Odds and Ends > Etcetera
Talking to Wiccans about Cultural Appropriation
earthw7:
--- Quote from: Atehequa on July 28, 2012, 11:40:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: Yells At Pretendians on July 28, 2012, 09:15:15 pm ---
--- Quote from: Atehequa on July 28, 2012, 07:22:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: earthw7 on May 14, 2012, 12:52:45 pm ---What are Native American Deities? We believe in one God so what are people talking about,
We dont have goddress nor do we have many gods what is wrong with people!
People want to take our belief change them and make them something they are not,
and wonder why we would be upset.
--- End quote ---
And what is the name of that one god who is worshiped by all American Indian tribes ?
--- End quote ---
Atehequa, Earth did not say all NDN cultures have the same name for the Creator, or that all NDN Nations have the same traditions. :) She was speaking from her perspective as a traditional Lakota woman who lives in her community. Please don't try to grill her. She is well known to us and well-respected - both here and in the community where she lives with her people. You'll also find that people don't usually discuss details of beliefs and ceremonies here.
--- End quote ---
Greetings.
That wasn't grilling. I was speaking from the perspective as a traditional Indian who is not Lakota and did nothing to disrespect Earth in responding to her statement about god and beliefs that are not usually discussed here. I have been at places where the one god or single great spirit concept for all Indians has been pushed.
I have to ask, in this endeavor to reveal new age frauds and plastic medicine people, one would think the discussion of what is true and what is false when it comes to those who rip off our spirituality is necessary. Of course I'm not asking anyone about their personal spiritual paths, nor claiming all Indians worship one god.
--- End quote ---
Each tribal nations have their own name for god in their own Language, we all dont understand each other language or ways so there in no one way to lump all of our language and ways in to one concept,
the belief in one enity greater than ourselves, one that is what we are Lakota people call the great mystery, it is not the same name to other tribal nations, but we do not have gods and goddress.
We dont understand the other tribal Nations nor their belief so to have one name for god is impossible
Atehequa:
--- Quote from: earthw7 on July 29, 2012, 04:03:03 am ---
--- Quote from: Atehequa on July 28, 2012, 11:40:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: Yells At Pretendians on July 28, 2012, 09:15:15 pm ---
--- Quote from: Atehequa on July 28, 2012, 07:22:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: earthw7 on May 14, 2012, 12:52:45 pm ---What are Native American Deities? We believe in one God so what are people talking about,
We dont have goddress nor do we have many gods what is wrong with people!
People want to take our belief change them and make them something they are not,
and wonder why we would be upset.
--- End quote ---
And what is the name of that one god who is worshiped by all American Indian tribes ?
--- End quote ---
Atehequa, Earth did not say all NDN cultures have the same name for the Creator, or that all NDN Nations have the same traditions. :) She was speaking from her perspective as a traditional Lakota woman who lives in her community. Please don't try to grill her. She is well known to us and well-respected - both here and in the community where she lives with her people. You'll also find that people don't usually discuss details of beliefs and ceremonies here.
--- End quote ---
Greetings.
That wasn't grilling. I was speaking from the perspective as a traditional Indian who is not Lakota and did nothing to disrespect Earth in responding to her statement about god and beliefs that are not usually discussed here. I have been at places where the one god or single great spirit concept for all Indians has been pushed.
I have to ask, in this endeavor to reveal new age frauds and plastic medicine people, one would think the discussion of what is true and what is false when it comes to those who rip off our spirituality is necessary. Of course I'm not asking anyone about their personal spiritual paths, nor claiming all Indians worship one god.
--- End quote ---
Each tribal nations have their own name for god in their own Language, we all dont understand each other language or ways so there in no one way to lump all of our language and ways in to one concept,
the belief in one enity greater than ourselves, one that is what we are Lakota people call the great mystery, it is not the same name to other tribal nations, but we do not have gods and goddress.
We dont understand the other tribal Nations nor their belief so to have one name for god is impossible
--- End quote ---
Greetings Earth7
So you’re saying the spirits known to me, including Kukumthena, our earth mother spirit do not
exist ? As far as different tribal languages are concerned we are using a common tongue here.
It is good that you have your one god, or Great Mystery, but remember there are other Indians besides the Lakota. Hundreds of different tribes and many different people all not beholden to a single Great Spirit. Perhaps we should make an effort to understand at least some of the ways of other tribes before stating such a broad assumption.
earthw7:
--- Quote from: Atehequa on July 29, 2012, 11:48:07 am ---
--- Quote from: earthw7 on July 29, 2012, 04:03:03 am ---
--- Quote from: Atehequa on July 28, 2012, 11:40:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: Yells At Pretendians on July 28, 2012, 09:15:15 pm ---
--- Quote from: Atehequa on July 28, 2012, 07:22:08 pm ---
--- Quote from: earthw7 on May 14, 2012, 12:52:45 pm ---What are Native American Deities? We believe in one God so what are people talking about,
We dont have goddress nor do we have many gods what is wrong with people!
People want to take our belief change them and make them something they are not,
and wonder why we would be upset.
--- End quote ---
And what is the name of that one god who is worshiped by all American Indian tribes ?
--- End quote ---
Atehequa, Earth did not say all NDN cultures have the same name for the Creator, or that all NDN Nations have the same traditions. :) She was speaking from her perspective as a traditional Lakota woman who lives in her community. Please don't try to grill her. She is well known to us and well-respected - both here and in the community where she lives with her people. You'll also find that people don't usually discuss details of beliefs and ceremonies here.
--- End quote ---
Greetings.
That wasn't grilling. I was speaking from the perspective as a traditional Indian who is not Lakota and did nothing to disrespect Earth in responding to her statement about god and beliefs that are not usually discussed here. I have been at places where the one god or single great spirit concept for all Indians has been pushed.
I have to ask, in this endeavor to reveal new age frauds and plastic medicine people, one would think the discussion of what is true and what is false when it comes to those who rip off our spirituality is necessary. Of course I'm not asking anyone about their personal spiritual paths, nor claiming all Indians worship one god.
--- End quote ---
Each tribal nations have their own name for god in their own Language, we all dont understand each other language or ways so there in no one way to lump all of our language and ways in to one concept,
the belief in one enity greater than ourselves, one that is what we are Lakota people call the great mystery, it is not the same name to other tribal nations, but we do not have gods and goddress.
We dont understand the other tribal Nations nor their belief so to have one name for god is impossible
--- End quote ---
Greetings Earth7
So you’re saying the spirits known to me, including Kukumthena, our earth mother spirit do not
exist ? As far as different tribal languages are concerned we are using a common tongue here.
It is good that you have your one god, or Great Mystery, but remember there are other Indians besides the Lakota. Hundreds of different tribes and many different people all not beholden to a single Great Spirit. Perhaps we should make an effort to understand at least some of the ways of other tribes before stating such a broad assumption.
--- End quote ---
That is not what i said i said: This is what i said---- (Each tribal nations have their own name for god in their own Language), (we all dont understand each other language or ways) so there in no one way to lump all of our language and ways in to one concept,
(the belief in one enity greater than ourselves), one that is what we are Lakota people call the great mystery, (it is not the same name to other tribal nations), but we do not have gods and goddress.
(We dont understand the other tribal Nations nor their belief so to have one name for god is impossible)
That is what i said.
I am not saying anything about your belief! I dont know your belief! I am saying Native Belief don't have have one word for god because we have some many language and ways-- and --No we don't have what is called common tongue unless of course you call English common tongue? You confused me but we do have sign language. As far as Native belief we have the Mother earth but she is not a goddess she is our mother, I do know know many different native ways from acroos our lands. I spend a great deal of time on what is real traditions compared to what is pan-indianism. The movement that is happen among the new agers as the try to lump our belief into something they are not. I object to this if you have evident of what i am saying is not true then give me the name of an elder i can talk to. I will ask
i see it all the time, so can you tell me which Native Belief has many god and goddess because i have never heard of it and i am with native people who lives among my people and see Native people from all different tribal nation all the time. Just had a great visit with Northern Cree woman about their ways
Atehequa:
When you say ‘god, ’is it in reference, or applied as a term meaning all Indian spiritualities, or are you implying that each tribe has just one god ? -”That is not what i said i said: This is what i said---- (Each tribal nations have their own name for god in their own Language)”
Truthfully, Earth7 I am not attempting to invoke any ill feelings .I’m just asking a question pertaining to your use of the word god in reference of Indian beliefs. I too have become disgusted by the new agers and have spoken out against their attempts to patch the holes in their new age faith with bits and pieces of the spiritualities of different Indian tribes, or lump us all as believers of one great spirit, or seeing us as all living a stereotypical Indian lifestyle.
The very fact that we are communicating in the English tongue proves it is serving as a common language between us. Then again we could continue this conversation with you speaking Lakota and I Shawnee, but how far would that get us along ?
Defend the Sacred:
--- Quote from: Atehequa on July 29, 2012, 03:06:22 pm ---When you say ‘god, ’is it in reference, or applied as a term meaning all Indian spiritualities, or are you implying that each tribe has just one god ? -”That is not what i said i said: This is what i said---- (Each tribal nations have their own name for god in their own Language)”
--- End quote ---
Atehequa, Earth has made it clear she's not speaking about anyone else's culture but her own, and she is speaking about her own experiences. I'm not sure why you find that confusing. However, as she said, she does know traditional people from a number of cultures, and she is certainly qualified to make some assessments based on that.
--- Quote ---Truthfully, Earth7 I am not attempting to invoke any ill feelings
--- End quote ---
Respectfully, you are kind of coming off that way, even if it's not your intent. I ask you to please re-read what we have said about how we don't discuss too many details of belief or ceremony here. I'm perceiving that your idea of what is OK to discuss on a public message board is a bit different from ours. You are welcome here, but please respect this, OK :)
--- Quote ---The very fact that we are communicating in the English tongue proves it is serving as a common language between us.
--- End quote ---
The thing is, you are asking people to discuss things that can only be understood in the language of the specific culture, and within the entire cultural matrix that those words refer to for the people of that culture. Especially when it comes to discussing spiritual beliefs, English is often clumsy, and a semantic minefield. This is especially problematic when anthropologists and people on the Internet approach Indigenous concepts with the mindset and worldview of a person who thinks in English. Those raised with English as their first, and often only fluent, language think differently than those raised to think in a language that has more precise words for their specific cultural/spiritual beliefs. Some things simply do not translate. So a cultural outsider may call a spirit being a "god" or "goddess", as that is their English-language-thinking framework and cultural assumption. But that word will probably name a completely different concept and reality to someone from the culture in question.
I think what's been apparent in a lot of the discussions referred to in this thread, and now taking place in this thread, is that we can never assume that an English word (or word in any language) is naming the same thing to everyone in the conversation. Finding a common language does not just mean being able to have basic conversational skills, it means being aware of the constant need for translation, and making sure the words mean the same things to everyone in the conversation.
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