There are serious questions about Carnes and his group, and no amount of spamming, personal attacks on their critics, or other attempts to distract or change the subject will stop the questions from being asked. That includes Niska's threatening to hold her breath til she turns blue if we don't give in. She'll be banned at the next spam post, and won't be missed. In fact we can actually discuss instead of having to deal with childishness for a change.
These questions have been raised before, most notably by Kenny Frost. Carnes also has been criticized by Bernard Red Cherries and others.
These questions come down to:
1. Carnes runs what he calls a Sundance on Ute sacred land. He does this without the backing and with the actual opposition of Ute elders.
2. Carnes is Choctaw but runs an imitation of a Lakota ceremony. He also has appointed himself a "chief".
3. The Sundance has many non-Natives, including white Nuagers who occasionally promote Nuage ideas or leaders.
4. Carnes is accused of selling this ceremony and/or soliciting donations inappropriately.
There are also some other troubling things, which I'll go into in the next post. But here's Frost's statement. Carnes response is there too, along with comments on both posts.
The comments on that post are something else. A lot of smears on Frost for supposedly not signing his post, when the name was xxxed out by someone else. A lot of personal attacks and attempts to sidetrack and ignore the issues. IOW, the same behavior some of Carnes' supporters have done here.
At least IMHO, much of these problems could be avoided if Carnes would speak to Ute leaders, since he is conducting the ceremony on what he admits is likely their land.
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http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=113824469&page=2Selling Native Spirituality alive,well in Colorado
----------------- Bulletin Message
From: xxxxx
Date: Sep 8, 2008 10:33 PM
The time has come when we must expose those, who sell out Native Religion. We like to think those who run/conduct ceremonies are good people but we always find there are frauds around us. Even in our own people who are Native and there are those who are non-Native as well.
We read many times in the newspaper how many of those "SELF-APPOINTED" spiritual leader have committed fraud and have used people for their own source of income.
We need to wake up and stop these people. A sun dance is held here in Colorado and our Ute people are awaking up and saying enough is enough the time has come to stop people who are not of our people to run/conduct "Sacred Native Ceremonies."
We must expose those who are fakes and the time is now!
I'm a Ute Indian and do chase fakes in Colorado and other states. Having the support of Natives in Colorado, western US and Indian Country. I have been to the "Selling of Lakota Spirituality" meeting held at Bear Butte with Arvol Looking Horse, Bernard Cherries and many of the other spiritual leaders of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nokota peoples. Also with the Northern Cheyenne leaders and have the back of many Native tribes in Indian Country. Along with Indian Country Today newspaper and will send information of this travesty of fraud being committee.
The area where Ben Carnes lives is a sacred area for the Ute people just as other areas of all of Colorado is sacred to the Ute people. Having the backing of the Ute elders, we find the outrages conduct of Ben Carnes is shameful, deceitful and a fraud.
As a person who conducts ceremonies here on my Ute reservation you would never see me run/conduct a ceremony on other Indian tribal lands as this isn't RIGHT!!
Ben Carnes states he is Choctaw but living in Colorado. Running a Lakota style sun dance with non-Native taken part in fact, I was contacted by a non-Native who stated they given gifts, monies to Ben Carnes for his services and payment to attend this ceremony.
Our Native ceremonies are not "FOR SALE. Ben Carnes is a hypocrite.
How can a person talk about those who sell ceremonies and Ben is doing the same thing?
He travels north to Yellowstone and received payment for gas, food and lodge from the same white woman who has been selling ceremonies across the US.
I would like to learn these answers to these same questions. I will make a call to the Social Services department of Colorado for find out if this is true. In fact I will also make a call to the State of Colorado of impending fraud perhaps being committed. We must get down to the root of this.
This sun dance has never been approved by the Ute Nation of Colorado and of the Ute Nation of Utah as this are traditional territories of the Ute people.
So please Ben Carnes I would like to know the answers of these questions pose to you. As, being knowledge able of Choctaw people they were not many chiefs but were other types of leaders.
How can you call yourself a Chief? When you never received this from your own people?
The time is now to weed out those who take people for a ride in Colorado as I've been to quiet here in Colorado but been involved in other states exposing frauds and now it is time to work in my own state!
I will pose these questions now?
I find this is a mo of many of those who use people for their own selfish means!!
xxxxx
Ps. Borrowing monies from those who love our Ndn people.
Really, really sad!!!
