Author Topic: Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters  (Read 26966 times)

Offline Freija

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Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2007, 09:05:24 am »
Hi A.R.

I could say a lot about your accusations but I understand that Swedes are not your favourite people...so I will refrain from posting on this topic again.

I have the deepest respect for the original traditions of any people, especially all indigenous people  (I am sorry if you see that as another gospel ) that´s why I am doing what I am doing - but to me it is a HUGE difference between the New Age world´s "totemanimalcourses" during an expensive weekend  and the spirituality of the real people! And also, in the case I joked about, the very stereotypical fantasy-world that surrounds Ndn:s. If they don´t have a totemanimal, they are no real Ndns!! It just adds to the way that Ndn:s are seen as something coming out of a New Age book instead of real people. Why aren´t they getting asked about the situation on the rez instead? Or how we, non-Natives, can help in the struggle for justice? No, Natives are in many cases there to fullfill the white world´s need of fantasies and dreams. And many of them, including us who support them, are getting sick and tired of it, hence the ironical jokes.

If you don´t see the difference between a real - and sacred! - Native American ceremony and a fraudelent ceremony organised for money/sex/ego - which according to most traditionalists is not sacred since the spirits do not come in - then I can fully understand your confusion. 

To compare the attempt to protect the true Native spiritual traditions to the Swedish occupation of Finland....is...like....wow!!  :o   (I think we were pretty good at colonizing Turtle Island, too....yet none of the rightful landowners in here have in any way been disrespectful.)

Well, Easter is gone and over (almost) and I have to go back to work. Thanks for the discussion. By the way, I have many Finns in my extended family. No hard feelings there.... ;)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 10:28:50 am by Freija »

Offline Moma_porcupine

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Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2007, 12:42:48 pm »
AR
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It is all very well for the Native Americans to "educate" nonNatives about genuine Native American and New Age differences, this is good, but I guess one could make a whole list these things, that does not apply to others, yet they are being applied to others. 

Looks like this accusation is just a way A. R. can get around looking in the mirror and seeing one of those arrogant non native people telling ndns what to do , and who can help them do it . 

Doing a search on "Totem" the only entry that comes up that has no claim of it being Native or teaching Native ways is here .

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=669.msg3324#msg3324
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Animals
Totem Animals may be Ancestors.
Animal Readings help you utilize your best personality traits.
Regular reading ($90/hour):
Totem reading ($100.00/hour)


this was Al's initial response ;
educatedindian reply #1
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This brings up something interesting. Since she makes no claim of being Native or teaching
Native ways, why do you ask us to research her?

So  A. R. where is anyone here claiming expertise on Finno - Urgic traditions and identifying practioners of these traditions as frauduent ? Where is anyone here claiming expertise on Australian traditions , and identifying people making false claims about Australian practices ? I think you are just making this up so you can play the victim and try and claim you have a right to tell Native people what to do  . 
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( editied to add )
If you go back a couple generations most people on this planet have lived through some sort of serious persecution . It doesn't follow that because people have a heritage that is Chinese, African , Armenian, Jewish ect , they have a right to tell American Indians what they should and should not be concerned about and who is allowed to support them in their concerns .
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I doubt A.R. would be interested , but for people who do have questions about the role of non Natives supporting native concerns  , the book by Rupert Ross , "Dancing with a Ghost", might help people understand why non native and mixed blood supporters can be so helpful, when it comes to communicating with arrogant mouthy non natives who don't listen and won't take "No" for an answer . The book talks about how these differences in culture can make it really hard for Native people who are still deeply connected with their own culture , to deal with the non native justice system - and non native culture in general. The pushy non native way tends to walk right over the averted eyes and silence, which in many native cultures is a loud and clear "NO".  So  mixed blood and non native people are often more able to do the necessary yelling in peoples ears ,that seems to be required for many non native people to listen . 

The important thing is that Native peoples intrests are truely being represented , not who is representing them . ( and A.R. has yet to tell exactly who's intrest she thinks she is representing - though it is obvious with her stance on non natives being unable to support native interests , the exploiters must love her   )

« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 03:41:34 pm by Moma_porcupine »

Offline AndreasWinsnes

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Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2007, 02:59:35 pm »
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It seems that Western Europeans take every word the Native Americans speak about "indigeousness" as a gospel; - or haven't you noticed it as yet !

I wrote earlier in this thread:

"NAFPS will just continue its work, not that this organization should be the measure stick for natives around the world."

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For me this is like going back in time all over again, back in time when we were so ridiculed for our Totemism; - and it is as though nothing has changed. It is the same all over again, and in this time it takes place in NAFPS forum.

NAFPS tolerates irony, and I hope you do to.

Unfortuneatly, it seems like you are seeing trolls in this forum that does not exist. But if some members write wrongfully about your culture, please tell.

What Norwegians and Swedes have done do the Sami culture is unexcusable, so also was the concquest of Karelia. I support the full independence of Sápmi. And I certainly support your stance against Harner. So I believe this dispute between you and us other members of this forum is at least based partly on misunderstandings, and should be solved without arguing.

But why do you use the word "shaman" when you are not Evenk? Would it not be better for your own culture if a Karelian title was used? In comparison, Norse believers don't call themselvs shamans, but "seidkone" for instance. That breaks monocultural tendencies.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 03:15:15 pm by AndreasWinsnes »

Offline educatedindian

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Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2007, 05:43:09 pm »
Glad to finally meet you AR. Shall we call continue to call you AR, or Anneli? I'm guessing the last name of Rodney came from marrying an Australian?

"when it comes to the my reference to Nazi, two of my uncles fought beside the Saami in Lapland against the Nazi invasion...." followed by more personal history.

And after all of that, I still have no idea how Native people stopping abuse has anything to do with Nazis.

"We were shamed and ridiculed for our animist beliefs and our shamanic culture"

Well, it looks like this is going to keep happening, you using a term used by outsiders, and then defending any criticism of that outsiders' term as somehow an "attack".
 
"I do hope, that I have created a question mark around the whole issue for both Natives and non-Natives here."

The only question that's been raised so far has been why you keep making these tortured, roundabout analogies.

"It seems that Western Europeans take every word the Native Americans speak about "indigeousness" as a gospel; - or haven't you noticed it as yet !"

LOL! I only wish it were true. Much more often it seems Europeans take the word of outsiders trying to define tribal cultures as gospel, much as you are doing with your own heritage. 

"we do talk about Totems in my neighbourhood here in Australia locally, as the person may talk about his or her own, or is pointing out the Totems of others to me .... and this is just in a normal ordinary everyday conversation, and there is nothing New Age about it"

You claimed earlier that Sami and Siberian cultures were related.

From my brief contact with Sami when I came to Sweden, I know they have their own lists of things that are not to be talked about openly, or only with certain people or at certain times. I have a hard time believing they'd come on the net and tell everyone about very private experiences.

NAFPS had a member for several years, Huhanna Hickey, who was Maori and Australian Aboriginal. She mentioned many times similar protocols about what was and what was not to be discussed.

So I have hard time believing tribal people in either Scandinavia or Australia walk around saying, "Hey! What's your totem, dude?" like people in the 70s would ask people their zodiac signs. 

A.R.

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Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2007, 11:03:34 pm »
Andreas

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Unfortuneatly, it seems like you are seeing trolls in this forum that does not exist.
Andreas

You are right.  As soon as you started to talk more, I realized just how genuine you are, and this started to weigh on my conscience. 
My apologies, please forgive me.   I also applaud your interest in your own Nordic culture.

And of course in my own culture the name for a "shaman" is Tietaja.

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NAFPS tolerates irony, and I hope you do to.
Andreas


Here I do disagree, in my mind it cheapens what is real and genuine, and that which is so fragile in this day and age must be preserved for future generations.

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So I have hard time believing tribal people in either Scandinavia or Australia walk around saying, "Hey! What's your totem, dude?" like people in the 70s would ask people their zodiac signs.
Educatedindian

Just because people tell you what their Dreaming is, it is never ever talked about in this manner.
Educatedindian, how can you possibly talk about it in this downgrading manner if you know just how important it is to live this aspect of your Culture. And then you talk about protocols about discussing things. I really do not get you on this.
 
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You claimed earlier that Sami and Siberian cultures were related.

Though Saami are a "separate" group, Saami language belongs to the Finno-Ugric language family,  and through a long coexistence, there are a lot of things Karelians and Saami share in common and in general with other Finno-Ugrics.

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From my brief contact with Sami when I came to Sweden, I know they have their own lists of things that are not to be talked about openly, or only with certain people or at certain times. I have a hard time believing they'd come on the net and tell everyone about very private experiences.
Educatedindian

I keep on repeating, that it is an open secret, but you do not understand what I am saying here.

When you go to the land of Saami, the spiritual culture is all around you, if you have the eyes to see it, same here in Australia.   And all of a sudden your private experiences and that of others aren't so private any more, this IS the thing.

A.R.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 11:15:44 pm by A.R. »

Offline naparyaq

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Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2007, 09:13:10 am »
My opinion - I can see no reason for non-Natives not to participate in stopping exploitation. I think that they not only should, but indeed have a particular obligation and responsiblity to. To ignore that which you know is wrong is to be party to it.
We're in a situation right now where non-Natives (and Natives too) know that something is exploitative and wrong and are silent and take no steps to correct it.
Perhaps because they think it's nothing; perhaps they gain something from the error, and secretly don't want it corrected. Perhaps they just don't want to take any ownership of it, even when it is directly their concern. Perhaps they just don't care.

A.R.

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Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2007, 02:06:04 am »
Jacob Holdt:

http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/aid.htm

In Copenhagen, Denmark I was deeply touched by the "soulfulness" of Jacob Holdt; - impressed by his warts and all truthfulness and his integrity in telling it.   Visiting him at his home and listening to his stories "the world was once again saved" for me, for he restored my faith in Danish having a role in stopping racism and the exploitation of Natives, whoever or wherever they may be !

Because my closest circle of friends at the time consisted of Finns, Africans, West Indians and other assorted foreigners, I had witnessed the same most paternalistic racists master race attitudes from colonial times masquerading as help; - directed towards my friends.   It was down right painful for me too to live witnessing it.

So what a  relief it was then to meet Jacob !  

A.R.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 02:20:30 am by A.R. »

Laurel

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Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2007, 10:04:33 am »
naparyaq/all,

I feel I have a duty as a human being to speak out against spiritual exploitation in all its forms, and I do--to the point of having lost so-called friends over it.  However, I also feel that it would be wrong for me to claim to speak for anyone else.  I generally say something along the lines of, "I think if you do some reasearch you'll find that many Native Americans" et cetera.  If the person doesn't go off in a defensive snit, I recommend better books for them to read.

I'd love to know, from anyone on the board, what else I could do as a writer and a human being.

I think there used to be a list up on one of the NAFPS sites of things non-Natives who would like to help with Native causes in general can do, but IIRC it wasn't completely geared toward stopping exploitation.  Is it still up somewhere...?


Laurel

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Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2007, 04:57:37 pm »
The very list I meant, thanks!  I thought I'd seen it at NAFPS. 

Offline Ganieda

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Re: The Role of NonNatives in Stopping Exploiters
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2007, 04:50:04 am »
Quote
the book by Rupert Ross , "Dancing with a Ghost", might help people understand why non native and mixed blood supporters can be so helpful, when it comes to communicating with arrogant mouthy non natives who don't listen and won't take "No" for an answer .
I've read the book.  I highly recommend it. 
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My opinion - I can see no reason for non-Natives not to participate in stopping exploitation. I think that they not only should, but indeed have a particular obligation and responsiblity to. To ignore that which you know is wrong is to be party to it.

I did not speak...

"First they came for the Communists ;
I did not speak because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews ;
I did not speak because I was not a Jew.
Then they came to fetch the workers, members of trade unions ;
I did not speak because I was not a trade unionist.
Afterwards, they came for the Catholics ;
I did not say anything because I was a Protestant.
Eventually they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak ..."


Martin Niemöller,Pastor
Dachau, 1942.
*May the Sun warm your Heart, The Moon light your Path and Sacred Mother Earth embrace and protect you always.*