NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: nahualqo on March 23, 2007, 11:49:23 pm
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Yes, I support this board. Yes, I critisize your techniques handling Native Americans. Here is the Web site of the Caddo Nation, they are from Texas but their REZ is in Oklahoma. Communicate and coordinate your findings with the Caddo Nation. That will make me happy. We don't have shamans. However in Siberia there are shamans. In cultures very similar to Native Amerians in the North of Europe they have shamans.
http://www.caddonation-nsn.gov/
You didn't know it was so prevalent, but you have criticized us for putting up this board?? ???
You need to take a trip to yopur local "metaphysical" or "new age" bookstore. Pick up some of their freebee newspapers and look at their "shamanism" or "Native American" sections. Then maybe, you will get an understanding of why we are so against these frauds. The elders are busy trying to lead their lives, survive, and you think they have time for all these frauds? Mostly we are dealing with the ines who have a web presence. There are many that don't have a website, or a book, and they are as bad or worse. The one I would most like to deal with, would require me to have contact with people from the nation he claims and as many NDNS as I know, I do not know anyone who is Caddo. Which the fraud can't even pronounce correctly.
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But the information is given to the Nations. Remember this is an Educational and Information site. It can be passed on. When some were selling Vision Quest in NY a few years ago at 1000-1500 dollars, the Nation's council was aware. Told them to stop. Also, the Nations are aware of the bogus tribes, and have contact with them. http://www.Cherokee.org/home.aspx?section=phoenix&ID=H/yXnQ2HqDo= Many Nations have been contacted to see if what some individual claims is supported by the Nation they claim to be from. frederica
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nahualgo,
I AM Indian. I LIVE on a REZ. I am active in the community where I live. PLEASE quit assuming that I am ignorant. I do not appreciate being preached at like an ignorant child. I am a grown up. A grandmother even. I don't need YOU telling me how to be an Indian, thank you very much.
That will make me happy.
I don't really care WHAT makes you happy. So stop patronizing me and others on this board. It's rude. Most of us ALREADY know that Indians don't have shamans. The ones that don't know it, ask. And when you start with the "we believe this...." stuff. well, it makes me want to ask (as an old friend used to say) " What we? You got a mouse in your pocket?" Not all Indians believe the same things . YOU should know that. Why heck, my husband's favorite nephew is a neo-con, but we love him anyway and he is definitely Indian.;) So a suggestion: Stop assuming that we don't know anything about Indians. Proceed as if we know already because maybe we do. And the ones that don't aren't shy about asking.
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Smart aleck remarks are the last refuge of a scoundrel.
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Telling on yourself? Because it sounds like projection. You are rude. You don't have to respect people to treat them politely. In the community I live in, the elders would turn their backs on you for your rudeness. I live on one rez and there is another just down the road. Today, I spent most of the day with my husband's family on the Port Gamble S'Klallam rez. It was the day to honor the Elders and I was treated as an Elder. You can be as nasty as you want, but you still live in the city.
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I doubt very much that I am projecting. Besides on my Reservation I wouldn't have to trouble speaking with you, you are a woman not my relative and you are married. I would however enjoy speaking with your husband in the proper company of men and not be bothered with woman with an axe to grind. I see most of the trouble I am having on this board is with self righteous women with a self righteous axe to grind. I disagree with your treatment towards Native American offenders without specific support of their elders. Your tribal traditions are different than mine we know that already. I bet most of the offenders are men too, right! I bet you are whaling and salmon people. My patronization of you only seems that way because I don't know you nor do I know what you respect, support or know. Give respect a chance and I will return the favor.
Are your people still using their age old skills at earning a living. Can they by treaty rights still fish and whale or take sea lions or seals?
Telling on yourself? Because it sounds like projection. You are rude. You don't have to respect people to treat them politely. In the community I live in, the elders would turn their backs on you for your rudeness. I live on one rez and there is another just down the road. Today, I spent most of the day with my husband's family on the Port Gamble S'Klallam rez. It was the day to honor the Elders and I was treated as an Elder. You can be as nasty as you want, but you still live in the city.
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That's some good work. I respect very much how you handled this.
But the information is given to the Nations. Remember this is an Educational and Information site. It can be passed on. When some were selling Vision Quest in NY a few years ago at 1000-1500 dollars, the Nation's council was aware. Told them to stop. Also, the Nations are aware of the bogus tribes, and have contact with them. http://www.Cherokee.org/home.aspx?section=phoenix&ID=H/yXnQ2HqDo= Many Nations have been contacted to see if what some individual claims is supported by the Nation they claim to be from. frederica
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My husband's people do not have it in their treaty to take whales. They do exercise their treaty rights to fish, shellfish, game, food and medicinal plants. I am from a plains tribe. I doubt you would find any whales there.
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nahualgo,
I have been following your posting. I am Cherokee and was taught that I can only speak for myself and cherokee ways. I was taught long ago, yes I have grey hair lol, that one can not speak unless given permission for other tribes.
I have myself contacted Elders on the REZ and Nations concerning the explotations of Cherokee traditions,ect. The CNO now has a task force and it will be interesting to see how it will work.
The Cherokee hold Women in high regard and many decisions were made after consulting the Women. From your comment it appears your tribe does not hold them in the same esteem as men. However that is your tribe, this board is not your tribe. While I respect your opinions ,to demean another poster for being a woman is very disrespectful, Nahualgo, you know this. This board is opionions and much hard work goes into research. Did you know that a young man died during a inipi held by someone who was "Indian", only to find out later he was not.
Could you please tell me what it is that bothers you so very much about all this. As I am not as fast of thinker as I use to be, please make it simple.
Weheli
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I have a problem when elders are not sought out when the possiblity of defaming another Native American is concerned. I laud your attention to this detail. I honor and respect womanhood. My life is filled with successful, long lived relationships with women. Both men and women in our society enjoy protections, duties, responsibilities, honors, joys and blessings.
nahualgo,
I have been following your posting. I am Cherokee and was taught that I can only speak for myself and cherokee ways. I was taught long ago, yes I have grey hair lol, that one can not speak unless given permission for other tribes.
I have myself contacted Elders on the REZ and Nations concerning the explotations of Cherokee traditions,ect. The CNO now has a task force and it will be interesting to see how it will work.
The Cherokee hold Women in high regard and many decisions were made after consulting the Women. From your comment it appears your tribe does not hold them in the same esteem as men. However that is your tribe, this board is not your tribe. While I respect your opinions ,to demean another poster for being a woman is very disrespectful, Nahualgo, you know this. This board is opionions and much hard work goes into research. Did you know that a young man died during a inipi held by someone who was "Indian", only to find out later he was not.
Could you please tell me what it is that bothers you so very much about all this. As I am not as fast of thinker as I use to be, please make it simple.
Weheli
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Nahualgo,
This is your response to Debbiebear:
'' Besides on my Reservation I wouldn't have to trouble speaking with you, you are a woman not my relative and you are married. I would however enjoy speaking with your husband in the proper company of men and not be bothered with woman with an axe to grind. I see most of the trouble I am having on this board is with self righteous women with a self righteous axe to grind. "
Are you saying you do not find this remark to be demeaning and that men more important than woman?
Nahualgo if I understand correctly your are of the Caddo Nation? If so as you have said I have a problem when elders are not sought out when the possiblity of defaming another Native American is concerned.
So if you would ,could I have the names and way of contact of your Elders or whomever you answer to. You can private message me if you like. We can clear this all up once and for all if I could talk with them as you would have me to.
I have read many of the sites you have posted on and refrain for the moment from any opinion until I speak with your Elder.
Wado Weheli
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I am not Caddo. Nahualism is not a tribal belief system, it is a portable state sponsored animist belief system of great antiquity. In Mesoamerica in the large Native American populations in what is now Mexico tribal beliefs had long subsumed into what became large international belief systems. The two most powerful international sytems were the Snake and the Jaguar traditions up until about 1,800 or 2,000 years ago a new tradition that is synthesized from several traditions including the Snake and the Jaguar was initiated by a man named Zamma who became the first Quetzal Coatl.
In the movie "Apocalypto" the traditions that were exemplified in the city are a Toltec inspired pairing of two traditions of Quetzal Coatl and Tlaloc. The Mayan post classical resurgence in pyramid building is directly attributed to the Toltec who themselves were refugees from the North Central part of Mexico. The main capital of Tula was destroyed by war. The traditions were improperly and controversially presented in an impious and cynical way in the movie Apocalypto.
In Mesoamerica alliances between nations were based upon great theocratic traditions such as Quetzal Coatl, Tlaloc, Coatl or snake and Huizilipochtli which was specifically Mexica. That is how the Toltec refugees were able to become the rulers of the Maya a people different speaking. The traditions were organizing principles of their civilizations.
The Toltec too were an ancient amalgam of 7 nations, six homogenous nations of a people referred to as the Toltec Chichimeca and one heterogeneous nation of people referred to as Nanoalca. The name Chichimeca we were taught comes from the root noun in Nahuatl Chichi, "a woman's breast". In the Toltec Chichimecan original tribal language as immature or uncivilized or nursing people, like a child of the earth. Originally Chichimeca was a meaning of innocence and naivite but became a perjorative appellage of bumpkin, poor in culture! The name Nanoalca was also coined by the more numerous Toltec Chichimeca peoples meaning those of poor or improper speach. The Nanoalca were an homogenous people from many nations that came together when the mother civilization the Olmec broke apart due to conflict between the Snake and the Jaguar traditions under pressure from the Quetzal Coatl tradition.
No, women are not demeaned by men or women being respectful towards each other's space. Are you attributing modern Western sensibilities and its overreaction in feminism as anything but an apoplexy from Western disempowerment of women? When I am at my relative's and I talk alone with my Aunt, I talk as a diminuative intimate, a child tense. When my uncle comes home I can no longer talk in this tense so I then talk with my uncle in a man's tense. Both men and women may insist upon this separation for different reasons that are their own. Women in our culture owned the lodge and a woman could put a man's belongings outside and they were divorced. To view this tradition in the light of Western infedelity with gender is not correct. When a woman that is not family gathers up a head of steam on you it is a way to insist upon space. More often than not women employ this separation as an insistence upon respect. When either gender breaks faith then either gender may insist upon it. I spun it the way I did because I wanted to see if she was going to respond as an Indian or a Western woman. "my bad!" I don't know if her culture has the same tenses.
The last paragon of our tribal culture died not too long ago in my tribe, Mike Swims Under. I don't know if he passed on his authority. I learned from my grandma. In my youth I kept going back to the REZ with my grandmother in hopes of finding someone to learn our traditions under but Mike Swims Under kept a low profile and didn't like speaking English.
Nahualism was outlawed and practitioners that have been exposed were killed outright. There is a book writen in the 17th Century Spanish Nahual hunter and killer was Hernando Ruiz de Alarcon. He wrote a book on his experiences. You can read the book of his experiences at the following website. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0095-182X(198924)13%3A1%3C105%3ATOTHST%3E2.0.CO%3B2-D
Our tradition has been attacked by the Federal Government three times. Originally we were situatated near New Orleans. The last big military move by the Federal Government pushed us north from New Orleans to Baton Rouge, Lafayette and Lake Charles. The last leader of our tradition and my teacher was assassinated in 1987 after the FBI failed to convict him on trumped up Federal Charges. I would have no know and trust you very well before I would entrust you with my responsibilities towards the elders in our tradition. It would have to be about something much more substantial than to address an internet argument.
I have a very narrow mandate to establish a legal non-profit institution in order to legalize and protect the tradition. I am in the process of writing down our oral tradition in 13 volumes of Tomes that are the property of the non-profit organization. These Tomes will never be published publicly and remain the private intellectual property of the non-profit corporation iin perpetuity.
Nahualgo,
This is your response to Debbiebear:
'' Besides on my Reservation I wouldn't have to trouble speaking with you, you are a woman not my relative and you are married. I would however enjoy speaking with your husband in the proper company of men and not be bothered with woman with an axe to grind. I see most of the trouble I am having on this board is with self righteous women with a self righteous axe to grind. "
Are you saying you do not find this remark to be demeaning and that men more important than woman?
Nahualgo if I understand correctly your are of the Caddo Nation? If so as you have said I have a problem when elders are not sought out when the possiblity of defaming another Native American is concerned.
So if you would ,could I have the names and way of contact of your Elders or whomever you answer to. You can private message me if you like. We can clear this all up once and for all if I could talk with them as you would have me to.
I have read many of the sites you have posted on and refrain for the moment from any opinion until I speak with your Elder.
Wado Weheli
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Nahualgo,
As I said I am Cherokee and apparently your traditions are different than our where women are concern. I will no longer speak on this.
I noticed in your introduction: Hello, I am a member of Siksika (Blackfeet, Browning, Montana) also the Well honored and respected Elder you mentioned in your posting:
The last paragon of our tribal culture died not too long ago in my tribe, Mike Swims Under. I don't know if he passed on his authority. I learned from my grandma. In my youth I kept going back to the REZ with my grandmother in hopes of finding someone to learn our traditions under but Mike Swims Under kept a low profile and didn't like speaking English. A Blackfeet Elder. I do know many Wonderful Blackfeet people.
So have I got this wrong or are you saying you have had NO Blackfeet teaching Elders?? If not where have you learned your teachings, if I may ask. I do not understand your teaching now and the obvious difference in the teachings of the Blackfeet, but than I am Cherokee so I could be wrong.
Weheli
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Tansi;
Let me see if I've got this right. Nahualco makes reference to both Caddo and Siksika people, but states that he/she was not raised in his/her Siksika Culture. He/she claims that one should consult with Elders of the people he is from, in order to address concerns about his/her portrayal of Culture. Since he/she will not make any statement about which Aboriginal Culture he/she is from, seeking the advice of Elders is not possible. The claim that one of the leaders of his/her community has been assasinated does not promote credibility, since many of our peoples have had leaders killed, who were working for their people, including my own.
I guess that I make it too easy, using my legal name and Proudly admitting that I am Metis, both of which can be easily checked up on. In my Culture, women are not only to be Respected, but also Revered. I have not met with any Aboriginal people who do not, Traditionally, Honour the women.
My father, whom I considered very wise, advised me to seek out the Traditional ways of my own Culture, before looking elsewhere. Our ways served our people over millenia and I have found them to serve my own Spiritual purposes, as well. I have had the Honour of knowing many people from the Blackfoot Confederacy, but do not have to follow their ways, in order to have Respect for them or to be able to consider some of them as friends.
It seems to me that Nahualco may be ashamed of the people that he descends from, either because they are not Native or because they may not support his claims, based on their Culture. As such, it does not seem credible to either give advice on issues related to specific Cultural beliefs or protocols, or to pretend to be an authority on anything else that will not allow for any form of scrutiny, other than by asking him/her.
To continue this "debate" seems to me to be useless.
Ric
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What he is stating here now publicly I can now confirm is virtually everything he swore to me had to be kept secret or the lives of himself and others would be in danger. The one remaining thing not revealed is his actual name. I don't take people asking me to keep their confidence lightly. Only once someone has already revealed what they previously asked to be kept hidden do I speak about it. So even though he's lied repeatedly, I will continue to keep his name a secret, though I again urge him to say it himself.
It's interesting that he's claiming Apocalypto was accurate when Mayan elders said it wasn't. The reason that there are no Mayans playing the Mayan leads in the film was that they collectively refused to take part because they were so offended by Gibson's lies.
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It's not considered accurate. There was a confrontation with Gibson and a lady Professor of Mesoamerican studies. Only Gibson claims it's accurate. It just the show biz view. frederica
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Blackfeet language is now taught in our tribal college. Mike Swims under gave his spiritual bundles back to the river before he died because he had no one to give them too. No one attended his cerimonial events for quite some time. I have heard from our tribal website that there are now a growing return to the old ways knowledge in the Northern Blackfeet in Canada. Our tribe was split into two. Blackfeet proper went to the Browning, Montana Reservation. That is where our family land is located. We have three tribes that are Blackfeet and societies within each tribe, the Blackfeet proper, the Piegan and the Bloods. The Blackfeet proper live in Montana while the Piegan and the Bloods live in Canada.
There are many forms of education and training in our culture. There is a large body of knowledge that is non-verbal communication. It is a process of normalization and socialization of behaviors that are not spoken about but are expected for you to know. Mothers and Grandmothers instill the non-verbal socialization skills. If you ask questions in public or you ask someone about those behaviors they will deny their existence. However you will still be judged on your ability to act within those non-verbal waypoints.
We had age graded societies. Babies for instance were participated in the Mosquito society. In that society, songs were sung to them, they were treated in certain ways that exist only in the Mosquito society. When you grow up, it was well established that you would go to one society to the next to get your training. This was destroyed with predjudice by the US Government. Knowledge and practices in our traditional life style became more and more difficult to find. In an oral tradition, when someone dies without handing down their knowledge, the knowledge dies with them. This was how the US Government designed our cultural extinction. As far as I know there are only few of the original societies left. The last sun dance on the Southern Blackfeet reservation occured in the early 60's. If I could have found someone to learn from as a young man, I would have never been available for Nahualism a few years after searching for my tribal knowledge.
Our last paragon of knowledge is the Chief of the Northern Blackfeet. He is very old and has had a heart attack and is constant care. He is spending his extremely valuable final years teaching and training. Now there is no shortage of Blackfeet desiring to learn the Old Knowledge. We also have very specific ways of introduction that has a lot to do with our order of respect and purpose. You would have to go the Reservation in Canada and explain your purpose and intent at the tribal office or maybe the tribal college and they would decide if your purpose has merit and I suggest that you learn our non-verbal ways of showing respect before you take that journey.
I made repeated journeys with my grandmother to our relations back home attempting to serve our traditional teachings of our tribe. There were so few knowledgeable people that could or would teach our tribal knowledge that my search was fruitless. I spent a great deal of time with a Lakota Spiritual leader and attended his cerimonies and he taught me his ways. He knew I was Blackfeet which has a similar culture but I did not feel at home even though I respected him greatly.
[Barnaby's note] Much waffle removed. If you want to advertise, sorry, I mean drop mysterious hints about how super-secret and ancient and powerful your cult is, do it elsewhere.
To Educated_Indian the other point, I stated that Apocalypto authentically represented the existence of the twin relationships of Chac Mool and Gucumatz correctly intentioned to mean as standing an iconographic picture of chac mool and and iconographic picture of Gucumatz representing the two spiritual forces of the Mayan/Toltec at the late postclassic period of the Maya. I said that Apocalypto misrepresented the belief system. Mel Gibson incorrectly depicted the twin iconographies of Chac Mool and Gucumatz with a complete lack of piety and demeanor. I hope this allows you to understand what I meant more clearly. I was not happy either about the representation. I have mentioned my unhappiness before on other sites.
I will state again. I do not ever talk of our practices nor our methods nor our cerimonies and definately not the names of our elders. Our cosmology I talk about frequently. I do not describe specific facts of our history. I share exactly within the boundaries that my mandate dictates. I have asked of you a simple thing, keep my identity private because I came to you open with my identity.
Our tradition has a private forum. We do not advertise. We do not seek profit. We are shielded in a non-profit corporation now by design. We do not publicly describe our practices, cerimonies nor our prayers. The newest participant is with us for 12 years. We have near the exact number we are required to have to fulfill our tradition.
Everything I have shared has been with tacit approval of the only ones I am obligated to serve and please regarding our secrets and I have not betrayed our secrets. Our basic beliefs are contained in 13 volumes that I have writen that still do not contain our practices and methods those have to be taught one on one. The 13 volumes I have writen, I have done so with approval. They will never be published for public consumption yet I have spent the last 10 years writing them. They will be the intellectual property of the non-profit corporation. We want the educational part of our tradition to follow good scholastic guidelines that is why I contacted you. Not as a participant in our tradition but as a Native America educator that could judge a proper syllabus and teaching methodology. We have to face these issues and serve the best interests of our tradition and students. I believed you would provide us with a rigorous threshold in which to operate a teaching environment. Those were my thoughts on approaching you. If you feel there was any other motive, then I would say our communication was insufficient.
When I was young I spent time in some Lakota led Native American groups. Two names in your frauds list I had encountered while serving in those Lakota led Native American organizations. It upset me that you had two bonafide Native American spiritual people in your frauds board. It still upsets me.
In the movie "Apocalypto" the traditions that were exemplified in the city are a Toltec inspired pairing of two traditions of Quetzal Coatl and Tlaloc. The Mayan post classical resurgence in pyramid building is directly attributed to the Toltec who themselves were refugees from the North Central part of Mexico. The main capital of Tula was destroyed by war. The traditions were improperly and controversially presented in an impious and cynical way in the movie Apocalypto.
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Our last paragon of knowledge is the Chief of the Northern Blackfeet. He is very old and has had a heart attack and is constant care. He is spending his extremely valuable final years teaching and training.
Just a week ago Chief Adrian Stimson attended a band meeting and talked to the press (http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=5267ee0d-1657-4608-8bcc-5d6d55ef69d6&k=17669).
Now I think I will take Ric's advice.
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Like I said before, I am not involved with my tribal tradition nor its politics. I am sure you know which Reservation Chief Adrian Stimson is from. I have forgotten more than you will ever know about Native Americans.
Ric misquoted me.
Our last paragon of knowledge is the Chief of the Northern Blackfeet. He is very old and has had a heart attack and is constant care. He is spending his extremely valuable final years teaching and training.
Just a week ago Chief Adrian Stimson attended a band meeting and talked to the press (http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=5267ee0d-1657-4608-8bcc-5d6d55ef69d6&k=17669).
Now I think I will take Ric's advice.
[Once again, childish insults removed. This time four in a single message. For an alleged teacher of a tradition you are a very slow learner.]
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Tansi;
I am only posting this, since my name has been brought up, in a previous post. I have never quoted, but paraphrased some of the stumbling statements of this individual, who calls him/herself Nahualqo.
Since the Siksika people have a vibrant Traditional Culture, I can only imagine that N could not learn about his/her own Culture because he/she did not seek to. Expecially when one has been raised away from their Culture, it takes time and Respect to earn the Respect of those people who have lived in their Culture and be able to learn more about them.
Although this can be frustrating and takes time and Respect, it can be very fulfilling.
Ric