NAFPS Forum
Odds and Ends => Etcetera => Topic started by: BlackWolf on March 20, 2009, 05:13:44 am
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Someone in the other forum "PODIAS, incorrect assumptions and CUAUHTEMOC LAST ORDERS" asked Koyoteh if he was a supporter of the "Aztlanista" group that was once associated with the "Eagle Mountain" Spiritual Community. I then questioned Koyoteh and gave him my opinion about the Aztlan movement. I think he made his point that he's not one of the radical supporters of Aztlan. ( Or claims not to be anyway ). Since that forum was suppose to be about "PODIAS", I'm moving the discussion here. I'd like to hear Koyoteh's views and what his interpretation of what Aztlan and the Aztlan movement is and means? Anyone not familiar with this term " Aztlán", I'll try to run it down as best as I can.
It refers to the ancestral homeland of the Aztecs ( the Aztecs were a great empire dominated by Nahuatl Speakers ( Mexicas). The Aztecs at some point began to migrate south. In the 14th century the Aztec prophecy came true and they found a place where an eagle clutching a serphant in its talons was sitting on a cactus. This place was Tenochitlan and later became the center of their empire. Tenochitlan is modern day Mexico City. Their origin story tells them that they came from Aztlan ( a place described as in the north) ( Meaning north of Tenochitlan ). Recorded reports from the Aztecs themselves were unreliable as to where it was exactly. Present day Aztlan supporters say it was in the South West United States. I beleive Koyoteh shares this view? Some of the radical supporters of Aztlan say when Mexicans cross the border and settle in the Southwest US, they are really just returning home as indigenous people. Anyways. I'd like to hear Koyoteh's views on the topic.
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thanks for seperating this. thread.
dude i got online to get directions to go pay a ticket and got stuck in these forums. I got to go , but I'll be back later.
I would like to leave some questions though , that people can think about while they consider what they already know or feel they already know.
1) if Aztlan does have a specific place and is real, how would you feel about where it is? What would feel about the people currently residing there? How would you feel if your people shared the same place?
2) when people left Tenochtitlan ( Mexico City ) after the war with Cortes, where do think they went? Do you feel they all went to only one or a few places? Only the ones that are named by a couple of websites? Do you think it possible that they spread far and wide?
Where do you think they went? No matter where they went , wouldn't there have been other tribes there already? Were they welcomed? Were they taken in? WHO were these other nations that took them in?
3) Does your nation have any other names or similar stories that even remotely relate to our "aztlan" story and place of origin?
okay I got to go.
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okay I'm back. Its hard for me to say whether or not I am a radical. I think everyone has their opinion on what that even means.
Aztlan is GENERALLY the southwest AREA of the united states. This area is rather large and non-specific. Its not a city, or a state. Or village. It is an area. So for me, its not farfetched to call it the southwest. Thats a pretty large area. The 'aztecs' in question could come from ANYWHERE in that region.
Thinking about the time period and area that aztlan existed , we need to recognize that they were NOT the only people there. That like others , had their own language and so by using the word aztlan they are using a word to describe an area that other nations would have, even at that time, their own word for the same area. The other nations may even have had a completely and totally different map and view of borders and territories. Such was the causes of conflicts back then from time to time anyways , right?
So to speak of aztlan , we feel , is a pretty SAFE claim being that it is very vague and non-specific.
There are specific theories that many of our credible or respectable elders and teachers and professors have come up with. One of them is BLYTHE I believe. The people that live there are aware of this and have actually welcomed us to continue studying this theory. They have welcomed us as relaltives even. Specifics on more than that I can't say. If interested in that theory, you could try looking into more on your own.
There are other theories of specific place in existence as well. I forgot them already though as it really no longer has had an impact on my life. ITs has been enough for me to know that Azltan is the southwest. And to be anywhere in this area is home.
Still , we have to respect the poeple and nations who live here and continued to live here throughout time, and for those of us involved in our native community and ways, we do do our best to give proper respects.
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Another part of the AZTLAN story speaking of the names of places in the NAHUATL language. remembering , other nations had their own languages.
The other part is the place called CHICOMOZTOC. Literally the mountain or place of 7 caves. Knowing that our people use words with metaphors, this may not even be an actual mountain or actual caves. But within these caves lived 7 nations, clans, or tribes. No matter, there were 7 groups of natives each with their own name. One teaching is that all of them were called, at least at one point in time, ChiChiMecas. NOT MEXICAS. NOT AZTECS. Other names we have been told , possibly , these were also known as the Anasazi.
The Anasazi , as we all know, gave birth to other nations currently living in the southwest. That would imply a shared origin.
I won't bother to name these other nations.
So the story goes. One group at a time the chichimecs migrated down to the south. NOT only stopping in tenochtitlan by the way.
Somewhere between the first and the last group , ONE group in particular began to be called MEXICAS. This was not the real name of their tribe, clan, or nation. At least not the one they started with. That is another tradition - the changing of names. They were called mexicas due to an important leaders name MEXI. The word CA is added to say PEOPLE. SO together it meant MEXI's PEOPLE. THOSE GUYS ... yeah , you know , ol'mexi's bros. Like that. The other way Mexica or Mexicano or Xicano is defined as is People of the Earth. I still have yet to figure out how these two explanations balance out with each other...no matter for this thread.
The Day of the Dead ceremony holds this story of Mexi and the migration that took place. Onward.
When Mexi's people left, they left other tribes and clans and nations behind. This is part is not the focus of the story, but this is what happened and it is briefly mentioned. The question then becomes, who were these people who stayed behind? What happened to them ? who did they go on to become? what language did they speak or come to speak? ...and more probably.
My answer is that these people are the people currently residing in the southwest. That would make them our relatives. Even if they don't like us. Maybe its even part of the origin of some animosity.
One version is that the departing tribes were fleeing.
but here's the official native versio of why , at least the one particular tribe left.
Mexi had a vision or a dream of the land of the eagle and the snake and the cactus . There is even way more deep stuff into this vision that I won't get into here. or right now. And so he lead people south to this area. By the time they arrived decades had past and he was dead.
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so you see, we came from the north, went south, and now are coming back to the north.
We have lived in all these places. They were all home to us. No one can tell us otherwise.
Knowing that one has a home after being taught for centuries that they should not be native, that they are not native, and that they have no homeland or origin or proof of existing, this story has become SACRED to us. It validates us as natives as a part of the land.
Just the fact that we have an origin story at all is something.
Now some might say that , we all don't originate from this, thats no big deal either. Not to us. Because this story exists, since it exists for us, it shows the possibility that one exists for all of us , for each of us. Therefore , it is still sacred to others.
And as others have taken us in and made us a part of them back in time, so we can do for others. If others who are lost and disconnected exist, we welcome them as we were welcomed. No big deal to us. Seems quite generous if you ask me.
If others do not want to adopt that way of life , that generous gift of welcoming 'lost' or distant or disconnected people , thats up to them , thats there perogative ( spellcheck ). But for us , many have welcomed us. ANd so in honor of our hosts and our teachers, we welcome others right back.
The Mexica had history of that anyways, whether it be by force and some say or ceremonial or not. I believe we all had some form of this.
This is how the MEXICA CONFEDERATION came to exist by taking in others.
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Continuing the story.
The Chichimeca / Mexica arrived in at tenochtitlan. They were met by previous tribe who had gone south before them. They were met by the Toltecs as well. The new arrivals , the Mexica band of Chichimeca were not met happily. So they were forced to live in unwanted areas of the region. They hired themselves out as workers and warrior to the Toltecs and soon intermarried and became accepted. They adopted the name MEXICA . They created a confederation of tribes called the Mexica Confederation. Also called the Triple Alliance. I believe , but still am trying to figure out, how the Mexican Confederation balanced out with the Triple Alliance.
I learned of the Confederation through one of my elders. In this Confederation , was alliances with the shoshone, the chumash, the apache, the yaqui, and others, This was amazing to learn about. However , I have not learned much else about it. I have never seen this ever mentioned in books anywhere. Good luck finding it. If you find it , let me know.
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ther is also a spiritual version of what Aztlan is and is about that has nothing to do with a real life physical place. Thats all I will say on that . Its not new age stuff. Its stuff you can really only get from an elder, a teacher, or someone involved with this kind of stuff.
Most people , including my people, are still learning. Most do not know about this part. Most don't even know about the confederation.
since we don't know , how can I expect people outside of our circles to even guess at?
since others can't even begin to guess at this, how can people outside our circles even begin to say "THIS IS HOW IT IS" when it comes to anything about Aztlan?
but this is what happens. even anthros and professors are only given a part of it cautiously.
So if we only rely on books , its only half of the knowledge. without the other half, lots of conclusions can become incorrect.
Even for my own people , which does happen.
but the story is meant as a STARTING POINT. A point of reference to begin our studies. From there we are supposed to continue studying. After years of studying we will not believe the same things about the story we did when we first started.
Many of the groups out there like "aztlanistas" are like this. They got so far as just reading the story. And stopped looking into it. well many of the members of these gruops stopped that for sure. We just say they are stuck and sooner or later they will move on and grow.
but that us , cause we know what we went through while we were growing and what we still are going through as we continue growing.
Many of the aztlanistas do not stay within the confines of those radical groups. As they grow, they begin to realize thats not the place to stay and find more constructive means to be active. But those outside their communities will never see this part. Those on the outside listening to rhetoric only hear the rhetoric not realizing that the person they heard one time no longer believes in what they once said in anger and emotion. The next time a radical aztlanista speaks out in a rage , everyone is really listening to a whole new person, a whole new student, who just read the story and is all fired up. Soon that person also grows and leaves, and so on and so on .
The problem is this, when the persons grow and leave , the group stays behind, those remaiining continue on in name, then they leave, but the name of the group continues on. This is an illusion. Every year the groups name continues to exist, but in reality , its a whole new group of people just starting out. No one would know this if they are only folllowing the groups names or the repeated rhetoric that they see and hear.
For reals, there's always one or two people to stay behind that never leave or mature. They even get old there. These are the ones the rest of us need to be aware of, as they are kind holding others back from growing. Still on the other hand, if they werent there, then a lot of kids would never have had a starting point at all. They would not have had a good or bad experience to make decisions on.
So i don't agree with a lot of that Aztlanista stuff. But my experiences are different then theirs. I ''ve had time to study, go to ceremonies, learn more about it.
But I understand their sentiment . Most if not all natives feel that desire and anger to "take the land back". No native I have had to listen to , including myself , has ever said or added, "while respecting other native nations" or anything of the like. Most often , it is said when they're drunk to boot. Before anyone deny's this , shit , i was there getting drunk along with'em.
This desire will never go away.
How we deal with it , what we do, the fact of doing anything at all is what is important.
I may not agree with how a lot of aztlanistas behave with this desire we all have , but one thing for sure, unlike others who just whine and complain they are ATTEMPTING to deal with it. I have to give them credit and applause for that. Thats kinda tooting my own horn I guess. cause there was time that I felt this way too. At the beginning when I first began to learn and became aware of myself and other nations history. I felt that anger and pain. because of the anger and pain, I did something about it, I took action, and it lead me to where I am today. someplace completely different then where I started, but I had to start somewhere. Aztlanistas are starting at the point they have chosen or have fallen into. I have complete confidence that individually , they will continue past that STAGE in their life.
Why have Aztlanistas gained the reputation they have?
Because of AIM for one. AIM is one of their big heroes. So are others. Brown Berets. Black Panthers. The alcatraz takeover. DQ-U takeover. Along with Geronimo, Crazy Horse, Zapata, and Cuauhtemoc. Get the theme here? They are not all just xicano heroes now , and they don't have to be. They were people of resistance. Warriors. Who do we applaud in all of our nations histories? People of resistance our WARRIORS.
Aztlnistas are warriors. But the problem is that warriors need good leaders or to be good leaders as well.
This is where the argument actually comes in. Do they have good leaders? Are they good leaders?
I won't touch that. For now, they are warriors, whether right or wrong, they are trying -INDIVIDUALLY wise.
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and by saying these things , in does not imply approval or disproval in any way.
I just sayinig ...I understand the sentiment.
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Need to distinguish between Aztlanistas as a group, at one time big enough to be called a movement, and the tiny bunch in S California today operating Aztlan.net, which is correctly IDd as a hate group by the SPLC and others.
You also refer to the term Chichimeca repeatedly as a term the Nahua used for themselves. It's not , it's the insult the Aztecs had for tribes further north, implying they were uncivilized. It means "dog without an owner" or wild barbarian.
Big obvious mistakes like this are why I wondered in the other thread about the people you say are elders teaching you traditions. There are Nuage frauds who specialize in preying upon Mexicans eager to know their NDN heritage, just like some target Blacks, Jews, etc. And then there are Mexicans who are PODIAs not in terms of degree of ancestry but terms of their NDN culture(s) who simply naively pass along misinformation.
Just the fact that you call yourself Aztec, instead of Nahua as Nahua people of central Mexico generally do, suggests to me you are probably well intentioned but still need to be cautious about where to learn.
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To answer your third question Koyoteh.
A long long time ago, there was a land that was surrounded by water that no one could drink. (An island perhaps? ) This land at some point began to sink, and a great journey was started towards the Cold. (The North ) Seven traveling groups were formed to insure survival. They later crossed valleys and fertile ground, and hot sand, and crossed rivers. The first river that was crossed flowed from where the Sun went up to where it went down. ( Possibly crossing the Rio Grande? (And the ancient language was still spoken at that time ). Great beast with humps on their back were seen, and some were killed for food and shelter. They crossed another river, ( The Red River? ) which ran west to east and they passed small green mountains. They crossed another river that ran from where the cold came and the Sun went down and ended between where the Sun came up and where they had come from. ( Arkansas River? ) and they arrived at where the land turned white and covered the whole ground, and were they were then warned to leave by the Seers. They camped here so the seers could see the future. The Seers said to leave, because a great calamity was coming. They then crossed the big river that ran from the Cold to the South ( Mississippi?) After centuries this great journey ended in a land of great mountains, and water and game. The travelers told of people that they passed who built mounds and sacrificed people. ( any one want to guess on this one? ) They arrived at a place with material for baskets, and blow guns, and clay for pottery, and material for houses. They arrived at the Great Smokey Mountains.
This is part of the Cherokee Origin or Journey story that was told to m. I have asked certain Cherokee that know this story just exactly where it is we came from so long long ago. Who knows? I have heard South America, and even that we came from an Island in the Carribean long long ago. We came from the South, as you Koyoteh say your people came from the North. One thing is clear. This place has been lost to time, just as Aztlan has. To add another piece to the puzzle. Cherokees speak an Iroquoian language, (the only Southern Iroquoian Language ) which is in the same language family as Mohawk and other languages from tribes from the Great Lakes Region. As a comparison to your connection to the Anasazi people.
I think Koyoteh, that this could be the story of many people throughout the world with some variation or another. The Celts were not originally from Ireland. They migrated from somewhere over in Eastern Europe, or maybe even Northern Germany. The Celts later arrived in the Island we know today as Ireland. They conquered and assimilated the people that were already there. Some centuries later the Vikings arrived plundering, and raiding the Irish Coastline, eventually establishing the city of Dublin. Today the Capital of Irish culture. Many societies throughout the world could find a similar story. I do not search for this mythical place that my Cherokee ancestors came from. This place has been lost to time, and history, just as Aztlan has been lost to time. I know where my people come from, and that’s good enough for me.
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Need to distinguish between Aztlanistas as a group, at one time big enough to be called a movement, and the tiny bunch in S California today operating Aztlan.net, which is correctly IDd as a hate group by the SPLC and others.
You also refer to the term Chichimeca repeatedly as a term the Nahua used for themselves. It's not , it's the insult the Aztecs had for tribes further north, implying they were uncivilized. It means "dog without an owner" or wild barbarian.
Big obvious mistakes like this are why I wondered in the other thread about the people you say are elders teaching you traditions. There are Nuage frauds who specialize in preying upon Mexicans eager to know their NDN heritage, just like some target Blacks, Jews, etc. And then there are Mexicans who are PODIAs not in terms of degree of ancestry but terms of their NDN culture(s) who simply naively pass along misinformation.
Just the fact that you call yourself Aztec, instead of Nahua as Nahua people of central Mexico generally do, suggests to me you are probably well intentioned but still need to be cautious about where to learn.
sorry but it may be insulting to some to be called a dog, but no, it wasn't an insult, at least not in every instance. They were the Dog People. Plenty of nations had these societies so its not suprising that they would to. The codices even show them wearing the skins of canines. Could be coyotes or dogs, all the same really.
The insulting word is from todays word CHOLO comes from. Xolotl the izquintli - or HAIRLESS DOG is a real dog, but its the cholo term that was the insult dog word. We still have this word in our community today. A cholo is the stereo typical mexican gangmember.
And yes , the toltecs and other nations did put them down , especiallly when they were travelling and arriving , being called barbarians. This is becuase they were somewhat like what people call "nomads" but as has been pointed out to me , there really weren't any real nomads. But that is how they were perceived by others regardless. And after travelling through deserts for a few years, you'd look wild and crazy too.
There was discrimination back then towards them. The story I gave you mentions this.
there was no nation who called themselvs aztecs. Aztecs was a term that meant "featherworker". When cortes asked other nations "who are those people over there?" Cortes was told "Those are the aztecs ( the feather workers )" Had Cortez asked "what is that nation over there?" The natives would have responded differently. But Cortez just asked the wrong question ,and took it as the name for the nation. Why I say this? Cause you keep saying aztecs and tell me about chichimeca. Where did you learn this stuff? In a book? Watch out for them books. There are clues in the books but not definite or accurate facts in a lot of them. And unless you are right in the middle of this stuff , there's no way anyone could tell.
We here are in the middle of it day in and day out.
I don't believe you could distinguish between any of all the kinds of mexicas we got these days. Nothing personal , you just don't live with us. Remember, we didn't just stay put. We left, we stayed put too, we grew , we evolved. Now we have to many groups to keep track of to be of just one defining anything for anyone to tell us we can only be one way. It just don't humanly work that way.
But to know the differences between all the groups that believe in Aztlan , you'd really have to be here be a part of our world. There isn't just one way when it comes to the issue of Aztlan.
I , in particular, am a descendant. I found my history, and it wasn't a nice story. My native Mexica ancestor was a slave to Cortez's people. Its how my family received their last name. The other half of me is of another tribe. But I don't know much about that. That tribe became pretty catholic and I don't want any of that.
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Need to distinguish between Aztlanistas as a group, at one time big enough to be called a movement, and the tiny bunch in S California today operating Aztlan.net, which is correctly IDd as a hate group by the SPLC and others.
shit if a lot of individual natives , not all but some, could be all on their own their own group, they'd be called a hate group.
Its like this rap poem i heard once, "black people ain't prejudice , we just mad.." same thing. But as we grow we can leave the anger behind. But everyone deserves the right to be mad for a little while. Its the first step to "not taking this shit no more!" and trying to begin to change.
It does no body good to stay living in anger or madness though. but they got to get over it on their own.
I don't know aztlan.net . i guess i'll check it out. but still whoever they are , they are still just one group in thousands. A few people out of millions.
i don't know who the SPLC is either.
My group, we're dancers. We dance and we stand up for native people's rights. First , our own. Second, only those who want our help. There's lots of us. We are quite unlike the azltlanistas that you are speaking about. But we still believe in Aztlan. We just respond to it differently.
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To answer your third question Koyoteh.
A long long time ago, there was a land that was surrounded by water that no one could drink. (An island perhaps? ) This land at some point began to sink, and a great journey was started towards the Cold. (The North ) Seven traveling groups were formed to insure survival. They later crossed valleys and fertile ground, and hot sand, and crossed rivers. The first river that was crossed flowed from where the Sun went up to where it went down. ( Possibly crossing the Rio Grande? (And the ancient language was still spoken at that time ). Great beast with humps on their back were seen, and some were killed for food and shelter. They crossed another river, ( The Red River? ) which ran west to east and they passed small green mountains. They crossed another river that ran from where the cold came and the Sun went down and ended between where the Sun came up and where they had come from. ( Arkansas River? ) and they arrived at where the land turned white and covered the whole ground, and were they were then warned to leave by the Seers. They camped here so the seers could see the future. The Seers said to leave, because a great calamity was coming. They then crossed the big river that ran from the Cold to the South ( Mississippi?) After centuries this great journey ended in a land of great mountains, and water and game. The travelers told of people that they passed who built mounds and sacrificed people. ( any one want to guess on this one? ) They arrived at a place with material for baskets, and blow guns, and clay for pottery, and material for houses. They arrived at the Great Smokey Mountains.
This is part of the Cherokee Origin or Journey story that was told to m. I have asked certain Cherokee that know this story just exactly where it is we came from so long long ago. Who knows? I have heard South America, and even that we came from an Island in the Carribean long long ago. We came from the South, as you Koyoteh say your people came from the North. One thing is clear. This place has been lost to time, just as Aztlan has. To add another piece to the puzzle. Cherokees speak an Iroquoian language, (the only Southern Iroquoian Language ) which is in the same language family as Mohawk and other languages from tribes from the Great Lakes Region. As a comparison to your connection to the Anasazi people.
I think Koyoteh, that this could be the story of many people throughout the world with some variation or another. The Celts were not originally from Ireland. They migrated from somewhere over in Eastern Europe, or maybe even Northern Germany. The Celts later arrived in the Island we know today as Ireland. They conquered and assimilated the people that were already there. Some centuries later the Vikings arrived plundering, and raiding the Irish Coastline, eventually establishing the city of Dublin. Today the Capital of Irish culture. Many societies throughout the world could find a similar story. I do not search for this mythical place that my Cherokee ancestors came from. This place has been lost to time, and history, just as Aztlan has been lost to time. I know where my people come from, and that’s good enough for me.
cool , good for you. glad you know. That means you'll be free of the stress other people have.
Nice to hear that one nation could have possibly something in common with all humanity.
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you know, other nations have been glad to help us, as well as themselves by looking deeper into the story and 'myth' of AZTLAN.
its not just us mexicans , or 'raza' that are interested.
Some tribes and tribal members and elders of other nations have taken a keen interest in their own teachings about how we are all related and started to look at their own histories and stories - and they have found similarities and interesting and sometimes unexplained things from within their own nations.
These teachers and elders of other nations sometimes come to visit us to share in their findings , discoveries, or old traditions and stories.
You may not like it , but this is what they do , and we are glad to listen to them and welcome them and receive them. They always come back and I am grateful to them and for them.
One man , in particular, I can't remember his name, but even if that matters to you , it doesn't to me right now, he was a ZUNI. He told us some stories. Then he told us how he went to look further deeper into them to find their origins and truths and physical evidence even . He ended finding what is evidence of the ZUNIS being related to the mesoamericans - somehow someway. In the least , we made contact at least once.
Amongst his people , they have a story about a macaw, only they don't have macaws - we did. They have a place where there were , I think, about 7 holes, in a wall I think. In one of these walls was a sacred macaw feather passed down and taken care of for a long time by the ZUNI.
I this story of this physical place that he found out about and went to , was an event . Some nations gathered, something happened, and they went off in different directions.
There was more, but I ain't going to say what.
He a ZUNI was telling us about the similarities of this to our story of ChicoMoztoc, Aztlan.
What it shows isn't proof of anything of course, but it does show the POSSIBILITY and validity of our story AND HIS and how wonderfully we are all related.
Dude even went on to tell us , even though he is Zuni, his people don't have a clear definition of what Zuni means or where the word comes from. I also believe he said they have their own name in their own language that is not "zuni". I don't remember that well on that.
and there are others from other nations as well , but thats all I'll say on that. you don't really need to know about all them. I'm sure if they wanted you to know , they'd have told you.
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truth be told , we didn't just come only from the north. Thats just what people like to focus on. Mexicas are a result of different nations mixing with each other. As much as some nations may not like the idea of mixing , that is what happened for better or worse. The other nations , well some came from the south.
there was a cycle of people going north, then south, then north , then south , etc. Not saying who, just that it happened.
Big deal. That shouldn't be offensive or ruffle feathers, but somehow the idea does bother people.
The popol vuh mentions the Yaqui people . THey mention the direction they went. As you know the mayans were way down south.
somebody spread the way of the "feathered serpent". There's even mounds of the eagle and snake in the south east area of the u.s. but i forget where.
its no coincidence, and really no big deal, and no shit sherlock that people would say, right or wrongly, that "we are just coming back home". Doesn't mean we want to take your house, thats just paranoia.
Yeah you see it in the news, but the news is the main culprit of always creating paranoia. Its makes good ratings.
I always remember growing up , and still to this day , watch the news every year report "the worst storm of the century" "mother nature strikes" and such shit, and behind the newscaster would be some little kid and his dad splashing and having fun and just going about their day. Its all bullshit the news.
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....Big obvious mistakes like this are why I wondered in the other thread about the people you say are elders teaching you traditions. .....
Just the fact that you call yourself Aztec, instead of Nahua as Nahua people of central Mexico generally do, suggests to me you are probably well intentioned but still need to be cautious about where to learn.
something i didn't notice before. I use the term aztecs sometimes only cause its a commnon term everyone knows. had you asked me , like cortes didn't ask, about what the name of the nation is , REALLY is I would say different. Speaking loosely. I don't have a problem with like other people do. As long as we know what the real stuff is that is. I thought you did, so I just said aztec haphazardly. But you do know who I was referringto right?
And no , we don't call ourselves Nahua. At least like if I was asked what nation I am , I would not say Nahua. I would say Mexica. Yes this even has its problems , I am aware of the way many other nahuas feel about that. Oh well. They even call us FARSANTES sometimes. Meaining we are faw away dancers. Nahuas is a general term for many Nahuatl speaking nations. not just one.
Plus I never really said I was learning TRADITIONS. At least not JUST TRADITIONS. That was another thread and I did say more than that. So read it in context of what was being said there. I said I was learning. You might not like what my elders have to teach though , and that is something else entirely.
Yeah they teach traditions, but they also teach the concept of OLLIN and adaptation , basically that tradtions can change. That is not a popular concept amongst other nations.
you can pick up any book or even a new age book , about OLLIN. Shit sometimes the new age books get lucky and have something in it that they stole. Okay so they stole it, but was it accurate what they stole? Sometimes it is , and thats also part of why people hate on new age books, cause sometimes they get shit right , BUT THAT THEY SHOULDN"T HAVE A RIGHT TO, but they get right and that makes us mad.
but there are plenty of real non new age books out there on ollin. pick one up.
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that don't mean I support new age books now , cause I don't.
i see how that coulda been confusing.
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Koyoteh, have you spent time with your tribe in Mexico ( Mexicas )? Meaning with the fluent Nahuatl speakers in central and other parts of Mexico. You mention elders and I’m assuming you mean the speakers of this language. I know there’s a community of these speakers in California. Mostly first generation immigrants from Mexico. Is this the community where your elders come from and whom you learn your traditions and knowledge? And were your elders raised as Traditional People and do they come from Traditional Communities? I think Educatedindian has a point about exploitation of people seeking their roots, but I’m not saying its your case. When people leave their communities, a lot of the old ways are lost.
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In your opinion Koyoteh what is the mainstream Aztlan agenda? Meaning, what do most of the Aztlan followers want? You told us a little bit about the idea of Aztlan and what it is. But lets talk about reality. Do Aztlan supporters want Political Autonomy form the US? ( Kind of like Quebec in Canada ) Do they want Complete Independence? Do they want to become part of Mexico? ( That would be a mistake considering the poverty in Mexico ). Does the Mexican American War ( 1846-1848) come into play here? ( Mexico lost almost half its territory in that war under the “Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo: for those that don’t know the history ) What about Mexican Nationalism? Is Aztlan about being Indian or about being Mexican or Chicano? Or do supporters just want the status quo with people following their Indian ways? Will one colonial language be replaced by another ( English for Spanish?)
These are all good questions, considering that most Mexicans from Mexico when asked will say that the Southwest territory was stolen from them by the United States. And the fact that the Southwest is on track to have a majority hispanic population in the future. And what about all of the Patriotic American Hispanics in the Southwest? Will they have a place in Aztlan? Or are they considered detrimental to the cause?
Anyone interested, can read about the Mexican American War here.
http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/index_flash.html
What do you mean here? About animosity?
My answer is that these people are the people currently residing in the southwest. That would make them our relatives. Even if they don't like us. Maybe its even part of the origin of some animosity.
And what about Federally Recognized Tribes in Aztlan. Since everyone ‘s Indian anyway. ( They are, racially speaking ).
Will the citizens and tribal members of Federally Recognized Tribes still maintain their sovereignly? Or will this hypothetical Aztlan world be like. “ We are all Indians, why should they have Casinos, Per Caps and Indian Health Service?" I think you said before, that whites and blacks won’t be kicked out. So I guess they would all be welcome like you said. At least your not a radical. Are most Aztlan Supporters Radical? Or are the Radicals in your opinion the exception to the rule.
EVERYONE should see this short video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM)
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of course not. not only don't i not speak nahuatl fluently enough even for the ones here, but neither do I speak spanish, which would be the common language that would help bridge language gaps. AND I was born here. 3rd generation. long way from there. No we got our own struggles here. Different but still struggles. there is also a barrier between us here and us over there. Not just a physical distance but a time distance and other kinds of distances. These distances that PODIA refers to , I acknowledge. It is a challenge.
You shouldn't assume anything about elders. I don't anymore. i can't. If only you knew even of the struggles elders in mexico have with each other you might understand. Too many elders have problems and differences with each other . They are human after all. So to only go by what an elder says is illogical. What one elder says goes against another, and then we get caught up in their fight. Usually something personal they had with each other back when they were young and not elders. Thats just life. My elders tell me to watch out for this and not get caught up in their pezos. That includes those in mexico. I know some here in los angeles. So what. Knowing them don't make me better than someone who doesn't.
The people living in mexico have a different reality than us here as well. They will tell you that too. They will say it differently, maybe more colorful depending on how they feel about it, but still the same.
The next real part is "if my elders were raised traditionally or not" . I don't care about that as much anymore. IF I want to live with a tradtional principle of respecting my elders , tahan that really shouldn't matter. what matters is their knowledge and wisdom and respect for their people and if they are good people.
what i rally think is that ia m being asked for names so that my elders can be checked out, to see if they pass someones test or not. I am not going to give up names. I will not drag my elders into this. I ahve respect for them. If anyonoe has respect for their own elders then they will not ask me to give up mine. and they will understand the need to protect them. even if someone says taht they are not out to get them.
my apologies if this typing is coiming out all crazy , its seems that this window on this site is acting kinda squiirrly , unusual.
Koyoteh, have you spent time with your tribe in Mexico ( Mexicas )? Meaning with the fluent Nahuatl speakers in central and other parts of Mexico. You mention elders and I’m assuming you mean the speakers of this language. I know there’s a community of these speakers in California. Mostly first generation immigrants from Mexico. Is this the community where your elders come from and whom you learn your traditions and knowledge? And were your elders raised as Traditional People and do they come from Traditional Communities? I think Educatedindian has a point about exploitation of people seeking their roots, but I’m not saying its your case. When people leave their communities, a lot of the old ways are lost.
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lets take whatever origin story you claim to be yours and I ask you this...
does your story have anything to do with politics? religion? how about anything to do with taking over the world? is your story about being "supported"?
For the sake of continuing i will assume the negative. The story is what it is. It may have literal aspects or not. But it definetely will have other metaphorical or even spiritual aspects, maybe. But you know as well I the world knows that any origin story can be taken and USED as a tool to rally a people and unify them. Thats not so bad. What happens next is the real issue.
What does a person do with the rallying or unification? ANYONE can go different directions from there. Its not the story thats the problem. The story is not political and has no agenda. It existed before all this bull you see on the internet and on t.v.
SUPPORTERS? I've never heard anyone use that term when speaking of any other nations origin or immigration stories. Only we hear it when concerning ours. Don't you find that strange? Ask yourself this, WHO BENEFITS FROM THIS WAY OF THOUGHT? Not us.
Try asking someone else if they have supporters and an agenda for their origin story. CRAAZY.
FOLLOWERS? dude, this ain't a cult.Aztlan isn't a religioun. Its a story. Aztlan isn't even what we are about. Its not our focus point. Its just one part of our history. What matters is so many others things. Aztlan is cool and sacred, but it doesn't feed us. It doesn't clothe us. It doesn't give us autonomy or soveirreignty. It gives us inspiration and pride and connection. Thats it.
You ask a lot of questions the same as a lot of our younger xicanos do. same stuff. You write like they do when they don't know anything and are just beginning to hear of things. Like a high schooler or young college student , like a MECHISTA a MECHA MEMBER. What you are asking is reall about years worht of studying. even more than thatt.
Like they hear and learn bits and pieces and thne regurgitate it and hope that someone corrects them . Nothing wrong with that either from the sense that they are just looking for knowledge. but there are better wayus to go about it. Like without accusastions or put doens't
glad we abre tlaking though. Agian this window is acting weird gotta stop typeing.
In your opinion Koyoteh what is the mainstream Aztlan agenda? Meaning, what do most of the Aztlan followers want? You told us a little bit about the idea of Aztlan and what it is. But lets talk about reality. Do Aztlan supporters want Political Autonomy form the US? ( Kind of like Quebec in Canada ) Do they want Complete Independence? Do they want to become part of Mexico? ( That would be a mistake considering the poverty in Mexico ). Does the Mexican American War ( 1846-1848) come into play here? ( Mexico lost almost half its territory in that war under the “Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo: for those that don’t know the history ) What about Mexican Nationalism? Is Aztlan about being Indian or about being Mexican or Chicano? Or do supporters just want the status quo with people following their Indian ways? Will one colonial language be replaced by another ( English for Spanish?)
These are all good questions, considering that most Mexicans from Mexico when asked will say that the Southwest territory was stolen from them by the United States. And the fact that the Southwest is on track to have a majority hispanic population in the future. And what about all of the Patriotic American Hispanics in the Southwest? Will they have a place in Aztlan? Or are they considered detrimental to the cause?
Anyone interested, can read about the Mexican American War here.
http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/index_flash.html
What do you mean here? About animosity?
My answer is that these people are the people currently residing in the southwest. That would make them our relatives. Even if they don't like us. Maybe its even part of the origin of some animosity.
And what about Federally Recognized Tribes in Aztlan. Since everyone ‘s Indian anyway. ( They are, racially speaking ).
Will the citizens and tribal members of Federally Recognized Tribes still maintain their sovereignly? Or will this hypothetical Aztlan world be like. “ We are all Indians, why should they have Casinos, Per Caps and Indian Health Service?" I think you said before, that whites and blacks won’t be kicked out. So I guess they would all be welcome like you said. At least your not a radical. Are most Aztlan Supporters Radical? Or are the Radicals in your opinion the exception to the rule.
EVERYONE should see this short video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM)
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In your opinion Koyoteh what is the mainstream Aztlan agenda? Meaning, what do most of the Aztlan followers want?
There is no mainstream. I got to use a generalized term for us since others, as you say, claim aztlan. "raza" are too large to have a mainstream anything. Thats reality. We have a lots of groups yes, and that why we can't be mainstream . Every group has their own ways. Some traditionals ,some not, and some half and half. There are no aztlan followers. There are dancers, artists, musicians, workers, and more, etc, and 'militants'. I think what you really are talking about are the militant type. They are not real militants, they are attracted to the militant MIND and the WARRIOR aspects of our culture. They are trying to fit into that. As they get older they learn more and find out what being a warrior is really about. Younger warrior minded people in ALL our nations have a tendency to react first and think later. same goes with us no different.
Does the Mexican American War ( 1846-1848) come into play here? ( Mexico lost almost half its territory in that war under the “Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo: for those that don’t know the history ) What about Mexican Nationalism?
No, but the same people are learning about these other things and so they will often speak about these things as well. Its like asking if lodges have anything to do with basket weaving. No , but a basketweaver may also attend a lodge and talke about a lodge while basket weaving. Others may assume that lodges are a part of basketweaving.
but one thing different. That traety and mexico are a part of our history specifically us. Its about how we ALSO have a broken treaty and a broken country
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Is Aztlan about being Indian or about being Mexican or Chicano? Or do supporters just want the status quo with people following their Indian ways?
That is a real complicated question. Mexican in what way? Mexican as in Mexican citizen or national from mexico? or Mexican the indigenous way? See Mexican also means MEXICA. So does XICANO so does MEXICANO. Look at the pattern Mexica,Mexicano,Xicano.See it? Its all the same word. Just like Frank, Francis, Francisco,etc. Same name. different way to say it. BUT its only the same word from the native perspective and language. So yes its about being native. Like I said CONNECTION and also SELF IDENTITY. WHich is something we lost and lots of others take for granted being born with it. We really have seen the damage caused by from loss of identity. Not just about being indian, but its part of the reason why we got gangs full of our people. Its bigger than this discussion. Its about sparking change in our people and the choices we can make. CHOICES is not something we really had before knowing about Aztlan. Well some of us. For others it wasn't aztlan at all but something else entirely. So its again, its not about aztlan.
Will one colonial language be replaced by another
this is really a question about trust and a statement about how, because of your/our history, we don't trust anyone. So really its a personal problem. Its makes no sense to ask us this if other nations who say "take the land back" aren't also asked. Then it becomes a question of trust, animosity, and discrimination and more.
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i hope you and others are asking me as koyoteh NOT an aztlanista of whatever your ideas of aztlanistas are. I am a danzante. I am not speaking as an aztlanista since I really dont think there are any such thing. I am even only using the term cause its a point of reference in this thread with you and others here, but I feel i know what you mean.
most Mexicans from Mexico when asked will say that the Southwest territory was stolen from them by the United States. And the fact that the Southwest is on track to have a majority hispanic population in the future. And what about all of the Patriotic American Hispanics in the Southwest? Will they have a place in Aztlan? Or are they considered detrimental to the cause?
Most mexicans from mexico will answer only what they have learned from books from their govt regulated schools that they were taught with. As you know the books of this country never told the truth about natives. Same goes for the country of mexico. You can expect them to know anymore from their books then we do from ours. If you are who YOU say you are then you know where you had to learn the truths from. Give them that chance to get there.
When you speak about detriment and causes , you put two things together that don't necesarily go together. WHAT CUASE do you speak of? We have many. The cause of Aztlan? There is no such thing. That would be the cause of UNIFICATION. But we all have different opinions and methods and ideas for that and on that. Patriotic people....hmmm... I think I know what you mean but i am not sure. Hispanics and latinos are those who 1) are really of the spanish ancestry or 2) have chosen their spanish ancestry over their indigenous side or 3) have chosen to be/ live like spanish or american (or whateve country they are from) when they are really natives or 4) have chosen not to resist for whatever reasons or 5) love the idea of being patriotic nomatter what or who they are .just happy to bleong. to something.
like other natives , some natives do not like these types. what can I say? thats on them. Thats realyy a erpsonal matter. whomever hates on someone else really is fighting their own problems. We all got problems don't we? They may not be liked , but like it or not , we all have them , even in our own families. How you gonna kick out your family? How you gonna kick out your friends families?
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And what about Federally Recognized Tribes in Aztlan. Since everyone ‘s Indian anyway. ( They are, racially speaking ).
Will the citizens and tribal members of Federally Recognized Tribes still maintain their sovereignly? Or will this hypothetical Aztlan world be like. “ We are all Indians, why should they have Casinos, Per Caps and Indian Health Service?" I think you said before, that whites and blacks won’t be kicked out. So I guess they would all be welcome like you said.
answering this the way you have it is incriminating.
let me ask you this instead. Do you support the idea or way of life that any tribe in these americas SHOULD be federally recognized at all to have any kind of validity or rights? Answering yes is also incriminating. YES would mean that one supports the claim of the current govts to decide who we are and who should have rights. FEDERALLY recognized means just that. Recognized by whom? The U.S. govt. so federally recognized tribes by that term alone is a way to say we will never be allowed to be truly sovereign. ONLY if they want to recognize us. And they don't recognize anyone who has not made a treaty with them and only them. Oh yeah, the treaty part is also a part of it. Its the main part of it.
From what I hear from the people you call aztlanistas who are aware of other indigenous nations , ALL native nations would be sovereign, SOVEREIGNTY , I guess you can say , is the CORE of what people generally refer to as the "aztlan movement". Its just that not all the people who yell "aztlan" are at the same levels of education and awareness when it comes to natives things from other nations. Shit , its like , how much do you really know about us? TOO. ???
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So I guess they would all be welcome like you said.
no i don't think i said all would be welcome. I can't say that. I don't represent everyone else. If I did, thats not what I meant to say.
I just haven't said who wouldn't be welcome. and I'm not going to. to assume who i would pick would be wrong. Whomever tries to guess at who I would pick , really is stating their own personal choices.
I think every native has fantasied at one point or another what our country would be like if we had never been invaded or if all of a sudden this was a native country again. EVERYONE has their idea of what that would look like.
For myself, most everyone would still be here. Things would be run differently though. For me, living all angry or resentful, or revengeful ain't the way to live. Its just bad for the health. Like chris rock said " I'm not saying what he did was right, but i understand..." I can't blame others for feeling the way they feel about things. Too much craziness has happened for people not to feel angry or revengeful or hateful.
At least your not a radical. Are most Aztlan Supporters Radical? Or are the Radicals in your opinion the exception to the rule.
what do you mean by radical? Maybe I am , maybe i am not. My mom said i was, others say not at all, others say not enough. Matter of opinion.
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The next real part is "if my elders were raised traditionally or not" . I don't care about that as much anymore. IF I want to live with a traditional principle of respecting my elders , than that really shouldn't matter. what matters is their knowledge and wisdom and respect for their people and if they are good people.
what I rally think is that ia m being asked for names so that my elders can be checked out, to see if they pass someone test or not. I am not going to give up names. I will not drag my elders into this. I have respect for them. If anyone has respect for their own elders then they will not ask me to give up mine. and they will understand the need to protect them. even if someone says that they are not out to get them.
How can one be an elder of your tribe if they themselves were not raised in the traditional beliefs? I denounce fake Elders that represent my tribe all the time. The real Elders are the ones that pass on the wisdom and the old ways. For my tribe, they are in Oklahoma and North Carolina and living in their respective communities. And if they weren’t raised there in a traditional community, then how can they be Elders of the tribe?
I’m not questioning yours or their Indianness or Indian heritage, but I doubt that they have the knowledge of your people if they don’t come from a traditional community of your tribe. Mexican or Chicano traditions may be a hybrid of Roman Catholicism and certain Indian traditions, but it is not one and the same as the Traditions from the traditional Indians or the Mexica or Nuhua people that live in Mexico.
Have you been to a real living breathing community of your tribe’s people in Mexico? In my tribe, most of the people that claim to be Cherokee Elders tend to prey on vulnerable people. They usually get their knowledge from books or the internet, and although they get some things right, they tend to interpret and filter these beliefs thorough their own belief system, while hybridizing these beliefs with other belief systems that are completely separate. And since the vulnerable people being taught by these frauds were not raised in Traditional Ways, they can’t really judge what they are absorbing. These fake Elders also tend to fabricate their own revisionist history of the tribe they claim.
Even in Mexico, many Nahuatl speaking people have lost the old ways through no fault of their own, but I’m sure there are people there that still carry on the old ways and tradions. Have you ever been to a community there?
I see some of the Wannabes here from my own tribe as people that think they can just take culture, without making a commitment, and when they do take a commitment, that commitment has to follow their own agendas. For example, they only learn what is convenient for them, and leave out what is not. They like to dress up fancy with feathers and beads and look nice, and go to powwows, and they read a lot of books, about history and tradition, and they think that makes them Indian. This is because they are for the most part only accountable to themselves. And these so called Elders don’t have a community to judge them either, so they basically do or say whatever feels right to them.
They usually prey on and take advantage of innocent people that are searching for their roots. But these phoney Elders and Medicine Men and Women are masters at what they do, and since the Cherokee PODIAS don’t know the difference between authentic and fabricated culture, they easily fall prey to these Charlatans.
You don’t have to give your Elders names and locations, but ask yourself this Koyoteh. Where did they receive their Traditional Teachings? Are they recognized in their Community? And do they have any hidden agendas? You seem to not be able to answer any of these basic questions.
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my people , who now live here in the city ,have been through all these questions already and made our decisions. as have I as one of them. come down here and see what it is like to really know IF you want to know.
I did answer you ,but not in a way you like. what else can I say then? We are not of your tribe, and our people are not of your beliefs. We are on the opposite end of the spectrums both in belief and in location. some things are similar yes, but hell of a lot is very different , as I have learned from experiencing it first hand.
It allso shows the arrogance of individual members of other nations when they use their own tribes beliefs and historical experiences as the rule to judge all the rest. This is what i was referring to in the other thread in one post I made.
So you feel your belief is the only way to judge who an elder is? thats dam conceited and really arrogant.
Its why you will hardly ever see any of us in these forums to really get to know us a speak about us knowledgably. By the definition of your beliefs, we are all fakes.
The next real part is "if my elders were raised traditionally or not" . I don't care about that as much anymore. IF I want to live with a traditional principle of respecting my elders , than that really shouldn't matter. what matters is their knowledge and wisdom and respect for their people and if they are good people.
what I rally think is that ia m being asked for names so that my elders can be checked out, to see if they pass someone test or not. I am not going to give up names. I will not drag my elders into this. I have respect for them. If anyone has respect for their own elders then they will not ask me to give up mine. and they will understand the need to protect them. even if someone says that they are not out to get them.
How can one be an elder of your tribe if they themselves were not raised in the traditional beliefs? I denounce fake Elders that represent my tribe all the time. The real Elders are the ones that pass on the wisdom and the old ways. For my tribe, they are in Oklahoma and North Carolina and living in their respective communities. And if they weren’t raised there in a traditional community, then how can they be Elders of the tribe?
I’m not questioning yours or their Indianness or Indian heritage, but I doubt that they have the knowledge of your people if they don’t come from a traditional community of your tribe. Mexican or Chicano traditions may be a hybrid of Roman Catholicism and certain Indian traditions, but it is not one and the same as the Traditions from the traditional Indians or the Mexica or Nuhua people that live in Mexico.
Have you been to a real living breathing community of your tribe’s people in Mexico? In my tribe, most of the people that claim to be Cherokee Elders tend to prey on vulnerable people. They usually get their knowledge from books or the internet, and although they get some things right, they tend to interpret and filter these beliefs thorough their own belief system, while hybridizing these beliefs with other belief systems that are completely separate. And since the vulnerable people being taught by these frauds were not raised in Traditional Ways, they can’t really judge what they are absorbing. These fake Elders also tend to fabricate their own revisionist history of the tribe they claim.
Even in Mexico, many Nahuatl speaking people have lost the old ways through no fault of their own, but I’m sure there are people there that still carry on the old ways and tradions. Have you ever been to a community there?
I see some of the Wannabes here from my own tribe as people that think they can just take culture, without making a commitment, and when they do take a commitment, that commitment has to follow their own agendas. For example, they only learn what is convenient for them, and leave out what is not. They like to dress up fancy with feathers and beads and look nice, and go to powwows, and they read a lot of books, about history and tradition, and they think that makes them Indian. This is because they are for the most part only accountable to themselves. And these so called Elders don’t have a community to judge them either, so they basically do or say whatever feels right to them.
They usually prey on and take advantage of innocent people that are searching for their roots. But these phoney Elders and Medicine Men and Women are masters at what they do, and since the Cherokee PODIAS don’t know the difference between authentic and fabricated culture, they easily fall prey to these Charlatans.
You don’t have to give your Elders names and locations, but ask yourself this Koyoteh. Where did they receive their Traditional Teachings? Are they recognized in their Community? And do they have any hidden agendas? You seem to not be able to answer any of these basic questions.
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So you feel your belief is the only way to judge who an elder is? thats dam conceited and really arrogant.
I think the question is “how do the Traditional People of your own Tribe judge who an elder is”.
Its why you will hardly ever see any of us in these forums to really get to know us a speak about us knowledgably. By the definition of your beliefs, we are all fakes.
I never said you or your people were fakes. ( If you read any of my other threads you’d realize that). From what I see, most of you and your people are Indian. But that’s different then knowing the traditional beliefs of your tribe. And your right, its not up to me or anyone else to judge here. If your Mexica Tradional people accept your elders, then that’s all that counts. Which is what I was trying to get at.
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So I guess they would all be welcome like you said.
no i don't think i said all would be welcome. I can't say that. I don't represent everyone else. If I did, thats not what I meant to say.
I just haven't said who wouldn't be welcome. and I'm not going to. to assume who i would pick would be wrong. Whomever tries to guess at who I would pick , really is stating their own personal choices.
I think every native has fantasied at one point or another what our country would be like if we had never been invaded or if all of a sudden this was a native country again. EVERYONE has their idea of what that would look like.
For myself, most everyone would still be here. Things would be run differently though. For me, living all angry or resentful, or revengeful ain't the way to live. Its just bad for the health. Like chris rock said " I'm not saying what he did was right, but i understand..." I can't blame others for feeling the way they feel about things. Too much craziness has happened for people not to feel angry or revengeful or hateful.
As I understand it, Aztlan is about Indian people coming back to their roots. That part is clear.
So you tell us then who would'nt be welcome? Instead of me and everyone guessing.
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I think the question is “how do the Traditional People of your own Tribe judge who an elder is”.
thats a better way to put what you were trying to say. I am not sure they would even phrase it that way. But really you would have to ask them. I have not spenty any time way down there, nor do i plan to. My reality is here. For us hre the question is , how do we move forward here with the knowledge and awareness and the consciousness of who we know we are now ,and who we were and where we came from? Its a whole nother way to look at things, and its a way for us who are here to survive here. yes , others have gone down there and spent time , just not me. and no , a lot of our elders also have not spent any time down there.
but I never said my elders were elders or traditional elders of my TRIBE. I said they were MY elders and elders of my GROUP. I have a hard time these days even using the word tribe cause , yes we are distant in so many ways, but multiply that by the thousansn upon thousands in our spread out population. We are not going to have any council of elders any time soon. AT least, not by the definition you have, where they represent all the people of my "tribe". Thats just a result of our history and the way things worked out.
Down there, yes they do have THEIR elders, by i doubt even they would say they represent anyone else othere than their specific pueblo. Same goes for here, my elders here only are looked up to by us HERE. No where else.
But there is a commonness for us here and them there, in that , it doesn't matter who's elders they are. There's no thing like some of us have like this saying " there's elders and then there's old people" . No . Thats not the way its supposed to be. It may be A reality (not THE reality ) for some today, because of how many old people and elders are fakes and sellouts, but thats not the way its supposed to be. It is about age for us. 52 is the age for eldership. So is the other kind of elder, just being older than someone is another kind of eldershiop. Kinda like the asians with their elder brother and elders sister.
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I never said you or your people were fakes. ( If you read any of my other threads you’d realize that). From what I see, most of you and your people are Indian. But that’s different then knowing the traditional beliefs of your tribe. And your right, its not up to me or anyone else to judge here. If your Mexica Tradional people accept your elders, then that’s all that counts. Which is what I was trying to get at.
i understand what you mean that you didn't say that. But you did. Not directly. Not really referring to me. But you see, a lot of us do fall int.o the definitions you just gave as to who are fakes. You described fakes, and that description is a lot of those from my people. I don't agree that what you said makes someone fakes is true. I know you didn't mean it to be about us, but a lot of it is us. For you , that may be an unfortunate thing. and you may even feel bad for us knowing that this is the case. but don't be, its our reality. We have over 500 years of bullshit to deal with unlike those here of the north who have had it bad but nowhere near as long.
Its still bullshit , but its at a diffferent stage. Had those of the north had about 300 years more of this bull , they'd be more like us.
Your people are in a stage we already passed through a long time ago, only we didn't get to stop there, our bull had to continue on longer. Thats a good thing for those here in the north, but it does lead to a lot of misunderstandings between our nations.
I'm not taking it offensively though. I know what you mean and that you can really only speak in terms of your reality just as I do from mine. But if our peoples can begin to try to understand the realities and stages of other native nations we could do some great things together.
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there's also this , when it comes to us mexicans, salvadorian, nicaraguans, or in general "raza" as some say.
YES we have mixed with the europeans in many ways. We all have. I won't get into that part.
Our native traditions have survived more than even a lot of us "raza" are aware of.
because even us "raza" have had a loss of identity and awareness of indigenous ways, we have lost the awareness of what even that really means.
First we need to ask ourselves what indigenous traditions and culture means to us.
FOOD? ALL of our "raza" food is native and traditional. Its not 'mexican'. Its pure native. The euros adopted OUR food.
Clothes? we have plenty of contributions there. so did the euros, but over half of traditional mexican apparel is pure native.
music? half of it came from the native. They may have new instruments now, but its all comes from the old native beats.
COWBOYS? we were the first cowboys. America got the cowboy from us.
LANGUAGE? MOST of the spanish language and most the english language HERE in the americas is NATIVE and from the NAHUATL. But this is never talked about. Instead those in authority call it LATINO or LATIN coming from the LATIN language. Yes latin in mixed in there, but its lating mixed in with the native.
RESo for my people its just a matter of looking deeper in what is right in front of us.
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RELIGION?
I don't like catholicism because it is christian and it causes me a lot of pain just to be around it. BUT other christians say that catholicism is anything but christian -and they are right. They are right because catholicism here in the americas is maybe like 80% native. Mexican catholocism is pretty much MEXICA 'religion'.
Thats why they revere Jesus's Mother rather than Jesus himself. That virgin mary isn't jesus' mom. its Tonantzin - "our sacred mother EARTH". Jesus is Huitzilopochtli. The devil is Tetzcatlipoca. and so on. and then you got angels and saints and sometimes they all trade places as well.
our ancestors did this mix up intentionally as a survival tool. First to physically survive, second by hiding our culture within the european imagery we could decipher it later on. The CONCHEROS took charge of this.
I know you and others don't like books, but we do, and books have been written to illustrate this to all who are interested in this subject. The concheros can't come to your house or mine, but we can pick up a book with pictures and explanations and look at them yourself no matter where you are at. Its a matter of which books are the good ones.
Here's one. "The Aztec Virgin" by Jon Mini -written and collected info by a white guy maybe, but his knowledge came from one of our Elders who is recognized by those in Mexico and us up here. He's died a few years ago, but he was a big influence on us here. Its hard to even find his name anywhere on the net. ELDER ANDRES SEGURA. He was the consultant on this book. His name is nowhere to be found in the book though. Before dying he went around passing this book out to our communities. For him the knowledge in it was more important than the authors name or way of speaking.
I have to say that cause sometimes the author talks like a new ager or gets preachy. BUt ignoring that the info is right on.
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ELDER ANDRES SEGURA.
I wasn't going to say anything, but Andres Segura had a lot of new ager beliefs. He was an expert on danza folklorico and used that to make many of the danzas that most people do here in cali.
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ELDER ANDRES SEGURA.
I wasn't going to say anything, but Andres Segura had a lot of new ager beliefs. He was an expert on danza folklorico and used that to make many of the danzas that most people do here in cali.
man this was so many years ago , but someone brought me up the other day as having read about me on this website.
well anyone wanting to call segura a new ager obviously has problems with the guy.
i do too. some things i like some things i don't.
point is he had a approval from the 'traditionals'.
there is problems with our definitions and ideas of thigs. TIme periods. age. location. all that does matter.
you my man are young. What you mean by new age, having had experiences with you elsewhere, is not the same for me. I grew up in the generation where the term new ager was created. IT doesn't mean exactly the same thing that your generation means. Same goes for other words you use.
having said that.
segura was a religious man. strict. He was not a person that had an open door policy like yescas. Maybe your are thinking of yescas who was the folklorista.
Yescas is the one responsible for the the open circle danza groups that are out there.
when i say segura was strict, he would whip people in public for breaking rules.
now we have an issue here. Where did this whipping come from?
you can probably guess and the conchero ways were very catholic.
now if real new agers come around, that doesn't mean the person they are attrracted to is wanting them there.
i seen so many new agers gather at reall ceremonies and are not wanted but the people do not chase them away.
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you my man are young. What you mean by new age, having had experiences with you elsewhere, is not the same for me. I grew up in the generation where the term new ager was created. IT doesn't mean exactly the same thing that your generation means. Same goes for other words you use.
I use the term new age as this New Age Frauds forum uses the term new age; Someone who claims of being something in which they are not.
segura was a religious man. strict. He was not a person that had an open door policy like yescas. Maybe your are thinking of yescas who was the folklorista.
Yescas is the one responsible for the the open circle danza groups that are out there.
when i say segura was strict, he would whip people in public for breaking rules.
now we have an issue here. Where did this whipping come from?
you can probably guess and the conchero ways were very catholic.
now if real new agers come around, that doesn't mean the person they are attrracted to is wanting them there.
i seen so many new agers gather at reall ceremonies and are not wanted but the people do not chase them away.
I know it's Segura Andres bc he's in an old documentary from 1965 as you can see here:
http://youtu.be/tT1dxHMhwAo
I say, start at 4:20. Along with showing him being a choreographer for modern dance.
But before I seen this documentary a few years ago, I had found out through some people that Segura Andres wasn't honest on the origins of dances and that he made some up with a false history since he was a good dancer.
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New age doesn't mean what you said, but includes what you said.
New agers yes are that, but they are into spirituality and mix the spiritualities of the world into a big soup and call it their religion or their spirituailty. THey also make up religions and make up ceremonies, and play with crystals.
and yes they are never who they say they are.
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i seen that doc before. i was surprised as you also must have been.
however, this doesn't mean he was not connected to the Mesas nor does it mean he didn't have their blessings.
He was alive in my time. He came across my group of people and did interact with some of us.
He also was in texas and i met with some of those people there.
anyhow. There are problems. He is not a new ager, and he is not the problem.
He is a reflection of the times. A result of history.
THe problem is what took place in history and how you feel about that.
Most of us do not like what took place and takes place. Its not andres segura, but the catholic churchs involvement and the changes they made.
as far as making up dances, anyone who ever says that, what do they mean? Do you mean that no one has the right to make up a dance? That a native cannot make up a dance? That the person who made up a dance is not worthy?
native peoples have always made dances. IF they did not then the dances would not exist.
WE are full of artists and artists do not remain stagnant.
now when someone says they are not worthy enough or have the right to make dances, because they need to earn it and be knowledgeable.
well that may be true. in some places.
who's to judge that that is not what took place?
imagine the first time any native anywhere first made a dance before it became traditional. IMagine how they treated that dance artist or ceremonial person. BUT if the people approve, then the people approve. ITs the people who get to say yay or nay and the people like what segura did.
doesn't mean i have to like the catholicism though.
Maybe the Mesas did not approve of him. IF thats the case show us that they did not approve. That would be best.
he's not my hero or anything so i wouldn't be hurt.
I myself do not approve of the mesas, but they are there. They make most of the decisions for that danza world.
Except for the dancers that rebel against them and their catholicism.
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and by the way, not all native dancing is sacred spiritual.
some dances were created in order to show the public and inspire. I see nothing wrong with that.
sometimes just got to be creative and social.
now if someone sees these non ceremonial dances and believes that they are sacred old traditional dances . Well theres the problem.
now its even a bigger problem if that same someone does not bother to ask teachers if what they are learning are old traditional dances, and then goes on to teach those dances as old and sacred traditionals, then thats a bigger problem.
AND YES that has happened, and is happening. BUT its not the original teachers fault, but the fault of the students who then go on to teach but then don't tell the full story or know the full story.
example. Aztec fire dance. Parts of it are real and parts arent'. Yescas made that up. Kind of.
he choreagraphed old dance and incorporated fire for show. Yet a lot of dancers today do not know this and go on to say its an ancient traditional fire dance.
its not ancient. well not as a fire dance.
Yescas taught a lot of dances and beats that had no names. of which many dances were very very long. In order to teach chicanos, and our institutionalized mind, he had to break up a long long dance into several dances and then create seperate names so his students could distinguish on call.
also, some old dances were like 'groups' . LIke the dances of the sun. there was more than one and all shared a similar beat. BUt for instiutuionalized chicano student dancers, well he again had to chooose which one to call the Sun Dance and rename the other similar beats.
This is what one of his students from Mexicayotl Center in San DIego told me.
Also when it comes to native, especially those who had cities, well there was more than just prayer. THere was hunters, farmers, scholars, warriors, dancers, singers, businessmen, etc.
when tenochtitlan fell, all the culture was thrown into the dance world. EVen the business part.
Now another student of yescas who died recently in northern cali shared this with me almost twenty years ago. That some of these teachers who came like yescas, taught the people different things. SOme were taught the dances for use with different purposes. Some students would be taught the old dances and stories and to recruit that way. Some would be taught the SPiritual side of the dances. WHile others would be taught the business of it. With the goal to create economy for a nation.
well.. Some may not agree with natives running their own businesses by using their own bodies and skills, but some do.
and yes some do take that to a crazy level and exploit. But thats a fine line.
and one more thing. SOme teachers taught the war side of danza. And to stand up for the people , fight. FIght by inspiring the people to take pride and stand up for themselves. Fight by influencing their spirits and in essence RECAPTURING the peoples spirits back to the native world.
Yes i say recapture because the colonists have captured a lot of the people. and we need to take them back.
part of being called Tecpat is a result of us fighting for that , and came from us using dance to get people to be aware of nahuatl.
you had to be there to know about these efforts.
i was there.
you didn't ask here, but since i know you, you always want proof, but for those of us who were there, there really isn't much proof because no one was documenting all of it. Internet wasnt even around. Shit I saw the internet be born. and it really sucked the first ten years.
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ELDER ANDRES SEGURA.
I wasn't going to say anything, but Andres Segura had a lot of new ager beliefs. He was an expert on danza folklorico and used that to make many of the danzas that most people do here in cali.
most people in cali follow the folklorico ways of yescas as yescas had the open door policy and was free.
segura was a conchero which does not have an open door policy. THey don't allow everyone. or at least they didn't 20 years ago.
when you say new ager beliefs, that is vague. He was no wiccan. Which is part of new ager beliefs. He didnt teach wiccan, budddhism, or any other peoples religion. ONly non native religion that was involved was the spaniards catholicism which was forced on them. can't blame him for that.
if you mean that the conchero style is folklorico. ehh no. not exactly . theres folklorico and theres conchero. A person can be part of both worlds though.
and if the choreagraphing bothers you, welll that a bit impractical. ANyone who dances knows that they have to prepare. That there is an energy that is present in a dance and it has to be built up.
so choreagraphing, preparing, PRACTICE and Study is a must. People don't just get up and dance and all of a sudden know what to do and do it in unison. Takes great preparation.
Now creating dances isn't a problem for the elders of these dances and the teachers. Its only a problem for onlookers and even some students who barely know anything about it. Or are judging from outside points of reference.
The point in dancing is to create a big unifying energy with a big climax. and yes i can't give all the details here. THat is not the whole of it. ITs a powerful thing. ONly way to understand that is to participate and feel it.
yescas was the folklorista. He did not hide that. i don't think he used that term though, but he did not hide the fact of what he was sharing. It was a lot of the students that chose not to listen and make up stories about who he was rather than ask.
I asked. I had to ask his students though who are now old and teaching today. They don't tell me the same things that poeple tell me about them. People who are like in their 20's who never met these guys or lived with them.
or in their 30's.
i think you know the site mexicayotl.org?
its been through some revisions , but that mario aguilar i think his name is has a lot of history of his line of danza there.
i read it and talked to him about it, but that was years ago. like a decade almost. Back then he was writing a paper.
the other day i looked throught the sight and some changes were made. but all still informative. SIte changed as he got older.
in his site he even mentions other styles of danza that did not grow to be big. LIke the warrior style. Mentions those teachers names. but admits he don't know about that too much.
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heres some info from ONE man who was there. A student of yescas.
a capitan of danza azteca in san diego.
despite what anyone may think of him and his opinion, he was there and he learned . he is still alive i believe and you can talk to him face to face if you wish.
he covers a lot of ground. He starts of with definitions so you can know what he means whenever he says anything about anything.
he covers a lot of danza history including about mexica nazis, new agers too. He has the definitions written up in alphabetical order . Look up whatever term you wish or have heard of.
http://www.aguila-blanca.com/pdf-files/Mario%20aguilar-dissertation-2009.pdf
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as i review some of what we wrote years ago. Well i can look now in retrospect and see how things in our communities have developed since then.
a lot of people who do enjoy the aztlan story , grew matured, used it as a guide in life to reflect on their history and origins and take pride and be able to relate with good manners to many tribal nations.
and the others, that were called aztlanistas, decided to take the Mexica Nazi route.
In the beginning i did understand their sentiment at being angry about things. But since then, since years have passed now, they have also grown in thought and become more hateful using the Aztalan story in the wrong way . In a way it was never intended. In a way that has nothing to do with their political agendas.
The individuals dogma around their mexica nazi like ideaologies has grown, but not their numbers. Their hype has grown because of internet hype and artistic propaganda, but these are only pictures. Not people. The people themselves are small in number and a minority withing the communities in which they reside.
SHoot one so called 'Mex MOve leader lives rigth there in east los angeles but hasn't really been seen by anyone in almost 20 years. Hes really only on the internet. He doesnt help any of the chicano communities or their events.