NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: Tzununa on November 03, 2013, 10:10:54 pm
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Hello,
I am new here and registered specifically to ask this question so that I may understand.
I have noticed that a number of the people I know doing good ceremonial and spiritual work who help a lot of people are listed here as "frauds."
I am wondering the purpose and intent of this forum and website because this is confusing to me. I was hoping someone could explain.
There is one person I know listed here, for example, who I would prefer not to mention. I have personally witnessed many of hundreds of people come through his ceremonies. He is a white person who shares a community chanupa in a weekly ceremony and offers huachuma healing ceremonies on some weekends. He has been doing this for many years and has been trained by native healers, who I have noticed are also listed here. He doesn't do things in a strictly traditional way because he is not working with native people. I know that his mission is to get as much medicine in as many white people as possible to affect change in the world in a collective way. Although he has a decent house and everything he needs materially, he is not a rich man and lives a humble life of constant service. Many other close-to-70 year olds are sitting around watching TV and taking naps, or traveling on their pensions, not sitting up all night with their aching bodies doctoring people, counseling them and cleaning up vomit.
I have watched so many people come through his NAC and get healed of addictions, clean up their lives, repair broken relationships, wake up their families, recreate community and heal the lost sense of tribe that so many of us feel, graduate beyond the self-focused healing and into stewardship with the people and the earth and peel away layers of cultural conditioning having been born into white American culture but with good hearts and good intentions to go on and support the causes of the indigenous people.
It is not perfect and it is certainly not the way things were done in a different time. But it is a way that is serving the place and time that he finds himself in, and I see him as a gateway healer, a first level medicine person, a bridge between cultures and a doorway in for people who would otherwise be kept distant from these healing ways and this level of consciousness.
The importance of those who keep the old ways in the purest manner is obviously crucial. The people like the Kogis and Arahuaco, for example, who are doing work that helps everyone in existence. But also it seems helpful to have these people who are really on the front lines, in the darkest of places - American cities, doing this work. It is hard to dwell in the dark places without getting some of the sludge on you, and sometimes they have do wear the costume of the people they are trying to heal so that they can blend in and get close to it. To me that is better than crying too far from the listener and not effecting change. Not better than other ways but just a different and necessary approach given the challenge.
It is a kind of spiritual MacGyvering, working with what you have in the best way you can. A real tool would be better but sometimes you have to do what you can with a paper clip and a piece of string to get the job done. Sometimes doing something is better than doing nothing.
It does actually feel like a lot of projected hate and negativity in many of the criticisms I read here and makes me wonder if this is the dark side working in some clever disguise to confuse people.
I am not native, but I share the grief that we all feel when we have awakened to what has happened and where we find ourselves at this time in our humanity. I have personally devoted myself to supporting and living this way of life, to learning and doing it completely on my own, without a culture to identify with or a family who supports me. I am ever taking more steps toward that as best I can given what I'm surrounded with. And often with opposition because I am white but I do it quietly and without need for validation.
We all share the same human failings, fears and ego and what is the point anymore to this divisiveness and separation? It feels like such a drain.
I feel sad that these few people who are doing such powerful and important work in the world at this time to help people are so criticized and pulled down for their efforts and imperfections. Many of the native elders I have met and worked with are they same way, but they are not criticized because they are native. This is not a glamorous or lucrative path. I can't imagine who could be doing this for any kind of glory. Healing work is a dirty and often thankless job.
Can someone please explain to me what I am missing here to put my heart at ease?
With love and respect.
LM
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Hello
I guess the first step would be are you willing to listen?
I am Native and live on the reservation.
The first lesson is
* I dont care who you are
but if you in anyway claim to use my way of life (Native-Indian) as a way to make money you are in the wrong.
* If you charge people to come to a ceremony you are wrong.
* If you charge for workshop on ceremonies
* If you claim to be Native but you are not that is a lie as many of those you see on this site.
* No we dont adopted people and make them medicine men or women.
* No we dont teach people go out in the world to teach others that is kind like those christians that do that.
We have different catagory the fraud section are the ones we know that are lying about who they are and committing fraud
to those misguild people look for something that is not their.
The fraud section are people who are really hurting people using our name that is fraud.
The Research Section is for people who are sent to us asking if we know about them, we do the research on if they
are native who they really are, who taught them and if they are on the fraud list.
My question why do you think you have a right to my way of life?
What is wrong with your own life?
I find so many damaged people trying to steal my way of life and my way of life is not for sell nor do you have rights to it.
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I guess I dont consider myself a fraud because I was born, enrolled in my tribe and live among my people,
I know my culture, history, traditions, spirituality and way of life. I dont need to steal from another culture to define who i am
I am born me, i dont do ceremonies and i dont share my way of life with general people.
I get upset when i see people telling stories that are untrue about my people, making up my culture, and
doing damage to those people who have no center or self identifty
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Can someone please explain to me what I am missing here to put my heart at ease?
With love and respect.
LM
Without mentioning who you are talking about...it's hard to comment. First hand accounts are always welcome on this board. If you believe someone is listed here wrongly, you have the right to say so. In fact, it's encouraged. Otherwise, we're just talking hypotheticals which is rather pointless.
Superdog
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It does actually feel like a lot of projected hate and negativity in many of the criticisms I read here and makes me wonder if this is the dark side working in some clever disguise to confuse people.
You are saying that we are projecting hate and negativity? And that "the dark side" is sneakily working through us to confuse people?
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It does actually feel like a lot of projected hate and negativity in many of the criticisms I read here and makes me wonder if this is the dark side working in some clever disguise to confuse people.
Wow, that's insulting! Because you don't like what actual native people say, you insult us?
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Tzununa, speaking as a white person who's made an ass of herself any number of ways in the past, I'd suggest you apologize... and then lurk more before you presume to lecture people on who and who can't use their traditions.
We white people spent a lot of time and energy destroying our own traditions (whatever they were) and substituting Christianity. We then imposed our ways on everyone else. Nice, giving, caring people may want to or choose to help whitefolks "recreate community and heal [our] lost sense of tribe," but it's not their work, it's ours, and they are under no obligation to assist. In the case of Native Americans, they have many, many more important things to worry about than the "lost sense" of white people...and that's our doing, too.
Nor is it their, or anyone else's job, to put your "heart at ease." That's for you to do. When your heart hurts because you've discovered things you believe are merely pretty lies, begging to hear more pretty lies from the people those lies have harmed the most is not going to ease it.
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It does actually feel like a lot of projected hate and negativity in many of the criticisms I read here and makes me wonder if this is the dark side working in some clever disguise to confuse people.
Wow, that's insulting! Because you don't like what actual native people say, you insult us?
Not only is it insulting Debbie, it's RACIST! I'm so sick and tired of these white whiners coming here sniveling and boo hooing about how mean and selfish Indians are. As if we owe this tzununa person anything. @ tzununa, you are the epitome of the racist oppressor. It is not up to us to educate your ignorant white ass. You and people like you are the reason we have to a forum like this.
I hope this tzununa person reads this and really reflects on her words and the hurt she has caused.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
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Tzununa/LM, if you actually felt respect for Native people and communities, you would have taken the time to get a sense of how this board functions. You would have read the pinned threads that already answer your questions and not expected Native people to do 101 work you should have done for yourself. And you would have introduced yourself in the proper section, instead of posting in News & Announcements.
Moving this to "etc"
Stealing from Natives doesn't make you a better person, it makes you a worse person.
Non-Natives exploiting Native ways aren't helping other non-Natives, they are implicating them - you - in cultural genocide. That is not spiritual, or helpful, or peaceful , or good.
You wrote: " recreate community and heal the lost sense of tribe that so many of us feel, graduate beyond the self-focused healing and into stewardship with the people and the earth and peel away layers of cultural conditioning having been born into white American culture but with good hearts and good intentions to go on and support the causes of the indigenous people."
That is delusional. Ceremony-stealing, ceremony-selling, being a pretendian is not supporting Indigenous people. It is the opposite.
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There is one person I know listed here, for example, who I would prefer not to mention. I have personally witnessed many of hundreds of people come through his ceremonies. He is a white person who shares a community chanupa in a weekly ceremony and offers huachuma healing ceremonies on some weekends. He has been doing this for many years and has been trained by native healers, who I have noticed are also listed here. He doesn't do things in a strictly traditional way because he is not working with native people. I know that his mission is to get as much medicine in as many white people as possible to affect change in the world in a collective way. Although he has a decent house and everything he needs materially, he is not a rich man and lives a humble life of constant service. Many other close-to-70 year olds are sitting around watching TV and taking naps, or traveling on their pensions, not sitting up all night with their aching bodies doctoring people, counseling them and cleaning up vomit.
I have watched so many people come through his NAC and get healed of addictions, clean up their lives, repair broken relationships, wake up their families, recreate community and heal the lost sense of tribe that so many of us feel, graduate beyond the self-focused healing and into stewardship with the people and the earth and peel away layers of cultural conditioning having been born into white American culture but with good hearts and good intentions to go on and support the causes of the indigenous people.
It is not perfect and it is certainly not the way things were done in a different time. But it is a way that is serving the place and time that he finds himself in, and I see him as a gateway healer, a first level medicine person, a bridge between cultures and a doorway in for people who would otherwise be kept distant from these healing ways and this level of consciousness.
The importance of those who keep the old ways in the purest manner is obviously crucial. The people like the Kogis and Arahuaco, for example, who are doing work that helps everyone in existence. But also it seems helpful to have these people who are really on the front lines, in the darkest of places - American cities, doing this work. It is hard to dwell in the dark places without getting some of the sludge on you, and sometimes they have do wear the costume of the people they are trying to heal so that they can blend in and get close to it. To me that is better than crying too far from the listener and not effecting change. Not better than other ways but just a different and necessary approach given the challenge.
It is a kind of spiritual MacGyvering, working with what you have in the best way you can. A real tool would be better but sometimes you have to do what you can with a paper clip and a piece of string to get the job done. Sometimes doing something is better than doing nothing...
Can someone please explain to me what I am missing here to put my heart at ease?
With love and respect.
LM
Ms. Muschinski is referring to fraud Erick Gonzalez of the Earth Peoples United cult.
Ms., contrary to what you think he is NOT Native. He is a Guatemalan of entirely European ancestry doing a fraudulent knock off of Mayan ways mangled together with faux Lakota ceremony.
And that you take a faux Native name yourself is a further illustration of the harm imposters like Gonzalez do.
You do realize MacGyver is fiction right? :)
Haphazard and invented on the spot is not what anyone wants or should get when it comes to healing, counseling, or spiritual tradition.
You ask what else could you do? Almost literally anything would be better than play acting Native with an imposter, esp one leading a cult whose harmed huge numbers of people.
Start off with simply being a decent human being for a change. Get involved with human rights or environmental or other just causes. I have a hard time thinking of a worser course of action you could have taken.
Try doing what is right instead what makes you feel good and tells you lies you wish were true.
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There is one person I know listed here, for example, who I would prefer not to mention. I have personally witnessed many of hundreds of people come through his ceremonies. He is a white person who shares a community chanupa in a weekly ceremony and offers huachuma healing ceremonies on some weekends. He has been doing this for many years and has been trained by native healers, who I have noticed are also listed here. He doesn't do things in a strictly traditional way because he is not working with native people. I know that his mission is to get as much medicine in as many white people as possible to affect change in the world in a collective way. Although he has a decent house and everything he needs materially, he is not a rich man and lives a humble life of constant service. Many other close-to-70 year olds are sitting around watching TV and taking naps, or traveling on their pensions, not sitting up all night with their aching bodies doctoring people, counseling them and cleaning up vomit.
[...]
Ms. Muschinski is referring to fraud Erick Gonzalez of the Earth Peoples United cult.
Ms., contrary to what you think he is NOT Native. He is a Guatemalan of entirely European ancestry doing a fraudulent knock off of Mayan ways mangled together with faux Lakota ceremony.
Emphasis mine
Actually, Ms M is confirming our suspicion and, at the same time, ruining her guru's scheme: I've emphasised the sentence above in which she clearly says Gonzalez is a white person!
So that says everything about his claims to be Maya and to have been taught Maya spirituality be "his elders". In other words: this is no more than a legend Gonzalez is using to promote his business. Of course 'legend' is just another word for 'bunch of lies'.
And if Gonzalez is "sitting up all night ... doctoring people, counseling them and cleaning up vomit", then perhaps he should hand out less Ayahuasca to his customers, and of course also other less of drugs like the above mentioned wachuma/ huachuma.
I'm going to copy this post to our thread on Gonzalez to make the info on him being a white person available there, too.
The thread is to be found here:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3420.0
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He doesn't do things in a strictly traditional way because he is not working with native people.
Erick Gonzalez does work with (and harm) native people, for instance people of the Haida Nation. http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3420.0 (http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3420.0)
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It does actually feel like a lot of projected hate and negativity in many of the criticisms I read here and makes me wonder if this is the dark side working in some clever disguise to confuse people.
Wow, that's insulting! Because you don't like what actual native people say, you insult us?
Not only is it insulting Debbie, it's RACIST! I'm so sick and tired of these white whiners coming here sniveling and boo hooing about how mean and selfish Indians are. As if we owe this tzununa person anything. @ tzununa, you are the epitome of the racist oppressor. It is not up to us to educate your ignorant white ass. You and people like you are the reason we have to a forum like this.
I hope this tzununa person reads this and really reflects on her words and the hurt she has caused.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
i use the term "SPIRITUAL COLONIZATION"
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Hello,
I am new here and registered specifically to ask this question so that I may understand.
I have noticed that a number of the people I know doing good ceremonial and spiritual work who help a lot of people are listed here as "frauds."
What spiritual works? Talking is spiritual work.
Your last question was asking to ease your spirit (peace of mind).
Anyone can enable another. Dont worry about people telling you that 'they' have a proprietary to knowledge. But on the flip side, if someone is telling you that they are offering a special kind of 'spiritual healing' and you are led to believe it is magic by ANY 'god(s)', just smile and keep in mind that you can create a lie or follow one, just as easily.
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Hello
I guess the first step would be are you willing to listen?
I am Native and live on the reservation.
The first lesson is
* I dont care who you are
but if you in anyway claim to use my way of life (Native-Indian) as a way to make money you are in the wrong.
* If you charge people to come to a ceremony you are wrong.
* If you charge for workshop on ceremonies
* If you claim to be Native but you are not that is a lie as many of those you see on this site.
* No we dont adopted people and make them medicine men or women.
* No we dont teach people go out in the world to teach others that is kind like those christians that do that.
We have different catagory the fraud section are the ones we know that are lying about who they are and committing fraud
to those misguild people look for something that is not their.
The fraud section are people who are really hurting people using our name that is fraud.
The Research Section is for people who are sent to us asking if we know about them, we do the research on if they
are native who they really are, who taught them and if they are on the fraud list.
My question why do you think you have a right to my way of life?
What is wrong with your own life?
I find so many damaged people trying to steal my way of life and my way of life is not for sell nor do you have rights to it.
Wow!
How deep is your understanding on what 'life' is?
I agree, knowledge must not be for sale. And I agree that taking money for a religious 'belief' or 'ritual' is a joke in itself.
But you dont have a 'my way of life' that is other than 'our' way without 'racist' ideology.
I am a mutt as far as geneology. Most are but the core identifiers in race can be easily identified as red, yellow, black, white. Here on this side of the lake, the red are who know how to live with mother but in other places, the black, then in another the yellow, then in another, the white. Race is not a hierarchy but an equal footing on this taco stand, dood.
The indigenous way is 'the way' for 'the land between 2 seas'. Heck I cant understand why the Navajo/Hopi havent hit up Ted Turner for at least 10,000 head of bison to return to the land. Instead, they sell beef "the american way", instead!!!!!!!
How many know how to make dice from bison? How many of you can live with mother, without a grocery store?
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Wow!
How deep is your understanding on what 'life' is?
First of all a hint: please don't come stumbling in with insolent remarks towards respected members of this community. Earthw also is a respected member in the community she lives in every day. Plus don't come in here placing the label 'racist' on to respected persons. With probably very few exceptions, all of us know what racism is and does - and since most of the board members happen to be ndn, they will have seen racism from the receiving end.
But perhaps we can give you a lesson on why the accusation of 'reverse racism' is nothing but pure racism?
We come from a variety of cultures here, and we respect each other's cultures and beliefs.
As a further hint: most of us don't like kicking behinds all that much, but if the worst comes to the worst, you'd be amazed how good we are at it if need be.
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But you dont have a 'my way of life' that is other than 'our' way without 'racist' ideology.
Huh? Indigenous people own their cultures. The idea that anyone, of any cultural background, can take the cultural property of others is not a traditional perspective. It's a modern, consumerist one.
Earth knows her culture, and the boundaries that have had to be set to keep offensive people from trivializing and exploiting their ways. With respect, I humbly ask you to show some respect here.
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Thank u for standing up for me ;D but as a Native woman who is not a mutt
and live on my land among my people i stand up for MY WAYS.
I have the right to say NO to outsiders.
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Bis sound like one of those ???
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Thank u for standing up for me ;D but as a Native woman who is not a mutt
and live on my land among my people i stand up for MY WAYS.
I have the right to say NO to outsiders.
one of those?????
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My way is Lakota Dakota
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But you dont have a 'my way of life' that is other than 'our' way without 'racist' ideology.
Huh? Indigenous people own their cultures. The idea that anyone, of any cultural background, can take the cultural property of others is not a traditional perspective. It's a modern, consumerist one.
Earth knows her culture, and the boundaries that have had to be set to keep offensive people from trivializing and exploiting their ways. With respect, I humbly ask you to show some respect here.
cross purpose there.
We are brothers from earth and sharing toys is just good manners.
I like the internet. Can you show me which tribe created this culture?
ps... the keepers best take note of the aspect of empathy. From what i understand there are some cool bro's that are to teach the idiots like me how to survive with mom. I've got the knowledge to understand the "bic lighter" but your culture is not yours, as the internet and knowledge of the fire is not mine!
'we' teach our children and our brothers (and sisters). A way to know that the times are turning is that the children now teaching the elders.
Remember, each day we learn. If the knowledge enables, do the right.
So are you native
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Nope, he's a white guy. He has also been banned.
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First of all a hint: please don't come stumbling in with insolent remarks towards respected members of this community. Earthw also is a respected member in the community she lives in every day. Plus don't come in here placing the label 'racist' on to respected persons.
[/quote]
Aren't we all respected persons? Shouldn't we all be spoken to with care and respect?
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if you in anyway claim to use my way of life (Native-Indian) as a way to make money you are in the wrong.
* If you charge people to come to a ceremony you are wrong.
* If you charge for workshop on ceremonies
* If you claim to be Native but you are not that is a lie as many of those you see on this site.
What is wrong with your own life?
I AGREE! It would be beautiful if we lived in a world without using money as our energy exchange for things. And I think spiritual practice and relationship is a personal thing and not a profession.
What is wrong with white American life? Are you really asking this question? Almost everything is wrong with it. This is why people with the great misfortune of being born into it so often seek wiser cultures to learn from. Duh. If I was born into "your" way of life, I would want to share it with people who are sincerely looking to learn and change.
As for taking it out into the world, that seems like a natural thing to do to try and change a sick dominant culture and help people to think a different way from mainstream American culture. Not everyone is driven by greed and power.
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I guess I dont consider myself a fraud because I was born, enrolled in my tribe and live among my people,
I know my culture, history, traditions, spirituality and way of life. I dont need to steal from another culture to define who i am
I am born me, i dont do ceremonies and i dont share my way of life with general people.
I get upset when i see people telling stories that are untrue about my people, making up my culture, and
doing damage to those people who have no center or self identifty
Thank you for your peaceful response. I feel that way, too about cultural appropriation. It is sad how much damage has been done, but there are lots of good hearted people, too. Not everyone is looking to exploit.
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It does actually feel like a lot of projected hate and negativity in many of the criticisms I read here and makes me wonder if this is the dark side working in some clever disguise to confuse people.
Wow, that's insulting! Because you don't like what actual native people say, you insult us?
That is not what I said at all. I said what it FEELS like to me to read so many untrue things about people I know personally here who are doing good things for people. And that is not an insult, just the way I am experiencing what I'm reading. If you want to feel insulted by my feelings that is your perception, but not my intention.
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Tzununa, speaking as a white person who's made an ass of herself any number of ways in the past, I'd suggest you apologize... and then lurk more before you presume to lecture people on who and who can't use their traditions.
We white people spent a lot of time and energy destroying our own traditions (whatever they were) and substituting Christianity. We then imposed our ways on everyone else. Nice, giving, caring people may want to or choose to help whitefolks "recreate community and heal [our] lost sense of tribe," but it's not their work, it's ours, and they are under no obligation to assist. In the case of Native Americans, they have many, many more important things to worry about than the "lost sense" of white people...and that's our doing, too.
Nor is it their, or anyone else's job, to put your "heart at ease." That's for you to do. When your heart hurts because you've discovered things you believe are merely pretty lies, begging to hear more pretty lies from the people those lies have harmed the most is not going to ease it.
My question was not intended to be a lecture, but a sincere inquiry for the sake of peace and understanding. I was hoping that someone could put my heart at ease to let me know that this forum is actually seeking peace and understanding more than anything else, but I see that it is just like all of life, a mix of the good and the bad. There seem to be people doing that and people who just like to argue. But it takes all kinds to make the world go round.
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It does actually feel like a lot of projected hate and negativity in many of the criticisms I read here and makes me wonder if this is the dark side working in some clever disguise to confuse people.
Wow, that's insulting! Because you don't like what actual native people say, you insult us?
Not only is it insulting Debbie, it's RACIST! I'm so sick and tired of these white whiners coming here sniveling and boo hooing about how mean and selfish Indians are. As if we owe this tzununa person anything. @ tzununa, you are the epitome of the racist oppressor. It is not up to us to educate your ignorant white ass. You and people like you are the reason we have to a forum like this.
I hope this tzununa person reads this and really reflects on her words and the hurt she has caused.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
Wow!!! You just called me a racist oppressor. ????????????????????
Who is causing hurt here? There are ACTUAL racist oppressors in the world. There are people who discriminate and kill others for their race.
I am so sorry for whatever pain you have felt in your life because of racism. You don't know me and I don't know you from a few typed words on the internet so be very careful with such dangerous accusations before you take the time to have a peaceful discussion with someone.
I have devoted my life to healing racial conflict and know first hand what it is to live with racism on a daily basis. I married my husband, a North African man just before 9/11 and saw what racism did to him to me and to our family, every day of our lives. DON'T TELL ME WHO I AM from a fucking internet post.
Your pain requires responsibility. Just because I have been raped, I don't get to walk up to every man on the street and rip him a new one. You don't get to generalize either. Did you read the plea I was making for peace? Take off your racism-colored glasses, sister, and SEE ME and how I actually am trying to Love you here. In whatever way I am mistaken or ignorant of what it is like for other people, my inquiry was made in love and you just shit all over it.
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Tzununa/LM, if you actually felt respect for Native people and communities, you would have taken the time to get a sense of how this board functions. You would have read the pinned threads that already answer your questions and not expected Native people to do 101 work you should have done for yourself. And you would have introduced yourself in the proper section, instead of posting in News & Announcements.
Moving this to "etc"
Stealing from Natives doesn't make you a better person, it makes you a worse person.
Non-Natives exploiting Native ways aren't helping other non-Natives, they are implicating them - you - in cultural genocide. That is not spiritual, or helpful, or peaceful , or good.
You wrote: " recreate community and heal the lost sense of tribe that so many of us feel, graduate beyond the self-focused healing and into stewardship with the people and the earth and peel away layers of cultural conditioning having been born into white American culture but with good hearts and good intentions to go on and support the causes of the indigenous people."
That is delusional. Ceremony-stealing, ceremony-selling, being a pretendian is not supporting Indigenous people. It is the opposite.
Thank you Kathryn. You are right, I didn't read this entire forum, and I suspect that would take a really long time. I was writing from the impression I got from the few things I did read, which inspired concern and confusion. Is it really a requirement to read everything before my question is valid?
What do you think would be a better way for people of all races to support the indigenous people while trying to change the general way they interact with the earth and each other? If young people who are not native but are so condemned for any efforts they make to live a ceremonial life want to have a ceremony, will they still be criticized for doing it wrong? For "stealing" someone else's culture? The young people I see of all races who go to ceremonies don't want to be Indians, but want to live in a beautiful way and honor life and connect with spirit via ceremony. Since they have no culture to instruct them, and the cultures who have something to teach seem so closed, what do you think the 19 year old Russian kid living in the city with no relatives to teach him, and is asking for this should do? Move to Russia and try to discover an ancestry that has been dead for thousands of years?
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Ms. Muschinski is referring to fraud Erick Gonzalez of the Earth Peoples United cult.
Ms., contrary to what you think he is NOT Native. He is a Guatemalan of entirely European ancestry doing a fraudulent knock off of Mayan ways mangled together with faux Lakota ceremony.
And that you take a faux Native name yourself is a further illustration of the harm imposters like Gonzalez do.
You do realize MacGyver is fiction right? :)
Haphazard and invented on the spot is not what anyone wants or should get when it comes to healing, counseling, or spiritual tradition.
You ask what else could you do? Almost literally anything would be better than play acting Native with an imposter, esp one leading a cult whose harmed huge numbers of people.
Start off with simply being a decent human being for a change. Get involved with human rights or environmental or other just causes. I have a hard time thinking of a worser course of action you could have taken.
Try doing what is right instead what makes you feel good and tells you lies you wish were true.
Wow, this is so grossly inaccurate. First of all, I have not taken a native name, I have the name my mama gave me. I am also curious about the satisfaction you seem to get from posting my name all over in different areas, especially, quite inaccurately linked with some other post about whether or not Erick Gonzalez is a white person. (???)
As for Erick Gonzalez, while I know him, I was actually not referring to him but to someone else entirely. Erick does not live in a city, have an NAC or offer medicine ceremonies like the person I was talking about. And cult? Really?
I'm not sure where you got your information or how you connected me to him, but this is terribly inaccurate. If you are an administrator, I would think this is an extremely important point. What you have done here is create petty gossip, and distorted my words without my permission.
I didn't mention his name and you were mistaken, so what you have done is slander to both of us.
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Aren't we all respected persons?
It's like in real life: some are, some are not.
Shouldn't we all be spoken to with care and respect?
Respect does not grow on trees, it's earned. Some do, some don't.
I was hoping that someone could put my heart at ease to let me know that this forum is actually seeking peace and understanding more than anything else, but I see that it is just like all of life, a mix of the good and the bad.
It's not our duty to put your heart or whatever at ease. The understanding we seek to create is that people like you understand what and who is a fraud, and to how to avoid frauds. Again: some do, some don't. Some begin to think, some refuse. Some are able to accept the things they can learn here, some prefer to continue the exploitation of ndn cultures and religions cause to them it "feels good". Some of the persons registering for an account here even insist on believing a white, bald-headed drug peddler too lazy to get a decent job to earn his living was a ndn shame-on. Some come in to learn, some insist on remaining wasicu.
Edit:
You happen to be in an environment with a different set of behaviour than your usual one, so please stop going on and on and on, posting umpteen times. Ten posts in a row will not make you look important, it will make you look a wasicu idiot who cannot pick up things work differently here and act out their white priviledge.
And please don't give us this "you don't know me" BS - *you* don't know *us* either, and you come across as quite happy to jump to assumptions about us. Your attitude isn't news to us, we've seen all this entitlement and demanding attitude and white priviledge before, far more often than we'd care for. You got a head, start using it to do some reading and then do some thinking for a change - instead of only making use of your head when you get a new hairdo.
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There is one person I know listed here, for example, who I would prefer not to mention. I have personally witnessed many of hundreds of people come through his ceremonies. He is a white person who shares a community chanupa in a weekly ceremony and offers huachuma healing ceremonies on some weekends. He has been doing this for many years and has been trained by native healers, who I have noticed are also listed here. He doesn't do things in a strictly traditional way because he is not working with native people. I know that his mission is to get as much medicine in as many white people as possible to affect change in the world in a collective way. Although he has a decent house and everything he needs materially, he is not a rich man and lives a humble life of constant service. Many other close-to-70 year olds are sitting around watching TV and taking naps, or traveling on their pensions, not sitting up all night with their aching bodies doctoring people, counseling them and cleaning up vomit.
[...]
Ms. Muschinski is referring to fraud Erick Gonzalez of the Earth Peoples United cult.
Ms., contrary to what you think he is NOT Native. He is a Guatemalan of entirely European ancestry doing a fraudulent knock off of Mayan ways mangled together with faux Lakota ceremony.
Emphasis mine
Actually, Ms M is confirming our suspicion and, at the same time, ruining her guru's scheme: I've emphasised the sentence above in which she clearly says Gonzalez is a white person!
So that says everything about his claims to be Maya and to have been taught Maya spirituality be "his elders". In other words: this is no more than a legend Gonzalez is using to promote his business. Of course 'legend' is just another word for 'bunch of lies'.
And if Gonzalez is "sitting up all night ... doctoring people, counseling them and cleaning up vomit", then perhaps he should hand out less Ayahuasca to his customers, and of course also other less of drugs like the above mentioned wachuma/ huachuma.
I'm going to copy this post to our thread on Gonzalez to make the info on him being a white person available there, too.
The thread is to be found here:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3420.0
I was NOT referring to Erick Gonzalez. Please remove that post.
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It does actually feel like a lot of projected hate and negativity in many of the criticisms I read here and makes me wonder if this is the dark side working in some clever disguise to confuse people.
Wow, that's insulting! Because you don't like what actual native people say, you insult us?
Not only is it insulting Debbie, it's RACIST! I'm so sick and tired of these white whiners coming here sniveling and boo hooing about how mean and selfish Indians are. As if we owe this tzununa person anything. @ tzununa, you are the epitome of the racist oppressor. It is not up to us to educate your ignorant white ass. You and people like you are the reason we have to a forum like this.
I hope this tzununa person reads this and really reflects on her words and the hurt she has caused.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
Wow!!! You just called me a racist oppressor. ????????????????????
Who is causing hurt here? There are ACTUAL racist oppressors in the world. There are people who discriminate and kill others for their race.
I am so sorry for whatever pain you have felt in your life because of racism. You don't know me and I don't know you from a few typed words on the internet so be very careful with such dangerous accusations before you take the time to have a peaceful discussion with someone.
I have devoted my life to healing racial conflict and know first hand what it is to live with racism on a daily basis. I married my husband, a North African man just before 9/11 and saw what racism did to him to me and to our family, every day of our lives. DON'T TELL ME WHO I AM from a fucking internet post.
Your pain requires responsibility. Just because I have been raped, I don't get to walk up to every man on the street and rip him a new one. You don't get to generalize either. Did you read the plea I was making for peace? Take off your racism-colored glasses, sister, and SEE ME and how I actually am trying to Love you here. In whatever way I am mistaken or ignorant of what it is like for other people, my inquiry was made in love and you just shit all over it.
1. Who is causing hurt here? There are ACTUAL racist oppressors in the world. There are people who discriminate and kill others for their race.
Heavy sigh.....YOU! actually several people on here have said so. And yes I'm calling YOU an actual racist oppressor, also stop with straw man argument.
2. I am so sorry for whatever pain you have felt in your life because of racism. You don't know me and I don't know you from a few typed words on the internet so be very careful with such dangerous accusations before you take the time to have a peaceful discussion with someone.
I don't believe you're sorry, not one little bit. As for knowing YOU....actually I do, I know your ilk very well. We get your kind here everyday, day in and day out. I don't have to meet you face to face to know that you're a racist and a entitled whiner. "Dangerous accusations" please stop with the hyperbole you sound ridiculous.
3. I have devoted my life to healing racial conflict and know first hand what it is to live with racism on a daily basis. I married my husband, a North African man just before 9/11 and saw what racism did to him to me and to our family, every day of our lives. DON'T TELL ME WHO I AM from a fucking internet post.
This is a pathetic response. It's the typical racist saying "I have black friends"
4. Your pain requires responsibility. Just because I have been raped, I don't get to walk up to every man on the street and rip him a new one. You don't get to generalize either. Did you read the plea I was making for peace? Take off your racism-colored glasses, sister, and SEE ME and how I actually am trying to Love you here. In whatever way I am mistaken or ignorant of what it is like for other people, my inquiry was made in love and you just shit all over it.
How is your rape relevant to this discussion?....I'm not going to play your one-upmanship game. Again, stop with the sniveling and boo hooing and put your big girl pants on and really take a good look at your self. One more time with feeling...It's not up us to educate YOUR ignorant white ass.
Lim lemtsh,
Diana
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wow I am sorry but everyday i run into those kind of people
Who think we should teach them how to live just look around you,
you can find that peace with in you. You don't have to steal another persons
culture to find peace in your life, nor do we have to take the time to teach u.
My people are warrior not this peace hippy type people we stand for what is right
and what is wrong and i have had to deal with people like you all the time who think
you have some right to my way of life but are you on my reservation helping NO!
I am sorry your life is messed up but that does not mean you need to follow frauds to fit yourself
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Tzununa, what I can't understand about all this is why you do not mention the people you are here trying to defend (you admit you know Erick Gonzalez and other people who are listed as frauds here), and then you get upset since you say that he is not the person you were referring to in your original post.
You say you are looking for understanding (and I guess, explanations) from the members of this forum, yet you wait for around two weeks in order to reply to the posts here, and then you show that you are not willing to learn or understand anything. There is no point to this -- none at all.
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My question was not intended to be a lecture, but a sincere inquiry for the sake of peace and understanding. I was hoping that someone could put my heart at ease to let me know that this forum is actually seeking peace and understanding more than anything else
How could anyone who read word one of this forum get the idea it's about "seeking peace and understanding more than anything else"? It isn't. The forum exists to uncover frauds who exploit Native American ways for profit. That's all.
...but I see that it is just like all of life, a mix of the good and the bad.
Of course it is. Again, why would you have expected anything different? Did you have an idea that Native Americans are super-spiritual, special, one hundred per cent good people? That's a stereotype, and it's racist, even though it might sound pleasant to you.
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Ms. Muschinski sent several emails saying we need her permission to mention her name or Gonzalez's and that what we are saying is libelous, then huffily saying she won't return here. I suspect her last set of emails were intended to be hit and run, spout off and leave and she hasn't seen the responses.
But in answer to one of her questions, Muschinski's name shows up several times on EPU sites promoting Gonzalez, as a local organizer or sponsor.
Another person on this thread who called himself Bishadi or Biesiada sent an email with some ramblings, claiming to be appointed by Hopi elders and on a mission, claims he's handed out information to tribes all across the lower 48 states. (Even states that don't have tribes, like PA?)
I urged him to seek professional help. I only mention his claims in case we see them showing up elsewhere later.
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thank you for the great job you do EI
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I have noticed that a number of the people I know doing good ceremonial and spiritual work who help a lot of people are listed here as "frauds."
I have watched so many people come through his NAC and get healed of addictions, clean up their lives, repair broken relationships, wake up their families, recreate community and heal the lost sense of tribe that so many of us feel, graduate beyond the self-focused healing and into stewardship with the people and the earth and peel away layers of cultural conditioning having been born into white American culture but with good hearts and good intentions to go on and support the causes of the indigenous people.
I feel sad that these few people who are doing such powerful and important work in the world at this time to help people are so criticized and pulled down for their efforts and imperfections. Many of the native elders I have met and worked with are they same way, but they are not criticized because they are native. This is not a glamorous or lucrative path. I can't imagine who could be doing this for any kind of glory. Healing work is a dirty and often thankless job.
Warum glauben einige Menschen, dass es möglich ist, einen Menschen von Außen zu heilen?
Heilung beginnt in einem selbst und das bedeuted, dass du dich selber konfrontieren musst, dein Inneres, da sind gute Lebenserfahrungen und da ist auch schlechte in deinem Leben. Bei einer Konfrontation musst du dadurch und nachvollziehen, warum das passierte. Das ist harte Arbeit und sie fühlt sich nicht immer gut an, manchmal tut sie verdammt weh.
Heilen Frauds mit ihren Zeremonien wirklich, oder helfen sie nicht eher, dass die Menschen dissoziieren, sich von ihrem Inneren und von der Realität abspalten? Es gibt Menschen, die haben eine Leere in sich, die keine Substanz hat, sie sind unerreichbar. Du versuchst, hoffst, dass sie dich wirklich verstehen, was du ihnen mitteilen möchtest, aber sie verstehen dich nicht.
Why do some people believe, to heal a person is possible from the outside?
Healing begins in your self and it means you need to confrontate yourself, your inner, there are good life-events and also there are some bad exist(ed) in your life. In a confrontation you need to walk through it and comprehend why it happened. This is hard work and sometimes it does not feel good to you, sometimes it hurts very much.
Do these frauds in their ceremonies really heal or do they help the people dissociate, to split their inner from reality? There are people who got an inner emptiness without substance, you cannot reach them. You try, hope they will understand what you want to say by your words, but they cannot comprehend what you mean.