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educatedindian:
*New note-DISPUTE RESOLVED. Thanks to Linda and Scott for their gracious apologies.*

Here's my response for them Vance. Please repost both of these posts:

Hello, my name is Dr. Al Carroll. I'm a historian who teaches for the Alamo Community College District. My heritage is Mescalero Apache, mixedblood, also Mexican and Irish.
Vance passed along to me some of the discussion you were having at your group and I'd like to clear up some misconceptions and outright lies that are being spread about us over at NAFPS.

Someone very ignorantly used the term "witch hunt". My guess is they've never faced prejudice in their life or they wouldn't so casually claim that protecting people from being misled, defrauded, lied to, and even raped or having their child molested by imposters posing as Native elders, somehow is the same as mass murder done in the name of religion.

I wish that person had not been too lazy to even bother reading our mission statement:
http://www.newagefraud.org/about.html
New Age Frauds & Plastic Shamans or NAFPS is an activist group of Native people and our supporters....
Ths site and forum is for those concerned about the fraud, deceit, money hunger, sexual abuse, racism, control, hunger for power and ego, and cult-like tendencies of the New Age movement and pseudo "shamans." We investigate and seek to warn the public about impostors and exploiters posing as Native medicine people or elders. There are more than two hundred impostors out there posing as Cherokee medicine people alone. Multiply that by five hundred Native nations in the US, and add on the exploiters who abuse or lie about practices of Latin America's Indians, and you get an idea of the sheer, massive scope of the problem.
What NAFPS Is and Is Not
We are not a "hate" group, any more than a rape crisis center promotes "hate" of men. This is one of the more ridiculous knee-jerk claims thrown at us. Many Nuage frauds are themselves blatantly racist in their contempt for Native people, beliefs, and wishes on these issues.
If anything we are an ANTI-hate group, a HateWatch group specializing in monitoring and warning the public about a special brand of racist, the Nuage fraud or pseudo-shaman leader.
We are not especially concerned about anyone's blood quantum, enrollment status, or family history. The only time we would care was if someone had lied in order to "pass" or appear "more Indian" to justify their misbehavior.
We accept all kinds of people: Native, white, black, Latino, Maori, traditionalist, Christian, pagan, atheist, Muslim, etc. We have members from an amazing variety of tribal backgrounds, Anishinaabe, Apache, Cherokee, Choctaw, Lakota, Lenni Lenape, Menominee, Munsee, Navajo, O'odham, and many others.
We at NAFPS make no claim to perfection. But... we do research the information we put out.
We seek to *prevent* harm to people, not cause it.... except to frauds, who we merely wish to bankrupt, drive out of business, or see thrown in jail for some of the worst abuses.
That means we take great care with our warnings and pronouncements. We *do* retract or alter them if new information comes out, or if we inadvertently harm people.
We feel free to disagree among ourselves. No one is punished for simple dissent....
And this gets down to the final point, again worth repeating: We are not a "hate" group, but are about as ANTI racist as can be.
Welcome to NAFPS. Feel free to join our forum and ask questions or comment.
We gladly accept help from all good people of conscience, because without them we can't stop these frauds. And without them, we wouldn't have had nearly as much success against frauds as we have."

educatedindian:
Pt 2
There was also another post wherein someone recited the usual romanticized Nuage nonsense. I think this person is, perhaps unwittingly, a perfect example of the dangers that the Nuage movement poses to Native people, especially those that were not raised in Native cultures. This person seems to have only learned Nuage ideas about Native beliefs rather than anything close to the truth. It's worth responding to that post point by point:

"To my understanding, the difference between religion as we generally mean it, and spirituality is that spirituality is, to a large degree, mystical in its expression."

Nonsense. One can be a member of an organized religion and be mystical as well. Almost any of the Catholic, Buddhist, or Santeria saints are good examples of that.

"In other words, a religion is dogmatic in nature, it's a collection of teachings that have been codified and the worshiper is taught, and must maintain, to the letter, at least to the extent the denomination or sect has interpreted it. Religion becomes more mystical when an individul's personal exerience or inspiration becomes more important. It's not what I'm taught by others, but what I experience, or am called to, that's the most important."

Also some pretty silly nonsense. In every Native tradition I know of, just your "experience" counts for very little. If a spirit calls you, that's not enough. After all, many spirits lie. Many spirits deceive. Many are downright evil. That's why you should consult elders. Otherwise your "experience" might actually be something to avoid. For that matter, it could be a sign you need counseling, not just spiritual but also psychological. There are far too many Nuage types claiming "spirit told me to" who frankly need a shrink.

Also, you seems to suggest a belief in anti-Christian bias, assuming that organized religion is somehow evil by nature.

Many Natives are Christian as well as traditional, and find no contradiction in the two.

There's also another problem with your claim which suggests you haven't been around Native people that much:

*Most Native Traditions Are Organized Religions.*

They have priesthoods and dogmas, and there's nothing wrong with either. ?

"So, if by definition, Indian spirituality tends more towards the latter, it can only be so "traditional."
Practicising it involves learning to pick up on, and heed direct influences sacred in nature."

Sorry, but that is frankly just so much Nuage gibberish, nothing close to any Native traditions.

Again, in every Native tradition out there, you need the counsel of elders, priests, or medicine people.

It's not only foolish to try and "experience" your way around forces as powerful as there are in nature, it's downright dangerous.

"I sometimes wonder if some of the hue and cry against "New Age bastardization" of Native spirituality isn't ironically the result of the Christianization of the Natives involved, influenced by the intolerance inherent in a proseletizing, dogmatic system of belief."

That tells me you don't know much about the issue at all. It's precisely the strongest traditionalists who are most opposed to Nuage exploitation, racism, and cultural imperialism, people like Arvol Looking Horse, Wendy Rose, etc. The Christian Indians aren't nearly so much caught up in this issue.

And here you seem to become outright bigoted. If all Christians are intolerant, how do you explain Martin Luther King? How do you explain the Abolitionists, Father Bartolome De Las Casas, Liberation Theology, the Peace Movement, ? hundreds of millions of Christians who don't fit your bigoted image of them?

I hope you can someday truly become as tolerant as you fantasize you are.
I also hope instead of falling for Nuage fantasies you turn to your elders instead.
After all, without our elders, Native traditions die. This is how Native traditions are TRULY passed on, not by "your own experience".

I invite everyone concerned about this issue to come to NAFPS.
http://www.newagefraud.org
We welcome everyone, even and especially those who have much to learn.
Dr. Al Carroll
Alamo Community College District

Vance_Hawkins:
Al the entire thread where this was discussed has dissapeared and my password no longer works.

hmmm . . . I guess I'll have to create a new identity to make the post . . . it might not stay up long, but we'll see. I guess she doesn't seem to want to be percieved of as wrong.

vance

Vance_Hawkins:
I sent it directly to Linda since she wrote it. Thanks, Al -- I appreciate it.

Vance_Hawkins:
Al, here is what the person said who attacked nafps -- "with hunt" might have my words.

I did sent your response to the person who wrote the material you are referriing to

From "Collins": [there are good "Collins" people there as well as this person]

"What I don't understand is who gives any of these people the authority to think they are the judges and jury on other groups that may be seeking out their heritage and exercising their right to self-determine and religous freedom?

Don't these people that do this realize that is why so many Native descended people do not like to talk about their Native heritage?

Why say you have Indian blood when there are people out there so eager to attack you for claiming who you are?

For along time Indians were hated. Now that there seems to be some respect and admiration for Native people and their culture some few want to tell others that they are not allowed to do this or that. That they are not allowed "to exapropriate" someone elses culture. What does that mean exactly? and who made them culture police?

If someone wants to run around wearing war bonnets and smoking God knows what in peace pipes why is that anyones business except the persons doing that?

If there are people out there that are mixing Native, Euro, and Eastern philosophies/traditions whose business is it to rail against them for exercising their freedoms of religion and association?

Why is it so necessary to pour negative attention on groups that may or may not have a legitimate claim to what their doing?

If they are legite then they will stand the test of time and gather the evidence to show to the skeptics.

Either way if someone or group does something you don't like then don't get involved with them.

==================== end of quote ------------

I believe I was the only person at the time that  spoke up about this comment and this is what prompted me to write in my resignation as moderator, after which I was banned from commenting at all -- I expected others to stand up as well and none did.

Having said that -- I will defend the group as many people there are good people and I still respect them, no matter how they feel about me. They have tried to earn respect with others in that region of the country and have earned some degree of respect.

So I am emotionally torn really.  I believe they are probably having an internal debate over this issue as we speak. Before going further here on this topic it will be best to see how that internal battle gets resolved. In my last comments there I invited them here to this site but none have chosen to do so.

vance

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