NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: critter - a white non-ndn person on October 19, 2009, 03:16:42 pm
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Hi,
Reading here, and also having met peoples in life, I have a question. First, want state that I am not looking for you to go into details on your beliefs, or divulge or whatever, I'm just basically looking for a yes/no answer. It is a question I've had for some time now...
Does the NA NDN belief beat the same note as the nuage Christian in regards to God? I read things, have heard things said that sound to me, as a replacement or substitution of the word God or Jesus in the NA NDN belief. What I mean is, what is said if used the word God or Jesus, wouldn't be any different.
Is this right? Or is that the sign of a nuage misconception?
Thank you!~ :)
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I am unsure of what you are talking about??
what is a nuage Christian?
Are you asking what we called God?
Each tribe has their own language and
their own word for the creator.
Do we believe in jesus?
We do not have that concept in our beliefs.
Do we think it is the same thing?
The same as what i would have to ask?
There is only one creator.
I read things, have heard things said that sound to me, as a replacement or substitution of the word God or Jesus in the NA NDN belief. What I mean is, what is said if used the word God or Jesus, wouldn't be any different.
I don't really know what you are talking about?
In our way of life we do not replacement or substitution anything.
Our ways are older than jesus christ belief.
We don't have a belief of a son of god.
We have always known that we have a relationship with
God or as we say the Great Mystery-Wakan Tanka
We know that we are all related so we call the Great Mystery
Grandfather-Tunkshiela
I am not sure if this is what you want to know because i
never heard of nuage Christian.
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Hi,
Sorry I was unclear or vague. :)
What I mean by nuage Christian is the transition of Christian thought that what is in your heart is what matters, not if you are Christian or Pagan, or Hindu or NDN or whatever belief system a person follows. There are many nuage peoples who believe in the Bible to some extent, believe in Christianity to some extent, believe in Jesus, but broaden it to fit a more open landscape.
Then I read of someone talking as though they are ndn, and saying things that, if they substituted the words Wakan Tanka for God or Jesus, it would be the same as the Christian ideal.
I get confused, seriously, by this. I think it was 'Redthunder' in the thread about the PA AIM chapter his last post, when I read it, it's like I am reading Christianity with substituted words. This is what I am meaning, it is confusing to me, so I understand if what I am asking is unclear and not answerable due to the confusion present in my mind as I try to ask...
It is not just here though, where I have come across this, confusion, where one belief system seems to cross into the other. Where when talking about Wakan Tanka, they could just as easily be saying God or Jesus.
My question is basically this: Is the 'real' ndn belief ie: before Christians stole people and beat their beliefs out of them, (or tried to).. is that belief still intact and is this "christainism" I seem to see, not real, but an influence, or perhaps just a sign of the nuage (christian) belief that is incorrect in regards to ndn beliefs?
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My question is basically this: Is the 'real' ndn belief ie: before Christians stole people and beat their beliefs out of them, (or tried to).. is that belief still intact and is this "christainism" I seem to see, not real, but an influence, or perhaps just a sign of the nuage (christian) belief that is incorrect in regards to ndn beliefs?
There is no one Native American belief. Each tribe has their own beliefs.
People posting on this forum come from a variety of cultures.
Some Native people's beliefs show parallels to Christianity, or other religions. Others do not. Some people on the Internet speak from a pan-Indian perspective, and make broad generalizations about Indian beliefs that in many cases are not accurate for traditional cultures.
Most traditional people will not go into details about their ceremonies and beliefs on the Internet. So on the Internet you will hear a lot of pan-Indian generalizations, and as often as not, they are not coming from Indians.
As far as how much any tribe's beliefs and practices may or may not have changed since exposure to Christianity, you're going to have to listen, in-depth, to the history of that particular people, if they are willing to talk to you about it.
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I confess I don't entirely understand your question, but the habit of trying to shoehorn very different religious ideas into ill-fitting pre-existing concepts is, to my mind, the hallmark of Newage thinking. Those Newagers who call themselves "Christian" usually follow some form of "esoteric Christianity", a term which implies that Christ's true teachings were revealed and passed down only to a select worthy few, and hidden from the masses, and that complete salvation comes through knowledge of these secret teachings. Technically, this is the heresy of Gnosticism (salvation through special knowledge). Newagers also almost unanimously share the Gnostic teaching that the physical, material world is something to escape, transcend, or permanently evolve beyond. I'm not altogether sure of the history of the Newage esoteric Christianity, I'm pretty sure Rudolph Steiner had a hand in it, and Elizabeth Claire Prophet's group is a major player these days.
The Newage idea of Christ is usually some kind of "cosmic Christ", which has next to nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth, except incidentally. They usually see Jesus as similar to how the Muslims see him (one in a line of prophets), or how the Hindus see him (a divine incarnation, but again one of many rather than unique), or how Buddhists see him (an enlightened being whose teachings are valuable, but again one in a very long chorus line of enlightened beings). Other Newagers have other, more, um, original ideas about it, but they almost all think that Christ is one of many teachers/prophets/masters, and that all ideas of God from all over the world can in interpreted as local manifestations of one single idea of Divine Being (theirs, of course). All religions are really "one" (theirs), the differences from one to another being only a matter of details - names, symbols, actions, etc.
It's not surprising therefore when they try to say that the Creator that the Native Americans believe in, is "really" that same single Divine Being (the one that they believe in), and that when they dress up in their buckskins, beads, and feathers, smudge with sage, and build medicine wheels, use crystals to align the chakras, do sweat lodges and vision quests, and carry around their pipes, they are really just worshiping that single Divine Being, and who cares about the details, as long as it's from the heart (or, worse, as long as it "feels right")?
earthw7 gave a very good outline of a traditional point of view, and members of other tribes may state their beliefs differently. Most of the Indians I've known are at least nominally Christians (Baptists, mostly, and a few Holiness and other Evangelicals, but not one "estoteric Christian" among them). How they harmonize Christianity with traditional practices, I don't know, and it's not my business to know. There is no one Native American religion, just as there is no one Christianity. All religions do have important concepts in common, because there is only one kind of human being, and everyone pretty much agrees that you should believe in God and the teachings of his representatives (whoever they are), be honest, don't steal, support your family and community even if it's personally inconvenient, respect your elders, control your passions, and so on. But the details are different, and they're important, and we just can't throw them out for the sake of some contemporary idea of super-religion.
I tend to be a bit conservative in these matters, in that we should follow the religion we are born into as well as we can, with simple faith and humility, trust in our elders, and a good sense of living productively in the world. Some of us, myself included, have found ourselves led elsewhere, and that is good as long as it's done with a great deal of listening and thinking and asking questions. But it's never a good idea to make up our own religion out of bits of this and scraps of that, or to follow someone who does, just because it "feels right", or because we're dissastisfied with the "same old thing" we grew up with. Any "new" religion has to be rooted in centuries of teachings and living traditions (Jesus was a well-educated Jew; the Protestant Reformers stood on the shoulders of giants, theologically; even the Buddha started out as a fairly traditional Hindu ascetic).
It may be true that all paths lead eventually to the same mountaintop, but not all paths are equally safe. Blazing your own trail or following the road less traveled may get you to the top of the mountain, or you may fall off a cliff before you get there.
??? um, well, there I go again, I hope this helped to answer your question somewhat. If not, well, then never mind. ::)
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Thanks earthw7, Kathryn, and uktena.
I do know that there are differences in ndn culture to beliefs.
At one time, those beliefs were new, but it's been so long now, that they are now old.
No, not saying I agree with newage thinking/ways.. I believe what a person believes and holds sacred is what they should believe and hold sacred. And that it's wrong for someone to come along and act as though they know what those beliefs are. And mimic it and pretend they are 'living' the way of another ... while in reality, they are not, and are confused.
I have serious issues with Christianity because it's like they have forgotten or perhaps just have chosen to ignore their past. And make claims on other religions .. such as muslim.. to be hateful or something, when in their own books, the same hatred exists. Point it out to them and they get all offended, well, it's in your book of Bible. Why get mad at me for it?
I wasn't raised with any religion or beliefs. I had experiences, and no context to put them into. I'm still like that I guess. I do 'feel' things, but it is not an emotional feeling. Emotions can be misleading, as can the mind. I once learned how to live not by emotion or mind, but by something else, that didn't have much to do with me. But as I have no religious context, there isn't any real way to talk of it without sounding like an idiot. :)
No, not looking to replace my belief or non belief with someone else's belief .. that's not who I am. I just want my belief back.. I want my way back for me.. to live.. it is so difficult because of the things I've been through the last 10 years or so.
It's as though I was someone to myself, and now, I'm not. In the end it was my fault for having trusted someone when warning flags were up.. I understand what it is to be spiritually damaged. Now, I just have to figure out how to get 'me' back to well.. to wherever that is.
Some can say it was karma or whatever other thing they want to say. To me, it has been only one thing. The complete striping away of me.
I'm not a trail blazer and have no desire to start a religion or have people agree with me or have people believe what I believe. I just want to have that connection I had before..
The woman who said she was shaman, it wasn't so much that she was so wrong about everything.. it was also that she continued to strip me down.. whether consciously doing so or not, I don't know. But I will have nothing to do with her at all. I have no trust, in anything anymore. None. And often feel I've failed at even being alive. But it doesn't rule me anymore, so I am getting better.. sort of like learning to walk with a cane.. :) LOL
Anyway, this is far off from my intentional question. I just wanted to know if some of the people I've met/read/heard who speak of Wankan Tanka in a way that makes it sound like God/Jesus of the Bible is really what ndn (broad general sense) believe.
I think I've found my answer to that.. and the answer is No. So thank you. :)
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Oh Ok
It is really hard for me because i don't believe in jesus
it is not a part of my spiritual beliefs,
I am not saying it is wrong
just that it is not within our belief system.
I never heard esoteric Christianity so i learned something new.
I though all the christain were the same.
Native people have been though different force assimailation which
left our people in different stages so some still hold on to the tradtional belief
some have accepted part of the christian world and native world or mixed them
with the belief that there is one god. Some have become full pledge christians
it goes back to what your family taught you if you were taken from your family
and put in boarding school.
We have no shamans so that would be your frist clue, second a nation never adopts anyone and lets them run ceremonies
We are taught never follow a man or woman for they are imprefect always follow Wakan Tanka
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Well, to be fair, she first said she was shaman, then changed it to some word that starts with an A I believe, but can't remember it anymore. It sounded almost Chinese or something, she is of Cherokee.
Also, she was never my 'teacher'. She said she couldn't teach and be a friend.. since I knew she didn't have many friends I told her I was choosing to be her friend. And so that's where we started, but she still 'taught' me things in some ways... but I was never her 'student' so no, never did her 'lessons' or anything of that sort. We were 'friends' for about 7 maybe 8 years.
She wasn't adopted by the nation. One of her parents were ndn, can't recall all of it.. but was abusive.. she was adopted to a white family, but has siblings on a rez in Arizona.
I do not blame her for what happened to 'me'. What I do not accept is the attitude that one is above reproach and never apologizing for being wrong, even when it cost the life of my cat... for having not listened, and for treating me in a wrong way.
But.. what was 'happening' to 'me' 'specifically' was not her doing, or her fault...
We never discussed 'religion' .. the ndn religion.. she never did ceremony.. and she does not go around advertising to get followers.
There are some things I stated here but have decided it is personal, and although I believe she is a confused person in many ways'.. I'm not going to put her 'stuff' up on a board.. it's not right to do that.
I know I have stated she has been part of what has spiritually damaged me and this is true, but it is not for public.
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There are no Cherokee reservations in Arizona. At best your friend is very confused. Not someone to look to in spiritual matters AT ALL. These kind of folks can mess with your head, you can get pulled into their own confusion. I commend you for your compassion, though. It's good you are stepping back, I think.
Just some thoughts.
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Thanks. No, not a Cherokee rez in AZ.. no, but living on a Rez in AZ.
:) I already changed what I posted, was afraid someone would 'qoute' the whole thing and then it would never be retractable. Her confusion isn't her fault.. and I understand that, and I have no desire to take a person down, or hurt them more than they are already. She is a good person at heart.
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Well, to be fair, she first said she was shaman, then changed it to some word that starts with an A I believe, but can't remember it anymore. It sounded almost Chinese or something....
Ummm, Angakok (http://www.astronomy.pomona.edu/archeo/alaska/eskimo.html) ?
That's an Inuit/Eskimo term, which isn't right for Cherokee, but it's what comes to mind from your description.
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Hi, thanks. No, that is not it. If anything, it'd be a Cherokee word. She knew or was learning or re-learning the language. I am not doubting her heritage, and as far as I know she never did any of the things I have read on this board that would be like a betrayal to ndn culture and belief.
She just wasn't very good with me. Maybe there is reason for this, I really don't know. I wasn't with her looking to learn culture or beliefs, I was there to be friends. I had/have my own way of doing things, my own way of belief, not interested in 'adopting' someone else's.
My own way tells me that when a person is a healer, whether called healer, shaman, medicine person, witch doctor or even psychologist or MD, that they are to put their opinions at the door and meet the person they are working with/on with out what they 'think' 'opinion' .. otherwise, they are only seeing what they think, and perhaps not what is really going on.. That's what I believe, and that is not what she did. Being vulnerable this treatment or 'non' treatment was damaging to me. And left me unable to trust my own inner workings, or the force I call Spirit.
Today is the first day I have begun to feel that there may be a reason for this happening, before today, I simply just felt betrayed by the force I call Spirit.
I think, and I could be completely wrong too.. but I think whatever I am reading on these forums is helping me in some way. I don't know how or why.. but I am thankful for it.
I also want to tell you that when I did sweats, it was nearly 20 years ago. I am not young, I am almost 50 now. I did with the Menominee, for a year, maybe a little more. It ended when I did a solo thing, and was shown the door within 15 minutes. It was not my road to take and I respect that. I was there for healing, not for my life's road.
I also know that I know nothing of ndn culture (other than obvious general facts) or beliefs at any deeper level and don't pretend to. Those people were gracious to/with me, I would never betray that. I remember those sweats like they were yesterday, and they are dear to me, as are the people who allowed me into their private ritual. It was not an open to the public thing. The first thing I was told there, was never to pay for a sweat lodge. They are good people, and I have nothing but love and respect for them and the lodge. I've probably said this more than once here, but it is fact, and important to me. Especially after reading so much here.
I can be stupid, and will probably say stupid things from time to time.. but it isn't from a lack of respect.. it's just ignorance.
Thank you.
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"I think, and I could be completely wrong too.. but I think whatever I am reading on these forums is helping me in some way. I don't know how or why.. but I am thankful for it."
I think it's just the good dose of reality found here... :)
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I think it's just the good dose of reality found here..
You said it! I'm a kind of head-in-the-clouds type myself, and I'm mostly self-educated, which means I've had an ignoramus for a teacher and a nincompoop for a student. ;D I've only been posting here a couple of days, and already I've had a few of my ideas taken to task by people on this board who are more experienced and better educated than me, not to mention better writers. I've noticed that the Newagers who show up here don't last very long, because, unlike on the forums they're probably used to, around here if your feet start leaving the ground, you can bet someone, more likely two or three, will pull you back down to earth very quickly. And if the landing hurts a little, well, wake up and smell the coffee. :D
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Well, I'm learning something new here. Called 'culture'. And I'm beginning to think that the main problem with nuagers is lack of culture. I'm understanding 'culture' as something that is traditional and goes back many generations and is carried forward by many generations. I do not see where modern America has any kind of culture. Every time I'd hear 'American culture' I did not know what was being said, did not understand the terms. I think this is because it isn't. What would it be? Fast food? But 100 years ago, it wasn't Fast Food. So where is the culture? There isn't any. There is no real 'American Culture' the words remain empty and vague to me.
So, not knowing what 'cullture' is... I've been reading with interest about culture on this forum. And then looking at the behavior of the nuagers. They, like me, do not understand 'culture', and therefore, have no point of reference, or understanding of what it is they are doing by mimicking what is not theirs. I mean, that is only one part of it. There are of course the predators, but I'm speaking about the more common seeker who is missing something .. therefore.. seeking. Perhaps what they are missing is culture, and the sense of belonging to such culture. It is sad to see so many empty people seeking.. and believing that by mimicking the rituals of another culture, they will somehow fill the emptiness.
Or.. worse yet.. demanding entrance and belonging to a culture that is not their own. It is like starving people trying to force their way to someone's dinner table, never realizing they already have their own table of food.. and are simply blind to it because they do not understand, or bother to look at the food that is on their own table. Or something like that.. as some have said, they are lazy and instead of seeking their own .. they go take someone else's. For me, the question is.. why are they blind to their own ? And I think it is because their 'culture' was lost.. in the melting pot of America and even Europe..
The various cultures of modern day Americans (and Europeans?) have not been handed down for generations, but lost .. the chain of handing over the culture to the next generation has been broken.
and I think it is right for the ndn to protect their culture at all costs so they do not end up like the blind who are demanding a seat at their dinner table.. with no manners I might add...
Well, I continue now to just read here.. it is interesting..
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Thank you, i like the way you put your thought into words i understand.
It is like starving people trying to force their way to someone's dinner table, never realizing they already have their own table of food.. and are simply blind to it because they do not understand, or bother to look at the food that is on their own table.
I live among my culture I see it everyday it is what I know,
it is what make me understand the world. It is hard sometime
to constantly explain to people who we are and what we believe.
I am not a capitist it is not my culture, I am Native to this land
I love this land but i know the history of the land, i tell people that
roots grow right out of my feet. The we way we pray to our relative
is the center who we are.
I was told a story a long time ago..............................................
They said that each people were given a ceremony to do across the world
to keep everything in balance, then a new age came where this ideal of
jesus spread and left the world without the ceremonies that must be done
each culture that hang on to their ways still did the ceremonies but
it became hard for the cultures that remained. Those that remined had
to pray more for the balance in the Mother earth. That is what we are doing.
Those who are lost and have no balance are now coming and corrupting the ceremonies
the new agers which will cause only more unbalanced in the world they said..............
This was a story told at an elders gathering around my part of the country
of course i shorten it and did not tell the whole thing because it is not my place too.
this is what I see
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Thanks, I'm glad you can understand what I write! :)
I agree on that story. I have a real issue with the "Christian" religion. One reason (i have many) is because of how they decimated so many peoples, and yet, they deny. There are quotes in Bible that state specifically to 'kill anyone who does not believe". But then they swapped books so I guess the 'word of God' in one book is not the word of God in the 2nd or 3rd or however many books they have rewritten.
My personal belief is that there is going to be much chaos in this as the religion falls, and we see this as many 'new age' Christians begin to 'awaken' (for lack of better word) to the reality that decimating cultures (as well as many other aspects of this belief) is not a right thing to do. The deep evangelist is going to fight to the bitter end, and we see this in our politics now, but it (imo) will become much worse. The wars between the religions will escalate, unfortunately, and the war in America will be also of this. It will not surprise me if the ndn cultures in America go deeply underground, hidden. In fact, may be the best thing to do.
The religious Reicht has already removed from U.S. courts the civil rights of 'religious discrimination' by making it impossible to fight unless you are very wealthy, unlike other protected civil rights. Also, the U.S. dept of Agriculture has removed 'religion' from the list of protected civil rights on their documents.
What this means, is when people begin to realize their 'religious' rights in this country have been compromised..well, it will be war of one kind or another. But, I also have hope that it will not come to such as that. Just depends on really, who gets in charge of the country, for now, with Obama Administration, I am not worried of more religious rights being removed.
I am hopeful that the ndn's of the world who have been able to keep their culture thus far will continue to do so. There are many tribes not just here, but in the Amazon for example, or Africa, world wide.. and although I'm not knowledgeable on all this, I have to believe they will and you will all hold strong while this mess plays itself out.
I think that as more people move away from the Christian doctrines, they will come more so to the ndn or any other indigenous way, as their religion has failed them. They will seek.
It is my hope that they find something more true to their own being, and in that.. balance with the world again... leaving the ndn cultures to their own. Stop mixing and matching..
But I just don't know what they can find. If they want to believe in crystals, and dragons.. that is fine as long as they do not mix in ndn culture where it doesn't belong. I mean, find something that suits their own way, of itself, by itself. I don't know what that is, or what it could be, but I have to believe they will find it at some point in time. And I also think this is why it is so easy for people like James Ray to create cults.. proclaiming it's the 'way'. Because this general population is in dire need of a 'way'.
But, right now, all I see is a really big mess with no clarity.. just confusion. It is not so easy for millions of displaced peoples (those who've lost their culture) to just go back to their genealogy and pick up the culture's of their ancestors when most of those cultures are truly gone, due to the mass decimation that took place.
People stranded in the ocean begin to drink the salt water, even though they know it will make them crazy.
However, I don't believe in 'saviors'. I understand, stranded in the ocean a person waits to be saved.. but comes a time when you have to begin to swim on your own... :)
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I want to add that I don't believe religion by itself is a 'culture'. Religion exists within a culture, is part of a culture, or a culture can be created out of a religion...but by itself, it is not a culture.