Moma Porcupine writes:
"I guess I have terminal curiousity. I have been continuing to dig. First of all, I see the Sand Hill band website is owned by Sam Beeler http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/sandhillindians.org Quote Registrant Email:beeler[AT]cherokeenation.zzn.com Admin ID:tuCkc8L9GjU7nssB Admin Name:Sam Beeler Admin Organization:NJ Sand Hill Band So presumably he is responsible for the information posted there." Shkaakwus replies:
I thought we acknowledged this, already.
Moma Porcupine writes:
"If someone wanted to defend Beeler from unfair skeptism, it would help if they could explain is why a tribe with a real history and real culture would be making so many claims that seem to be bogus. I'm not disputing that there is proof of a group of people in the area of Neptune who have both Lenape and Cherokee heritage, and who have retained a memory of their heritage and and identity based on this. What makes me doubtful is how many aspects of the history being presented by Beeler doesn't seem to agree with other sources." Shkaakwus replies:
The sentence I've put in boldface type is the kind of dismissive, condescending put-down which causes me to respond in a way which you, then, characterize as "obnoxious." You've failed to ever read the sources on the Sand Hill Indians I provided the first time I was here, nor have you done so yet. Still, you think you can arrogantly deign to characterize the significant cultural retentions of the Sand Hill Indians as "a memory of their heritage and identity." You persist in talking about them this way, though it appears obvious that you've never met a single one of them, nor have you bothered to read any of the accounts of them in the literature. As A. Hyatt Verrill wrote:
"...these Indians have yet retained their old tribal customs, councils, ceremonials, arts and crafts, and their clan system, as well as their chieftainships, although surrounded by the whites and civilization for over two hundred years." [in Verrill, A. Hyatt,
The Real Americans, New York (1954), page 100] Further information on their history, traditional craftwork, medicine practice, green corn dance, and other customs is provided in this and the other sources I've cited. One has to read these before presuming to characterize the Sand Hill Indians as one of your so-called "PODIA" groups--or, in any way, whatsoever, for that matter. In other words: You have to know what you're talking about,
first!
Moma Porcupine writes:
"What initially seems to have made people think something was fishy was the seemingly exaggerated emphasis Beeler puts on the Cherokee heritage of the Sand Hill band and that his website repeatedly seems to use distorted or inaccurate historical information to support these claims. Responsible researchers generally quote what they are reffering to and then explain how they are interpreting this, because they have enough humility to understand their own interpretation of the facts is not a fact in itself. Making a claim and providing documentation , does not mean you have made a documented claim - no matter how much you want to believe it does." Shkaakwus replies:
Regarding what I've put in boldface type, immediately above: It seems to me, this entirely depends on the quality of the documentation being cited. Of course, that can't be judged by somebody who has never read those sources. You say,
"...they have enough humility to understand their own interpretation of the facts is not a fact in itself." And, I would add that the relevant facts cannot be interpreted by someone who doesn't know what those facts are. If I write, "the Delaware Indians once made petticoats of hemp and moccasins of corn husks"--and cite my sources for this information--it is not up to me to provide you with the actual quotations from those sources! Sources are cited so you can check what I'm saying, if you're so inclined. A written history is not a series of quotations!
Moma Porcupine writes:
"It's already been pointed out the claim Beeler's Cherokee version of Sand Hill history is recognized by the Nuyagi Keetowah is pretty flimsy." Shkaakwus replies:
No such claim was ever made! The claim is that the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society recognizes that the Cherokee background of the Sand Hill Indians is authentic and legitimate. Where is the claim made that the NKS recognizes "Beeler's Cherokee version of Sand Hill history"?
Moma Porcupine writes:
"Then there is stuff like this... http://www.sandhillindians.org/time_line.htm Quote 1711-1713 First recorded migrations of Keetoowah-Cherokee people into New Jersey *2 and 3 This community [1711-1713] is the core group from which the Nuyagi Keetoowah were established.*2 and 3" The sources given are 3 books- not references to primary documentation, but maybe this is found in the books. The problem is, I don't see an explanantion of who these people were ( their names) and the lines of descent which connect the present day descendents to this alleged core group of Cherokee... So if some Cherokee people did move into the area in 1711 , I don't understand how they connect to the present community? What were their names ? Who were their kids and grand kids ect ?" Shkaakwus replies:
"They have some Cherokee blood from members of the latter tribe who passed New Jersey on a northward migration in 1713." [Verrill, ibid., p.100] This is part of their traditional oral history! On the "Red Record" thread, the administrator of this forum, as well as others, argue that this kind of history is to be given equal weight with the historical accounts written and documented by whites. Now,
you demand the white version (i.e., "documentation") as the only source of authority you'll accept! How many CNO, UKB and EBC Cherokees can provide you with an unbroken chain of genealogical documentation showing who
their Cherokee ancestors were, living in the period, 1711-1713? (I'll wager the answer is "none.")
{I have eliminated, from my reply, all your references to John Ross and his habitations during the Civil War, etc. It has nothing to do with the Sand Hill Indians, other than that it exhibits one Sand Hill Indian's pride in his Cherokee roots, and his pride in finding that there is another Cherokee-New Jersey connection. It's his website. He can write about anything he wants to, and can decide how much space is taken up by whatever he desires.}
Moma Porcupine writes:
"I did find a Sand Hill Indian history website which includes more complete genealogical information - along with the origins of the Sand Hill Indians which names names and explains lines of descent . This is the website belonging to Claire Garland -.http://www.sandhillindianhistory.org/ ( I am quoting from various chapters within this website - just to give a brief summery ) Quote Finding themselves on the losing side of European conflicts, Joseph and Rebecca Richardson lost their homelands in the Cherokee territory of Georgia and migrated north on the Appalachian Trail with their twelve children to join relatives in New Jersey. The youngest son, Isaac Revey Richardson, was born April 10, 1818 in Eatontown village at the family home on South Street and Richardson Avenue. Isaac Revey Richardson was the grandfather of Ryers Crummel, Adeline Richardson Thomas, Robert Richardson, Jonathan Richardson, Julian Russell Richardson, Charlotte Richardson, Theodora Richardson Bell and James and Robert Revey. Quote After hiding out in the mountains for a while, Ike's forefathers chose to make a better life for themselves by moving north following the Appalachian Trail. They lived with their Lenape cousins, the Reveys in the area called Shrewsbury, of which Eatontown village and the hamlet of Tinton Falls were a small section. Since Isaac married Elizabeth Revey from New York, part of the Sand Hill history is tied to Manhattan. Quote In 1818 full-blooded Cherokee Indian, Isaac Revey Richardson, was born to Rebecca and Joseph Richardson in the small village of Eatontown , NJ, (just a few years after the British burned the White House). Indian Ike was the youngest of twelve siblings, some of whom remained in the mountains of Georgia when the family left or migrated westward to Ohio , Indiana or Oklahoma and were never heard from again Quote In 1826 Ike's parents, Rebecca and Joseph Richardson, bought property near South Street in Eatontown village, near several other Revey and Richardson families. Quote Ike's four sons, Isaac W., Theodore, Richard and Joseph Richardson, owned fifteen acres of farmland at Sand Hill buying the property in 1877 Quote In 1844 Ike married Elizabeth S. Revey, a distant cousin from New York, at the Trinity Church in Lower Manhattan. Her parents, Susan and Richard P Revey, are buried at the Indian Burial Grounds, now called Shadow Lawn Cemetery on Squankum Road in Tinton Falls, NJ. Ike bought property in 1845 near his parents near the Pine Brook on Richardson Avenue in Eatontown village. Isaac and Elizabeth's four sons, Isaac W., Theodore, Richard, Joseph, and four daughters, Emma, Elizabeth, Susan, Restella (and one stillborn child) were born there Quote A relative Jonathan Richardson was "bounded out for a period of one year to Jacob Corlies". If he remained for the year, he would receive three months of schooling and a new suit of clothes. http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:NxaE96oeLkcJ:sandhillindianhistory.org/chapter6.pdf+%22Sand+Hill%22+Crummell&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca Quote Chapter 6 The Family Grows http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:Iv-PSu6H8KYJ:sandhillindianhistory.org/chapter7.pdf+site:sandhillindianhistory.org+Cherokee+Crummel+%22new+jersey%22&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca " Shkaakwus replies:
Yeah. I posted a link to this website of Claire Garland's at the Woodland Indians Forum, over a year ago, on March 16, 2008, and recommended it to everybody; and, I posted a link to that post near the end of the Sand Hill Indian Pictorial thread, at that same forum, which you've been reading. Not sure what it is you're trying to prove by posting all this. It's traditional oral history of the Richardson descendants, for the most part. I particularly liked this passage regarding the Richardsons--just after moving north, from Georgia:
"They lived with their Lenape cousins, the Reveys in the area called Shrewsbury..." So, these "unrelated" Cherokee Richardsons called the Lenape Reveys their "
COUSINS"! LOL! (I hope I don't have to explain the wry irony in this statement, given what's transpired, to date, on this thread!)
Moma Porcupine writes:
"Quote Chapter 7 The Clan Expands What I found interesting is some of the family names of people related to the Sand Hill Indians I see in this source. i listed most of them below ...
Richardson Revey Crummell Morris* Vandeveer* Thomas* Burkhard* Bell* Fox* Coleman* Johnson Cook* Clark* Fitzgerald* Dickerson*
I also found some old photos of the Sand hill Indians ( Yeah I know Ray has posted links to some other pictures already )
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gjUqYLfH5ugC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=%22Sand+Hill%22+
Crummell&source=bl&ots=ofBPW_pKlc&sig=eK_rxbddfUqxmFK2cHW1n94pafk&hl=en&ei=r3cUSriSLaaItA
PhkJzfDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10
Quote Neptune and Shark River Hills By Evelyn Stryker Lewis Edition: illustrated Published by Arcadia Publishing, 1998 ISBN 0738556998, 9780738556994 128 pages In 1949 there is a picture of Sand Hill people surnamed Bell* Gardener* Dickerson* Thomas* Fox* (Gaines ?) Holman* James ( Lone Bear) Revey Richardson Crummell The thing that strikes me is the differences between the family names given by these sources and the names on Beelers website . http://www.sandhillindians.org/familynames.htm Beelers list has James Revey's name at the end of it and a date of 1973. If James Revey made this list, as it appears, I am not sure why it seems to not include many of the closely related family members who were Sand Hill Indians ." Shkaakwus replies:
As I already wrote, in a previous post, the Sand Hill Indians enumerated, on their rolls, the New Jersey Indian families with whom they associated, over the years, beginning in 1887. The names changed over time, as other Cherokee and Lenape people, previously unassociated, arrived in Monmouth County, or, simply, came to be known. (Such is the case with the Holloways.) Jim Revey cited names from several of these rolls, on lists he compiled for various purposes. He only cited Indian surnames. He didn't list the surnames of non-Indians who married into the band. These lists you cite include many non-Indian names of this latter sort. To my knowledge, Jim never made a single complete list. He'd just name some, usually from memory, if he was just talking to you--or, jotted them down on a piece of paper. In one published list, for example, he gives the names, Douglas, Myers, Crummel, Whitaker, Richardson, Waters, Horner, Armstrong, Clay, Ashton, Van Etta, Hill, Ray and Revey. [Weslager, Clinton A.,
Magic Medicines of the Indians, Somerset, NJ (1973), page 125.] As you can see, a lot of these names are NOT found in the lists you quoted, but many (though not all) are included in the list on Sam Beeler's website. This all goes back to the two competing definitions of "Sand Hill Indian." Some confine the term to the Revey-Richardson family. Others include all those listed on the rolls kept by the Sand Hill Indians. The lists you cite adhere to the first definition. The lists published by C. A. Weslager and Sam Beeler accord with the second definition. And, by the way, individuals in the New Jersey American Indian Hill, Ray and Douglas families were Jim Revey's direct ancestors. They aren't anywhere to be found on Claire Garland's website, because they don't fit the more narrow definition of Sand Hill Indian she favors.
Moma Porcupine writes:
"And of course the other question that comes up is how does Sam Beelers grandmother Sarah Holloway connect with this family which was named for the place they lived _ Sand Hill ?" Shkaakwus replies:
Once again, you fail to recognize that
most Sand Hill Indians did
not live on Sand Hill (no matter which definition of Sand Hill Indian you choose). This could all be cleared up, nicely, if those who cleaned out Jim Revey's office, after he died, would release the documents and rolls he held at the office. (Providing, of course, they weren't all thrown out in the garbage.) In any case, see Sam Beeler's certification as a Sand Hill Indian, here:
http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=25830#p25830 The Holloway connection to the Sand Hill Indians is geographical and temporal (at least, in the main). The Cherokee, Sarah Holloway, was born in Sea Bright, Monmouth County, NJ, in 1900, where her family was then living. She would have been enumerated in the Sand Hill Indian rolls, early in the 20th-century, evidently. Sea Bright is about 4 miles down the Shrewsbury River from Eatontown (where Ike Richardson was born); 2 miles from Little Silver (where Johnson Revey lived); and about 6 miles from where Claire Garland lives, today. And, for a time, Sarah Holloway's family resided at Whitesville, in Neptune--the location of Sand Hill. A photograph of Sarah Holloway, in Indian regalia, can be seen in the Sand Hill Indian Pictorial thread, at Woodland Indians Forum, here:
http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2609 [picture #5].
Moma Porcupine writes:
"And lastly in reply to a few of the more personal comments shkaakwus Quote If I didn't know that you're deliberately misquoting what I wrote, for your own purposes, I'd think you're in dire need of some reading comprehension exercises. I NEVER said this letter was "written by Herbert C. Kraft." Actually i'm deliberately trying to be polite and stay with the actual questions without getting diverted into who has the stupidest most obnoxious personality. In this case you are absolutely right. I did misread what you wrote and i am very sorry for thinking you made a typo when it was a problem in my own reading comprehension." "shkaakwus Quote The letter proves he did know Sam Beeler--contrary to your conjectural interpretation of his words. I never asked if Revey actually knew or met Beeler and you are inventing a question which wasn't there Presumably Mr Revey met many people who were distant relative who he liked. That doesn't make them all chiefs of the Sand Hill band. Obviously whether or not Mr revey actually met Sam beeler and liked him is not relevent to Beelers claim to be Revey's successor as Chief of the Sand hill's band." Shkaakwus replies:
Your poor reading comprehension skills are showing, again. The quotation: "
The letter proves he did know Sam Beeler" does
not refer to Jim Revey! It refers to Herbert C. Kraft. So, right after apologizing for misreading what I wrote, you do the exact same thing, again!
Moma Porcupine writes:
"shkaakwus Quote Herbert C. Kraft's lament over the passing of his friend had NOTHING to do with the Sand Hill Indian "chieftaincy." Yes, you have a good point there and that is something else I noticed. This seems to be more evidence supporting the version of the story that Mr Revey was more of a patriarch than a Chief. If James Revey was the Chief of the Sand Hill band, surely this would also have been mentioned in the obituary?" Shkaakwus replies:
Above, you cite the book,
Neptune and Shark River Hills, By Evelyn Stryker Lewis. In a recent post (May 2, 2009) at the Archaeological Society of New Jersey List, Evelyn Stryker Lewis wrote:
"As former curator of the Neptune Historical Museum and Neptune Township historian it was my pleasure to know Jim Lone Bear Revey as a colleague and friend. The museum hosted a standing exhibit on the Sand Hill Indians of Neptune (of which he was chief) as well as archives documenting their history and geneological descent -made available mostly through Jim's generosity." [boldface type supplied by Shkaakwus] You have to understand the Lenape concept of who is a "Chief." A Chief is somebody who is regarded as such by his people, and recognized as such by others. In the old days, the same word ("kikeyjumhet") was used for "elder" (cf. "patriarch") and "chief" in Lenape communities.
Moma Porcupine writes:
"Quote when I was here last time you actually called all of the Sand Hill Indians PODIA's, and once even suggested that they might be Chinese! LOL! If this thread was about Claire Garland, instead of Sam Beeler, you'd be after her. I don't want to get sucked into arguing with you about what was and wasn't said. if anyone cares and doesn't miond getting a headache I uploaded the first page of that discussion into a google doc. People can read for themselves what was said - in context - in the link below.
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcwzmv4g_114d36phrgx " Shkaakwus replies:
Excellent! Thank you.
Moma Porcupine writes:
"Yes if Claire Garland was making the same claims as Sam Beeler and using what looked like flakey out of context history to support these claims I would have the same reasons to be skeptical. She isn't. Maybe this is just a problem caused by unclear communication and as you know a lot about Sam Beeler's version of this history maybe you can provide more details about the names , connections and missing links and clear up these misunderstandings. For instance , perhaps you could explain how Beelers grandmother Sarah Holloway connects to the Sand Hill Indians - Or in other words, how does Sarah Holloway connect to the Richardson or Revey families , and if she doesn't, why is Beeler and Holloway calling themselves Sand Hill Indians?" Shkaakwus replies:
This is all kind of redundant, at this point, since I've answered it above. One more time: You're still hung up on accepting a definition of who is a Sand Hill Indian that isn't the only one out there. Let me see if these selected passages help explain the wider definition. Jim Revey wrote:
"Those Indians who lived in the Pohatcong and Schooley Mountains about four generations ago all came down from the mountains to live in the towns in Morris County and elsewhere. Some of these Delaware Indians intermarried with Indians of Monmouth County years ago." [Note by Shkaakwus: These mountains are located in Morris County and Warren (formerly, Sussex) County, NJ.]
"There were also intermarriages between Burlington County Indians with those who remained in Monmouth County."
"Cherokee and other Indians from the South came into Pennsylvania and then crossed the Delaware River into New Jersey. Some of these Cherokee Indians married with the Indians living in Monmouth County, thus bringing more Indian blood and some new family names."
"In 1887, a list was made of the names of Indian people who lived in Monmouth County and elsewhere. The list includes the Indians that had intermarried with the Indians from Morris and Burlington Counties, and their families."
"...by 1890 the people were beginning to move away from Sand Hill."
"The great majority of Sand Hill Indians have lived away from the Sand Hill for forty-five to fifty years or more." [source: "The Delaware Indians of New Jersey, from Colonial Times to the Present" by James "Lone Bear" Revey, in Kraft, H. C., ed.,
The Lenape Indian: A Symposium, South Orange, NJ (1984), pp.81 & 82 - words in boldface supplied by Shkaakwus, for emphasis]
In an attempt to make a long story short, Sam Beeler's Sand Hill Indians include all those American Indian families from the 1887--and subsequent--Sand Hill Indian rolls. These are the families named on the lists published by Weslager and Beeler, cited above. These families were either ancestral to, or near neighbors of, those living on Sand Hill.
