relevance to native sculptures and other arts?
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on January 09, 2011, 08:00:12 pm: Quote from: Eccentric Lady on January 09, 2011, 06:22:25 pm
I pose this question regarding potential fraud site about American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines..seems strange to me considering the feelings on the gemstones and crystals shared on my introduction page.

EL, I'm not ndn, so I don't know what they believe of rocks, or how they
may or may not incorporate them into ceremony or art. But, I don't believe
they are strip mining them for profit without regard to Earth.

The feelings shared on your intro page had to do with the business of rock/crystal
mining for profit and for use across the planet in fantasy, which in reality
is harming Earth, not helping.

It also had to do with people who may have been on the receiving end of
generosity and kindness, invited to take part in one or another ceremony.
Who then take some bit they have no understanding of, but saw (or heard of)
and bastardize it. Then sell it making proclamations of it and their self.
Which can only be false since they honestly don't know.

It had nothing to do with artisans of peoples and their history of such
arts or ceremonies.

I hope this clears it up for you. :)
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: Eccentric Lady on January 09, 2011, 08:37:23 pm: Home for lunch then have to get back to work. Stopping in here to read more.
Maybe I need to clarify my question and reason for posting topic.

Another member posted this "in part" on my intro page:

"... that this form exists because for so many years our ways have
been abuse and misinformed about like the use of
crystals and other Gem stones, as native people we
do not allow these things in our ceremonies."

Of particular note in their comment, "like the use of
crystals and other Gem stones, as native people we
do not allow these things in our ceremonies."

So I thought that even moving crystals or even any kind of stones in any way considered bad thing to do.

Although member later mentioned,
"I honor rocks in all shape and forms
we (Native People) keep rocks in our homes, in our pockets, we feel close to rocks
as the oldest being in the world, we just don't use cystals in our ceremoniesand yes
we use rocks in a ceremonial circles and we have our reasons."

Which kind of confused me since first they said, "as native people we
do not allow these things in our ceremonies." then said, "we use rocks in a ceremonial circles and we have our reasons."

The reading comments here from critter I am clear in understanding; thank you critter.

And nemesis, thank you as well; although, fetishes carved has me confused as to why they would be okay and not a skull (so long as not crystal) or strip-mine stone? Is there somewhere I can read about what a "Zuni Fetish" or any carving of a Native American from gemstone is for?

Regarding the strip-mining. Once again, I have known about the strip mining, human exploitation and slave labors that have been made for companies to tear apart Mother Earth for a long time so stopped with the adopting "buying" of crystals and gemstones.

I will be sharing the message on another forum as well as people that I am in touch with in day to day real offline life regarding the mining so people can become informed.

But once again regarding the site; is that site for real or is it exploitation and fraud? Sorry I could not see clear answer regarding this site.

Thank you again.
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: nemesis on January 09, 2011, 09:09:43 pm: I wonder whether your confusion may stem from your extrapolating that when people talked about crystals they were also referring to all and any kinds of stones? When in fact they were not. They were just talking about crystals.

Re the use of the word "fetish" you seem to think that it might include crystal skulls, but I do not understand why you think it would.

"Fetish" can mean different things in different contexts but personally I would never have associated the word with crystal skulls. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: earthw7 on January 09, 2011, 11:07:29 pm: That was me who was trying to explain there is a difference between the concept of crystals and rocks,
we don't use them (crystal) but we do honor rocks as we do honor trees and everything around us.
We don't crystal skulls that some newagers believe in nor do we pray to rocks.

Critter has a good heart and can explain things so much better than i can.
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: Eccentric Lady on January 09, 2011, 11:58:13 pm: Quote
"Fetish" can mean different things in different contexts but personally I would never have associated the word with crystal skulls. Am I missing something?

Maybe I am the one missing something. I thought I read somewhere that "Fetish" meant any carving from stone? Must learn more about this.

Just found another site too, with regards to this and another possible fraud perhaps:
http://zunilink.com/

Again, I am interested in this since the carving of stones seem to be okay for some, not for others. Same with just taking them from where they are found to use as one wishes is wrong yet some still do this. So here I am with my questions, my mind thinking and wanting to learn to understand

Back to the gemstones, rocks and crystals; as for "honoring" rocks or praying to them, how funny that there are those that do pray to them! I certainly do not nor ever have! I have a great respect and love for all of life, from insects, reptiles, etc. and plants of every kind to the birds of the air but "idolizing" or praying to them, no way.

So am I to understand that ALL ROCKS not just crystals should be left ALONE and not messed about with in any way, right? Leave things right where they are as they are, correct?

And again have not found the answer to my question regarding the site:
http://www.native-languages.org/sculpture.htm
is that site exploitation and fraud or is it legitimate?

Thanks again for putting up with this old eccentric lady newbie here.
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: Eccentric Lady on January 10, 2011, 12:03:35 am: Okay just read back a bit and found answer-sorry for the bother!

From Kathryn - Thank you by the way;
Quote
Native artists making traditional artwork, including carvings from wood, stone and bone, have nothing to do with the consumerist newagers who strip mine the earth for crystals.

The site contains important information for avoiding fraudulent operators, such as information on The Indian Arts and Crafts Act.

So, I am going to read through this.
Also got another site to share the information about the mining of the crystals. I think word needs to get out about this especially with crazies out there promoting the use of crystals such as Crowther; (sorry, I must have been one of those crazies/eccentrics too) I am learning though, so thank you all for sharing information.
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: critter - a white non-ndn person on January 10, 2011, 12:29:35 am: Quote from: Eccentric Lady on January 09, 2011, 11:58:13 pm

Again, I am interested in this since the carving of stones seem to be okay for some, not for others. Same with just taking them from where they are found to use as one wishes is wrong yet some still do this. So here I am with my questions, my mind thinking and wanting to learn to understand

Back to the gemstones, rocks and crystals; as for "honoring" rocks or praying to them, how funny that there are those that do pray to them! I certainly do not nor ever have! I have a great respect and love for all of life, from insects, reptiles, etc. and plants of every kind to the birds of the air but "idolizing" or praying to them, no way.

So am I to understand that ALL ROCKS not just crystals should be left ALONE and not messed about with in any way, right? Leave things right where they are as they are, correct?

You do realize that this site is made up of various people who also vary in belief,
and that we are here to expose exploiters and frauds. Not to teach anyone
anything other than how to be alert to frauds and exploiters.

You can believe what you want of stones, rocks, gems, crystals, carving, mining
or whatever there is or is not to do with rocks, etc.

--

Thanks earthw7 .. sometimes seems like another language.. :D
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: Eccentric Lady on January 10, 2011, 01:06:06 am: Quote
we are here to expose exploiters and frauds. Not to teach anyone
anything other than how to be alert to frauds and exploiters.

Thanks for getting me on focus.

Now, back to my reading. I obviously have much to learn.
With joy I will be around the forum learning.

Thanks again
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: nemesis on January 10, 2011, 10:00:46 am: Quote from: Eccentric Lady on January 09, 2011, 11:58:13 pm
Quote
"Fetish" can mean different things in different contexts but personally I would never have associated the word with crystal skulls. Am I missing something?

Maybe I am the one missing something. I thought I read somewhere that "Fetish" meant any carving from stone? Must learn more about this.

Yes. Google is your friend. It is a wonderful tool for educating yourself about all kinds of things providing it is used with a sceptical mind. I would also suggest putting "safe search" on in this instance.

Quote from: Eccentric Lady on January 09, 2011, 11:58:13 pm

Back to the gemstones, rocks and crystals; as for "honoring" rocks or praying to them, how funny that there are those that do pray to them! I certainly do not nor ever have! I have a great respect and love for all of life, from insects, reptiles, etc. and plants of every kind to the birds of the air but "idolizing" or praying to them, no way.

Funny? Funny in what way? Do you find it amusing? *Joe Pesci voice*

I think that you may do well to consider very carefully the best way to respond to the little pearls of wisdom that people sometimes generously provide. Nobody here owes you anything and if people are sufficiently kind and trusting to open the door to you, just a little bit, then maybe you need to think about how to react so that you do not come across as being rude and ungrateful.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: Eccentric Lady on January 10, 2011, 05:55:07 pm: I meant no disrespect at all, and my apologies for seeming to be so.

Cultural and language differences make clear understanding difficult and sometimes when someone new comes in may appear disrespectful or rude when truly they are not. Misunderstanding easy to do on such a forum as this and since only words typed can make clear understanding very difficult since faces are hidden behind the screen.

Again, my apologies. I replied to what earthw7 had said,

"« Reply #8
Quote
That was me who was trying to explain there is a difference between the concept of crystals and rocks,
we don't use them (crystal) but we do honor rocks as we do honor trees and everything around us.
Quote
We don't crystal skulls that some newagers believe in nor do we pray to rocks.

Nor do we pray to rocks; that is what I was replying to.

Again, no offense at all intended simply my reply to someone who says "We do not pray to rocks"
Now, back on the focus of this forum here: to expose exploiters and frauds. Not to teach anyone
anything other than how to be alert to frauds and exploiters." and other serious issues. I posed question regarding some books I have that I am (or was) looking forward to reading but if only written by real and not fakes

Thanks again earthw7

A wonderful learning day to all.
Title: Re: American Indian Sculpture, Carving, and Figurines
Post by: Spandex~Atom on January 11, 2011, 02:27:01 am: Hi Eccentric Lady :-)

I'm also a bit eccentric lol.

I'm not speaking for any tradition or culture here, though my ancestry is white European.
Some words I came accross a few years ago sound true to me and I would like to share them:

God sleeps in the rock, dreams in the plant, stirs in the animal, and awakens in man.
—Ibn al 'Arabi

If you are an artist and wishing to just 'do the right thing', I empathise, being an artist myself. The impulse to work with the things around us wether they are clay, wood, rock, etc, together with the knowledge that all contain spirit (to me everything is spirit), means we can become very conscious about what we should and shouldn't be doing, and what is right or wrong to do when creating art. I think that's a good thing, as it makes us more responsible. I think a sensible way to go about it is to just not be wasteful, be aware of the sources of our materials, whatever they may be, and be responsible about the waste we produce.
If it's sacred art of some type you are feeling drawn to create, and desire to to do the right thing in the sense of respecting nature, the universe, Spirit, then imo you just need to take into consideration the impact of creating the artwork (as said earlier), as this is just common sense, and also pay respect to the source of all these things including the inspiration that guides you. In other words, give something back. Life is reciprocal.
Maybe I'm on the wrong track with what you were asking.
It is a dangerous thing for any Indiginous peoples to share the 'protocols' at this time because people will take this knowledge, whatever it is, and use it as a gimmick to sell themselves or their goods. everything I just said is pretty much just common sense to me, and not sourced from any tradition in particular except the giving in return, which is as old as the pyramids and older..
As far as art being sacred is concerned, imo that is the true essence of art and it's original purpose....
True Art is an expression of the divine, and it can be expressed in something as simple as a well drawn line.

(http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k558/SpandexAtom/0zen0.jpg)