Author Topic: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman  (Read 651506 times)

frederica

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #345 on: May 05, 2008, 02:45:15 am »
Yep, I think she will play victim, another reason not to tape it. It would show she is not. But, all in all, it was a job well done.

Offline bls926

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #346 on: May 05, 2008, 03:08:27 am »
What happened today? Protests had been planned for all three days. Did anyone go to today's performance, to make sure she was keeping her word?

Offline Half-Wolf

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #347 on: May 05, 2008, 08:59:52 am »
mtig49:
good point!!  It had been forgotten that she also exploded when she told of her people in Europe being persecuted and burnt at the stake.  I (being as naive as I am) beleived her and thought of her Irish heritage, forgetting she was also a Strega Wiccan Priestess.  I have Irish friends who come and celebrate with us and I know the stories of their persecution are much the same as ours as are those of the black people.  Her story changed to suit what she thought would make her look good and draw sympathy, it did not work and Samantha's whisper in Rachel's ear fell on my left ear (I am somewhat deaf on that side) and was lost on the ground. 
Her word to us was kept yesterday as well whether by her or by her host who was seen speaking to us in the video I do not know, but the honor promised to us by her host (personally I think it was him) was kept. 
I would also ask that if any find her coming to their area they contact us and we will try to help keep her from doing anything there as we did here.  Hopefully we will make further strides forward and get the other sacred items she still holds and keeps from their rightful place.
"Live in this world today for tomorrow's children to live in this world."
-Helen Worischeck

Offline Half-Wolf

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #348 on: May 05, 2008, 09:26:36 am »
I found this response on another site to the issue of the drum not being returned to the Wamponag warrior whose blood was spilled.  The person who wrote this was chastising the people for not returning the drum to the Wamponag.  I will speak to the warrior whose blood is on that drum and find what he wants, but I think the statements here are good and need to said to remind us all that there are many feelings here and we need to be mindful of that and respect those ways when we make our decisions.  This person was told to speak to their elders because of the anger they had expressed at an individual who was not at fault in any of this but was learning why we are saying these things about the exploitation of our culture.

"A man who took me as a brother lost his nephew when he was murdered. He got caught between two gangs from two other ethninities. While he was trying to get ouit of the way, he ran between some buildings where he was ambushed by one of the gangmembers that was assigned to cut any of the other gang mambers trying to escape.
Now this was an extrodinary young man, great dancer, singer, warrior. He was lean, tall and had long flowing hair which he kept in two braids as is our way. When he was down, they took his hair. This happened right next to his home. He died in the arms of pregneant girlfriend. With the help of ome friends that I had with media connections we were able to get the two killers off the street, at least for a while. His hair was never recovered, we even offered to buy it back, no questions asked but to no avail.
So, I guess my question to her defenders is if they have a problem with what she did with this man’s blood. Do you condone it? Could you see any instance in which that behavior or action is called for? Could you even try to justify this action?
And no, I wasn’t in Mass for that melee. But I understand the emotions that are drawn on when confronted by things that one is sensitive to and very protective of. Yes there is much healing needed but one of the things you defenders need to understand is that we see these things differently from you. The things that we see her as “stealing??? are ours, given to us by the Creator for us to use. They are not interchangeable we can’t use Dine’ ceremonies, nor will they use ours. Our spiritual ways, except for the Peyote way, do not cross tribal lines, though each NAC Ytibal chapter does things a little differently each according to their tribe’s way. That’s all you need to know about that. So with that in mind, how can we be expected to accept or much less just turn our heads to to your friends activities while we aren’t even able or supposed to “give??? our ceremonies to our brother tribes. These are what makes us, US. This along with our language, culture and ways give us our tribal identities. I have told folks that I am American by consquence, if I am Christian, it is by choice but I am Indian by the Grace of God. If you can understand that, you are well on your way to understanding the underlying frustrations that make us challenge your friends ligitimacy to cinduct such activities. We do these things because we are supposed to, she does them by choice.
As for the rest of you who are trying to educate her defenders, I wish you luck. It is my feeling and prayer that they have heard you. By no means do I want her friends to dismiss her as a friend. That is not my intent, my intent is show them that many people, with legitimate ties to these ceremonies have a major beef with her. I am not even going to ask her defenders to accept our views but I hope that they will at least try to understand that many, many people are upset with this woman. I would hope that before they try to justify her actions, they will step back and look at it from the other side. I want them to say to themselves that they will be there to help her when it’s over but remember that any conflict that arises either through discourse or those unfortunate incidents in Massachusetts, it will be because she has chosen to proceed with her “Native American??? prayerformances. Respectfully, I have to remind you that she can no longer plead ignorance.
I must apologize to you Mr. Hannahulaku for singling you out earlier. I had to see what was lying beneath your elequent and well thought out responses to those questioning your friends actions. I believe that you are a sincere man and from what I can see, a very staunch and true friend. I have no pearls of wisdom for you but I wll give you this. See if you can find a Navajo that is well versed in “HOZO???, not the understanding you get from reading a book. Go out and actually find a Navajo or Dine’, as some prefer to be called. Ask them if they are willing to teach you. I am not Dine’, so it is not mine to give you. But if you can find that and someone to show you, I think it would help you see why conflicts like these arise and how to maybe help your friend with her problems. I have a feeling that you have spent time in New Mexico, Arizona or the Southwest, so you may have already had some exposure to it. I will ask you to convey to your friend rachel, that the opposition will not stop as long as she continues using any Native American aspect in her ceremonies. She has been told and I believe them when they that she will be left alone to do her thing as long as she doesn’t try to use or imply any Native American aspect to her ceremonies. At some point though she should address the blood taking incident, perhaps she should contact the one whose blood she took and try to make peace. I can’t give you any advice here because I don’t know how the Wamponoags handle situations like these. Sooner would probably be better than later. She also has to understand that this was a very grevious incident and might even be unforgiveable.
I have heard from some of the elders about what this woman did, We need to pity her, pray for her, she is lost and can’t find her center and she is trying to take the shortest path she thinks she can take to get there. I won’t share the rest of what was said because we have prolonged this enough, hopefully she will abide and we can all move on to other offenders."
"Live in this world today for tomorrow's children to live in this world."
-Helen Worischeck

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #349 on: May 05, 2008, 10:22:37 am »
good point!!  It had been forgotten that she also exploded when she told of her people in Europe being persecuted and burnt at the stake.

Ah, the I'm oppressed too, so I can do no wrong excuse, combined with falsification of history. That really p***es me off. There is no evidence of historical continuity - none whatsoever - between modern pagans like Holzwarth and the Europeans murdered by heretic-hunters in the Middle Ages.

Tens of thousands, not millions, of people were killed as witches over roughly four hundred years, starting in the 1300s. Contrast that with the bloody cost of medieval warfare: on a single day in 1461, over 20,000 men died at the battle of Towton in England.

Persecution of the perceived enemies of Christendom began in the 1100s with heretics, Jews and lepers. 'Witches' became a target in the 1400s. Their existence as an organised vanguard of Satan was as imaginary as the supposed Jewish conspiracy.

If Holzwarth has Irish ancestors who were persecuted, they are much more likely to have been oppressed after the witch-craze years, by the English, for being Catholic and Irish. Although Ireland was the place of the first generally recognised witch-trial in Europe, of Alice Kyteler in 1324, it was largely passed over by the madness that followed. Only three other people were executed as witches in Ireland.

Quote
...forgetting she was also a Strega Wiccan Priestess.

Anyone can call themselves a Wiccan priest or priestess. 'Stregheria' is yet another neo-pagan offshoot, inspired by the rediscovery of Charles Leland's book Aradia, Or the Gospel of the Witches. Before he wrote it in 1899, Leland had already grossly distorted Passamaquoddy, Mi'kmaq, Maliseet and Penobscot spirituality. See here. Aradia is probably a work of fantasy: these days he'd writing scripts for Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 10:43:30 am by Barnaby_McEwan »

Offline bls926

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #350 on: May 05, 2008, 02:17:14 pm »
Her word to us was kept yesterday as well whether by her or by her host who was seen speaking to us in the video I do not know, but the honor promised to us by her host (personally I think it was him) was kept. 
I would also ask that if any find her coming to their area they contact us and we will try to help keep her from doing anything there as we did here.  Hopefully we will make further strides forward and get the other sacred items she still holds and keeps from their rightful place.

Was anyone there to actually see that she was keeping her word? Or were you told this by her host? Remember her host is Edward Jones, who conducts Ojibwe sweat lodges and other ceremony at the Center of Light Spirituality. I think he commented on the things the Ojibwe Elder George had taught him, while he was meeting with y'all Saturday morning. In mtig49's video you can hear him saying "he passed on his teachings to me because of what I hold in my heart not what's in my blood". It's muffled but I'm sure that's what he was talking about. He went on to say "I honor all people. I heard that agreement. I absolutely insure you I will keep it." I'd like to believe him, but I don't know if we can really trust him either.

Offline mtig49

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #351 on: May 05, 2008, 03:17:51 pm »
yes one guy did go in and he talks about it in the video. So he did see for himself that her words was keept, for now! thats not to say that she may not be keepting it right now.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 03:19:55 pm by mtig49 »
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Offline Half-Wolf

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #352 on: May 05, 2008, 03:36:09 pm »
BLS: You need to learn to trust us.  We are taking our steps slow and sure, so we do not slip and lose our footing.  We are the ones who accomplished much here, we will not stop until our goal is reached.  If we do not tell you everything we know it is for a reason.  We know who he claims as his elder.  There are many things not on the video. There are many things not said here either.  What you should have seen on the video was people who were not hiding their faces.  Warriors who are standing tall and proud, unafraid and unashamned, teaching children to stand for what they believe, and show respect for those who deserve it. 
If you listened well you also heard him try to get us to leave and we did not.  You also saw the police not bother us, because they knew the issues.  We know what we are doing, if you are not here from this land, do not question us.  Let us handle our land.  If she comes to your land then you may lead and you will find we do not question you, but still will offer our help as best we can following your lead.
"Live in this world today for tomorrow's children to live in this world."
-Helen Worischeck

Offline bls926

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #353 on: May 05, 2008, 03:42:53 pm »
yes one guy did go in and he talks about it in the video. So he did see for himself that her words was keept, for now! thats not to say that she may not be keepting it right now.

That was Saturday. I'm wondering about Sunday's performance. Was anyone there yesterday?

Offline bls926

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #354 on: May 05, 2008, 03:49:02 pm »
BLS: You need to learn to trust us.  We are taking our steps slow and sure, so we do not slip and lose our footing.  We are the ones who accomplished much here, we will not stop until our goal is reached.  If we do not tell you everything we know it is for a reason.  We know who he claims as his elder.  There are many things not on the video. There are many things not said here either.  What you should have seen on the video was people who were not hiding their faces.  Warriors who are standing tall and proud, unafraid and unashamned, teaching children to stand for what they believe, and show respect for those who deserve it. 
If you listened well you also heard him try to get us to leave and we did not.  You also saw the police not bother us, because they knew the issues.  We know what we are doing, if you are not here from this land, do not question us.  Let us handle our land.  If she comes to your land then you may lead and you will find we do not question you, but still will offer our help as best we can following your lead.

Y'all did a great job and should be very proud of what was accomplished. It is not that I don't trust you. It's that I don't trust Holzwarth and her supporters.

Okay, no more questions. One comment though . . . I thought this was a joint effort, not solely a Michigan issue.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 03:50:55 pm by bls926 »

Offline Half-Wolf

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #355 on: May 05, 2008, 04:19:13 pm »
It is not solely Michigan.  The call for what is happening here is being handled in our way.  Maybe what you are not aware of is that during Friday's meeting the teleconference line was donated by the Native American's here.  On that telephone line were elders, leaders and healers from across the country.  Some who were invited and could not attend had expressed their issues beforehand and those issues were also raised.  The complete report of what occured has been communicated to them as well.  As I said, " If we do not tell you everything we know, it is for a reason ... There are many things not on the video. There are many things not said here either. "   I do not mean to sound harsh, but there is much at stake for all and some things must be kept and left unsaid.
"Live in this world today for tomorrow's children to live in this world."
-Helen Worischeck

Offline bls926

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #356 on: May 05, 2008, 04:24:32 pm »
Sorry. It was a simple question. Do we know for sure she kept her word on Sunday? That's all. Wasn't asking for anything more.

Offline mtig49

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #357 on: May 05, 2008, 04:27:26 pm »
it was and still is a joint effort from all natives. Just look around you will see people from all parts of US with comments making phone calls and anything they can to help. Just because this last part happen to happen in Michigan don't make in a michigan thing. If it was in any other state you would see the same comments. I am from michigan but someone not from michigan but ws online unformed me, and there had been lots of work done by that time. Just because this all just happen in michigan does take away or over ride all the work everyone has done to this point.
"Support bacteria. They're the only culture some people have."

Offline mtig49

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #358 on: May 05, 2008, 04:33:17 pm »
   I do not mean to sound harsh, but there is much at stake for all and some things must be kept and left unsaid.

There are things in the works right now that if we talk openly about them it would risk too much of everyone work! All it would take would be one wrong person to see it and that work would have been for wasted. As soon as it safe to talk openly i am sure here will be one of the first place you see it.
"Support bacteria. They're the only culture some people have."

Offline Half-Wolf

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Re: Suraj Holzwarth aka White Eagle Medicine Woman
« Reply #359 on: May 05, 2008, 04:37:46 pm »
OK, I think we are all on an even footing. BLS, just trust that Michigan is doing (as the police would call it) due diligence if there were something else to report you would hear it by now.  Everything is going according to plan.  The big question now is where will she walk to next, since she cannot fly because they took her wings!  :)  If support is needed let us in Michigan know and we will do all that we can.  I just wish the camera could have shown the roughly 100 people who were there on Friday.  Rachel (she HATES that name!) did not expect that and it was obvious.
"Live in this world today for tomorrow's children to live in this world."
-Helen Worischeck