Author Topic: Hi everyone  (Read 8672 times)

Offline animist1

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Hi everyone
« on: December 14, 2017, 08:06:40 pm »
You can call me Star. I'm 18 and male, and am a junior in high school. I'm white. I am what some would call an Animist. I still study Wicca under a Gardnerian teacher because I wish to understand the process of ecstatic ritual and initiatory rites (these unfortunately cannot be found anywhere else).

I discovered that basically everything I read about Wicca/paganism/spirituality was a lie, and now I'm writing a short book about spiritual counterfeit and fraud and my experience. I came here to ask for some advice on how to avoid spiritual counterfeit, as well as look for examples and evidence to support the points I make.

I'm very happy to meet you all and am looking forward to your responses!

Offline BrandemeerHG

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Re: Hi everyone
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2018, 10:17:44 am »
Hi,

in my personal view Wicca and Animism are not compatible concepts. Animism is one aspect of many religious practices around the world, but focused on the land that has created your body and your connection to the environment.
Gardnerian Wicca is rooted in western ceremonial magic and Orders, like OTO or Freemasons. It includes Folklore elements and imitations of rituals which where described by ancient Roman and Greek texts or appropriated in non-european cultures. It is not bound to La Tene cultural or genetic roots (Celtic) or territories and can be practiced by everyone, like modern Christianity (Was once an ethnic religion too and linked to middle eastern environment) or many Indian and Classical Antiquity Mediterranian religions.

You said you came here because of avoiding spiritual counterfeit, that's a good intention, but very hard for an European person to manage, because, almost everything in European Neo-Pagan Groups is far from authentic practice and ancient ideas about the world and us.

We where raised in Nationalism and Christianity, so that we think that belonging to a group is defined by what we like or where we had been raised or migrated, but never by our real story, which is the story of our ancestors.

If you want to know something about the real history of Europe and yourself, you should better read archaeology and anthropological books and papers, instead of New-Age Stuff or Neo-Pagan literature.

I don't want to shower you with all that stuff that I read in the last years, but there are some nice books out there, published by the Landesmuseum für Vorgeschichte in Halle, some are in English, but they are not published in the USA, like this one: https://www.amazon.de/Mesolithic-burials-International-Landesmuseums-Vorgeschichte/dp/3944507436
So you have to search for yourself to find good an actual literature about European archaeology and anthropology in the US.

If you want to know who could have been your pre-christian Ancestors and which Landscapes had formed your body and mind beneath modern life, than you have to do commercial genetic testing on Autosomal Genetics, Paternal Lineage (Y Haplogroup) and mitochondrial DNA.

Another problem is, you will be alone, even if you know the lineage of your biological Ancestors in Europe's History, there are a few people who know this, even fewer who where interested in connecting with their relatives and building community to share stories and philosophize about the findings of the ancient past. Most people I met, are complete ignorant about this topic in general, they live in the here and now, no past, no tomorrow, they are not interested in their own story, only in politics.

It can be also hurtful for you personally, because there where many genocides in ancient Europe, forced cultural changes, the start of heavy destruction of environment and European ecosystem since late Neolithic times, and where will your ancestors be in this stories, what will be written in your genes? Europe is far from being a homogeneous place, there where many different ethnic groups beneath today's nationalism but they can only be visible via genetics, because their cultural roots are almost dead.

When I think of findings from ancient European cultures, I must mention that there where many bloody rituals, human and animal sacrifices, skull cult, skull masks, trophy hunt, tribal wars, many practices of ancestor worship, which where seen as pervert by today's Europeans and so called white Americans (Notice the bigotry!). Our modern concepts of gender equality, family, free will and individual soul are not compatible to many ancient European views/practices, so you must have the psychological strength to accept this facts when you read about them.

So in the point of animism, it can be said that there was a world in the last warming period, that cannot be imagined by today's people. Hyenas, Elephants, Lions, Pumas, Monkeys, Wisent, Aurochs, 3 Species of Rhinoceros, Wild Horses, Hamsters, Lemmings, Turtles and many more Animals lived in Europe before the last glaciation. Even in Mesolithic times, short after the disappearing of the ice sheets, there where more species of plants and animals than today, many had been wiped out by human practices of neolithic farming, clearing of the forests, bronze age mass settlements and cattle herding industry. So the landscapes of Europe had been disturbed since over 5000 years, what you see in Europe today is a environment which is always strongly formed by human settlement and economy. Animistic concepts often include a ban on using specific places, animals or plants for personal enrichment, and it seems, that this concept had been discarded, or strongly reduced in the prehistoric past of Europe.

The last tribal societies in Europe before the christianization where in contact with roman empire and also exchanged religious ideas with them like personalized gods, because of that they where the easiest to understand for us today, but they where also falsified by economical and cultural pressure. Many tribes worked as mercenaries of roman empire to survive. If you are interested in this, you should read this book, de Bello Gallico: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commentarii_de_Bello_Gallico

Ironically the Romans seem to believe, that all other people are also worshiping personalized gods, so they created many new gods in contact with foreign cultures, that never where worshiped before. And the Romans also believed that foreign Tribes worshiped their own roman gods, like modern Christians see in every foreign concept demons or Satan, because they believe their religious ideas are universal for everyone.

There are many sacred sites that you can visit in Europe, on some there are also museums or other information. Some ancient cemeteries and been tested for genetic ancestry so you can perhaps find out if your distant ancestors lived there.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Hi everyone
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2018, 09:40:27 pm »
I still study Wicca under a Gardnerian teacher because I wish to understand the process of ecstatic ritual and initiatory rites (these unfortunately cannot be found anywhere else).

Not sure what to make of this. I don't agree. At all. Wicca's underpinnings, including Gardnerian, are racist, pretendian and appropriative. While BritTrad isn't as newage and openly pretendian as many of the NeoWiccan strains, the roots of it are firmly based in the culture vulture, colonial imperialism of Garder's life as an Englishman in that era.

But nor do I agree with BrandemeerHG that you will "be alone" if you look for the authentic traditions. He seems to be from a very different world.  There are authentic cultural preservationist, revivalist and reconstructionist groups out there. Not everyone who claims to be doing it is honest. Some who claim to be animists and polytheists, even, are just appropriators, pretendians, fantasists, or some mashup thereof. But we have members here who are involved in authentic, traditional groups who are strong co-conspirators with Native relatives on Turtle Island.

If you want a bit of advice... I would suggest taking time to learn before rushing anything into publication, however. You may come to regret that when you get older and learn more. Many of us who cried over our rejection letters in our late teens and early twenties are now very relieved we didn't publish that stuff, now that we're older and (hopefully) wiser. But, young nons seem to like to publish as soon as they can now.

If you search from the main forum page on Wicca, there are a lot of discussions you might want to read, if you haven't yet. Here's one:    http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3687.0
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:39:51 pm by Defend the Sacred »

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Hi everyone
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2018, 09:45:06 pm »
There are many sacred sites that you can visit in Europe, on some there are also museums or other information. Some ancient cemeteries and been tested for genetic ancestry so you can perhaps find out if your distant ancestors lived there.

People who know their family histories don't need to do that. There are living cultures.

Offline BrandemeerHG

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Re: Hi everyone
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 05:53:18 pm »
People who know their family histories don't need to do that. There are living cultures.

True for people who had been able to protect their culture, not true for most Europeans because they where cristianized and ruled by nationalist leaders for hundreds of years that gave them new identities, so that they lost their connection completely. Genealogical records can only trace back to late middle ages, not as far as the pre-christan era.
The last European tribes had no writings, everything written about them is from christianized sources, Greeks, Romans or Arabians. Archaeological records are essential for proving or disproving these writings and reconstruction of ancient societies. Non-christian cultural practices had been forbidden by the christianized leaders, so nothing meaningful could pass to future generations, only in the form of fairy tales, folklore or christianzied rituals.

Do you know any European or white American person, who can trace their family history only based on generalogy to a specific, not christianized tribal community? I never heard of someone, only some fraud women who are claiming to be descended from witch families.

But yes, I´m from a different place and do not know what is practiced in the US today. In my youth I was involved in pagan activities in Germany and the form of paganism we practiced was mostly what is criticized in this forum, a mix between plastic shamanism, Aleister Crowley and Snorris Legends/Gardners Teachings, mixed up with some eastern influence of reincarnation beliefs, Vegetarianism, Tarot Cards, Astrology. Far from being authentic practice.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Hi everyone
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 06:44:32 pm »
We've talked about it a lot on here over the years, and I think I've already answered this. I don't have the energy to do the 101 again.

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Hi everyone - Living traditions and Historical Misconceptions
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 06:58:46 pm »
Do you know any European or white American person, who can trace their family history only based on generalogy to a specific, not christianized tribal community?

Yes.

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I never heard of someone, only some fraud women who are claiming to be descended from witch families.

All the traditional cultures I have experience with consider "witches" to be those who harm others. The people who think it's a positive word are almost always neopagans, who were taught misinformation about history. It's usually not their fault - they just don't know that the person who taught them didn't know what they were talking about.

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But yes, I´m from a different place and do not know what is practiced in the US today. In my youth I was involved in pagan activities in Germany and the form of paganism we practiced was mostly what is criticized in this forum, a mix between plastic shamanism, Aleister Crowley and Snorris Legends/Gardners Teachings, mixed up with some eastern influence of reincarnation beliefs, Vegetarianism, Tarot Cards, Astrology. Far from being authentic practice.

Agreed, that's not authentic. That's generic, eclectic hippie/newage/neoplaygan.

The real traditions have been preserved in communities that still have their languages, songs, and seasonal customs. Customs for how people are born, blessed, married and buried. Many "Euro" people lost their ways, but not all. Some communities only have fragments, but at least what they have is real, and can be built on. Most mainstream Euros come from cultures that did their best to genocide the small communities that were trying to keep their traditions, so the few people who still have these ways are not going to be cool with sharing them with everyone who wants to be involved. And many who show up expecting things to fit a certain model won't even realize what's there, and will miss it entirely.