NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: E.P. Grondine on June 24, 2010, 06:38:18 pm
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http://www.cherokeephoenix.org/25014/Article.aspx
As this is a Cherokee issue, it is not my place to comment further.
But I will note that the Cherokee leadership, like that of all other eastern peoples, will need to come up with some good solutions, or the frauds will find fertile ground to continue to operate.
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will need to come up with some good solutions
What "soutions" would you propose EPG?
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Interesting article, but what exactly is the problem here we are discussing?
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Rattlebone said
Interesting article, but what exactly is the problem here we are discussing?
I think I know what EPG is getting at. I think he's talking about the issue of Tribes ( in this case Cherokee ) somehow integrating descendents, which is something that he's brought up in past threads.
I guess the argument goes something to the effect that if the Tribes don't want to integrate non enrolled members, then nobody
(Federally Recognized Indians or anyone else) should complain about "them" "descendents" or alleged descendents when they misrepresent the Tribes that they say they represent because the Tribes don't want to take responsibility for them and teach them Authentic Culture and Traditions in the first place. It's an old argument that seems to always be brought up in discussions like these.
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Rattlebone said
Interesting article, but what exactly is the problem here we are discussing?
I think I know what EPG is getting at. I think he's talking about the issue of Tribes ( in this case Cherokee ) somehow integrating descendents, which is something that he's brought up in past threads.
I guess the argument goes something to the effect that if the Tribes don't want to integrate non enrolled members, then nobody
(Federally Recognized Indians or anyone else) should complain about "them" "descendents" or alleged descendents when they misrepresent the Tribes that they say they represent because the Tribes don't want to take responsibility for them and teach them Authentic Culture and Traditions in the first place. It's an old argument that seems to always be brought up in discussions like these.
I don't really think it's a fixable situation because most can't prove they really are descendants in the first place. Most probably really are not and just think they are.
I think the best job and most feasible thing to do in order to remedy the situation is what the CNO is doing with it's satellite communities.
It allows them in, and makes an NDN community from that, and yet keeps those who are enrolled in charge.
I would think that is something both socially and politically a good idea for NDN country in general.
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I guess the argument goes something to the effect that if the Tribes don't want to integrate non enrolled members, then nobody (Federally Recognized Indians or anyone else) should complain about "them" "descendents" or alleged descendents when they misrepresent the Tribes that they say they represent because the Tribes don't want to take responsibility for them and teach them Authentic Culture and Traditions in the first place. It's an old argument that seems to always be brought up in discussions like these.
Blackwolf, that's not my position nor my argument. In the east, PODIA do represent a vulnerable population for the fraudsters to operate, and I have met Cherokee with higher bq and better training who are not Federally enrolled.
On the Aztlan mailing list, I just read some correspondence between academics who were taken in by a new age book on Cherokee astronomy, and the CNO had to straighten the situation out.
Again, I am not Cherokee, nor of Cherokee descent, and it is not up to me to comment further than to point out that either right now and in the future these are questions which every nation will have to come up with some answers to.
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I don't really think it's a fixable situation because most can't prove they really are descendants in the first place. Most probably really are not and just think they are.
True, but often they have descent from another people, and their ancestors just claimed it was Cherokee because either the Cherokee were more acceptable socially, or they just did not know.
In some cases they do have descent, and high bq.
I think the best job and most feasible thing to do in order to remedy the situation is what the CNO is doing with it's satellite communities.
It allows them in, and makes an NDN community from that, and yet keeps those who are enrolled in charge.
I would think that is something both socially and politically a good idea for NDN country in general.
Certainly the CNO's solution will be looked at by other nations to see how it works and to see if it may be used by them.
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E.P. Grondine said
In some cases they do have descent and high bq.
I have met Cherokee with higher bq and better training who are not Federally enrolled.
Sorry EPG, thats just wrong.
Anybody that knows anything about Cherokees knows that BQ was not an issue. It was an issue as to who was "by blood" and who wasn't, but not as to skin color. That's not to say that there weren't divisions between Full Bloods and Mixed Bloods, which there were in the past and even today. But as far as people who claim to be of Cherokee Heritage not enrolled in one of the 3 Federally Recognized Cherokee Tribes having "high BQs". This is pure nonsense. Most of the Fakes claim that their ancestors walked off the Trail of Tears and that they are 1/4 or something like that. Using the general Rule of 20 years for a generation, which would be around 8 generations from 1840, (Trail of Tears was 1838). For the handfuls of Cherokees that did stay behind,( and didn't join up with the EB later ), ( which you could probably count on your fingers ), these folks were most likely "white Cherokees" to begin with, and could pass themselves off as white. But even if they were Full Bloods, and stayed behind, then they would have intermixed with whites for 8 generations. A full blood intermixing for 8 generations would become 1/256 in 8 generations. And even if a Full Blood "4/4" missed the Dawes Roll in 1900, and settled outside the CN, there would be no pool of Full Bloods for this Cherokee to intermingle with. This "myth" of people who claim Cherokee heritage having "high BQs" is nothing more than that "a myth". Not only that, but the vast majority of these people aren't Cherokee at all, and don't have "a drop" of Cherokee blood. The ones that aren't enrolled but actually DO HAVE Cherokee blood, are of low BQs and are of predominately "white ancestry". If there were dark skin people in their family, in many cases, they were most likely of "African American" ancestry", and smaller numbers who had American Indian ancestry from other Tribes. And a lot of these folks are in all likelihood the descendents of "white invaders" who invaded Cherokee land. Maybe they got a suntan or something.
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Black Wolf, undoutedly much of what you say is true in many cases; however, I am aware of a number of people of high BQ who live in the Cherokee Nation who are not enrolled. They are recognized in their communities and often speak Cherokee as a first or only language, but are not enrolled. This is probably a result of historical and political circumstances. The Dawes process was flawed in many aspects, but for better or worse it is the legal basis for membership in the CNO.
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Black Wolf, undoutedly much of what you say is true in many cases; however, I am aware of a number of people of high BQ who live in the Cherokee Nation who are not enrolled. They are recognized in their communities and often speak Cherokee as a first or only language, but are not enrolled. This is probably a result of historical and political circumstances. The Dawes process was flawed in many aspects, but for better or worse it is the legal basis for membership in the CNO.
There are indeed people of Cherokee ancestry in what is now the boundaries of the CNO who come from families that were not put on the Dawes, and are indeed still recognized by the Cherokee people as being who they are. However unless this happened in some actual community where dozens of people were not enrollled, then I doubt that today any of their descendants are over 1/4. I know of some that were high BQ during the time of the Dawes that were not enrolled, and one of their descendants is actually pretty fair well known in even in greater NDN country. However even that particular man is lower BQ, and white looking with BQ that is probably around 1/4 himself.
So though I do agree with you such people existed back then, I do not believe their descendants would still be un-enrolled and high BQ today. They would have either married NON NDN's would have kept the situation the same, or married somebody enrolled and would make those descendants no longer un-enrolled.
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Wolfhawaii and Rattlebone . . . Haven't either of you read any of David Cornsilk's writings? Or Carey Cottage's? The Cherokee are the most documented people on the planet. IF anyone "walked off the Trail", they blended in, assimilated. As BlackWolf pointed out, by now their descendants would be down to 1/256 bq, with no connection to the Cherokee. No one opted out of the Dawes Roll. If you didn't register yourself, someone else did it for you.
Anyone who thinks there are full-blood or near to full-blood Cherokee who are not enrolled in one of the three recognized Cherokee Nations, should read:
David Cornsilk: Definition of Wannabee (http://www.cornsilks.com/Dwords-wannabee.html)
Thoughts from Polly's Granddaughter (http://pollysgranddaughter.blogspot.com/)
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Wolfhawaii and Rattlebone . . . Haven't either of you read any of David Cornsilk's writings? Or Carey Cottage's? The Cherokee are the most documented people on the planet. IF anyone "walked off the Trail", they blended in, assimilated. As BlackWolf pointed out, by now their descendants would be down to 1/256 bq, with no connection to the Cherokee. No one opted out of the Dawes Roll. If you didn't register yourself, someone else did it for you.
Anyone who thinks there are full-blood or near to full-blood Cherokee who are not enrolled in one of the three recognized Cherokee Nations, should read:
David Cornsilk: Definition of Wannabee (http://www.cornsilks.com/Dwords-wannabee.html)
Thoughts from Polly's Granddaughter (http://pollysgranddaughter.blogspot.com/)
Haven't either of you read any of David Cornsilk's writings?
I have seen plenty of his writings, and though I might agree with some of what he says, he is by no means some God, in which everything he says is absolute gospel.
He says enough horrible things about the people of the EBC, and by that I mean those enrolled, that I take a lot of what he says now days with a grain of salt.
IF anyone "walked off the Trail", they blended in, assimilated. As BlackWolf pointed out, by now their descendants would be down to 1/256 bq, with no connection to the Cherokee.
Where did I mention in my previous post anything about "people who walked off the trail.?"
I said point blank that I was talking about people in what is now the territory of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. I also said that those that I knew of were not high BQ. The highest I would put any of them is at 1/4, if even that. One of them is actually a very well known writer. Now I don't know if he is enrolled himself or not, but he will actually point to some of his own relatives that were in Oklahoma in the days of the dawes and say he knows they were never enrolled.
of course even those people are few and far between.
As BlackWolf pointed out, by now their descendants would be down to 1/256 bq, with no connection to the Cherokee. No one opted out of the Dawes Roll. If you didn't register yourself, someone else did it for you.
Once again, I was not talking about people with "my family walked off the trail stories." If you are going to attempt to correct me on something, please take the time to read what I actually said.
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I said point blank that I was talking about people in what is now the territory of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. I also said that those that I knew of were not high BQ. The highest I would put any of them is at 1/4, if even that. One of them is actually a very well known writer. Now I don't know if he is enrolled himself or not, but he will actually point to some of his own relatives that were in Oklahoma in the days of the dawes and say he knows they were never enrolled.
of course even those people are few and far between.
People living in Oklahoma, claiming to be Cherokee, and not enrolled with any of the three recognized Cherokee Nations. I got that, Rattle.
As I said before, if someone did not register himself and his family, someone else did it for him. Everyone living in Indian Territory was counted. The only way someone wouldn't have been counted would be if he left the Nation, blended in, assimilated. In other words, was no longer part of the Cherokee Nation.
". . . not high BQ. The highest I would put any of them is at 1/4, if even that." How'd you come up with 1/4 after that many generations marrying outside the Nation? There have been seven to eight generations since the Trail of Tears. Even if someone was 4/4 Cherokee in 1838, their descendants would be approximately 1/256 bq now. It's been over 100 years since the Dawes Roll. Even if someone was 4/4 the day the census was taken, if their descendants all married out since, they'd be 1/32 bq at most. Where'd you come up with 1/4?
Edit to add: Rattle, you really consider 1/4 a low bq?
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Wolfhawaii said
Black Wolf, undoubtedly much of what you say is true in many cases; however, I am aware of a number of people of high BQ who live in the Cherokee Nation who are not enrolled. They are recognized in their communities and often speak Cherokee as a first or only language, but are not enrolled. This is probably a result of historical and political circumstances. The Dawes process was flawed in many aspects, but for better or worse it is the legal basis for membership in the CNO.
however, I am aware of a number of people of high BQ who live in the Cherokee Nation who are not enrolled.
Let’s examine how this would be possible wolfhawaii. The Dawes Act was passed in 1887 by Congress and later the Curtis Act in 1898. The main applications for Dawes were taken from 1900-1902 and then minor children in 1906. So let’s use the year 1900 to simplify things. The purpose of the Dawes Rolls was to verify Tribal Members for those who would receive land allotments as the Federal Government was in the process of breaking up the Reservation System or the idea of land being held in common by the Tribes. At around this time in Indian Territory, there was a US census taken of everyone living in the Cherokee Nation, and actually the majority of people living in Indian Territory at the time weren’t even considered Cherokee.
Part of the qualification to get on the Dawes Roll was for someone to be able to trace back to an 1880 Authenticated Tribal Roll taken by the Cherokee Nation, and also another census taken in 1896. Cherokees by blood, Minor Cherokees by blood, Intermarried Whites, Freedmen, and (Shawnee and Delaware Indians who were made citizens of the Cherokee Nation between 1867-1869) were enrolled on the Dawes Roll. However with that said, one did not have to be “Indian” or a Cherokee to live in Indian Territory, and as I pointed out, the majority at the time, WERE NEITHER Indian nor Cherokee. Legal residency by Cherokees was required to enroll on Dawes. There are 4 states in particular, where it is known that there were Cherokees living outside the boundaries. Kansas, Texas, Arkansas, and Missouri. Cherokees would not qualify if they lived here. However, many of these people can at least trace back to another Cherokee Roll or census. It is pure nonsense the story that people give of their ancestors not enrolling that were living in Indian Territory. For those that refused to enroll, they were either enrolled by force or by people in their community. ( See link Polly’s Grandaughter” that bls926 provided.
This is even the case with Redbird Smith who was enrolled later. There were numerous censuses and Rolls taken before Dawes. What is known is that there were more people that applied to Dawes then actually got accepted. The reason people applied (whites in particular) was because they wanted allotments, and there were many whites trying to pass themselves off as mixed blood Cherokees. Luckily the overwhelming majority of these people were rejected. Sometimes when people say their Cherokee ancestor applied but didn’t get on the Final Roll, I take that to mean that they were rejected because they weren’t Cherokee. Also, sometimes a family would have to come back with more proof that they were Cherokee and their initial application would be listed as “doubtful” and they would ask for more proof. In the overwhelming majority of cases, if one was Cherokee, he or she could eventually prove it.
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There were also a number of White Intruders who were squatting on Indian Land.
http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/heritage/native-american/ancestor-search.html (http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/heritage/native-american/ancestor-search.html)
Census of Intruders
If you haven't found your ancestor listed on any rolls of persons recognized as tribal members, you should check for lists of "Intruders". The correspondence between tribal officials and agents is full of complaints about non-Indians living on tribal land and sometimes includes lists of the names of these people with a request that they be removed. The Cherokees compiled a census of intruders in 1893 which has been microfilmed by the Fort Worth Branch (control number 7RA-55) and censuses taken by the tribe in 1880 and 1890 (microfilmed as 7RA07 and 7RA08) contain separate schedules of Intruders. Many of the persons enrolled by the Dawes Commission found non--Indians living on the lands they selected as allotments. The Commission investigated these complaints from 1901 to 1909 and the indexes to these intruder cases are available on microfilm (7RA5-3) at the Fort Worth Branch. Many Outalucks are the descendants of these "intruders".
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There are records to both the Rejectees and the Intruders at this link.
http://www.archives.gov/pacific/archives/riverside/finding-aids/microfilm-native-americans.html (http://www.archives.gov/pacific/archives/riverside/finding-aids/microfilm-native-americans.html)
With that said, if one had family in Oklahoma and are claiming to be Cherokee but can’t enroll, it’s most likely they are the descendents of the Rejectees and the Intruders because enrollment wasn’t an option. And if they left the Tribal Boundaries, then they should be able to come up with some other type of documentation. If one is living in the Cherokee Nation in NE Oklahoma today and claims to be Cherokee and can’t enroll, the best case scenario is that their Cherokee family left the boundaries of the CN before 1900 and settled in states such as Texas, Kansas, etc. But even in that case, in all likelihood they would continue to intermarry with the non Cherokee population for over 100 years. I think the best case scenario would be someone maybe being 1/16 or 1/32, and that’s assuming they were a full blood to begin with. And again, this is the extreme best case scenario. It should also be stated that these types of cases are EXTREMELY RARE. And even if there was a Cherokee that didn’t enroll and didn’t meet the Residency Requirement for Dawes, if this Cherokee or anyone of his or her descendents moved back to the CN after 1906 when Dawes was complete and married a Cherokee of “any BQ”, then their descendents would be eligible for enrollment in the Cherokee Nation today, because all that you need to enroll is to prove to be a direct descendent of an Indian by blood listed on the Dawes Roll.
I’m not denying that there are at least some people who are of Cherokee Heritage and can’t enroll, but some of the few communities that did exist in places such as Texas and Arkansas, these communities pretty much were over time absorbed into the surrounding population and also a good number of these Cherkoees eventually returned to the Cherokee Nation. However, the overwhelming majority of people claiming to be Cherokee and can’t prove it or can’t enroll are in all likelihood not Cherokee at all. Being Cherokee is probably one of the biggest lies ever told.
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I said point blank that I was talking about people in what is now the territory of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. I also said that those that I knew of were not high BQ. The highest I would put any of them is at 1/4, if even that. One of them is actually a very well known writer. Now I don't know if he is enrolled himself or not, but he will actually point to some of his own relatives that were in Oklahoma in the days of the dawes and say he knows they were never enrolled.
of course even those people are few and far between.
People living in Oklahoma, claiming to be Cherokee, and not enrolled with any of the three recognized Cherokee Nations. I got that, Rattle.
As I said before, if someone did not register himself and his family, someone else did it for him. Everyone living in Indian Territory was counted. The only way someone wouldn't have been counted would be if he left the Nation, blended in, assimilated. In other words, was no longer part of the Cherokee Nation.
". . . not high BQ. The highest I would put any of them is at 1/4, if even that." How'd you come up with 1/4 after that many generations marrying outside the Nation? There have been seven to eight generations since the Trail of Tears. Even if someone was 4/4 Cherokee in 1838, their descendants would be approximately 1/256 bq now. It's been over 100 years since the Dawes Roll. Even if someone was 4/4 the day the census was taken, if their descendants all married out since, they'd be 1/32 bq at most. Where'd you come up with 1/4?
Edit to add: Rattle, you really consider 1/4 a low bq?
As I said before, if someone did not register himself and his family, someone else did it for him.
Yes I am aware of that happening too, but still that doesn't matter as there were some people who did not end up doing it for whatever reason.
In fact mixed blood Choctaw/Cherokee writer Louis Owens himself pointed out that he had family in Oklahoma in the time of the Dawes who did not enroll. He speaks of one such relative that no matter much they have researched, that individual did not show up.
Now anyone whom has seen his family pictures can clearly tell the man came from a mixed blood NDN family. I do not know if he himself was enrolled or not, but again you can clearly tell by his family pictures that his claims to be NDN were genuine, and it was not from some far back ancestry.
Now once again, I am not saying such people were many, because they were not; still the fact remains that such people did exist.
Now maybe using records and proof that their relatives such as brothers and sisters etc were enrolled might prove they were NDN themselves, that would not change the fact that their direct descendants could not be enrolled unless they had been married with enrolled people.
The Dawes rolls was and still is a very troubled and imperfect document, and the system used to do it was flawed as well.
No matter how much one cites the writing of John Cornsilk, or acknowledges that fact that yes the Cherokee were a very well documented people, still though very very rare there were indeed some that did not get enrolled.
The only way someone wouldn't have been counted would be if he left the Nation, blended in, assimilated. In other words, was no longer part of the Cherokee Nation.
This might be true if you are talking about those people who descend from those whom come from stories "running and hiding," but to apply this train of thought to Indian territory is a bit problematic.
Way before the land rush into what is now Indian territory, there were intruders both white and black pouring into the nations. In fact that situation added to the lawlessness of the region after it was devastated by the US civil war.
Now then take into effect that at the time of the Dawes, there were people being enrolled that were 1/16th or less. With such a low BQ, I can agree with your point of "blending in," but that would not negate the fact that they would have been Cherokee citizens. Let's consider at the time of the US civil war, Chief John Ross of the Cherokee himself was only 1/8.
Now if people back the of such low BQ chose not to enroll, I seriously doubt that somebody would have done it for them, or forced them into it. They could have easily went ahead and passed off as just white if they wanted to, and it's doubtful anyone would have said a word about it.
Now in the whole NAPFS way of thinking, which seems expressed by so many people today, I am guessing the descendants of those people would be considered PODIA's today. However, as numerously pointed out by Blackwolf, and others; BQ prior to the Dawes roll was not even a concept in the mind of the Cherokee people anymore then skin color was in determination who was one of the people or not. That seems to be the train of thought now days as well considering the Cherokee nation has enrolled members who are something equivalent of 1/4032, or some outrageously low number like that.
So if one of the lower Cherokee very low BQ people did not wish to enroll, it would have been very possible even if they had not left the lands of the nation, and at the same time it would have meant they still would have been seen as NDN. The US government would not have been looking for "white" looking people.
Still as I have pointed out, I have heard of higher BQ people doing just the same, but that was very rare.
You must also take into consideration that as I pointed out before, both during and after the civil war, Indian territory was a lawless mess. during the war many, and especially those who sympathized with the north ran into places like Texas and Kansas etc. Many of those did not return home because it was indeed safer where they moved to, but it did not mean they didn't so at a later date, or after that of the Dawes. The Dawes was closed in 1906, and that was not a very long time really from the 1860's. Especially true in my point of view considering I had family that fought on a Union all NDN battalion, who lived all the way until the 1920's.
So in short I will agree with Blackwolf and others that such people are very rare, but they did in fact exist. The argument I see you presenting here to me seems to come from more reading and learning from others, instead of knowing of such things from a personal perspective that comes passed down from a family that seen it first hand, like mine did.
How'd you come up with 1/4 after that many generations marrying outside the Nation?
I only used that being speculative, but if thinking of an elderly person today, such a number was not impossible. You seem to be still thinking in terms of people who claim to have "hid out" during the time of the trail of tears, or families similar to yours or a part of mine who would have now been part of the EBC had they enrolled.
What you do not seem to be aware of is the possibility of families of the refugees caused by the civil war in what was then Indian territory still going back and forth to visit family on both sides of let's say north Texas and what is now Oklahoma to visit with NDN relations on both sides of the border, sorta like those from south of the Mexican/US border do now.
Then adding in the fact that the Dawes rolls were not closed until 1906, and that very much leaves the possibility of a full blood who for whatever reason who did not enroll having children after that time. That child or even their kids or grand kids could still be alive today, but would be elderly.
There have been seven to eight generations since the Trail of Tears. Even if someone was 4/4 Cherokee in 1838, their descendants would be approximately 1/256 bq now
Again, we are not talking about the trail of tears, and the Dawes rolls were not even complete and closed until 1906. So this constant mention of the trail of tears in this regards is meaningless, and would only work if you wished to discuss people claiming to be Cherokee from some fake tribe trying to gain recognition.
It's been over 100 years since the Dawes Roll.
Once again, the Dawes Rolls were complete in the early 1900's. Every once in a while you still hear about an "original enroll dying." That is getting very uncommon now days, but it was not in the 1990's.
Even if someone was 4/4 the day the census was taken, if their descendants all married out since, they'd be 1/32 bq at most. Where'd you come up with 1/4?
I think my above statements now prove my point on that, even if I was using 1/4 as hypothetical number. Perhaps I should have said 1/8, or 1/16th and saved us both some typing.
Rattle, you really consider 1/4 a low bq?
Personally no, but I have been given arguments even from you over the last couple years that have shown me how soo many people do. This and the fact I see people on forums who are 1/4 or 1/8 whom are enrolled get treated badly and called "thin bloods" or "white, or black" for being of those BQ's.
Aside of arguing of somebody becoming something else due to cultural erosion, to me it's odd to think of a some BQ's considered low to mean a group of people has vanished etc. To think that a people who have existed since time immemorial, or in the white man's eyes about 30,000 years can be deemed not existent by a few out marriages, but that is just me.
To say myself some further typing. I am going to stress here that I fully believe the people I just mention are extremely rare. Probably 1 in 300,000 or something like that, but they do exist. They however are NOT the same as people claiming their families hid out on some trail of tears story
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There are records to both the Rejectees and the Intruders at this link.
http://www.archives.gov/pacific/archives/riverside/finding-aids/microfilm-native-americans.html (http://www.archives.gov/pacific/archives/riverside/finding-aids/microfilm-native-americans.html)
With that said, if one had family in Oklahoma and are claiming to be Cherokee but can’t enroll, it’s most likely they are the descendents of the Rejectees and the Intruders because enrollment wasn’t an option. And if they left the Tribal Boundaries, then they should be able to come up with some other type of documentation. If one is living in the Cherokee Nation in NE Oklahoma today and claims to be Cherokee and can’t enroll, the best case scenario is that their Cherokee family left the boundaries of the CN before 1900 and settled in states such as Texas, Kansas, etc. But even in that case, in all likelihood they would continue to intermarry with the non Cherokee population for over 100 years. I think the best case scenario would be someone maybe being 1/16 or 1/32, and that’s assuming they were a full blood to begin with. And again, this is the extreme best case scenario. It should also be stated that these types of cases are EXTREMELY RARE. And even if there was a Cherokee that didn’t enroll and didn’t meet the Residency Requirement for Dawes, if this Cherokee or anyone of his or her descendents moved back to the CN after 1906 when Dawes was complete and married a Cherokee of “any BQ”, then their descendents would be eligible for enrollment in the Cherokee Nation today, because all that you need to enroll is to prove to be a direct descendent of an Indian by blood listed on the Dawes Roll.
I’m not denying that there are at least some people who are of Cherokee Heritage and can’t enroll, but some of the few communities that did exist in places such as Texas and Arkansas, these communities pretty much were over time absorbed into the surrounding population and also a good number of these Cherkoees eventually returned to the Cherokee Nation. However, the overwhelming majority of people claiming to be Cherokee and can’t prove it or can’t enroll are in all likelihood not Cherokee at all. Being Cherokee is probably one of the biggest lies ever told.
I think this is a good explanation for things.
As I was pointing out to BLS926, the situation with not being enrolled due to being in Arkansas, Texas etc were often due to being refugees of the civil war that did not go back, or other problems.
In the case of refugees, it was usually those who had been union supporters. However in this case, I still think they are extremely rare, and should not be considered the same as people with ggggg grandma stories they can't prove stemming from people hiding out from the trail of tears.
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I'm only quoting and replying to part of your previous post, Rattle. If BlackWolf wants to try and explain reality to you, maybe you'll listen to him. After all, why should you listen to me? Mine is all book knowledge. What could I possibly know first-hand, since I wasn't born and raised in Oklahoma? Oh snap, neither were you.
How'd you come up with 1/4 after that many generations marrying outside the Nation?
It's been over 100 years since the Dawes Roll.
Once again, the Dawes Rolls were complete in the early 1900's. Every once in a while you still hear about an "original enroll dying." That is getting very uncommon now days, but it was not in the 1990's.
Like I said, "It's been over 100 years since the Dawes Roll."
104 years = 5 generations. 5 generations = 1/32.
Rattle, you really consider 1/4 a low bq?
Personally no, but I have been given arguments even from you over the last couple years that have shown me how soo many people do. This and the fact I see people on forums who are 1/4 or 1/8 whom are enrolled get treated badly and called "thin bloods" or "white, or black" for being of those BQ's.
You've never seen me say 1/4 or even 1/8 is low bq. Do not put words in my mouth. If you've been given a hard time on other forums because you're considered "thin-blood", that's not my doing.
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One thing to keep in mind about this sort of thing is the issue of “Racial Appearance” and that relation to allegedly being Cherokee. In Cherokee communities in both Oklahoma and North Carolina there are Full Blood communities there, so in those instances you could say that people with BQs of 4/4 and 3/4 are racially Cherokee. And someone who is ½ would be half racially Cherokee. You could mostly likely find characteristics particular to Cherokees in someone who is ¼ Cherokee, but then again I know of an enrolled Cherokee Citizen with a BQ of 1/4 who is blonde, and could probably pass for someone just off the boat from Germany. I also know of enrolled Cherokees with low BQs with dark skin and dark hair. In reference to the other post I made, the point is that if someone is unenrolled and truly of Cherokee Heritage, it is most likely that they are of predominately white ancestry or maybe even in some cases, predominately black ancestry.
There may be some extremely rare cases, such as others have pointed out here, where this may not be the case. Let’s say for example, two full blood families that don’t know each other left the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation right before the Dawes Rolls were compiled (lets say 1899). Both full blood Cherokee families then had full blood Cherokee children, and the children of these full blood cherokees somehow found each other outside of the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation, married and had kids. They would be let’s say 30 years old in 1930. Their kids would be full blood. I guess this would be possible then to have an unenrolled full blood today. They’d be about 80 years old today. And if they had kids in let’s say, 1950, their kids would be half, and then their kids maybe born in the 1970’s would be 1/4. Again, possible, yes, but if it did happen it was extremely rare.
And let’s also keep in mind that if any of these descendents in the line moved back to the Cherokee Nation and had kids with a Cherokee AT ANY POINT, then from that point on, the descendents of these people would be eligible for Cherokee Nation citizenship. Because citizenship in the Cherokee Nation is based on being able to prove lineal descent of an Indian by blood on the Dawes Roll. The point is that aside from the extremely rare and uncommon cases I mentioned, the overwhelming majority of undocumented Cherokees (if in fact they are of Cherokee Heritage” to begin with), would be of low Cherokee BQ’s. Skin color, eyes color, high cheekbones, and the ability to tan well, have absolutely nothing to do with the probability of being Cherokee. As a matter of fact, it’s offensive to many Cherokees when people who claim Cherokee Heritage and can’t prove it talk about their “high cheekbones”, dark skin, or their ability to tan well. It’s actually insulting. It would be like someone basing their probability of being Irish by the freckles on their body.
But aside from the documented know full blood communities that I mention above, being Cherokee is a political citizenship definition based on being Cherokee by blood, and not necessarily being of predominantly Cherokee ancestry.
It should also be pointed out that for people of Cherokee Heritage that moved outside the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation, it’s not like there were small neighborhoods of Cherokees where everyone was Cherokee. To make an analogy, there would be nothing like a Cherokee version of Little Italy in New York outside of the Cherokee Nation. ( The only exception would be North Carolina ). Cherokee settled in geographical areas that were in many cases, many miles apart from other Cherokees that settled outside of the CN boundaries. I’m sure that some of the Cherokees that moved outside of the Cherokee Nation bounders did have some contact with each other and other Cherokee families that also moved outside the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation, and maybe even went back to the Cherokee Nation to visit relatives on occasion, but in MOST cases, there was extensive intermarriage with non Cherokees (in most cases with the surrounding white population).
There are all kinds of folks all over the world and in this country who are dark skin and dark hair who don’t have a drop of Cherokee Blood in them. Hawaiians, people from Southern Europe such as Greece, Spain, Portugal, Sicily (Remember Iron Eyes Cody?), people of mulatto or black/white ancestry, Asians, people in the Caribbean who are mulatto of Spanish/African ancestry, and most people in Mexico are dark skin because they are mixed Spaniard and Indians from Mexican Territory. 90 percent of people in South America, aside from the White elite are dark skin. Gypsies in Europe are dark skin, and people from India, Sri Lanka, and the Middle East are all dark skin. In other words, if someone is unenrolled Cherokee and happens to have dark skin, this really doesn’t mean much as these people could have a number of different ancestries. And THIS IS MOST LIKELY THE CASE other then the rare cases that I mention above. Ed Laughry who goes by the name “Chief Red Hawk” had darker skin and hair and he claimed to be Cherokee, yet he was exposed on this site as a fraud and it turned out he was of Mexican American or Hispanic heritage.
This article here from the website Pollysgrandaughter that bls926 posted deals with this issue.
“Can you tell by looking?” WHO ARE THE CHEROKEEs IN THE PICTURES??
http://pollysgranddaughter.blogspot.com/2009/10/can-you-tell-by-looking.html (http://pollysgranddaughter.blogspot.com/2009/10/can-you-tell-by-looking.html)
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I'm glad I'm not the Cherokee leaders having to work this out, and I hope you will understand my lack of response. But there are two points I would like to raise.
First, the passage of time does not prevent two Cherokee descendents from marrying, and having a higher bq child than either of them. Consider Elvis.
(Once again, I can not but help thinking what the results would have been had he "gone public" about his Cherokee ancestry, as he wished to do.)
Two, a question. If a young person's mother or grandmother teaches that young person Cherokee traditions, are they not Cherokee?
Finally, I would ask that those here keep in mind that the situation in the east is different than that in the west.
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I'm only quoting and replying to part of your previous post, Rattle. If BlackWolf wants to try and explain reality to you, maybe you'll listen to him. After all, why should you listen to me? Mine is all book knowledge. What could I possibly know first-hand, since I wasn't born and raised in Oklahoma? Oh snap, neither were you.
How'd you come up with 1/4 after that many generations marrying outside the Nation?
It's been over 100 years since the Dawes Roll.
Once again, the Dawes Rolls were complete in the early 1900's. Every once in a while you still hear about an "original enroll dying." That is getting very uncommon now days, but it was not in the 1990's.
Like I said, "It's been over 100 years since the Dawes Roll."
104 years = 5 generations. 5 generations = 1/32.
Rattle, you really consider 1/4 a low bq?
Personally no, but I have been given arguments even from you over the last couple years that have shown me how soo many people do. This and the fact I see people on forums who are 1/4 or 1/8 whom are enrolled get treated badly and called "thin bloods" or "white, or black" for being of those BQ's.
You've never seen me say 1/4 or even 1/8 is low bq. Do not put words in my mouth. If you've been given a hard time on other forums because you're considered "thin-blood", that's not my doing.
It has been suggested by one of the moderators that I edit my post, to remove personal comments about Rattle's bq. I am not going to do that; my post will remain as originally written. Rattle brought bq into this discussion. He is the one that made comments about low bq, accusing me of considering 1/4 low. He is the one who stated that people with 1/4 or 1/8 bq are considered thin-bloods and are treated badly on other forums. Rattle opened this door; I simply walked thru it.
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I'm glad I'm not the Cherokee leaders having to work this out, and I hope you will understand my lack of response. But there are two points I would like to raise.
First, the passage of time does not prevent two Cherokee descendents from marrying, and having a higher bq child than either of them. Consider Elvis.
(Once again, I can not but help thinking what the results would have been had he "gone public" about his Cherokee ancestry, as he wished to do.)
Two, a question. If a young person's mother or grandmother teaches that young person Cherokee traditions, are they not Cherokee?
Finally, I would ask that those here keep in mind that the situation in the east is different than that in the west.
If two Cherokee descendents marry? If two full bloods marry, then they would have a full blood child. If somebody of 1/2 BQ married a full blood, then it’s obvious that the child would have a higher BQ then the 1/2 blood. But let’s remember who we are talking about EPG. People that left the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation in 1900. These people were scattered over a number of states. Even in Cherokee communities in Oklahoma, there was a high rate of intermarriage amongst Cherokees with whites. So you can imagine how it was outside of Cherokee communities. For the Cherokees that settled outside of the Cherokee Nation right before the Dawes Rolls were established, it’s highly unlikely they continued to intermarry with each other. If it did occur, it probably only occurred in the first decade or so. The records show that Cherokees that did settle outside the boundaries were scattered over a few states. Also, all the evidence shows that there was extensive intermarriage with the non Cherokee population for these Cherokees that left. Northeast Oklahoma and North Carolina were the only two places where a cohesive intact Cherokee community continued to exist.
As far as your second part goes, Two, a question. If a young person's mother or grandmother teaches that young person Cherokee traditions are they not Cherokee?
Was that young person's mother or grandmother Cherokee?
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As far as your second part goes, Two, a question. If a young person's mother or grandmother teaches that young person Cherokee traditions are they not Cherokee?
Was that young person's mother or grandmother Cherokee?
In this hypothetical case, let's say mother or grandmother of Cherokee descent with certainty.
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I'm glad I'm not the Cherokee leaders having to work this out.
Well the Dawes rolls are closed and final, and only an act of Congress can change that. In all due honesty, the Dawes rolls should remain closed.
To open them would be opening a Pandora's box of frauds and people who think they are Cherokee or some other tribe from some long ago story they can't prove, trying to get themselves put on the rolls.
You have to figure with the recognition process for tribes themselves taking no less then 30 years most of the time due to the numerous fake tribes trying for recognition, could you imagine the amount of time it would take to wade through the millions of people who would try??
For those who are part of the very rare exceptions to the rule like You, Blackwolf, and myself have pointed out, nothing is stopping them from being who they say they are. It does not take recognition from the feds or some IRA government to make them who they are, if what they say is true.
They just need to take the time to connect with the people they say they are from, or from NDN people in general, and gain acceptance from them, and as long as they did not do this for exploitative reasons in the first place, I think they will find that they are where they feel they need to be.
If they do not do that, they should just be happy with themselves and live their lives to the fullest, and pay no mind to identity police.
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As far as your second part goes, Two, a question. If a young person's mother or grandmother teaches that young person Cherokee traditions are they not Cherokee?
Was that young person's mother or grandmother Cherokee?
In this hypothetical case, let's say mother or grandmother of Cherokee descent with certainty.
In this case, if this grandmother or mother is truly of Cherokee heritage, then that would be the child's right to claim his or her heritage. They wouldn't be Cherokee in the legal and political sense for obvious reasons, but if they actually were without a doubt of Cherokee heritage, then that would be their business as to how they identify. Because of Political Reasons, I think the Tribes would refer to these people as people of Cherokee descent or Cherokee Heritage. It would be the same for people of Italian descent in this country. They are referred to as either Italians Americans or people of Italian descent, but only Italian Citizens could be referred to as "Italians" in the legal sense.
Just some things that I would like to point out in that hypothetical case EPG. If the mother or grandmother is of Cherokee descent with certainty but unenrolled, and she actually new authentic Cherokee culture, then she would probably be one of the rare cases I mentioned in my other post. She could be the daughter of a full blood that left the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation right before the Dawes Rolls were established, she could have then had children, and she could have passed Cherokee culture down to her children. But as the rate of intermarriage with non Cherokees increases over the generations (and especially outside of any real Cherokee community)”, and as time progresses, the likelihood of Authentic Cherokee Culture being passed down through the generations decreases dramatically. Besides the above mentioned case, the other case I could see where there may be an unenrolled Cherokee “today” teaching their kids authentic Cherokee culture, would be for an unenrolled Cherokee actually moving back to an actual Cherokee community in either Oklahoma or North Carolina and knowing Authentic cherokee culture on that basis.
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Since this thread is about the Dawe's Roll, here are some links that people may want to look at.
People can search for their family/ancestors on the Dawes Roll here.
http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/tutorial/dawes/ (http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/tutorial/dawes/)
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/finalindex.php (http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/finalindex.php)
And this is the book History of the Cherokee Indians and Their Legends and Folklore by Emmet Star. The book shows extensive Cherokee Genealogies and Family Trees. Most Cherokee Citizens are descended from families listed in this book.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ei0TAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=history+of+the+cherokee+indians&hl=en&ei=7oAqTN6rAYGBlAfV5rzmAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=Ei0TAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=history+of+the+cherokee+indians&hl=en&ei=7oAqTN6rAYGBlAfV5rzmAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)
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Black Wolf said:
Besides the above mentioned case, the other case I could see where there may be an unenrolled Cherokee “today” teaching their kids authentic Cherokee culture, would be for an unenrolled Cherokee actually moving back to an actual Cherokee community in either Oklahoma or North Carolina and knowing Authentic cherokee culture on that basis.
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Exactly.
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I would like to add something about the analogy of the full blood couple moving away from the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation right before the Dawes Roll was complied and them not having descendents eligible for Tribal Enrollment. In order for this case to be plausible, the full blood Cherokee couple would have had to leave the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation with all of their mothers, fathers and all of their grandparents for them to have descendents that are not eligible to enroll today in the Cherokee Nation. Let’s say a young full blood Cherokee couple left the Cherokee Nation in 1899 and they were in their 20’s. In this case the man would have had two full blood Cherokee parents, most likely in their 40’s or early 50’s. And it’s probable that they had grandparents alive also, so each of those parents would have had two parents. The man would thus have a full blood father, a full blood mother, and it would be probable that he would have 4 grandparents with at least some of them still alive in their 70’s maybe. That’s 6 full blood Cherokees in total that he is a lineal descendent of. The full blood woman would also have 2 full blood parents and 4 full blood grandparents. That’s possibly 12 full blood Cherokees that these people are lineal descendents of.
Even if the young full blood couple in their 20’s left the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation right before the Dawes Roll was complied in 1899, every single one of their parents and grandparents would have had to left the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation with them, in order for descendents of these people not to be eligible for citizenship in the Cherokee Nation.
Because as I pointed out above, citizenship in the Cherokee Nation is based on lineal descent of an Indian by blood on the Dawes Roll. If, for example, the man’s parents or any one of the 12 lineal ancestors stayed behind, then they would have been enrolled under Dawes. So even if this full blood Cherokee left the boundaries and settled in Maine, he and every single one of his descendents would still be eligible for Cherokee Nation citizenship.
In order for this analogy to hold true, where there are descendents of these people not eligible to enroll, all 4 full blood parents of these 2 Cherokees that left and the grandparents (if they were alive) would have ALL HAD TO PICK up and leave with their kids. The other thing to keep in mind is that back then Cherokees had bigger families then they did today, probably 5 or 6 kids, so it would be highly unlikely that because one child decided to leave for Texas or Georgia with his wife or husband that his parents and grandparents would all pack up and leave. In all likelihood, it would be the younger generation leaving, and maybe looking for work in some other state.
The other thing to consider is that after the Dawes Commission was finished enrolling people in 1906, if a Cherokee whether they be full blood or mixed blood, picked up and left the Cherokee Nation for good. Let’s say a Cherokee picked up and left for Hawaii in 1907 after enrollment, and he and his descendents stayed in Hawaii their entire life. Every one of his descendents would be eligible for Cherokee citizenship because there is no residency requirement, nor a minimum Blood Quantum requirement to be eligible for enrollment in the Cherokee Nation. The minimum BQ that was listed on the Dawes Roll at the time of enrollment was 1/128 and today there are enrolled children who are citizens of the Cherokee Nation with the lowest documented BQ being 1/4096. There are many Cherokee citizens of predominantly white, black and even Asian, Jewish and Hispanic heritage who are Cherokee citizens. And all this means is that they are documented from an Indian by blood listed on the base roll (Dawes) somewhere in their family tree. In other words, the Cherokee Nation is fairly liberal in its citizenship requirements compared to other Tribes that have cut off points of ¼ or 1/8.
So in order for someone to be truly of Cherokee Heritage, but not for enrollment in the Cherokee Nation, and have a high BQ, a lot of things would have had to happen in an exact way. The most likely cases of people genuinely having Cherokee heritage, but not enrolled, are the descendents of the handfuls of scattered Cherokee communities where people remained in key states like Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, and Kansas, or maybe the few that went to California in the 1800’s who never went back to settle in the Cherokee Nation, or did and left, and this was more probable to happen in the early to mid 1800s because there could not have been that many that left in the 1890’s right before the Dawes Roll was complied in reference to my analogy. The others would be the few families who stayed behind in the East and didn’t join up later with the Eastern Band. And these people would have BQ‘s of 1/256 in a best case scenario (and there wouldn’t be that many of these people).
And like I say, Cherokees could have settled anywhere they wanted after 1907 and Dawes Enrollment, and have descendents who are all eligible for enrollment today. During the Dust Bowl in the 1930s, half the Cherokee Nation left for California. This is why there are so many Cherokee Nation Satellite Communities in California.
The other thing to keep in mind is it’s not like the Dawes Commission came in for a few weeks or months for that matter, knocked on a few doors, and left. Were talking about a process that was thourghly planned out. The Dawes Act was passed in 1887. The main enrollment applications started in 1900, and they weren’t finalized until 6 years later in 1906. This is plenty of time to get the word out and enroll. While it is true that the Cherokee Nation opposed the policy of allotment and the Dawes Commission in the beginning, once it got started, it would have been pretty hard for a Cherokee not to hear about it, and not be enrolled, especially if they were living in a Cherokee community. Even for the “white mixed blood Cherokees” who took on the habits of “whites”, allotments would have been a strong incentive to enroll. So in reference to people having ancestors from Cherokee communities in Oklahoma that didn’t enroll and whose descendants aren’t eligible for Cherokee citizenship. Possible yes, but HIGHLY UNLIKELY.
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Blackwolf,
The Dawes went by direct descendants didn't it? I am having a hard time following you on these people having to take their entire families with them.
Isn't it said that some people might have had seen where they had great aunts or uncles on the rolls, but not their direct ancestor, therefore that made them not enrollable?
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Blackwolf,
The Dawes went by direct descendants didn't it? I am having a hard time following you on these people having to take their entire families with them.
Isn't it said that some people might have had seen where they had great aunts or uncles on the rolls, but not their direct ancestor, therefore that made them not enrollable?
Enrollment requirement for Citiesnshp in the Cherokee Nation is based on being of lineal descent of an Indian on the Dawes Roll. That’s true. What I was getting at was that if a Cherokee man or women left the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation and weren’t enrolled by Dawes, then if their parents or grandparents stayed behind in the Tribal boundaries, then even if they weren’t enrolled, their descendents would be eligible for enrollment because most likely their parents or grandparent that stayed behind in the CN were enrolled. As to the second part, yes that’s true. But let’s say you had a great aunt that was enrolled, but her brother who was your direct lineal ancestor wasn’t. If the Cherokee parent or parents of these brothers and sister were enrolled, then that would still be lineal descent and the descendents of the one that left could enroll.
Also, we have to assume that the brother or sister wasn’t a half brother or sister that was of non Cherokee ancestry. I know of cases like these. Let’s say both kids had the same white father, and one kid had a Cherokee mother and the other had a white mother. They would be half brothers or sisters where one would not be Cherokee. I’ve known of some people that don’t bother to check this and come to the wrong conclusion. But then again, I do know of some genuine cases of what you speak of. In the case you speak of, let’s say a Cherokee man leaves the Cherokee Nation with his mother and father, or for whatever reason they didn’t enroll in Dawes either or died, and one sister stayed behind and was enrolled by Dawes. That probably happened in some cases. That’s true RB.
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What if the Cherokee for some reason disowned a person and kicked them out. (do or did they ever do that?).. (is this a stupid question? if so.. sorry)
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Besides the Cherokees, The Dawes Rolls also enrolled Creeks, Choctaws, Chickasaws, and Seminoles, known collectively as the Five Civilized Tribes. It appears that some of the same issues that went on with Cherokee applications for Dawes also went on with the other Tribes. For example, as with the numerous FRAUDULENT claims of CHEROKEE HERITAGE in the hopes of getting an allotment or a monetary payout, there were also many FRAUDULENT CLAIMS OF CHOCTAW HERITAGE for some of the same reasons. Although there were some people with legitimate claims to Choctaw heritage who were rejected, it appears that most of the rejected claims were for non-Choctaw/non-Indians. You can find many cases of Whites, Blacks and Mulattos being rejected by the Dawes Commission. If one examines some of the rejected claims, you can see many Claimants were CLEARY REJECTED BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT CHOCTAW. If you look at the BIA PROPOSED FINDINGS AGAINST FEDERAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF THE MOWA BAND OF CHOCTAW INDIANS, even there you find many enrolled members of the MOWA Band of Choctaws using Rejected Dawes and Miller applications as proof of their heritage when is shows clearly that they were rejected because it was determined that they were not of Choctaw heritage. The evidence shows that many claimants of Choctaw heritage today are descended from these people whose Dawes applications were rejected.
The Dawes Commission rejected nearly two-thirds of the applications for enrollment. Those who were rejected also have census cards and application jackets available for research. NARA's Fort Worth facility has indexes available on microfilm for those rejected as Cherokee or Choctaw. Fort Worth also has the applications of those who applied to the Dawes Commission in 1896, all of which were declared invalid.
http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/tutorial/dawes/rolls-index.html (http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/tutorial/dawes/rolls-index.html)
http://www.archives.gov/southwest/index.html (http://www.archives.gov/southwest/index.html)
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By the time the official Choctaw Nation rolls were ordered closed on March 4th, 1907, some 25,000 personas had applied for identification as Mississippi Choctaw, but fewer then, 1,700 had been accepted. Thousands of Blacks, Whites, and mixed bloods had been denied identification, P 21.
In 1908 the Choctaw council had warned that many non-Choctaw, including “Mexicans, Creoles, Dagoes, and Indians of other Tribes,” were claiming to be Choctaw in order to obtain a portion of the tribal funds that still remained after allotment, p 21.
It should also be stated that the Choctaws also appear to be pretty well documented like the Cherokees. Also, the Choctaw Nation based in Oklahoma bases enrollment on being a lineal descendent of a Choctaw Indian on the Dawes Roll.
http://www.choctawnation.com/ (http://www.choctawnation.com/)
As of now, there are 201, 463 enrolled Choctaw Citizens worldwide not including the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians and the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians, the only other two Federally Recognized Choctaw Tribes. The Choctaw Nation has a liberal enrollment policy, like the Cherokee Nation. So, with that said, no one is denied enrollment in the Choctaw Nation because of a low Blood Quantum, but because they can’t prove their ancestry from a Choctaw ancestor listed on the Dawes Roll. Or in a minority of cases, they can prove their Choctaw ancestry, but their ancestors were rejected for some other reason.