Not legitimately Cherokee

[BlackWolf]

bls926 if your have people on the Baker Rolls, then I'm assuming you can't enroll either because of BQ or because you didn't enroll before a certain date? Somebody told me that kids have to enroll before a certain date with the EB otherwise they can't enroll.  I"ve heard conflicting stories on this issue. 

[taraverti]

What an interesting thread and valuable thread. Lots of good thoughts and wisdom here.

I fit the definition of PODIA. I often wonder what life was like when those decisions were being made. My family never hid being Indian, but they were assumed to be white by some (like census takers, for instance). My mother said growing up in Bennington Oklahoma, everyone in town was either Indian or mixed.

My great great grandmother said she was Cherokee but did not get on the Dawes because her husband drug his feet about getting her there to sign up. That's the point in history that made us legally not Cherokee. She is listed on every census I can find her on as white as are her siblings, yet two of her older sister's children were considered Indian enough to go to Carlisle. Their fathers were unquestionably white. (by the way BLS926, one of them was a German blacksmith. We might be cousins!)They were listed at Carlisle as Delaware. Just recently I found a Civil War Record with my great great grandfather's name on it, for the First Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, part of Stand Waite's Confederate troops. Family oral history says he was Black Dutch.

I don’t think there were dramatic decisions to be or not to be Indian. I think there were a lot of ordinary families making day to day decisions about what was best today for their survival. Move here, take this job, live in that community. From what I’ve seen of the census, a lot of extended families moved together. My family came from Virginia and Tennessee and ended up together in Missouri, then to Texas, then to Oklahoma. Hard to know in the midst of all of the moving what was going on. Impossible to know what they were thinking in terms of Indian identity.

What does that make me? A PODIA raised white, never feeling like I quite fit in, with that "calling" or void or whatever. Fortunately I was smart enough or observant enough or humble enough to not get pulled into the pretendian stuff. Partly because I have had beloved Indian family members by marriage suffer and die as a consequence of the aftereffects of the conquest, which leaves me just a little too bitter about reality to feed into the phony stuff.

I DO have a strong urge to make a positive difference somehow and I like the idea of allies.

Thanks for this thought provoking discussion

Nona

[BlackWolf]

I think that's a common mistake people have when researching their Indian roots.  People might have a grandparent or great grandparent who was 1/2 or 1/4 or less Indian, and they were listed as white on the birth or death certificate.   

[Rattlebone]

There's a huge difference between someone who's been raised as Cherokee, regardless of bq, and someone who learns they have a Cherokee ancestor thru a DNA test. If you need a DNA test, you aren't Indian.

The information and advice that BlackWolf gave you is about as good as it gets.

 True....


 So what tribe are you claiming to be from again???

Again? You've never asked me that question. Most people know who I am. It's no secret; I've posted about it here and elsewhere. But since you obviously only remember what you want or you think you're "calling me out" . . .

I am a Cherokee descendant. PODIA, maybe; just depends on what your definition of distant is. Three generations is not that far back. My ancestors left the Nation. My great-grandmother married a German blacksmith and became assimilated. I was raised white, as was my mother and grandfather. I have family on the Baker Roll. Do I think the Eastern Band should allow me to enroll? No, I don't. My ancestors made decisions and today I must live by those decisions.

 Actually I did ask you before over on Indianz but you ignored me I thought.

Well anyways, so what you are saying is that you are not NDN.

That's all I really wanted to know.

[bls926]

There's a huge difference between someone who's been raised as Cherokee, regardless of bq, and someone who learns they have a Cherokee ancestor thru a DNA test. If you need a DNA test, you aren't Indian.

The information and advice that BlackWolf gave you is about as good as it gets.

 True....


 So what tribe are you claiming to be from again???

Again? You've never asked me that question. Most people know who I am. It's no secret; I've posted about it here and elsewhere. But since you obviously only remember what you want or you think you're "calling me out" . . .

I am a Cherokee descendant. PODIA, maybe; just depends on what your definition of distant is. Three generations is not that far back. My ancestors left the Nation. My great-grandmother married a German blacksmith and became assimilated. I was raised white, as was my mother and grandfather. I have family on the Baker Roll. Do I think the Eastern Band should allow me to enroll? No, I don't. My ancestors made decisions and today I must live by those decisions.

 Actually I did ask you before over on Indianz but you ignored me I thought.

Well anyways, so what you are saying is that you are not NDN.

That's all I really wanted to know.

Yes, you did ask me over on Indianz.com, but edited your post and deleted your question, before I could answer. No biggie. I had my very own thread over there, when I first joined, years ago; you're not the first to ask. Most of the old-timers know who I am.

I'm not Indian and neither are you. I'm a Cherokee descendant and you're a Choctaw descendant. Only difference, I'm honest about it.

Rattle, I'm not going to let you derail this thread as you're prone to do. This will not turn into a pissing match.

[bls926]

bls926 if your have people on the Baker Rolls, then I'm assuming you can't enroll either because of BQ or because you didn't enroll before a certain date? Somebody told me that kids have to enroll before a certain date with the EB otherwise they can't enroll.  I"ve heard conflicting stories on this issue.  

To be enrolled with the Eastern Band, you must have a direct-lineal ancestor on the Baker Roll and have at least 1/16 bq. Anyone who was not enrolled when they were born, has one year after their 18th birthday to enroll. In my case, my family is not a direct line; my grandfather's mother was not enrolled. Aunts, uncles, and cousins don't count.

[BlackWolf]

I got it now bls926.  Thats a shame.  I've heard other similar cases such as yours.  Your still a documented Cherokee though.  As opposed to just people who say there are. 

[bls926]

Good post, Taraverti. Thank you for sharing. I especially liked what you had to say about having too much humility and respect to feed into the pretendian stuff.

My family comes from Western Virginia/Eastern Tennessee. I think they consciously tried to hide the fact that they had Cherokee blood. It wasn't something they talked about. My mother's family left Virginia and moved to southeastern Pennsylvania when she was a child. I grew up knowing Granddaddy's mother was Cherokee, but it wasn't really talked about much even then. I think the fear of discrimination had a lot to do with that. I remember as a child hearing them talk about when one of my uncles was driving tractor-trailer and couldn't get served at a diner in the south. The waitress wouldn't even talk to him. My uncle and another driver were sitting at the counter for a while, being ignored. The other guy asked the waitress if she could take their order. Her reply, "I'll take your order, but your friend needs to wait outside." I remember thinking, 'Uncle doesn't look black. He may be dark, but his hair is straight'. It never dawned on me back then that the waitress wouldn't serve him because he looked Indian. Back then, all people of color were discriminated against. I've never known that kind of discrimination.

[Rattlebone]

I'm not Indian and neither are you. I'm a Cherokee descendant and you're a Choctaw descendant. Only difference, I'm honest about it.

  How would you know this exactly if you don't know anything about me other then rumors your friends have told you?

 I will have to make myself perfectly clear here, I am not 3 generations removed from my people as you say you are. My family is active in the Choctaw community in Oklahoma. I could prove it to you on here if I so wished, but why should I as you don't like your personal info posted up either right??? Then of course I am going to have to answer to a few people as to why I am putting their names and what not on some website in an argument with some person I don't even know.

 Part of my family came here to California, hence I was born out here. However the bulk of my family still resides in South East Oklahoma, just south of McAlester a ways. My family resides in the same town that they have since we were marched over there.

 My family now, and has always been Choctaw. We have never hid it or denied it.  My still living grandfather was being mistaken for a Mexican and beaten for it when he first came to California from Oklahoma.

 Technically I am of two tribes, but I noticed you only named one here. I can of course prove that as well. However in that case I will concede that person whom I get that blood from, who was 5/8's Indian by blood, and died shortly before the year you were born, never enrolled. However they did raise my still living paternal grandmother whom was able to pass on things to me. Just like  their son who was my great grandfather did before he died at a young age of 98 years old.

One thing I am not is a descendant or a PODIA. What I am is a mixed blood who's family has maintained who we are, and always has, and always will.

 I do not lie about anything, but I do take an approach on how I see things based on experience, and what I have been taught by elders.




 

 

[Rattlebone]

I agree with that.   (The fact that White Cherokees don’t face the discrimination that full bloods face). And its true that most low BQ Cherokees don't know what it is to walk around with dark skin.  That’s pretty obvious. 


But with that said, skin color, eye color, and hair color was never a real big issue with us Cherokees.  It still isn't.  Its mostly non-Cherokee outsiders of our Tribe that always seem to bring it up.

That’s not to say there aren't differences amongst white Cherokees and the Full Blood community.  There clearly are.  I have people on both ends of that spectrum in my own immediate family.  And to me they are all Cherokees.  In my family it was always a non-issue.   

 One thing I notice is that the concept of BQ, and who is Indian or not based on it gets brought up more online then it does off the net.

 Well in fact I would say about 3/4's of the things I see getting argued about on here are not things that get spoken of as much off the net.

 Most of these type of conversations are ones I used to have with a favorite elder of mine before he passed. Typically we would talk about such things as we passed a cigarette back and forth lol.

 A lot of these type conversations are tough and complex ones, and seem to cause more arguement on here then off the net.

 I do know people that hate on those cause of BQ being low, or not enrolled. Of course in those cases the people acting in such ways are usually just nasty tempered individuals whom many in the community don't like because of their behavior.

 I know one family who treats their teenage niece very badly because she is 3/4's Mexican, and only 1/4 by blood from their tribe. Such stuff is sickening and heart breaking, especially when you see how it affects her.

 I have seen it mentioned on here by some that a person isn't really Indian if they are lower BQ, and not experiencing racism etc.

  To me that is a lame argument because being Indian is about being part of an Indian community and being recognized by them, knowing your culture etc. None of that has to do with if somebody is going through discrimination or not.

 Sure a full blood is going to have different experience in life then somebody who is 1/4, but that does not negate that fact that they are both Indian. To say such things would be like saying somebody can not say they are an American because of the color of their skin or ethnic make up. I know that analogy is not completely right on to the topic at hand, but im sure you get what I mean.

 People are going to have different life experiences because of BQ, where they live, money that have or don't, but to classify who is and is not Indian based on them is silly.

 Heck I know of people who are considered as Indian around here who may or may not be enrolled or know their culture, but they are seen as such because they participate and contribute in the NDN communities around here, and do so in a good way. That tells me that people online spend too much time on here trying to be identity police, and really don't participate in real NDN commuties off the net like they claim to.

 There is no one NDN experience anymore I don't think, and I can see the evidence of that every single day. I have friends of different BQ's, and some from south of the border. We all come together as friends because we have similar backgrounds, but not a one of us is exactly alike, and yet not a single one of us cares about that.