NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: qirin on November 22, 2008, 08:59:18 pm
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An Open Letter to NAFPS
I am posting this letter here despite the fact that I run the risk of being ignored and accused of being a troll, because I think what I have to say is valid. I say what I have to say out of a genuine desire for mutual understanding, not to provoke anger.
Let me begin by saying that I am not defending people like Carlos Castaneda, Alberto Villoldo, Maria Yraceburu et al. who misrepresent themselves as emissaries of cultures they have no connection to. I do not support cultural imperialism, the selling of other people's cultures, charlatanry and the exploitation of people's naivety, depression and desire for meaning.
What I am is a "New Ager??? who finds a lot of things on this site and in these discussions extremely troubling. I haven't read the entire contents of the board, and so some of what I say here may have been answered in other places, and if so I apologize. However, I feel that I do have the right to defend what is essentially my own personal cultural tradition.
First off, I object to the spelling "nuager," and the equation of the New Age with fraud. Are you making a pun on the word "nuage," French for cloud? New Agers are frequently accused of being vacuous, so you should be aware of the association. But whatever the case, by creating a parody of a term that has been applied to us by other people (we usually call ourselves spiritualists, pagans, magicians, neo-shamans, heathens, wiccans, Christians, psychics, mystics, healers, occultists, hippies, ravers, sanguinarians, otherkin, starseeds and so on), you have in essence coined a derogatory epithet for us. Personally I find that offensive.
New Agers are members of a loose knit post-Christian religious tradition of European origin that draws heavily on folk beliefs and magical practices, as well as medieval hermeticism. Although it is difficult to characterize the New Age because it is an eclectic movement, we can point to four universals: the belief that all humans are latently psychic, meaning they can develop abilities that lie outside everyday experience; the belief that consciousness is a form of energy that animates all living organisms, and that this energy can be felt and manipulated; the belief in invisible beings, which may actually exist or may be parts of ourselves, that can be contacted using divination tools and non-ordinary states of consciousness; and the belief that history is on the verge of or has entered into a new epoch (the "New Age") that is heralded by a democratization of spiritual powers (meaning they are no longer the exclusive purview of a select few) and cataclysmic social and political change.
Frequently these beliefs are held together by the conception of the natural world as divine; of the universe as the literal body of God (“panentheism???); or a kind of non-exclusive monotheism (as in the Japanese “new religion??? Oomoto-kyo) which sees all beings and divinities as part of a single intelligence, often referred to as "Spirit." Other common beliefs include synchronicity (which predates Jung and in fact derives at least in part from the New England colonists’ practice of interpreting the events of one's life through bible stories), astrology, sympathetic magic, divination, and meditation as a path to spiritual enlightenment.
While it's a common perception that New Age-ism is a twentieth century phenomenon, that is not at all accurate. Our traditions can be traced back to many sources. Some of our foundational influences include Meister Eckhart, Emanuel Swedenborg, Mary Baker Eddy, Saint Francis, Paracelsus, Franz Mesmer and William Blake. The Neo-Platonism of Percy Shelly. Baudelaire’s hedonistic cosmology. Folk traditions like bibliomancy, table knocking and possession by the Holy Spirit. Spiritualism from Hebrew rabbinical tradition and alchemy from Greece and Mesopotamia. In Colonial America, lay people accused their black servants of practicing “voodoo,??? but the construction of poppets and similar charms actually derives from European folk magic. These forms of witchcraft, along with other black magic practices like forging “agreements??? with Satan and reading bible passages backwards, were largely practiced by unhappy white settlers, and have mingled with the more aristocratic traditions of alchemy and hermetics to form the occult foundation of the New Age.
A key change, of course, occurred during the era of “the moderns??? (1875-1914), when H.P. Blavatsky began introducing Hindu cosmology to the New Age. Subsequently, the idea of syncretism was born and other teachers began appropriating beliefs from China and Tibet and ultimately from Native American traditions. The point I am trying to make is that we are part of a tradition that predates Blavatsky. Most of what modern "plastic shamans" sell as native tradition is really European in origin. What you overlook is that these disguised European beliefs form a coherent system that is itself an authentic spiritual tradition.
As for accusations of charlatanry, they are valid only from within the conceptual framework of modern science and biomedicine. Sure, there's no concrete evidence to support faith healing, Tarot reading, astral projection or alien abduction. But from a biomedical standpoint, most traditional medicine is also "fraudulent," including the practices of Native Americans. You could say, with equal irrelevance, that the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is form of charlatanry. Likewise, many of the progenitors of the New Age were racists and confidence men. But from a modern standpoint the Aztecs were also racists and their leaders confidence men. And the Christians, whom some of your users seem to think represent the real Euramerican cultural legacy, waged genocide against the arabs and the Native Americans. That strikes me as a little more extreme than Rudolf Steiner writing about the virtues of the Germanic people. At least he had the sense to skip town when the Nazis started killing people.
In reality, the philosophical origin of syncretism (a.k.a. cultural imperialism) lies not with Blavatsky, but in the Scientific Enlightenment. The Scientific Enlightenment taught that we should examine our cultural traditions critically with an eye towards mechanistic verifiability. This ultimately led to the practice of ethno-botany, where Euramerican scientists study indigenous people in order to synthesize new chemical compounds out of their traditional medicines (a practice that, from the comments I read in the ayahuasca thread, I imagine many of you object to). In a way, New Age syncretism is like a twisted form of Spiritual ethno-botany, seeking to extract the "spiritual essence" from the cultural traditions of other people.
What all of this means is that ultimately what is wrong with the New Age is what is wrong with the world as a whole. There are a lot of bad actors out there, both those who defraud Native Americans by stealing their traditions and those who defraud consumers by selling them fantastical beliefs and phony healings. But the New Age is, like it or not, an intrinsic part of the global Euramerican culture. In many ways, it is the New Age, not Christianity, that is the authentic spiritual tradition of white people. While wicca itself may be an artifact of the modern era, there is a magico-religious tradition in Europe, largely Christian in its presuppositions but also influenced by sympathetic magic and pre-Christian religions, from which the modern “New Age??? material largely derives. Thus while criticism of New Age appropriation of other cultures is certainly valid, criticism of the New Age as such is not, at least not more so than any other religion.
That said, I would like to make another important point. The situation of Native Americans with regard to fraud and exploitation is not a unique one. As the existence of Tibet became well known in the early part of the twentieth century, people all over the world tried to capitalize on its reputation as a center of spiritual enlightenment. Not the least was Blavatsky's follower Alice Bailey, who claimed to be in contact with a Tibetan master. Yet despite this fakery, the Tibetan people have largely overcome attempts at appropriation. They have done this not by establishing a bureau of the Tibetan government to police authentic Tibetan teachings, but rather by making knowledge of Tibetan culture so readily available that anyone who cares can learn to distinguish fraud from genuine article.
Like those of Native Americans, traditional Tibetan religious practices are very secretive. Tibetans have kept the esoteric core of their practices out of the public eye, but both Tibetan authors and Euramerican authors working with the cooperation of Tibetans have produced a monumental body of work about the non-secretive, linguistic and artistic components of Tibetan culture. Perhaps some of the energy that you are all investing in making sure we know what is NOT authentic Native American culture would be better spent doing the opposite, teaching us what is. It is more effective to respond to our ignorance by educating us than by calling us names.
My whole life I had been skeptical towards any New Age teachers or materials that claimed a link to Native American traditions. But I met a number of bona fide Native Americans (one of them a friend of Maria Yraceburu) who believed that “Native American traditions??? could be fruitfully blended with Taoism and the Egyptian pantheon. When I read Mehl Madrona’s Coyote Medicine, I found that his description of what he called the “Native American cosmology??? precisely matched the worldview I have held since I was a child. I met a couple of Native Americans who called themselves shamans and who readily encouraged white people to learn about these evidently fraudulent practices. I decided, finally, to do some investigating. And came across this site, which basically confirmed what I had thought before, that Native American traditions do not mix with New Age practices and beliefs.
I am perfectly happy to learn that. I have no interest in appropriating your culture, just as I have no interest in pretending to be a phony Tibetan sorcerer or in converting to authentic Tibetan Buddhism. I would, however, be happy to learn about your people and their traditions. I recognize, of course, that I have no right to demand that from you, but I suggest a) that trying to attain greater visibility of your authentic cultural practices would be a more effective means of educating Euramericans than creating a website devoted to unmasking fakers and ridiculing people who are acting largely out of ignorance; and b) that you make more of an effort to understand our traditions before you call us “fake??? and “plastic.???
Throughout your site, people privilege the notion of authentic cultural traditions, and suggest that if we whites desire spirituality we should look into our own ancestral traditions, Christian or pagan. But that devalues our own experience of being spiritual ‘orphans,’ people who have been cut off from tradition and must recreate meaning in our own lives. Many of you seem to look on this ‘orphan’ state as a personal failing and the cause of the emptiness of our lives (when in fact it is a symptom of that emptiness), not to mention a slight against our ancestors and a refusal of our duties as children. However, this search for meaning was not chosen, but thrust upon us by our dismal, materialistic, information-saturated lives. That meaning will not be found in a return to the reactionary and patriarchal traditions of our roots, but through a reinvigoration of what is essential and good in humanity. That is what motivates the admittedly misguided search for secrets in “shamanism??? and Native American religions; people are looking for wisdom from a time before humanity became corrupted by greed. Unfortunately that time, if it exists at all, does so only in some possible future.
As I close, I want to touch on a few other points about syncretism.
1) 'Authenticity' is a modern concept. All cultures are syncretic.
No culture ever exists in a vacuum, and history shows us time and time again that cultures borrow from one another without apologies. Conquerors usurp the culture of the conquered, and sometimes borrow it. Cultures evolve constantly, and what is seen as 'new fangled' or 'revisionist' becomes canonical in a few hundred years.
2) 'Spirit' itself plays fast and loose.
Some of us feel ourselves to be in contact with transcendent entities on a frequent basis, and receive messages from those entities. Those messages often include symbolism borrowed from all sorts of cultures, and weave these things together in bizarre and often insightful ways. Spirit rarely speaks to us in the way that we wish to be spoken to. It shows little respect for our personal idiosyncrasies and pet ideas. Often it shows little regard for human morals, laws, cultures and even human life. Yet we know we are bound to it by duty and by oath. If spirit presents itself to us in forms that are "stolen," why shouldn't we simply accept those appearances and do its work? If your people preserve practices that venerate the spirits in ways that are hundreds of years old, but we venerate those same spirits in ways they taught us yesterday, which practice is more authentic?
In the case of, for instance, ayahuasca, one board member repeatedly said "this is not your people's medicine." Well, what about Santo Daime? Is it their medicine? Meister Irineu was black, and no one knows if any authentic indigenous people gave him permission to use the daime. But his church has become a living part of modern Brazilian culture, and there is unquestionable value in that.
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Many "pagans ... heathens ... Christians" would be quite offended at your calling them "New Age". By any spelling.
Voudoun is not "New Age" either. But all of the above traditions are ripped off by Nuagers. And the situation has degraded to the point that there *are* nuagers who call themselves those things - much to the dismay of the traditionals in those communities.
The bottom line of the New Age is eclecticism, and the belief in a "personal spirituality" that is accountable to no one but the conscience (or lack thereof) of the individual seeker. This stands in stark contrast with the structures of traditional cultures and religions, which are community based and, well, traditional.
I'm not trying to insult you here, but it seems clear to me that, while you seem to have read about *some* of the movements you mention here, you aren't familiar enough with any of the community-based, indigenous ones to comment on them.
And I doubt many people here are particularly interested in your trying to give some dignity to a movement that at its core is based on cultural theft and the willful ignorance of, and violation of, the standards of the religions they steal from.
This is a site dedicated to fighting cultural appropriation, not defending it.
ETA: Most of what modern "plastic shamans" sell as native tradition is really European in origin. What you overlook is that these disguised European beliefs form a coherent system that is itself an authentic spiritual tradition.
No, eclectic conglomerations, whether based on out-of-context, half-understood fragments lifted from diverse European cultures and slammed together in a framework of fantasy, or upon out-of-context, totally-misunderstood fragments stolen from diverse Native American cultures and put in a foreign framework, are not "an authentic spiritual tradition." That approach lacks cultural and spiritual coherence. It lacks the organic power of tradition. It will be filled with internal conflicts. The extent to which it "works" for individual Nuagers is usually because they are simply self-hypnotizing into a state where they feel better about themselves; it is rare for that approach to make any genuine contacts with the spirits of anyone's ancestors or the lands where they live.
Changes that happen in cultures gradually, over many generations, after careful thought and consideration and consensus among elders of those cultures, can not be compared to the modern mercurial appropriation where people change religious approaches from year to year, even month to month, blending and remixing bits and pieces from radically different cultures at will.
Traditional religions and eclectic, individual spirituality are totally different animals.
E(A)TA: ... there is a magico-religious tradition in Europe, largely Christian in its presuppositions but also influenced by sympathetic magic and pre-Christian religions, from which the modern “New Age??? material largely derives.
No, the "New Age" material is a direct descendant of Christian Science, with a conglomeration of things from any culture that didn't defend itself staunchly enough or run away fast enough. The main religions stolen from for it's "foundations" are East Indian. "New Age" attitudes and approaches have no more to do with authentic European folk traditions than they do with Native American ones.
[I think this thread belongs in Etc, not Welcome and News]
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Many "pagans ... heathens ... Christians" would be quite offended at your calling them "New Age". By any spelling.
the point is that there are many people who call themselves christians, pagans and heathens who ALSO self-identify as new age. I do not self-identify as those things, and I am not defending that self-identification. I am just stating a fact.
to my knowledge, paganism and heathenism are reconstructed religions, not continuous traditional lineages. it was the work of new age scholars that sparked interest in the reconstruction of pagan and heathen religions. the people of scandinavia and the british isles had universally converted to christianity. and anyone who believes in the bible is a christian.
Voudoun is not "New Age" either.
I agree one hundred percent and I never said it was. you need to read my arguments more carefully.
The bottom line of the New Age is eclecticism, and the belief in a "personal spirituality" that is accountable to no one but the conscience (or lack thereof) of the individual seeker. This stands in stark contrast with the structures of traditional cultures and religions, which are community based and, well, traditional.
the essence of the argument I made was that the whole eclecticism thing is a more recent development, and that the core characteristics of new age spirituality, with the main exceptions of reincarnation and the chakra system, are derived from european occultism and not the religions that they purport to rip off. I am not defending the rip-offs, but the genuine article, which is a form of european and christian-derived occultism that does not wear anyone else's cultural trappings, e.g. belief in angel channeling, the golden dawn, astrology and astrological magic, chaos magic and so on. I call it "New Age" as a recognition of historical fact, that the present interest in this subject is the product of the new religion movements of the 1890s, 1920s and 1960s.
I'm not trying to insult you here, but it seems clear to me that, while you seem to have read about *some* of the movements you mention here, you aren't familiar enough with any of the community-based, indigenous ones to comment on them.
there's sufficient vitriol in your statements to make it clear that you _are_ trying to insult me. however, it doesn't seem like you fully read my argument. I did not comment on _any_ indigenous cultures, except for the briref mention of santo daime at the end. I once referenced the words pagan, christian and heathen, which seems to have set you off, but the bulk of my letter is about european occultism and nothing else. and that is a subject with which I have a deep familiarity, communally and academically.
And I doubt many people here are particularly interested in your trying to give some dignity to a movement that at its core is based on cultural theft and the willful ignorance of, and violation of, the standards of the religions they steal from.
at its core the new age is NOT based on cultural theft but on european mysticism, and accusing ALL new agers of cultural appropriation is biased and offensive.
This is a site dedicated to fighting cultural appropriation, not defending it.
I am not defending cultural appropriation. I never once said that any of the things you people object to on this site is okay. I did in a couple of places point to the faultiness of the logic some of the people here use.
"New Age" attitudes and approaches have no more to do with authentic European folk traditions than they do with Native American ones.
that's untrue. the main european folk magic traditions that were brought to the united states involved the construction of charms (i.e. sympathetic magic), herbalism and the construction of sachets, prayer to specific saints for specific purposes, astrology, bibliomancy, scriptural interpretation of events, and various forms of black magic. these practices are well documented, in fact colonial americans were a profoundly spiritual and magic-oriented people.
you are also overlooking the influence of mesmer and swedenborg, who have more to do with modern energy work than chinese medicine. christian science is just one piece among many.
the single biggest influence on modern new age thought after blavatsky and maybe paramahansa yogananda was aleister crowley, and crowley's work is derived from masonry and the various quasi-rosicrucian organizations of 19th century france.
That approach lacks cultural and spiritual coherence. It lacks the organic power of tradition. It will be filled with internal conflicts. The extent to which it "works" for individual Nuagers is usually because they are simply self-hypnotizing into a state where they feel better about themselves; it is rare for that approach to make any genuine contacts with the spirits of anyone's ancestors or the lands where they live.
this is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about when I said I find a lot of what people say on this board insulting. here you are imposing your own definition of "spiritual coherence" on a living religious tradition, judging our, as you put it, personal spiritual practice according to your norms. that's a pretty elitist attitude and it's not going to help you if your goal is to get new age people to stop appropriating your traditions.
my family is a-religious. the closest thing I have to a genuine religion is the new age, because it permeates my culture. I have worked long and hard to identify what is not appropriated in it (the european occultist strands) and what was willingly given (some of the yogic and buddhist material was brought to the united states by authentic teachers, not stolen. and many of those teachers are themselves syncretic, e.g. paramahansa yogananda)
you should try to understand why we have searched in the way we have, why we feel spiritually empty and how that motivates us in life instead of just judging and attacking us. that's my point.
I realize that the theft of indigenous spirituality is unjustifiable. I am NOT trying to defend it. what I am trying to say is that there are components to the New Age that have nothing to do with cultural appropriation, and there are people in that movement who are genuinely trying to work at the project of recreating community in our scattered society and who have no itnerest in ripping you off, and whose efforts you are merely belittling.
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... it was the work of new age scholars that sparked interest in the reconstruction of pagan and heathen religions.
Sorry, but that's just laughable. The only way that would makes sense would be if you're using "new age" to encompass every single member of a non-Abrahmic religion, which is an incorrect definition, and certainly not the way the term is used on this site, nor in the world at large.
I would also suggest that what you perceive as "vitriol" is simply the fact that I, like others, am tired of hearing these same old arguments. We've heard it all before. Though I do concede you're coming up with some even more far-fetched ones than even I've encountered.
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No culture ever exists in a vacuum, and history shows us time and time again that cultures borrow from one another without apologies. Conquerors usurp the culture of the conquered, and sometimes borrow it. Cultures evolve constantly, and what is seen as 'new fangled' or 'revisionist' becomes canonical in a few hundred years.
Conquest doesn't seem to bother you very much. It's not "borrowing." Since the day certain Caucasians invented the concept of whiteness, we have stolen things we don't understand because they look exotic and pretty to us, twisted them out of shape and thrown them on the ground when we were done playing with them. To call this borrowing and say it's OK is something like telling a rape victim she might as well lie back and enjoy it. You can't skip blithely over 500 years of history and then go on to demand that Native Americans show you what you're doing wrong by showing you what they do right. They've learned they have to hide the fine china when whitefolks come sniffing around, after all.
Nobody has a responsibility to teach you right from wrong. You have a responsibility to learn. You have a responsibility to develop your own shit detector and figure out how to avoid gurus. This is one place you can learn. Nobody has any obligation to put sugar in it for you.
Finally, to borrow a Neopagan phrase, your UPG (or "entity message") means nothing to me or to anybody else but you. It doesn't give you the right to do anything that demeans someone else's religion. Given a "spirit message" that Coyote wanted you to run into a Catholic church during Mass and crap on the altar, would you do so?
(And why are spirits that show "little regard for human life" worthy of human worship or contact?)
I'm a "spiritual orphan" too. I think this means it is up to me to find my own meaning in life. It's just as easy to do this in a respectful way as it is in a bad way. In fact it's easier, because my life has less meaning when I'm busy lying to myself by defending my mistreatment of others. "Borrowing" things without permission is part of a long "reactionary and patriarchal tradition." Running off to try something new because we don't want to clean up our mess is not breaking from that tradition but continuing it.
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Conquest doesn't seem to bother you very much.
nothing could be further from the truth. why do you think I came here in the first place? I discovered this site while I was trying to figure out of I was being lied to by some people, real living native americans, who were representing certain things to me as being their religion.
lots of indian gurus came to the united states from the 1950s and on to profit off us gullible new agers
To call this borrowing and say it's OK is something like telling a rape victim she might as well lie back and enjoy it.
when I wrote those words I was thinking more specifically of the transition of cultural artifacts between, for instance, the chinese and the koreans, or the mayans and the aztecs, or the romans and their conquered peoples.
You can't skip blithely over 500 years of history and then go on to demand that Native Americans show you what you're doing wrong by showing you what they do right. They've learned they have to hide the fine china when whitefolks come sniffing around, after all.
I don't disagree, but at this point I think hiding the china is making it easier for them to be exploited. I am not trying to skip blithely over anything.
Nobody has a responsibility to teach you right from wrong. You have a responsibility to learn.
that's an odd comment since everyone else around here are such staunch supporters of communalism. it is the responsibility of my society, my parents and my teachers to help me learn right from wrong.
You have a responsibility to develop your own shit detector and figure out how to avoid gurus. This is one place you can learn. Nobody has any obligation to put sugar in it for you.
no, but it would behoove people to realize that your definition of new age and my definition of new age might not be the same.
Given a "spirit message" that Coyote wanted you to run into a Catholic church during Mass and crap on the altar, would you do so?
no I would never do something like that, because I would never trust a spirit that told me to do something like that. but for someone else, who has been in contact with an entity for a long time, the situation could be different.
(And why are spirits that show "little regard for human life" worthy of human worship or contact?)
because the world doesnt revolve around us.
I'm a "spiritual orphan" too. I think this means it is up to me to find my own meaning in life.
that is exactly what I said in my long essay thing.
It's just as easy to do this in a respectful way as it is in a bad way. In fact it's easier, because my life has less meaning when I'm busy lying to myself by defending my mistreatment of others. It's "borrowing" things without permission that's part of a long "reactionary and patriarchal tradition," not running off to try something new because we don't want to clean up our mess.
I don't disagree with anything that you are saying.
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Sorry, but that's just laughable. The only way that would makes sense would be if you're using "new age" to encompass every single member of a non-Abrahmic religion, which is an incorrect definition, and certainly not the way the term is used on this site, nor in the world at large.
Margaret Murray, Gerald Gardner, Blavatsky's "Isis Unveiled." "the new age" is historically linked to theosophy and european occultism, and so anyone who takes inspiration from either of those sources counts as new age in my book. the only people I know of who don't fit the bill were the gaelic reconstructionists of the irish revolution, but its important to note that some of them (e.g. yeats) also belonged to the other camp.
We've heard it all before. Though I do concede you're coming up with some even more far-fetched ones than even I've encountered.
huh. well that's kind of rude. thanks for dismissing my heartfelt perspective and my life's work as being the same old crap. especially since, even if MOST of what I say is wrong, there is a genuine point underneath it all. anyway since obviously no one really cares I will go away soon.
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Margaret Murray, Gerald Gardner, Blavatsky's "Isis Unveiled"
Not Reconstructionists. To call them such shows you don't understand how the term is used in contemporary Polytheistic Reconstructionism.
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Margaret Murray, Gerald Gardner, Blavatsky's "Isis Unveiled"
Not Reconstructionists. To call them such shows you don't understand how the term is used in contemporary Polytheistic Reconstructionism.
I wasn't calling them reconstructionists, I was calling them new agers. they were all obviously CONstructionists. nothing any of them wrote has ever been verified by anyone, but it was their specious works that helped generate interest and lead to the real work of reconstruction.
I think maybe the reason why you think what I am saying is far fetched is that the fact that you have heard so many arguments so many other times is clouding your reading, that you aren't fully understanding where I am coming from and you aren't giving me nearly enough credit.
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What you overlook is that these disguised European beliefs form a coherent system that is itself an authentic spiritual tradition...
...'Authenticity' is a modern concept. All cultures are syncretic.
When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.
(Lewis Carroll - Through the Looking-Glass)
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What you overlook is that these disguised European beliefs form a coherent system that is itself an authentic spiritual tradition...
...'Authenticity' is a modern concept. All cultures are syncretic.
When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.
(Lewis Carroll - Through the Looking-Glass)
I am totally aware of the multiple uses of the word 'authenticity' in my argument. I am saying that certain aspects of the new age represent a tradition that is authentic in the same way as any other religion; however, that notion of authenticity, whether applied to the new age or any other religion, is itself a modern concept. there is nothing paradoxical in that.
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I think maybe the reason why you think what I am saying is far fetched is that the fact that you have heard so many arguments so many other times is clouding your reading, that you aren't fully understanding where I am coming from and you aren't giving me nearly enough credit.
... So. The reason you don't make sense is because we have experience reading the defensive posts of Nuagers. And experience "clouds" our ability to read.
Well, it's a more novel defense than the usual racist accusations of ignorance.
I think we understand all too well where you're coming from. Where you're wrong is that you think that understanding you means we'll agree with you.
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Hi Quirin and welcome
I don't have time right now to read through all this slowly so I hope people will forgive me if I have missed some of what is being said here . Quirin I appreciate that you are thinking about all this and you seem to be trying to express your point of veiw respectfully.
For me the thing that is most offensive about the New Age belief system is reflected in the choice of the word "new". I agree with some of what you seem to be saying, in so far as I think there is some fundamental aspects of human experience that are reflected in pretty much every religion or Spiritual path. But these fundamentals are not "New". They are constants. The whole underlying culture behind "New Age" is one of consumerism and a constant and insatiable hunger for new consumer goods or experiences.
It seems to me that cultural assumption that the world is a consumable commodity, and that each individual is entitled to consume with no social responsibility, has become intertwined with all the older mystical roots of various traditions. The cultural background that led people to call these ancient fundamentals "new" and place such value on this so called "newness" is the same assumptions that allowed Europeans to colonize so many other lands, justifying this by calling it "progress" (new) and it is this same cutural background of consumerism that leads to the ugly behavior of people feeling entitled to help themselves to out of context peices of cultures that are not appropriate to their own lifes circumstances. Sadly and ironically this tends to destroy the very thing they were hoping to gain in doing so - a more harmonious wholistic relationship with the world they live in.
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The reason you don't make sense is because we have experience reading the defensive posts of Nuagers. And experience "clouds" our ability to read.
that begs the question that what I am saying doesn't make sense, which I don't think you have cogently illustrated.
I think we understand all too well where you're coming from. Where you're wrong is that you think that understanding you means we'll agree with you.
no I don't assume that.
here's the readers digest version of my argument:
a) not all new age beliefs involve cultural imperialism. some of them (e.g. crystal matrices, angel channeling, alien hierarchies, belief in an immanent personal spiritual power, tarot reading, candle magic, ceremonial and sympathetic magic, european-style astrology, etc.) came down to the modern era by direct lines of succession through european strands of occultism. these are the strands of "european ideas" that many board members assert (correctly) that the (evil, commercial aspect of the) new age smuggles into the cultural traditions it exploits.
b) these european strands of occultism were an integral part of religious movements of the early twentieth century which had a profound impact on religious practice throughout the united states, including mainstream christianity. since these movements propounded the idea of some kind of cosmic shift, they are seen as precursors to the modern "new age," and thus in a sense almost everyone is now a "new ager," in that our belief systems were radically influenced by these movements.
c) since these things are the case, calling ALL new agers frauds and counterfeit and unspiritual is offensive, as is using the word "nuager" in a derisive way.
there are certainly objections that can be made to these statements, including the very cogent ones made by laurel about the long history of european cultural imperialism. but I am pretty sure the statements themselves "make sense."
I do not defend exploitation. I do not support syncretism except in those instances were it is welcomed by both parties. I do support historical reconstructionism and the preservation of traditional belief systems. I also recognize the historical fact that I am a new ager.
since you have made so many attacks against me, I will point out that the problem with YOUR attitude is that you are attacking the people closest to you and not the actual root of the problem, which is the global corporate state and the plastic shamans themselves. in fact, you are attacking the very people who are most likely to actually listen to and help you.
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For me the thing that is most offensive about the New Age belief system is reflected in the choice of the word "new". I agree with some of what you seem to be saying, in so far as I think there is some fundamental aspects of human experience that are reflected in pretty much every religion or Spiritual path. But these fundamentals are not "New". They are constants. The whole underlying culture behind "New Age" is one of consumerism and a constant and insatiable hunger for new consumer goods or experiences.
I agree with you completely. the use of the word "new" is deeply problematic, and I only use the name "new age" because society as a whole uses it, and the people on this board use it.
I think, tho, that the insatiable hunger for consumer goods and new experiences comes from the fact that the consumer goods consistently fail to deliver, and we have not been taught the right way to look for meaning. we want wholeness and belonging, and we have been taught to be consumerist and so we keep looking for those things in trinkets and books because we don't realize that the real thing comes from community and love.
The cultural background that led people to call these ancient fundamentals "new" and place such value on this so called "newness" is the same assumptions that allowed Europeans to colonize so many other lands, justifying this by calling it "progress" (new) and it is this same cutural background of consumerism that leads to the ugly behavior of people feeling entitled to help themselves to out of context peices of cultures that are not appropriate to their own lifes circumstances.
yeah. I came from a background where this new age stuff was all around me. and it appealed to something I wanted, to this sense of longing for a more heart-centered existence. but over time I realized that so much of it was based in lies and exploitation, and it was really difficult not to just give up on spirituality altogether. but i think in the heart of this group of people who get called "new age," there are some of us who are really trying to heal the wounds inflicted on us and by our culture.
so the "age" is only "new" for us. we are trying to start a new age for ourselves, because we are so disgusted by the things our culture has done that it has left us feeling alone and horrified by the world.
I would never presume that I have anything to teach people of another tradition about spirituality. I just don't want my spirituality taken away from me.
Sadly and ironically this tends to destroy the very thing they were hoping to gain in doing so - a more harmonious wholistic relationship with the world they live in.
yeah that is really true.
thank you for taking the time to write your opinions. I appreciate your insight and kindness.
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qirin, the "New Age" movement is, above all, an incoherent conglomeration of myriad strands and philosophies. If you have found cohesion, I suspect it is your imposition of order upon particular and specific parts it rather than an inherent relationship among them.
Almost all the elements and practices you put forth as organically European can also be found in other cultures, and often predating European usage.
In many ways, you yourself prove the point: Your very eclecticism seems to be a point of honor for you, the individual expression of the search for meaning amongst various philosophic threads. In other words, whatever works.
The idea of traditional cultural matrix and communities which seek to protect themselves from theft and sacrilegious usage of their traditions seems to be beyond you. I suspect you think you should be the arbiter, the chooser of whether traditions should or shouldn't be protected from exploitation.
I'm reminded of the capitalist "Globalization" movement which also seeks to invade communities and force them to participate whether they want to or not. The inequality of power is similar to those who appropriate from traditional cultures.
You make a distinction between the bad "frauds" and you, a sincere seeker who professes respect for these cultures. But your words also reflect your denial of self-determination for these peoples. I can't read your mind but I also suspect you are baffled why anyone would deny you access to these cultural practices or condemn your sincerity. And that, in a nutshell, is the crux: it's not your decision.
As to why people here dwell on the "bad" and combating frauds rather than focusing on the positive, this is a regrettable "New Age" attitude as well. I've observed that many "New Agers" are very adverse to "negative" emotions like anger. Sometimes people must protect themselves. Sometimes people must fight to protect themselves. This is not a perspective that gets much play in the "New Age" communities. It's considered spiritually unevolved by "New Agers" in my experience.
Yet loving the people who oppress and steal from you isn't always the best answer. If there seems to be a disparaging tone here about "Nuage" practices, this is because our experience has shown that the Nuage has a voracious appetite for appropriation of other cultures despite your assertion of a fantastically pristine European core. And while the "plastic shamans" are obvious targets here, they are often only the commercial outcropping of attitudes embedded deep in the "New Age" communities.
So you stumble in here during your searches, all paternalistic in wanting to show us the deep errors of our efforts, all earnest in presenting us with the real New Age philosophy as you understand it. Unsurprisingly, you remain ignorant of the beam in your eye, the arrogance of your attitude and the smug sense of superiority radiating from your posts. As you try to help us understand how flawed we are here, you condescend to inform us that "...you are attacking the people closest to you and not the actual root of the problem, which is the global corporate state and the plastic shamans themselves. in fact, you are attacking the very people who are most likely to actually listen to and help you."
And so blame is neatly turned around by you onto the participants in this forum: The problem is we don't make allies of the people who exploit these communities. This is always the message from oppressors and exploiters: "We know what's best for you. We can help you. Stop fighting and be our friends as we absorb and destroy you. We promise we'll respect you in the morning." Of course you don't see the "New Age" in general as an exploiter of Native cultures but such exploitation is a deep and intrinsic part of the "New Age movement."
So be a dear and run along.
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Almost all the elements and practices you put forth as organically European can also be found in other cultures, and often predating European usage.
that doesn't make them not an intrinsic part of european traditions.
In many ways, you yourself prove the point: Your very eclecticism seems to be a point of honor for you, the individual expression of the search for meaning amongst various philosophic threads. In other words, whatever works.
no it is my scholarship that is a point of honor to me. in practice I am not eclectic at all.
The idea of traditional cultural matrix and communities which seek to protect themselves from theft and sacrilegious usage of their traditions seems to be beyond you.
that idea is not at all beyond me, I appreciate it very deeply. however, I think that if you look at the structure of the world around you you will see its something of a doomed project.
I suspect you think you should be the arbiter, the chooser of whether traditions should or shouldn't be protected from exploitation.
again, you have totally missed the mark. I don't think I am the arbiter of anything, I am just voicing my observations.
I'm reminded of the capitalist "Globalization" movement which also seeks to invade communities and force them to participate whether they want to or not. The inequality of power is similar to those who appropriate from traditional cultures.
my feelings about globalization are the same as my feelings about cultural appropriation: I do not support it, but it has become so inexorably a part of our world that we have been forced to find ways to come to terms with it.
You make a distinction between the bad "frauds" and you, a sincere seeker who professes respect for these cultures.
only for the purpose of argument.
But your words also reflect your denial of self-determination for these peoples.
now that's really a stretch.
I can't read your mind
clearly
but I also suspect you are baffled why anyone would deny you access to these cultural practices or condemn your sincerity.
actually that doesn't baffle me at all.
And that, in a nutshell, is the crux: it's not your decision.
I am aware of that. I am still, however, entitled to voice my opinion.
Sometimes people must protect themselves. Sometimes people must fight to protect themselves.
that is what I am doing. I am defending the new age and other varieties of postmodern experience as an intrinsic part of my culture, which is in some sense also an oppressed culture, in that we were born the heirs of a huge legacy of hatred and villainy and are now expected to put up with being blamed and talked down to because of the actions of our ancestors and our flawed education.
Unsurprisingly, you remain ignorant of the beam in your eye, the arrogance of your attitude and the smug sense of superiority radiating from your posts.
no I am not ignorant of the beam in my eye, nor of my air of superiority, nor of the fact that I glaringly omitted any discussion of the white oppression of Native Americans from my original post. the truth is, I read a bunch of stuff here and it bugged me and I figured I would go ahead and try and commit those thoughts to paper. I am not expecting anyone to agree with me or change their mind, and I understand why the people on here feel the way they do, why they would be angry, why my attitude would piss them off and so on.
but that doesn't mean that I don't have the right to be irritated by what I have read on here, and to think that the presentation is somewhat biased and overzealous.
And so blame is neatly turned around by you onto the participants in this forum: The problem is we don't make allies of the people who exploit these communities.
I'm not blaming you or trying to turn anything around. I am just pointing out that this kind of oppositional stance, like activist neo-marxism and fundamentalist christianity, just alienates you from everyone except those whom you deem to be members of your in group.
So be a dear and run along.
cute. I'll wait for the moderators to decide on that.
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I'm not blaming you or trying to turn anything around. I am just pointing out that this kind of oppositional stance, like activist neo-marxism and fundamentalist christianity, just alienates you from everyone exc ept those whom you deem to be members of your in group.
Oppositional to what? That's mighty white of you. Please. Can't you see the arrogance in your words?
There are folks here who are better with words than I am, but really, you are very eurocentric, those "poppets" you talk of DO have roots in African diasporic religions, the things you are claiming are European do also exist in other traditions. There is a strong African-American Folk magic presence, which is NOT new age, which you have dismissed in one sentence. Again, how mighty white of you. And now you say that the Indigenous people should just not be so oppositional. How dare people of color make you uncomfortable. I'm a little dumbfounded.
Why don't you go to your own people and tell them the error of their ways? Tell them to stop labeling things Native that aren't. You clearly have acknowledged that you see what is happening. The answer is not for the injured parties to be nicer about it or share more. How about the people who are doing the offensive things stop? How about that as a solution?
Taraverti
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...I run the risk of being ignored and accused of being a troll, because I think what I have to say is valid. I say what I have to say out of a genuine desire for mutual understanding, not to provoke anger.
Let me begin by saying that I am not defending people like Carlos Castaneda, Alberto Villoldo, Maria Yraceburu et al. who misrepresent themselves as emissaries of cultures they have no connection to. I do not support cultural imperialism, the selling of other people's cultures, charlatanry and the exploitation of people's naivety, depression and desire for meaning.
What I am is a "New Ager??? who finds a lot of things on this site and in these discussions extremely troubling. I haven't read the entire contents of the board, and so some of what I say here may have been answered in other places....
I wouldn't call you a troll, but I do think most of us in here will ignore you, and we all definitely should, at least until you take time enough to actually read what we've been saying, which you admit you haven't done.
If you had done that instead of wasting our time, you'd have seen a few others have said things before very similar to what you're saying. In other words, they also came in here and very arrogantly presumed to lecture what they think NDNs should be like, and how NDNs should behave, say, think, and act. They also presumed they knew far more than anyone in here just what (dramatic music, please) THE TRUTH is.
If you find what we say and how we defend our traditions "troubling" but are not far more troubled by millions being harmed by the lies of Castaneda, for example, or the many sexually abused and exploited by the likes of the Deer Tribe and the Nuwaubians...
...just about everyone would say there's something deeply wrong with you. Namely your concern for your own hurt feelings over imaginary insults we've never said vs failing to see the real world around you, and be concerned with real issues and real harm being done.
For example, your extended sidetrack has caused people in here to ignore ACTUAL news. Where did you get the idea one person's complaint belonged under "News"? That was very arrogant of you, and again shows you don't even bother to read before you begin to presume to lecture us.
Meanwhile, Wolfhawaii's post of a call to protest a very poor misrepresentation of the Haudenosaunee on the Discovery Channel was ignored.
And that's very typical of so many Nuagers, believing their little woes in their sheltered lives matter more than real harm and real issues.
Others may speak with you if they wish. I won't, unless you become abusive or deliberately insulting (as distinct from your UNintentional insults so far, brought on by your own cluelessness.)
For myself, I'd rather spend my time looking at cases of real fraud that have been brought to our attention.
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...just about everyone would say there's something deeply wrong with you. Namely your concern for your own hurt feelings over imaginary insults we've never said vs failing to see the real world around you, and be concerned with real issues and real harm being done.
there are real insults strewn all throughout these boards, and also on the main newagefraud.org site, primarily in that you call "new age," an umbrella term that encapsulates a lot of modern spiritual practices which have brought a lot of good into a lot of people's lives, fraudulent and incoherent.
a few years back, a friend of mine saved another friend of his from a car-accident induced coma through repeated applications of reiki. american reiki is clearly a form of cultural imperialism, but it still saved someone's life. likewise "tribal" bellydance has been a very transformative practice for my girlfriend and for countless other women who find in it a liberating form of self-expression and connection with their bodies.
our lives and realities are deeply bound up with these appropriated practices and can't wash our hands of them as easily as you all would probably like. the point of view on these boards is what is detached from reality, in that your use of a binary opposition of genuine versus fraudulent as the basis for attacks on various cultural practices fails to really take into account the complexity of modern culture. the problem with the attitude that you are taking is that you don't present a workable alternative.
Where did you get the idea one person's complaint belonged under "News"? That was very arrogant of you
I didn't know exactly where to put it but the title of that forum said "new users start here." also it says "welcome and news," not just "news." anyway, it succeeding in getting people's attention.
And that's very typical of so many Nuagers, believing their little woes in their sheltered lives matter more than real harm and real issues.
this is sort of a non sequitur argument, since it implies that I intentionly distracted people from Wolfhawaii's post, but you do have a point. however, I don't believe my little woes matter MORE than "real harm" and "real issues," I just think they do matter.
(as distinct from your UNintentional insults so far, brought on by your own cluelessness.)
as opposed to your very intentional one right there.
For myself, I'd rather spend my time looking at cases of real fraud that have been brought to our attention.
there's something deeply wrong with me? maybe there is, but the fact that "everyone on this board would agree" doesn't make it so.
I do care about the reality of what's going on. I have been shocked as, over the years and bit by bit, I have learned about castaneda and the others. I have tried to be a strong advocate against exploitation, for the right of indigenous people to their own cultural traditions, against exploitation from within the new age community, against colonialism, against whiteness as a whole. not that that makes me deserve some kind of special credit but I do try to do what is right by other people, even if I have failed. not that I am not still dealing with my own issues of whiteness on a daily basis.
but here I dared, for what is probably the only time in my life, to defend one aspect of my culture. I understand your side of the story and sympathize with it. I support the right of Native Americans to try to keep people from ripping off their culture. I just think all the attacks and belittling of what is in essence the dominant religious tradition in the US is a little over the top.
naive and white? fine. but the fact is that no matter what you or I say, you guys are losing. new age commercialism is coming out on top. real native american traditions are being erased. you can say "ultimately its not my choice," but it's not your choice either. yeah it's arrogant of me to say this, but it's also the truth: if you want this project to succeed, you will have to change your tactics.
at least until you take time enough to actually read what we've been saying, which you admit you haven't done.
I admitted I hadn't read EVERYTHING. am I supposed to read every post on this board before feeling offended by it?
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Oppositional to what?
oppositional to mainstream culture.
That's mighty white of you. Please. Can't you see the arrogance in your words?
I think you just misunderstood what I was saying.
but really, you are very eurocentric
that was the point, I was trying to show how a lot of the elements of new age-ism are in fact european. I could have written another essay abotu all the parts that are borrowed or stolen from other cultures but that wasn't the point.
those "poppets" you talk of DO have roots in African diasporic religions, the things you are claiming are European do also exist in other traditions.
that's true, sympathetic magic exists in every tradition. the point is that it was independently a part of european traditions before they ever came into contact with other cultures. and alchemy and hermetics are uniquely european, although they do descend from older rabbinical and greek traditions, but that's going back thousands of years.
And now you say that the Indigenous people should just not be so oppositional. How dare people of color make you uncomfortable. I'm a little dumbfounded.
the chinese, east indians, tibetans, japanese, africans, etc. have generally not responded to cultural appropriation in the ways you guys do.
Why don't you go to your own people and tell them the error of their ways? Tell them to stop labeling things Native that aren't. You clearly have acknowledged that you see what is happening. The answer is not for the injured parties to be nicer about it or share more. How about the people who are doing the offensive things stop? How about that as a solution?
I do those things all the time in the real world. I am just also saying that you guys should be a little more careful with your use of the word new age because it applies to other things besides just white appropriations of native american culture. it is paradoxical for you to ask us to respect your culture while at the same time you criticize us in the ways that appear elsewhere in this thread.
I am not saying you should be nice or share. I am just saying that self-documentation, i.e. publishing art books, histories and so on, would be a better way of preventing your culture from being erased than just yelling at people for playing indian.
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well this has all been very fun but I think we've made ourselves clear. I would like to thank you all for taking the time to respond to me, and to say that as I go on in life I will try to learn from the things I have read on this site and here today.
I hope that there was some truth in the things I said today, and that someone will read them and derivve benefit from them. if not, then I apologize for wasting everyone's time.
I will come back at some point and see if anyone has anything they would like to add, but it doesn't seem like there's much left for me to say on the subject.
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1. there are real insults strewn all throughout these boards, and also on the main newagefraud.org site, primarily in that you call "new age....
2. our lives and realities are deeply bound up with these appropriated practices and can't wash our hands of them as easily as you all would probably like.
3. Where did you get the idea one person's complaint belonged under "News"? That was very arrogant of you
.....anyway, it succeeding in getting people's attention.
4. (as distinct from your UNintentional insults so far, brought on by your own cluelessness.)
as opposed to your very intentional one right there.
5....the fact is that no matter what you or I say, you guys are losing. new age commercialism is coming out on top. real native american traditions are being erased. you can say "ultimately its not my choice," but it's not your choice either. yeah it's arrogant of me to say this, but it's also the truth: if you want this project to succeed, you will have to change your tactics.
6....am I supposed to read every post on this board before feeling offended by it?
1. If the phrase "new age" is insulting to you, get mad at other Nuagers. They invented it. We didn't. Again, quit wasting our time. Anything further on that non-issue is spam and will be deleted.
2. Yes you can. Walk away from the lies, admit you've done harm and done wrong, and do no more harm. Very simple. If cult survivors can do it, why can't you?
3. We have no time to waste on someone who just wants attention and doesn't care how they get it.
4. That's not an insult. It's pointing out the obvious.
5. That's not an easy thing to judge. But by most measures we are winning.
Nuage books still sell a lot, but far less than they used to. And it's because of Natives speaking out and pointing out the lies and abuse.
New frauds still come out all the time, but they generally make far less profit and have far few followers than the first ones did. Castaneda sold tens of millions of books and was extremely wealthy, while the new frauds sometimes have to self publish and make enough to get by doing the workshop circuit.
And as far as Native traditions dying, again you clearly have no clue about what you're talking about. The traditions are stronger than ever.
6. No, just enough to know what you're talking about.
What you said elsewhere is that you are in support of our central purpose in here, warning the public about frauds and abusers.
So how about doing something useful towards that end? Perhaps you could introduce yourself, tell us your own experience of being abused, or lied to by exploiters, etc. Name names if you can.
Of course we don't ask anyone to tell us anything they are uncomfortable saying, and esp not anything which could bring them harm, such as harassment by exploiters and their followers.
BTW, an intro would go under Intro, not here. Plus it's just simple politeness.
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1. If the phrase "new age" is insulting to you, get mad at other Nuagers. They invented it. We didn't. Again, quit wasting our time. Anything further on that non-issue is spam and will be deleted.
well I guess I won't comment on that then
2. Yes you can. Walk away from the lies, admit you've done harm and done wrong, and do no more harm. Very simple. If cult survivors can do it, why can't you?
my point is that even if I did, it wouldnt change the nature of our whole culture.
3. We have no time to waste on someone who just wants attention and doesn't care how they get it.
that is an intentional misrepresentation of what I said.
4. That's not an insult. It's pointing out the obvious.
in a highly insulting way.
5. That's not an easy thing to judge. But by most measures we are winning.
Nuage books still sell a lot, but far less than they used to. And it's because of Natives speaking out and pointing out the lies and abuse.
yet the new age industry as whole, not the part that exploits Native Americans but the part the publishes stuff like the secret and what the bleep, is doing better than ever.
And as far as Native traditions dying, again you clearly have no clue about what you're talking about. The traditions are stronger than ever.
I didn't say they were dying. you are again misrepresenting what I said. I said that the best way to prevent native traditons from being eclipsed by commercial culture (as in the case of this objectionable discovery channel episode or for instance the medicine shield issue discussed extensively elsewhere on this site) would be self-documentation.
So how about doing something useful towards that end? Perhaps you could introduce yourself, tell us your own experience of being abused, or lied to by exploiters, etc. Name names if you can.
I don't think that's useful, although I did already name maria yraceburu. and if you had made this suggestion at the beginning, before you and [Insult removed] deluged me with insults, I might have taken you up.
Plus it's just simple politeness.
something [Insult removed].
I tried to behave in a civil way. [Insult removed]
thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. they were edifying, and I will definitely try to understand and be respectful of these things in the future. I realize the negative reactions I received were due to the cavalier nature of my original post, and so I dont expect appologies from anyone. however, if I may be so bold, I think your reactions indicate [Insult removed].
now goodnight. rejoice! this time I won't be coming back.
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Girin: When I discovered your Epistle last night I could not get my mind wrapped around your thoughts. Since everyone else has seen fit to answer you in ways that I can only aspire to. It seems unrealistic to me that my comments would be beneficial to the conversation. That being said I thought that I might as well as add a comment or three. It is evident from the way that you present your thoughts that you have the benefit of some higher education and posses some skills in both research as well as the use of the language. Here are a couple of concepts (ideas,facts) that may be of interest to you. First this board is, or tries to be, both a clearing house as well as a place where a call to action can be put forth to warn others of those people who would violate the cultural sanctity of Native American Culture/Spirituality. Many of us have a foot planted in both the Native world as well as the dominant European cultural model. We therefore quite well understand the problems that the threats of unauthorized appropriation of Native American Culture/Spirituality can cause. This is the reason that we are somewhat sensitive to any perceived threat ,criticism. When one has been hit as much as we have sometimes the fist starts moving before the totality of thought engages. You asked us to share knowledge this cannot be done in the way that you might want it to be. Traditional Elders hand out knowledge only as fast as the receiving person can assimilate it in a proper manner. I am sorry but this is another continent We come at things usually from a whole different direction using some entirely different concepts and views of our place in relation the land and Spirit. Succinctly said it is against our nature to share this knowledge in a nontraditional way. We understand that some people are wandering and lost and they search for a place where they can find some spiritual ease. We also understand that these people are vulnerable to the unscrupulous charlatan. We seek to prevent this happening if we can. We also seek to protect the purity, if you will, of our culture. Go to a powwow look, at all the Wannabe tribe members, maybe then you will understand our concerns and caution.. My comments are offered with respect to this board as well as yourself. I am "LittleOldMan"
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well since he continued after I tried to kill the thread, I will answer him.
First this board is, or tries to be, both a clearing house as well as a place where a call to action can be put forth to warn others of those people who would violate the cultural sanctity of Native American Culture/Spirituality. Many of us have a foot planted in both the Native world as well as the dominant European cultural model. We therefore quite well understand the problems that the threats of unauthorized appropriation of Native American Culture/Spirituality can cause.
and I do applaud that. I am very grateful to have read the things that I did. I am glad that my suspicions about maria yraceburu were confirmed, and that I was saved the heartache of being involved with those people.
This is the reason that we are somewhat sensitive to any perceived threat ,criticism. When one has been hit as much as we have sometimes the fist starts moving before the totality of thought engages.
believe it or not, I really do "get" that. I mean, in part it is apparent from all the things they accused me of, all the different types of racism and the various characterizations that they made, how many time this has happened before.
but the fact is, this site maintains a high profile, and it contains a great deal of negative talk about new age people who are not directly involved in cultural appropriation. various characterizations of the "new age" mindset and so on. you can find plenty of them further up in this thread ("we've heard this all before" etc.). maybe by new agers they specifically mean people who are involved in cultural appropriation, but it does not at all seem that way and I have not seen that distinction made.
and I used the word "new age" on purpose. I didn't have to. I don't happily identify with that word, and if I had come on here and used a different word, say european occultism, I may have gotten a very different reaction. we'll never know. but that was my point. these people are so enraged by those two words that anything that comes after it has to be attacked and dismantled.
You asked us to share knowledge this cannot be done in the way that you might want it to be. Traditional Elders hand out knowledge only as fast as the receiving person can assimilate it in a proper manner. I am sorry but this is another continent We come at things usually from a whole different direction using some entirely different concepts and views of our place in relation the land and Spirit. Succinctly said it is against our nature to share this knowledge in a nontraditional way.
again, I think everyone took my statement the wrong way. I was not saying that Native people should under any circumstance share medicine ways, as I guess you call them, or any aspect of your spiritual traditions. I simply meant that devoting some energy to educating people about your languages and histories and artistic traditions in a very superficial way, just what things are what and not the why or the how, could go a long way. I can tell fake tibetan stuff from real tibetan stuff a lot of the time because, even though I don't speak tibetan, I can recognize words that are real tibetan and words that aren't.
maybe that's too much to ask. it's just an idea. I guess I said everything in the wrong ways, but I am not sure that excuses the way they behaved towards me. of course I sort of expected that, [Insults removed] but I thought maybe someone else would want to talk.
in any case, I am glad they are keeping this here [Insults removed} is preserved for visitors to stumble upon.
Go to a powwow look, at all the Wannabe tribe members, maybe then you will understand our concerns and caution
I went to one awhile back at mission san luis rey, which is down the street from my house. I didn't see any wannabes, but maybe I just dont know how to look.
this site maintains a fairly high profile, and there is a lot of bad mouthing of various groups of people on here. deserved or otherwise, you are going to provoke a reaction. if people keep coming here and saying the same things, maybe there's a reason. whether they are right or wrong, they keep coming here because you are consistently offending people.
you guys talk about the need to defend your culture, and your willingness to fight to do so. so your jaws shouldn't drop when other people follow suit. the plastic shamans will keep coming, and people like me, who hope to find some kind of middle ground, will keep coming too. deal with it.
one of the "fraud" "shamans" who was in fact NDN, a friend of yraceburu's who taught a massage class I took, said over and over to us "you dishonor no one by honoring yourself."
that's all I tried to do here, honor myself and my experience. I am sorry that [Insult removed]
god be with you
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again, I think everyone took my statement the wrong way. I was not saying that Native people should under any circumstance share medicine ways, as I guess you call them, or any aspect of your spiritual traditions. I simply meant that devoting some energy to educating people about your languages and histories and artistic traditions in a very superficial way, just what things are what and not the why or the how, could go a long way. I can tell fake tibetan stuff from real tibetan stuff a lot of the time because, even though I don't speak tibetan, I can recognize words that are real tibetan and words that aren't.
god be with you
Your assumption that this is not happening is erroneous. AND there you go again, suggesting to Indians how they should behave. They really do know what they are doing and don't need to be told by you, which you would know if you educated yourself. Just because YOU are not aware of the education that is going on, does not mean it does not exist. In fact there's this big building in Washington DC ..... and lots of powwows open to the public. Hopefully I have said that in a way you can hear and not take offense at.
By the way, I'm not Indian.
I'm wondering if this metaphore approximates what you are saying:
You are suggesting we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. To which I reply "Get that precious child out of that stinky rotten filty bathwater! It's stinking so bad that the neighbors are going to come over and dump it!"
I get that there are things of value in the "new age" movement, along with the awful stuff. However, that's not the concern of this forum. I again suggest your energy is better spent in cleaning up the mess in your own house than in suggesting to Indians what they should do.
God be with you too.
Taraverti
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AND there you go again, suggesting to Indians how they should behave.
it said right at the beginning of that paragraph that I was reiterating a point I had made previously, so it's not really AGAIN. I dared one time to make one statement. well maybe two, since I also suggested they not use the word new ager as loosely as they do.
They really do know what they are doing and don't need to be told by you, which you would know if you educated yourself. Just because YOU are not aware of the education that is going on, does not mean it does not exist. In fact there's this big building in Washington DC ..... and lots of powwows open to the public. Hopefully I have said that in a way you can hear and not take offense at.
that sounds kind of funny, implying that I am easily offended, since you have taken offense to pretty much everything I have said.
By the way, I'm not Indian.
I never assumed that anyone was, other than those who identified as such.
You are suggesting we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. To which I reply "Get that precious child out of that stinky rotten filty bathwater! It's stinking so bad that the neighbors are going to come over and dump it!"
look, you said you think there's this whole new age aversion to negativity and that's why I am saying they should be nice and share. that's not what I am saying. all I was saying is that a lot of times taking an offensive stance can hurt your own cause, and sometimes you can out compete people just by being more proactive. I realize that I don't know everything there is to know about indians educating people and maybe it was wrong of me to say it, but it was actually not my main point.
I get that there are things of value in the "new age" movement, along with the awful stuff. However, that's not the concern of this forum.
that wasn't really my point either. my point was that the abusive language that a lot of people on this board use to talk about white spiritual seekers, a.k.a. "new agers," is hypocritical and in poor taste.
case in point:
today I was reading an article in Time magazine about the election, and there was a part where the writer said (and I paraphrase):
"It's time for the Republican party to sit in a circle, light some incense, hold hands and figure out what their supporters really believe in."
the new age is now an integral part of American culture, to the point that a writer can make a casual remark like that and no one will even bat an eye. the rate of cultural "appropriation" has accelerated astronomically as a consequence of technology, not just because of white people. the world is changing, and the fact is that this board is part of the global internet house.
so if you want to go for metaphors, how's this. it's a reflection of the kind of neighborhood I live in:
if you're gonna talk trash about your neighbors, you better do it where they can't hear or you are gonna get a knock on your door.
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qirin, I did not say half of the things you just attributed to me. You seem to have lumped everyone here into a generic "you".
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you're right, one of the things I said you said (new age aversion to negativity) was actually RedRightHand. I apologize.
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and I used the word "new age" on purpose. [...] these people are so enraged by those two words that anything that comes after it has to be attacked and dismantled.
I'm not enraged, I just think nuagers are silly and, at times, dangerous. That isn't a knee-jerk reaction, it's a response I've learned from talking to dozens, perhaps hundreds, of defenders of the so-called New Age. I don't give (for example) people who say vaccines cause autism the benefit of the doubt either.
again, I think everyone took my statement the wrong way. I was not saying that Native people should under any circumstance share [...] your spiritual traditions. I simply meant that devoting some energy to educating people about your languages and histories and artistic traditions [...] could go a long way.
Again, you want others to take responsibility for your education. I see that a lot in modern life. Men who are sexist expect feminists to educate them. White people who don't want to examine white privilege expect people of color to educate them. It's just not their/our job.
in any case, I am glad they are keeping this here (tho probably just out of spite) so that their unconscienable and irrational behavior is preserved for visitors to stumble upon.
You seem flabbergasted that anyone would A) have the temerity to take your words as they are written and/or B) disagree with you. To call that unconscionable seems a bit irrational. Maybe even spiteful.
you guys talk about the need to defend your culture, and your willingness to fight to do so. so your jaws shouldn't drop when other people follow suit. the plastic shamans will keep coming, and people like me, who hope to find some kind of middle ground, will keep coming too. for %!&#@*'s sake, deal with it.
This board exists so that people who care about this might "deal with it." Cue passive-agressive foot-stomping childishness in 5...4...3...
that's all I tried to do here, honor myself and my experience. I am sorry that you are all too hurt and narrow-minded see that.
god be with you
Was that the nuage version of the "I'll pray for you" that really means something ruder? I think it was.
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Was that the nuage version of the "I'll pray for you" that really means something ruder? I think it was.
no it was an expression that comes from my heritage (english; it's a phrase that "goodbye" is a contraction of... "god be wi' ye"), that is meant to show affection and goodwill. meaning that while I disagree philosophically with MANY of the things said here, I still respect you and your work and wish you all the best. honestly.
Again, you want others to take responsibility for your education. I see that a lot in modern life. Men who are sexist expect feminists to educate them. White people who don't want to examine white privilege expect people of color to educate them. It's just not their/our job.
well I am a feminist and have written about heterocentrism and white privilege, in the new age and in american history. however, I was speaking PRAGMATICALLY. I was not trying to imply that anyone had the responsibility to do anything.
I don't really want to argue about this anymore.
I think I have raised some valid objections to attitudes I have seen here.
I think that prejudice is prejudice, no matter whom it is directed at, and that treating "new agers" as some massive conglomeration of weak minded fools is just as arrogant and socially problematic as it would be if I assumed that any one of you spoke for native/NDN people as a whole. you evidently disagree.
I think you have all behaved in ways that are far more arrogant and childish than I have (though I don't deny that those epithets could be applied to some of things I have said), and I think the record bears that out. you disagree.
no doubt many of you are angry at me for wasting your precious time, and that is your right, just as it was mine to express my feelings publicly when I felt the need to do so. fine. let's drop it. anyone else want to have the last word, go ahead.
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Not going for the last word--just wanted to tell you I appreciate your Starr Fuentes post.
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I very rarely have time to read this forum but this thread caught my eye and I read the OP and of the first few replies to it, and skimmed the rest. Others have responded much more eloquently than I could or would have time to even if I could, but I'd still like to add something.
The persistent mental image I got while reading qirin's posts was of the courtroom scene in "My Cousin Vinny" where Vinny (Joe Pesci) is at the bench objecting to the calling of an unexpected witness for the prosecution, and the response of Judge Haller (Fred Gwynne) was: "Mr. Gambini, that was a lucid, intelligent, well-thought out objection. Overrulled!"
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Hi qirin -
The first thing you must understand is that the "new age" is an industry.
You can write me for a copy of "Amazing Stories", my guide inside that industry and how it operates, and I''ll send it to you free.
After you have read it, then come back here and share your thoughts.
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas and
"Amazing Stories"
PS: Litttle Old Man - thanks for sharing your guidance on anger.
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The first thing you must understand is that the "new age" is an industry.
Good point. Essential point.
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It is a good point! They make tons of money selling all manor of things. So much of it is scam stuff. I'd say you can't make this stuff up, but obviously they DO!
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I took Mr. Grondine up on his offer and read his article he sent...it took me a bit to grasp the trend of where it was going, but when I did I was pretty amazed at all the connections and sources he listed. I have read a fair amount of books in the genre he discusses and it was a pretty enlightening read. It confirms what i have seen myself....that questionable people and frauds tend to group together and support each other. Some of the books he refers to I own or have read, and while I am interested in esoteric knowledge some of what is sold is beyond lunatic fringe. Thank you EP Grondine for researching and writing on this subject.
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I left this one alone a long time. Personally I don't have a problem with Qirin's argument. He's just misplaced it. Qirin has objection to lumping the negative activities we object against here under the umbrella of "new age" because he defines himself and others as "new age" without association with any of these negative activities.
He seems to be fighting for a new definition of "new age" and make it a positive one. I don't disregard Qirin's statement there. If we want frauds to quit scamming others in the name of "new age" religions then taking that term and distancing it from fraudulent activities would be productive. I agree with him there.
However, he concedes the term "New Age" is a modern one, but he doesn't consider that the reason it's a modern term is because it has to do with commerce. Just as "Cure All" was the catch phrase of medicine shows "New Age" has been defined by the commercial industry that created it.
A modern corollary would be the genre of "Celtic Music" in America. When asked to define what Celtic music is you'll get different answers from different people. The term itself was not in regular existence until the mid-90's when the music industry began to cash in on the popularity of music under the title of "World Music" which included everything under the sun that was not a clearly defined genre of Western Music. The Riverdance explosion had a lot to do with a sudden surge of interest in music from Celtic regions so the genre of "Celtic Music" was created by record executives. But the question then must be answered What is Celtic music? Is it Irish music, is it Scottish, music from Newfoundland, traditional, contemporary??? The answer is all of the above and it's left to listener to figure it out no matter what the music is. This range of definition is pretty varied. Traditional community based Irish folk music is considered the same genre as a modern day artist who raps in Gaelic. Most Americans would think of Celtic music as rocky shores with crashing waves and a penny whistle playing a soft tune...if you look at the Celtic Music section in an American music store you'll find 9 out of 10 of the CD's in that section play on that kind of imagery or something similar, but you'll also find groups that sing modern rock music with a Irish twist (i.e. The Dropkick Murphy's from Boston)...so truly the definition of "Celtic Music" is what will sell the most under a genre called "Celtic Music".
This wide range of definition is also true of the term "New Age". For some people it is exactly as you define Qirin and nobody here has a problem with it, but not all people define New Age as you see it (in fact...the vast majority wouldn't define it that way) and you must agree that there are those who've commercialized it to a point as to remove all meaning from it....i.e. frauds. The name of this forum is New Age FRAUDS and plastic shaman. It's those that would steal the same thing you've embraced and sully it's meaning that we wish to expose and I'm surprised that you take the tactic of attempting to educate those that in the end are on your side in such a condescending manner.
Take away your offense Qirin. See "New Age" for what it is....a selling point...a commercial industry.
Superdog
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I've been continuing to think about this conversation as I think the underlying belief systems of people who support exploiters and frauds is important to explore and address.
I have known quite a few people to be involved in New Age beliefs and practices. I think most of these people have good intentions , and most of them are nice enough people, though under the surface I generally find people with an intrest in New Age beliefs to also have a general attitude of self absorbstion and self indulgence.
The "problem" as I see it is that the backbone of true religions seems to be a road map of our duties and responsibilities to our community and the bigger picture.
I just don't see where the New Age beliefs have this backbone. The standard new Age lines like " No judgement" &" It's all meant to be" , & " I am a wonderfiul perfect being entitled to all the love and abundance and everything I want" & " The coming changes and dawn of the New Age will fix everything " together with a presentation which reminds me of buffet style all you can eat banquet of exotic dishes from all over the planet , doesn't seem to have much to do with underlying morals and values . The new Age seems based in beliefs which justify self gratification .
New Age beliefs seem to put peoples imagined right to "self improvement" and the glory of progress ahead of all else . This all important over riding goal doesn't seem to be much different than the belief in manifest destiny, and both are used as a justification for helping oneself to things that belong to another people.
I have rarely seen people who gravitate to New Age beliefs also involved in any sustained committed work towards making the world a better place - ( sorry visualizations without hands on work don't count)
New Age beliefs allow people to claim to be concerned about the environment but at the same time justify flying to the other side of the Earth to "Heal the Planet".
People with newage beliefs typically imagine they support indigenous peoples, but they only do this in so far as indigenous people cater to their desires. As soon as Native peoples try and create some self protective boundaries and say NO the support for indigenous people evaporates and the underlying assupmtions of White privildge become apparent.
The other thing that bugs me about New Age is it seems so focused on attaining a thrill through the unusual and sensational , which is one of the things that seems to define a non spiritually based consumer culture. I believe true Spiritual insight sees and cherishes the value of the ordinary.
I would agree with Qirin that some people do find their way to some sort of healing through being involved in some sort of New Age practice.
Partly i think this is the placebo effect
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/100_heal.html
Partly I think people use New Age practices kind of like a Christmas tree. It is something to get together around that offers an experience that is less shallow and lonely than going to a shopping mall , but not so removed from this to be unfamiliar.
For these reasons I would agree the New Age is mainly a commercial industry, but it is human beings with human needs that fuel commercial industries. The needs are real, but I don't see New Age practices as a true religion or Spiritual path ... I think is is truly sad that people are so lost they turn to Spiritual consumerism.
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For these reasons I would agree the New Age is mainly a commercial industry, but it is human beings with human needs that fuel commercial industries. The needs are real, but I don't see New Age practices as a true religion or Spiritual path ... I think is is truly sad that people are so lost they turn to Spiritual consumerism.
The whole post was right on the mark and doesn't just apply to people who identify as "New Age" but a lot of people who call themselves pagan as well. The concepts that you point at (responsibility to one's family and community, real work and effort) are the basis of only very few groups in the various types of paganism. Some of us have stepped up and made these self same criticisms and we mostly get shouted down. The number of individuals in the pagan disunity who have publicly made these sorts of arguments is tiny. I expect it to remain so. These are not popular ideas. When we bring them up they are not listened to.
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qirin -
I saw you mention Blavatsky, along with a mistaken statement as to her role in the nuage.
Before you speak about Blavatsky, you really need to read my little history of the nuage.
It may save you much grief and wasted time. You are being deceived.
E.P. Grondine
"Amazing Stories"