NAFPS Forum
General => Research Needed => Topic started by: milehighsalute on September 12, 2014, 08:06:47 pm
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yep.....ill go ahead and say it
they are all frauds....and they are damaging to indians
they infilterate politics and promote mexican nationalism beyond mexican borders
their stupid ideas and misinformation get a platform in public schools and they are even allowed to start their own schools of indoctrination
on top of that they are not even culturally ndn.......mostly thinblood american chicanos with something to prove
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Many confuse this org as an actual movement.
Founder of the organization is Olin Tezcatlipoca. Like my mom tells me if I can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all so that is all I'm going to say.
Anyway, though they are against fraud, they go extreme on all matters.
I am confused on what you mean by this:
even allowed to start their own schools of indoctrination
I never heard of this org ever having a school of any kind.
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ill try to find the video.....they have a school in LA
for being so adamantly against frauds olin sure loves misappropriating things like medicine wheels and sweats and north american spirituality with his claims that we are all one and all came from mexica.
either way they ARE a hobbiest organization, and convince outsiders that they have us NDN's from this continent on board when they promote their mexican nationalism
they show up at powwows and participate in grand entry following our flag and eagle staff for such things like veterans day, and memorial day.........playing all nice and taking pics and trying to legitimize themselves as being one with us.....then go home writing anti-american blogs calling our vets sellouts and cannon fodder
they may not sell ceremony.....but they misappropriate it.....and they sure sell misinformation to the masses and brainwash kids
so just because they look like us i dont think they should get a pass for being phonies
i wrote about it here once http://forums.powwows.com/f40/destroying-myth-aztlan-aztec-hobbyists-68613/#post1599744
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I think you're confusing different organizations and bunching them up as one.
ill try to find the video.....they have a school in LA
Only school that I can think of that is in LA is Academia Semillas del Pueblo which is founded by Marcos Aguilar which has no connection to the organization Mexica Movement.
for being so adamantly against frauds olin sure loves misappropriating things like medicine wheels and sweats and north american spirituality with his claims that we are all one and all came from mexica.
either way they ARE a hobbiest organization, and convince outsiders that they have us NDN's from this continent on board when they promote their mexican nationalism
As much as I do not like Olin and the ways he runs things, only thing I ever remember him saying is everyone is Mexica. Everything else doesn't sound like him. At least not after the 2000's.
they show up at powwows and participate in grand entry following our flag and eagle staff for such things like veterans day, and memorial day.........playing all nice and taking pics and trying to legitimize themselves as being one with us.....then go home writing anti-american blogs calling our vets sellouts and cannon fodder
they may not sell ceremony.....but they misappropriate it.....and they sure sell misinformation to the masses and brainwash kids
Like here I think you're confusing other people and bunching them together.
I think you need to show pics or links to blog entries so I could help you separate who is who.
*Update*
Read your posts over there, I agree Nican Tlaca is dumb (In Nahuatl just mean "People here". Tlaca means man in modern variants of the Nahuatl dialects.).
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I have friend who are a part of reclaiming their native blood and i dont think that
lumping them all into a group if one is misrepresenting the people
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you may be right.....i may be lumping all of them into one category.....either way they all are hobbyists and the all give a nod and their sympathy to the mexica movment....which i maintain is a HATE GROUP
the more i look into it only a few promote mexican nationalism while others promote mestizo advancement and some just like to dance......but maybe its different for you guys......ever sit down and talk to them? horrible ideas and wild claims out of that crowd........its maybe because i am and injun with a spanish surname that they think im one of them.....they always try recruiting me to their little heritage club
i also believe they have no business at powwows and YES THEY DO MISAPPROPRIATE NDN' s for their own little fantasy
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you may be right.....i may be lumping all of them into one category.....either way they all are hobbyists and the all give a nod and their sympathy to the mexica movment....which i maintain is a HATE GROUP
the more i look into it only a few promote mexican nationalism while others promote mestizo advancement and some just like to dance......but maybe its different for you guys......ever sit down and talk to them? horrible ideas and wild claims out of that crowd........its maybe because i am and injun with a spanish surname that they think im one of them.....they always try recruiting me to their little heritage club
i also believe they have no business at powwows and YES THEY DO MISAPPROPRIATE NDN' s for their own little fantasy
I been around them most of my life. I just smile and nodded and walk away. If they say "hey, don't you want to know about your heritage/culture", just say, I appreciate what you're telling me, but I know of my *tribe here* heritage or something like that. Just don't do it demeaning.
The ones who love to dance are danzantes (which the Mexica Movement org does not like). I'll admit, they somewhat do run like a cult. Many go by following an "elder" (I posted a lot of questionable "elders" already here in the group in the research is needed area. If there are questionable people I post them here as well.). Some of the danzantes come from broken homes, formal drug addicts and gangsters who want better lives and go with that so doing something negative at them isn't going to fix it their issue. Many who have been living in the US for many generations without a connection to Mexico.
With the Mexica Movement organization, they're a bit cruel so I just say avoid them. Many who have been living in the US for many generations without a connection to Mexico.
What I been doing for some time is if you can't beat them, join them type of attitude to try to correct issues. Right now I have a group which many of the people you complain about are in the group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/MexicaHistory
A few friends of my friends help me put correct information: codices in the file section, lectures from experts, have a discussion on misinformation with a few experts in the field, etc...
I kept it with the name Mexica History since people who are just starting only know about Mexica (around Mexica New Years, about 200 members join.)
You can check it out and probably think I'm crazy for doing what I'm doing, but I'm doing my best with my abilities to correct an issue.
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that is great; one of the problems is incorrect history,
We need to reconnect back to our Native Belief and culture
but it has to be the real beliefs and culture, my friends is LA
are doing what you are doing trying to correct history with these groups
I have to say I am not worried about the pow-wow culture because that is
not a traditional culture event, since it is not apart of traditional culture it is mostly
a social gathering for our people to share dance, songs, and make relatives (snagging),
when pow-wow was created after WWI it was to honor our veterans and it became a
a whole culture on its own with its own rules some of the rules go back to Christian upbring.
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i believe powwows/wacipis are traditional
traditions have to start somewhere......but yes it it a NEWER tradition......but it is not going away anytime soon and that is where many NDNz including myself find solace......i seen more people saved through powwow than sundance (when following the "old rules")
i know the roots of powwow.... whether its new tradition or old tradition....i like to think of it as OURS and would like to keep it that way
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http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2185.0 this koyoteh guy from a few years ago breaks it down A LITTLE.....its still nonsense to me....he includes my homelands in his aztlan fantasy
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http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2185.0 this koyoteh guy from a few years ago breaks it down A LITTLE.....its still nonsense to me....he includes my homelands in his aztlan fantasy
you could say that aztlan is a fantasy, from the same viewpoint that white anthropologists call all natives origin and emigration stories fantasies and myth.
is that the standpoint you are taking?
after all these years, ya bringing back this thread. THat is good.
ya say here i break it down a little. good.
been so many years though.
but let me address what you said , that i include you tribe in the fantasy.
which tribe?
and how do you know your tribe is not a part of the 'myth'?
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i believe powwows/wacipis are traditional
traditions have to start somewhere......but yes it it a NEWER tradition......but it is not going away anytime soon and that is where many NDNz including myself find solace......i seen more people saved through powwow than sundance (when following the "old rules")
i know the roots of powwow.... whether its new tradition or old tradition....i like to think of it as OURS and would like to keep it that way
exaactly.
so are your people or the pow wow people the only people allowed to do that and want others to accept that?
i talked to many cali natives and they just didn't agree. that was years ago now when pow wows were 'invading' cali territory.
but again, pow wows have an idea of being promoted as 'intertribal'. I see it that way today, but years ago they only said this but discriminated against cali natives, and apaches and others. was like 20 years ago.
it took some time and hard work to help people learn about each other and get along.
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that is great; one of the problems is incorrect history,
We need to reconnect back to our Native Belief and culture
but it has to be the real beliefs and culture, my friends is LA
are doing what you are doing trying to correct history with these groups
I have to say I am not worried about the pow-wow culture because that is
not a traditional culture event, since it is not apart of traditional culture it is mostly
a social gathering for our people to share dance, songs, and make relatives (snagging),
when pow-wow was created after WWI it was to honor our veterans and it became a
a whole culture on its own with its own rules some of the rules go back to Christian upbring.
i heard many different origin stories about how pow wows developed. never heard the one about ww2 and honoring veterans. very interesting. I think maybe that was added later.
the versions heard were two versions.
one was how they started off as gathering between specific tribes.
the second i heard was Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show . In which white man Bill formed , and hired natives, and later native created dances for show. ANd the people liked it so they kept doing it.
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you may be right.....i may be lumping all of them into one category.....either way they all are hobbyists and the all give a nod and their sympathy to the mexica movment....which i maintain is a HATE GROUP
the more i look into it only a few promote mexican nationalism while others promote mestizo advancement and some just like to dance......but maybe its different for you guys......ever sit down and talk to them? horrible ideas and wild claims out of that crowd........its maybe because i am and injun with a spanish surname that they think im one of them.....they always try recruiting me to their little heritage club
i also believe they have no business at powwows and YES THEY DO MISAPPROPRIATE NDN' s for their own little fantasy
they are not all hobbyists.
i know you guys like using that term. but lumping everyone together is not right. Unless you bother to learn the history of how it all developed and begin to see all the groups that are out there, you don't have the right YET to make a statement at all.
Maybe after you learn about it all you will still have the same belief, but at least learn first.
IF aztecs have no business at pow wows , then who does? And with that, the question becomes DO pow wows have the right to be spread all over the lands and outside of their traditionals ceremonies? Are the pow wow committees asking the tribes of the lands they dance in for their approval? for their permission?
the answer is not. At least not at all.
same for aztec dancers. at least 20 years ago, the dance heads did ask permission to dance in their areas. NOw i am speaking for california only, and 20 years ago.
in exchange we help them with their endeavors.
now today, is that still going on? has it gotten out of hand?
i don't know.
but i am able to ask these questions because I know that at one point in time dancers had the blessing of cali tribes to dance here.
but when we attack other nations and their dancers, i put it back to you, DO your dancers have permission to dance in other natives lands?
why not?
why won't they ask?
then agian sometimes it does happen which is why now there are more tribes involved in the pow wows because the pow wows have walked into the homes of others. ITs only fair.
especially when the slogan is "INTERTRIBAL!"
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ill try to find the video.....they have a school in LA
for being so adamantly against frauds olin sure loves misappropriating things like medicine wheels and sweats and north american spirituality with his claims that we are all one and all came from mexica.
either way they ARE a hobbiest organization, and convince outsiders that they have us NDN's from this continent on board when they promote their mexican nationalism
they show up at powwows and participate in grand entry following our flag and eagle staff for such things like veterans day, and memorial day.........playing all nice and taking pics and trying to legitimize themselves as being one with us.....then go home writing anti-american blogs calling our vets sellouts and cannon fodder
they may not sell ceremony.....but they misappropriate it.....and they sure sell misinformation to the masses and brainwash kids
so just because they look like us i dont think they should get a pass for being phonies
i wrote about it here once http://forums.powwows.com/f40/destroying-myth-aztlan-aztec-hobbyists-68613/#post1599744
i know this school. intimately.
no ties to olin or mexica movement or any mexica nazi group.
its origins were from an idea and discussion that took place about 20 years ago of which i was present. It was a discussion that included mainly a specific dance group that always stood up for native rights, the peoples rights, and had the blessing of cali tribes to do work here.
in further discussions that took place , the chumash were included in these discussions.
from these discussions, we ended up with a school, midwives, traditionals medicines, security groups, marketplaces, teachers, aand gardens.
all the while also being told we didn't have the right to do thiese things by mexica movement and other mexica-nazi groups.
The school had an idea that promoted self identity. teaches nahuatl. also taught chinese. english. spanish. Kind of a language based school. The idea was identity and self esteem and bring ourselves into successful people. SELF SUFFICIENCY.
yes. danza was present. no not only aztec stuff is taught.
native elders and teachers hear about this school. many elders and teachers from other nations come by to talk to the kids and share history and stories. and yes about how we are all related.
the idea that natives can have their own school and work toward self sufficiency is something that many want but few attempt.
did they do a good job? thats something else left to be seen in the future.
did patriots want to destroy this place ? yes. The minute men especially. This school was much hated on by patriots that they threatened to kill the kids with a bomb.
yes a bomb threat.
so yes, there are still those that wish to destroy this school and kill off our kids.
yes some are even natives who are members of the minute men. and sites like SOS.org
oh and as an added note:
this school ended up also getting the blessing of the mexica councils/mesas in mexico. They sent reps. Again. I was present to witness this.
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ok....you broke it down a little more
i appreciate that
and yes, i do have a better understanding that not all the orgs are the same
and i stand corrected on the school being in anyway affiliated with these people
i dont live in cali, i live in denver......where all those abovementioned types mishmash everything together.....i am sure you may have met some of these types, who then take it further and mix in militancy and mexican nationalism.....now i know that they are not the status quo here
so of course it was easy to look at them with a broad view
thank you for breaking it down further
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ok....you broke it down a little more
i appreciate that
and yes, i do have a better understanding that not all the orgs are the same
and i stand corrected on the school being in anyway affiliated with these people
i dont live in cali, i live in denver......where all those abovementioned types mishmash everything together.....i am sure you may have met some of these types, who then take it further and mix in militancy and mexican nationalism.....now i know that they are not the status quo here
so of course it was easy to look at them with a broad view
thank you for breaking it down further
ok. i just wrote, but in the other website.
ehh . kind of long.
i been out to denver and met some of the poeople there.
i did meet the cafe cultura people. I heard someone complain about them but didn't really say what they didn't like.
from what i saw they just bring people together and form events for the speaerks and singers to share their talents and ideas and history.
at least thats why my friend was there. she got invited to speak and sing and the native center down in denver. sponsored by cafe cultura.
native girl.
she spoke to college kids and high schoolers about native issues and encouraged them to write and speak their minds.
denver was a cool place.
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ok i will cut and paste for this thread. warning its long.
on the pow wow thing, i think its cause most who are part of mexica dance groups also dont know history beyond their own, of which they themselves are still learning about themselves too.
what happened was this, there was a time when no one knew that a lot of 'mexicans' were natives, and yes we know why. the mindset, behaviour, lack of knowing tribal origins, etc, and the skewed history of "mexicans' attacking natives .
so when we started coming to realizing who we WERE we had a thirst to know more. and we went to pow wows. when we saw that all kinds of white people were dancing and accepted, and that the mc yelled intertribal , well we danced. ONly to find that a lot of people didn't know anything about us and hated on us. This did not feel good and many took it as a challenge.
a challenge both positive and negative depending on who reacted.
some of us chose to break down barriers and make positive relationshiops and settled to start with being 'dinner entertainment". and this wasn't just a mexica problem. APaches were mistreated to . Chumash too. and other tribes who were not original pow wow tribes. So a lot of us who were being mistreated chose to back each other up, and now we are all part of the pow wows. yes mexica dancers even have their own category now and sponsor their own pow wow. at leasat out here in california.
then other chose to be mad and stay mad at being mistreated. and instead of developing relationships and getting to know the people and vice versa of those they want to dance with, they come in late, stay out of the intertribals, dance their 'show' and then leave.
i was never like that.
i found that most of the peopl at pow wows look at the individuals after all that is said and done. THey don't always lump us all together. And they actually have told me good things for sticking around for the whole event. ITs been a long time though.
i see the behaviour of our dancers at pow wows and i myself am offended by my own peoples behavior. THis is not what we worked for.
but about the thing about honoring the vets. Yes many of us do have a problem with that. but we deal with it.
in differetn ways.
some voice their anger, but its the same voice that yells out when our own dances are full of catholicism and we want that out of our own dances but don't know how to get rid of it.
and then theres theres those of us who tolerate that becaususe we are already used to tolerating the mix of catholicism in our communities. and we also have vets too.
this doesn't mean we support our families being vets, but we learned to tolerate it.
Now i am hearing that maybe pow wows were made to honor vets from the beginning. I am still digesting that.
i never heard that before.
i heard about original gatherings between tribes from long ago on the east side of the country.
and i heard the buffalo bill wild west show story.
many of us have heard this and this only and we get shocked when we see an american flag present.
right or wrong this is why.
i liked the word extremist better. it encompasses more than just one story.
brown berets had to go to extremes because the people in the urban areas, the children , were being attacked. it was either that or form gangs. they chose to be as security team. bodyguard types. and allow the people who were being harrassed some protection while the people stood up for their rights.
they were not coming from a native standpoint though, because in those days they were barely beginning to wake up from their colonial brainwashing. But they were a beginning. Lots of things changed since then.
they took their inspiration from the black panthers and AIM.
but remember, they were kids with a kids mindset. they are all grown up now and yes have experienced more and learned more.
MECHA again. Kids. grouping together for a limited time. They organize workshops. bring in speakers. and party it up.
they have a "plan de aztlan" of which is not native based, due to the time period it was written. Many have tried to revise it, but they refuse sticking to nostalgia. But also, no one is around long enough to really change or affect anything, cause they grow up graduate and move on. so it stays the same never changing. but we leave it alone because its a stepping stone for kids who are waking up and being allowed to see someothing different. then they ask questions. THey even question the problems of MECHA itself at their meetings. THen they move on and try to solve problems outside the group in their own improved way.
neo aztecs. thats hard to explain. because its a generalization so it becomes vague.
there are some who seem to be neo but actually have blessings from the elders in mexico but because it looks so different than what northerners are used to seeing , it can look new agey at first.
then theres the catholic mix, which makes it hard to filter out. when someone filters it out, they get attacked for not being traditional. weird
but then there are the new agers. they learn the medicines and ways and start websites and hold seminars that sell out what they were taught. or they just reiterate what they learned in readers digest.
although i say all this. i stepped away from a lot of things. because i mixed in a lot of northern native circles too and found the same issues there. only looks different at first. but was the same .
no one is free from it all.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWY4MkE-XQg
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Nice to meet you Koyoteh
In our part of the northern plains the pow-wow honors the veterans starting with WWI
We always bring in our tribal flags first then the american flag for those fought in the wars.
I believe it is time for all natives to come together from the north to the south.